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1 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:23:48am

This ain’t 1916..Use of Chemical weapons needs to be addressed and answered.

2 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:25:56am

re: #1 A Man for all Seasons

This ain’t 1916..Use of Chemical weapons needs to be addressed and answered.

How?

3 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:27:05am

re: #2 allegro

And in a way that doesn’t help the militant fanatics me and Gus got into a Twitter argument yesterday.

4 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:29:27am
5 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:30:45am

re: #2 allegro

How?

I’m not a military man. I don’t really care how we kick his ass to give him pause to ever do a WMD attack in the future.

6 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:30:57am

This is nothing like the Bush administration’s rationale for the Iraq War - there’s very little doubt that chemical weapons have actually been used.

It looks like President Obama is going to try the “surgical strike” approach, to take out Syria’s ability to use chemical weapons. But the US’s history with surgical strikes like this is basically … they don’t work. Can anyone think of a single case where that kind of attack actually achieved its goal? Because I can’t, but I can think of several where it clearly didn’t, including Sudan and Iraq.

7 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:31:29am
8 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:32:00am
9 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:32:05am

How plausible is it that we could do a Bosnia option, of bombarding someone to the negotiating table.

10 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:32:25am

Why am I getting the feeling a decision has been made?

11 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:33:08am

re: #6 Charles Johnson

Operation Babylon?

12 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:34:04am
13 elizajane  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:34:12am

A few days ago I commented here that I thought we’d never really intervene in Syria.
It seems that I was wrong.
I’d be happier if I were more certain that our intervention would really do more good than harm.

14 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:34:37am

re: #6 Charles Johnson

Remember the mobile nuclear labs in Iraq? It was a bad time to own an ice cream truck cause there was a bomb programmed to take it out.

15 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:35:20am

There’s a momentum building.

16 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:35:28am

re: #9 ProTARDISLiberal

How plausible is it that we could do a Bosnia option, of bombarding someone to the negotiating table.

Assad’s military would need to be almost completely neutralized before he acknowledged that defeat was now staring right at him. That’s more than just “surgical strikes”. That would involve a sustained and large-scale aerial offensive.

OT, but right now, I’m listening to a Scorpions tribute band playing live at a nearby pub, and all I can say is, damn…..they’re perfect. You’d think you were really listening to the Scorpions. Impressive.

17 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:37:11am

re: #16 Dr Lizardo

Assad’s military would need to be almost completely neutralized before he acknowledged that defeat was now staring right now. That’s more than just “surgical strikes”. That would involve a sustained and large-scale aerial offensive.

OT, but right now, I’m listening to a Scorpions tribute band playing live at a nearby pub, and all I can say is, damn…..they’re perfect. You’d think you were really listening to the Scorpions. Impressive.

Awesome! request ‘Winds of Change’

18 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:37:28am

re: #13 elizajane

The only way that will happen is by using the attacks to force people to the negotiating table, like Bosnia in 1995.

Negotiations should included not only state actors, but heads of religious groups that are under threat of Al-Qaeda and ISIS. Off the top of my head, this includes the Pope. We need a government that has protection for minorities.

19 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:38:51am

re: #6 Charles Johnson

Instances that I can recall where surgical strikes can be considered successful:

1) Israeli raid on Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak in 1981;
2) Israeli strike against Syrian nuclear facility in 2007.

Do you want to include UAV strikes against terrorists/militants/Taliban in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, or Sudan?

Raids like Desert Fox or the Sudanese pharmaceutical facility are far less successful. Even the Shock and Awe was unsuccessful as far as it went - far fewer targets were eliminated than initial estimates suggested, and the following ground war led to an insurrection that continues to this day (the US is out of Iraq, but the insurrection continues against the current Iraqi government and the body count continues climbing there).

20 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:39:11am

re: #16 Dr Lizardo

When this song was out I seriously thought things would get better. What young dumb shithead I was. Nice song though.

Youtube Video

21 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:39:31am

re: #16 Dr Lizardo

OT, but right now, I’m listening to a Scorpions tribute band playing live at a nearby pub, and all I can say is, damn…..they’re perfect. You’d think you were really listening to the Scorpions. Impressive.

I hope the lead singer can do the accent correctly, heh.

Also, after some related Googling I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that The Scorpions’ lead singer is 65.

22 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:39:46am

re: #17 A Man for all Seasons

Awesome! request ‘Winds of Change’

Heh.

Next month, an Iron Maiden tribute band will be rolling in; I’ve seen them locally here before, and they’re superb.

I caught an AC/DC tribute band a couple of years ago in Brno; the kicker is the guitarist was a 17-year old girl named Blanka. Angus Young would’ve been pleased; she was his equal, no kidding or exaggeration.

23 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:40:37am

Obama is running 25 minutes late.

24 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:41:01am

re: #13 elizajane

I’d be happier if I were more certain that our intervention would really do more good than harm.

That’s where I keep going as well. Assad and his gang are protected. The bombs aren’t going to land on them - they’re going to land on the Syrian people who seem to have quite enough to worry about now. How many casualties are acceptable? What are the goals? What will be accomplished?

25 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:41:21am

re: #21 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

I hope the lead singer can do the accent correctly, heh.

Also, after some related Googling I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that The Scorpions’ lead singer is 65.

He’s got it down perfect. Vocally, an absolute dead ringer for Klaus Meine.

26 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:45:00am

2 minute warning

27 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:45:10am

NBC News Banner:

BREAKING: Obama says he has not made final decision on Syria strike; considering ‘limited’ act

28 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:45:42am

Is the Obama speech being televised? I can’t find a working livefeed but I’m seeing some tweeted quotes.

I’m on a tethered internet connection atm, so it’s hard for me to find info

29 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:46:26am
30 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:46:33am

re: #23 b.d.

Obama is running 25 minutes late.

On now.

31 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:46:58am
32 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:47:34am

re: #5 A Man for all Seasons

I’m not a military man. I don’t really care how we kick his ass to give him pause to ever do a WMD attack in the future.

The strongly-worded letter has failed. Perhaps we could taunt him.

33 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:47:52am

Grrr, all the damn camera clicking is making it almost impossible to hear Obama.

34 Bulworth  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:48:00am

re: #22 Dr Lizardo

I caught an AC/DC tribute band a couple of years ago in Brno; the kicker is the guitarist was a 17-year old girl named Blanka.

This I gotta see.

35 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:48:20am
36 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:48:46am

re: #23 b.d.

Obama is running 25 minutes late.

Presidents and generals are never late.

37 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:49:03am

Link to President’s announcement?

38 darthstar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:50:06am
39 darthstar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:51:29am
40 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:52:17am

re: #38 darthstar

My brother posts on FB that Obama is just like Bush, but with a different spelling. I don’t even know how to respond to that. A 60s radical who never grew up.

41 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:52:32am

Meanwhile, over at RedState, we have the headline “Syrian Rebels use Sarin. Obama silent.”

The 5-clown comedy act of RedState is letting its agenda show.

42 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:52:37am
43 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:54:44am

re: #38 darthstar

Obama’s not doing his job in preparing us for war. Back under GW Bush, we had several different justifications for going into Iraq per day, for weeks. That’s how it is done.

44 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:54:45am

President Obama says UN Security Council has shown incapacity to act in face of clear violation of international norms in Syria - @Reuters

Pres must feel fairly abandoned at this point, and being put in a position of having to act unilaterally in some capacity?

Shameful of the UN and NATO to wash their hands of this situation in the face of the evidence.

45 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:55:16am

Wolf Blitzer: “The President still hasn’t made a final decision. Of course, that could happen a few hours from now, a few days from now, or even a few weeks from now.”

Total fucking jabbering moron. Talking to hear himself speak. Man, am I getting sick of the way American media covers stories like this, with gibbering idiots desperately filling up airtime with whatever bullshit comes into their heads.

46 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:55:21am

re: #36 Decatur Deb

Nor are they early. They arrive precisely when they mean to.

47 Ace-o-aces  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:55:55am

re: #41 EPR-radar

Meanwhile, over at RedState, we have the headline “Syrian Rebels use Sarin. Obama silent.”

???? Do they have a source for this “fact” other than the voices in their heads?

48 Bulworth  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:57:42am

re: #41 EPR-radar

What is Erick son of Erick complaining about now?

49 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:58:04am

re: #47 Ace-o-aces

???? Do they have a source for this “fact” other than the voices in their heads?

Their source for this is here bbc.co.uk

It looks too ambiguous to me to justify such a categorical headline.

50 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:58:23am

Presidents necessarily have the power to launch military action in the face of sudden threats. This isn’t a great rush, so I’m getting fonder of my crack in the last thread. If this is important, call congress back into session to consider and vote on a declaration of war. Cut the crap, and let’s see who wants to rock ‘n roll.

51 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:58:56am
WASHINGTON, Aug 30 (Reuters) - The British government has asked the New York Times to destroy copies of documents leaked by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden related to the operations of the U.S. spy agency and its British partner, Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), people familiar with the matter said.

Link

52 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:59:49am

re: #47 Ace-o-aces

Well, it’s nice to know that Bashar Assad has found some time to post.

53 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 11:59:51am

re: #48 Bulworth

What is Erick son of Erick complaining about now?

Obama and the lack of a Christian theocracy in the US are the two main options. Today it is Obama.

54 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:00:00pm

Send in Seal Team Six to grab Assad, take him to international court to stand trial.

Would make a great action movie, starring Jonah Hill, GET HIM TO THE HAGUE.

55 Ace-o-aces  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:01:06pm

re: #49 EPR-radar

Their source for this is here bbc.co.uk

It looks too ambiguous to me to justify such a categorical headline.

From almost 4 months ago. Boy, those guys know how to find all the up-to-the-minute info don’t they.

56 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:02:06pm

I don’t see what good a limited strike does, other than as a symbolic showing of our concern and seriousness. And I don’t know that a heavy campaign with the goal of taking Assad out doesn’t do more harm than good. I think what we should be doing is consulting with as many different actors as possible to take every possible nonviolent action to help Syrians.

57 Political Atheist  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:02:09pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

This is nothing like the Bush administration’s rationale for the Iraq War - there’s very little doubt that chemical weapons have actually been used.

It looks like President Obama is going to try the “surgical strike” approach, to take out Syria’s ability to use chemical weapons. But the US’s history with surgical strikes like this is basically … they don’t work. Can anyone think of a single case where that kind of attack actually achieved its goal? Because I can’t, but I can think of several where it clearly didn’t, including Sudan and Iraq.

Do you put any credence to the idea the Saudis gave the rebels chem munitions and they mishandled or used them?

58 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:02:47pm

re: #54 Vicious Babushka

Send in Seal Team Six to grab Assad, take him to international court to stand trial.

Would make a great action movie, starring Jonah Hill, GET HIM TO THE HAGUE.

I’m having fantasies about Assad’s butler putting mustard gas in Assad’s bathwater.

59 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:03:59pm

re: #58 allegro

I’m having fantasies about Assad’s butler putting mustard gas in Assad’s bathwater.

Col. Mustard Gas did it in the Bathroom with a Syringe.

60 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:04:02pm

re: #43 EPR-radar

Obama’s not doing his job in preparing us for war. Back under GW Bush, we had several different justifications for going into Iraq per day, for weeks. That’s how it is done.

We should at least have a custom-tailored, rousing, vaguely jingoistic country power ballad by now. America can’t properly go to war without input from the Nashville Songwriters Association International. Tsk tsk.

61 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:04:14pm
62 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:04:49pm

re: #60 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

We should at least have a custom-tailored, rousing, vaguely jingoistic country power ballad by now. America can’t properly go to war without input from the Nashville Songwriters Association International. Tsk tsk.

Fire up the Ted Nugent signal!!

63 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:05:00pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

Wolf Blitzer: “The President still hasn’t made a final decision. Of course, that could happen a few hours from now, a few days from now, or even a few weeks from now.”

Total fucking jabbering moron. Talking to hear himself speak. Man, am I getting sick of the way American media covers stories like this, with gibbering idiots desperately filling up airtime with whatever bullshit comes into their heads.

64 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:05:18pm

re: #47 Ace-o-aces

???? Do they have a source for this “fact” other than the voices in their heads?

I would not be at all surprised if their source turned out to be Russia Today.

65 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:05:31pm

re: #60 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

We should at least have a custom-tailored, rousing, vaguely jingoistic country power ballad by now. America can’t properly go to war without input from the Nashville Songwriters Association International. Tsk tsk.

Got it.

Youtube Video

66 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:05:39pm

re: #61 NJDhockeyfan

Erdogan, considering your response to the protest over a park earlier, you have no room to talk. So, STFU.

67 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:05:56pm

re: #63 Gus

[Embedded content]

Of course they are; war is great for ratings.

68 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:06:05pm

re: #61 NJDhockeyfan

Is Erdogan volunteering for Turkey to do some heavy lifting here, or is he playing war games in his head with US assets as props?

69 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:07:34pm

re: #68 EPR-radar

Is Erdogan volunteering for Turkey to do some heavy lifting here, or is he playing war games in his head with US assets as props?

Turkey certainly has a lot more at stake than we do.

70 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:07:37pm
71 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:07:59pm

I can’t believe it, a wingnut meme that I wish I had made up first.
However: apples & oranges. The Confederacy was actually counting on France & Britain coming to their rescue. Sucked for them when Vicky opted out.

72 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:08:16pm

re: #64 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

I would not be at all surprised if their source turned out to be Russia Today.

The source is BBC, which is a better source than I expected. See #49 upthread. However, the RedState author’s reading of this old BBC article is suspect.

73 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:08:32pm

re: #68 EPR-radar

Is Erdogan volunteering for Turkey to do some heavy lifting here, or is he playing war games in his head with US assets as props?

Screw him. Turkey jacked up the Iraq clownshow by prohibiting the access of the 4th Div to it’s assigned northern entry.

74 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:08:53pm

The Rs weigh in…

House Speaker Boehner’s spokesman on Syria: ‘If the president believes this information makes a military response imperative, it is his responsibility to explain to Congress and the American people the objectives, strategy, and legal basis for any potential action’ - via @NBCNews

Actually, I think Pres Obama knows his responsibilities very well, and it’s a heavy burden the Rs aren’t helping.

75 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:09:02pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

This is nothing like the Bush administration’s rationale for the Iraq War - there’s very little doubt that chemical weapons have actually been used.

It looks like President Obama is going to try the “surgical strike” approach, to take out Syria’s ability to use chemical weapons. But the US’s history with surgical strikes like this is basically … they don’t work. Can anyone think of a single case where that kind of attack actually achieved its goal? Because I can’t, but I can think of several where it clearly didn’t, including Sudan and Iraq.

That depends on what the goal is. If the goal is to simply make room for the purchase of another hundred+ missiles at several million a pop, then all of those have been successful…

76 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:09:19pm

re: #57 Political Atheist

Do you put any credence to the idea the Saudis gave the rebels chem munitions and they mishandled or used them?

Not really. Can’t dismiss it entirely, but I don’t think it’s very likely.

77 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:10:26pm

re: #71 Vicious Babushka

Foreign Intervention during the Civil War

A Harper’s Weekly article from Saturday July 12, 1862 titled “The Ten Who Save the City” invokes a subject on the forefront of Americans’ minds 149 years ago this week. In a section titled Foreign Intervention Again, the debates in the English Parliament and addresses by the French Emperor were repeated and Americans were reminded of the ever present threat of European intervention into their Civil War.

Today, foreign intervention is not much discussed in Civil War Curriculum. Volumes have been written and on historic tours, such as the tour here at President Lincoln’s Cottage, the subject is addressed, but modern day visitors tend to forget the importance the threat played in the mind of the average 1860s American. “The Ten Who Save the City” reminded readers that, though the English and French were a serious threat to the Union Cause (in July 1862 they certainly were a threat), Americans had English Brothers who spoke against tyranny and wrote for justice. The article notes J.E. Cairnes, an Irishman who eventually taught at University College London, and his recently published book, The Slave Power, its Character, Career and Probable Designs: Being an Attempt to Explain the Real Issues Involved in the American Contest.

78 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:11:27pm

re: #73 Decatur Deb

Screw him. Turkey jacked up the Iraq clownshow by prohibiting the access of the 4th Div to it’s assigned northern entry.

Erdogan’s aim is to build a 21st century version of the Ottoman Empire. He doesn’t say it explicitly however.

79 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:11:46pm

re: #71 Vicious Babushka

And Morocco imprisoned a Confederate lout being a nuisance outside the US Embassy. And subsequently stood up to Britain and France over the imprisonment. They didn’t back down until the US told them to.

Russia was also pro-Union.

80 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:12:45pm

re: #74 Justanotherhuman

The Rs weigh in…

House Speaker Boehner’s spokesman on Syria: ‘If the president believes this information makes a military response imperative, it is his responsibility to explain to Congress and the American people the objectives, strategy, and legal basis for any potential action’ - via @NBCNews

Actually, I think Pres Obama knows his responsibilities very well, and it’s a heavy burden the Rs aren’t helping.

Note that Boehner’s not in any rush to call Congress back into session, however. No need to rush these things, after all, gotta address them at the right time…like when Congress is addressing a continuing resolution and the debt ceiling.

81 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:14:04pm

re: #80 Targetpractice

ZOMG OBAMA”S BOMBING SYRIA TO SAVE OBAMACARE /

82 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:14:20pm
83 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:14:24pm

re: #77 Kragar


Foreign Intervention during the Civil War

Rothschild urges his family to support the Confederacy.

I get some very weird sites linking to this page at my history archive.

84 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:14:24pm

re: #78 Dr Lizardo

Unfortately, he seems to despise the Tanzimat of Mahmud II, Abdulmecid I, and Abdulaziz.

He seems to prefer Abdulhamid II, who more-or-less killed the Ottoman Empire.

Erdogan isn’t fit to polish Suleiman’s toenails.

85 Bulworth  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:14:43pm

re: #81 Internet Tough Guy

Wag The Dog Wag The Dog Wag The Dog!!!11elventy

86 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:15:57pm

re: #80 Targetpractice

Note that Boehner’s not in any rush to call Congress back into session, however. No need to rush these things, after all, gotta address them at the right time…like when Congress is addressing a continuing resolution and the debt ceiling.

Of course Boehner’s not going to call Congress back into session for this. The GOP wants Obama to make the first move. Then, whatever Obama ends up doing will instantly be labeled as the worst possible choice by the RW noise machine and GOP leadership.

They literally have no other model for governance by now.

87 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:16:16pm
88 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:16:29pm

re: #81 Internet Tough Guy

ZOMG OBAMA”S BOMBING SYRIA TO SAVE OBAMACARE /

Nah.. It’s to distract us from NSA-gate which was to distract us from BENGHAZI!!, which was to distract us from Fast ‘n Furious, which was to distract us from his Birf Certifikat.

89 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:18:25pm

re: #84 ProTARDISLiberal

Unfortately, he seems to despise the Tanzimat of Mahmud II, Abdulmecid I, and Abdulaziz.

He seems to prefer Abdulhamid II, who more-or-less killed the Ottoman Empire.

Erdogan isn’t fit to polish Suleiman’s toenails.

Pretty much.

90 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:18:43pm

Maybe it is just me, but maybe the 91 British MPs could have taken a part in the vote instead of having their thumbs up their ass at the local pub, or whatever they were doing.

91 Political Atheist  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:19:04pm

re: #76 Charles Johnson

I see no reason to be any less skeptical of that report than any other. I see a lot of reason to be far less skeptical of US, Brit & UN reports than these scattered reports. I looked up Saudi and chem weapons. There is no good evidence.

Interesting that there is so much less cooperation than on Libya.

92 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:19:20pm

re: #86 EPR-radar

Of course Boehner’s not going to call Congress back into session for this. The GOP wants Obama to make the first move. Then, whatever Obama ends up doing will instantly be labeled as the worst possible choice by the RW noise machine and GOP leadership.

They literally have no other model for governance by now.

Yep, it’s the “Hurry Up And Wait” bit, demanding Obama do something to address this heinous crime…but only after he explains himself to Congress that’s in no rush to return to work. He could call them back into session to make his case, but they’ll just bitch that he’s “Rushing To War!!!”

93 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:20:35pm

re: #86 EPR-radar

Of course Boehner’s not going to call Congress back into session for this. The GOP wants Obama to make the first move. Then, whatever Obama ends up doing will instantly be labeled as the worst possible choice by the RW noise machine and GOP leadership.

They literally have no other model for governance by now.

They don’t “govern.” Its their model for politicking. They only want to ungovern.

94 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:20:35pm

re: #91 Political Atheist

The situation is less clear-cut, and most of the alternatives to Assad are pretty bad themselves.

Libya had a clear cut opposition, and the many of the problems in Libya now are a result of the MB’s and Qatar’s interference.

95 Political Atheist  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:21:24pm

One way some folks agenda is showing-Terribly skeptical of the US report and immediate acceptance and trumpeting of the Saudi chem rebel connection accusations.

96 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:21:27pm

re: #90 ProTARDISLiberal

Maybe it is just me, but maybe the 91 British MPs could have taken a part in the vote instead of having their thumbs up their ass at the local pub, or whatever they were doing.

Seems unlikely to have changed the outcome, unless only the absent conservative MPs were rousted out of their pubs.

97 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:21:37pm

re: #90 ProTARDISLiberal

Maybe it is just me, but maybe the 91 British MPs could have taken a part in the vote instead of having their thumbs up their ass at the local pub, or whatever they were doing.

[Embedded content]

Those 91 missing members were missing on purpose, no doubt.

98 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:21:47pm

re: #87 Gus

[Embedded content]

Labour certainly learned its lesson from Iraq. I wonder if anyone asked Tony Blair what he thinks? Or if anyone cares?

99 Lawrence Schmerel  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:24:09pm

I searched these comments for the words “Red Line.” I didn’t see anyone mention it.

Obama drew a “red line.” He didn’t have to do that, but he did. Syria crossed it. It doesn’t matter if surgical strikes would be “effective” (however you chose to define that). He can’t permit dictators like Assad to cross “red lines” that he makes on behalf of the United States. It’s too late.

100 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:27:22pm

What, this country won’t get their dander up about chemicals usage in Syria on civilians until they get dropped on us? After all, 9/11 is what made the US invasion into Iraq agreeable to most. Not many paid attention to the details and just went on beating the drums of war.

I’d bet most people aren’t even paying attention to all the particulars of the Syrian insanity and are just hearing the pundits talking about “war” and “options”. It doesn’t affect “us”, just some foreigners in a place most people can’t find on a map.

And no, I don’t think we should act unilaterally, and I don’t want war or more bloodshed, but how is it to be stopped? I just think those people matter as much as anyone else and sitting back and simply condemning Assad’s actions isn’t enough.

Plus, the pundits are pissing me off.

101 Bulworth  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:27:41pm

re: #93 aagcobb

If Obama called Congress to come back early from their vacation it would mean fine congresscritters like GOHMERT! would have to quit their side jobs subbing for RWNJ radio hosts. /

102 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:27:49pm

Swanson: Mark Twain Was ‘Demon-Possessed’

103 Bulworth  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:30:58pm

re: #102 Kragar

Swanson: Mark Twain Was ‘Demon-Possessed’

Hysterical and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.

104 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:31:16pm

re: #99 Lawrence Schmerel

I searched these comments for the words “Red Line.” I didn’t see anyone mention it.

Obama drew a “red line.” He didn’t have to do that, but he did. Syria crossed it. It doesn’t matter if surgical strikes would be “effective” (however you chose to define that). He can’t permit dictators like Assad to cross “red lines” that he makes on behalf of the United States. It’s too late.

Not a good reason to kill people.

105 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:31:48pm

re: #89 Dr Lizardo

In a very direct way, Abdulhamid II is responsible for the Armenian Genocide (among other things).

Including the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. Had Murad V stayed in power, I think the Ottomans would have survived into the present day.

106 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:32:02pm

re: #74 Justanotherhuman

The Rs weigh in…

House Speaker Boehner’s spokesman on Syria: ‘If the president believes this information makes a military response imperative, it is his responsibility to explain to Congress and the American people the objectives, strategy, and legal basis for any potential action’ - via @NBCNews

Actually, I think Pres Obama knows his responsibilities very well, and it’s a heavy burden the Rs aren’t helping.

And exit strategy, must have an exit strategy. I know we didn’t scream for one when starting the Iraq thingy, but all others after that one need an exit strategy. Of course, until we decide it is worth attacking without an exit strategy, but that is a president horse of a different color.

107 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:32:19pm

re: #102 Kragar

What in the ever-loving fuck was that?

108 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:32:40pm

re: #99 Lawrence Schmerel

I searched these comments for the words “Red Line.” I didn’t see anyone mention it.

Obama drew a “red line.” He didn’t have to do that, but he did. Syria crossed it. It doesn’t matter if surgical strikes would be “effective” (however you chose to define that). He can’t permit dictators like Assad to cross “red lines” that he makes on behalf of the United States. It’s too late.

Damned if he did, damned if he didn’t. Say nothing and he’s weak, and tacitly supporting Assad and his used of chemical weapons. Draw the Red Line, and he’s forced to respond if Assad crosses it.

The position of the Right in this is advantageous, but craven. Their ass isn’t on any line, and they get to criticize anything he does.

109 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:32:48pm

re: #107 ProTARDISLiberal

What in the ever-loving fuck was that?

Your brain on Evangelical Dominionism.

110 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:35:43pm

re: #109 Kragar

Your brain on Evangelical Dominionism.

Who the hell attacks Mark Twain in 2013? He might as well gone on a tirade against Grover Cleveland.

111 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:36:11pm

re: #99 Lawrence Schmerel

I searched these comments for the words “Red Line.” I didn’t see anyone mention it.

Obama drew a “red line.” He didn’t have to do that, but he did. Syria crossed it. It doesn’t matter if surgical strikes would be “effective” (however you chose to define that). He can’t permit dictators like Assad to cross “red lines” that he makes on behalf of the United States. It’s too late.

On the surface, that’s right, but if you peel off a layer, he doesn’t have to do something because of what he said, he has to do something because of what they did. And he knew that would be the case if they did what they did, before he said that.

112 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:37:01pm

re: #105 ProTARDISLiberal

In a very direct way, Abdulhamid II is responsible for the Armenian Genocide (among other things).

Including the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. Had Murad V stayed in power, I think the Ottomans would have survived into the present day.

Murad V is one of those great “what ifs” of history.

113 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:37:50pm

re: #104 aagcobb

Not a good reason to kill people.

Well, just let the slaughter continue in Syria, then? Over 1400 dead from chemical warfare, 100K from other means, and 2M who have sought refuge in other nearby countries like Lebanon, Jordan, etc.

Assad is spitting in the face of the Geneva Conventions and it doesn’t matter?

114 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:38:05pm

re: #90 ProTARDISLiberal

Maybe it is just me, but maybe the 91 British MPs could have taken a part in the vote instead of having their thumbs up their ass at the local pub, or whatever they were doing.

[Embedded content]

I didn’t see a count for Silly Party candidates. I wonder how Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F’tang-F’tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel voted.

115 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:38:25pm

re: #112 Dr Lizardo

I think if Murad V had survived, WWI would have been less bloody, but WWII would have been an even worse war.

116 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:38:57pm

re: #110 b.d.

Who the hell attacks Mark Twain in 2013? He might as well gone on a tirade against Grover Cleveland.

Give him some time to build up to it.

117 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:40:45pm

re: #110 b.d.

Who the hell attacks Mark Twain in 2013? He might as well gone on a tirade against Grover Cleveland.

It’s about time someone went after that fat, walrus-faced bastard!
//

118 Ming  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:42:03pm

re: #56 aagcobb

I don’t see what good a limited strike does, other than as a symbolic showing of our concern and seriousness. And I don’t know that a heavy campaign with the goal of taking Assad out doesn’t do more harm than good. I think what we should be doing is consulting with as many different actors as possible to take every possible nonviolent action to help Syrians.

If we absolutely must “do something”, how about humanitarian aid?

119 Bulworth  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:43:03pm

re: #110 b.d.

Who the hell attacks Mark Twain in 2013? He might as well gone on a tirade against Grover Cleveland.

People who are possessed by demons.

120 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:43:08pm

re: #113 Justanotherhuman

Well, just let the slaughter continue in Syria, then? Over 1400 dead from chemical warfare, 100K from other means, and 2M who have sought refuge in other nearby countries like Lebanon, Jordan, etc.

Assad is spitting in the face of the Geneva Conventions and it doesn’t matter?

How long is your list of batshit genocidal tyrants we should off?

121 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:43:09pm


Derp.

122 Lidane  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:43:21pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

Total fucking jabbering moron. Talking to hear himself speak.

Perfect summary of Wolf Blitzer’s career, would upding again.

123 Lidane  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:43:51pm

re: #48 Bulworth

What is Erick son of Erick complaining about now?

The fact that he’s a bitter asshole?

Oh wait. That’s a feature, not a bug.

124 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:44:17pm

re: #121 Gus

[Embedded content]


Derp.

Moron.

125 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:44:30pm
126 piratedan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:45:24pm

re: #121 Gus

great Dave, let me know how Occupy Syria goes, will you?

127 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:45:33pm

re: #120 Decatur Deb

How long is your list of batshit genocidal tyrants we should off?

Whoa! Is that what I suggested? I don’t think so.

128 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:47:08pm

re: #127 Justanotherhuman

Whoa! Is that what I suggested? I don’t think so.

He’s a fanatic engaged in a death struggle with fanatics. That’s how it ends.

129 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:47:42pm

re: #19 lawhawk

Instances that I can recall where surgical strikes can be considered successful:

1) Israeli raid on Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak in 1981;
2) Israeli strike against Syrian nuclear facility in 2007.

Do you want to include UAV strikes against terrorists/militants/Taliban in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, or Sudan?

Raids like Desert Fox or the Sudanese pharmaceutical facility are far less successful. Even the Shock and Awe was unsuccessful as far as it went - far fewer targets were eliminated than initial estimates suggested, and the following ground war led to an insurrection that continues to this day (the US is out of Iraq, but the insurrection continues against the current Iraqi government and the body count continues climbing there).

Bin Laden

130 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:49:53pm

re: #124 Kragar

Moron.

131 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:51:29pm
132 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:54:21pm

re: #32 Decatur Deb

and if he doesn’t stop he shall be taunted a second time!

133 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:56:44pm

I guess he is the boss now.

Rand Paul: Boehner Will Be Overthrown If He Passes Senate Immigration Bill

livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com

Rand Paul and his pals are just fucking dangerous demagogues. This guy should never get anywhere close to the WH.

134 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:57:06pm

You know, when I ask a teammate to give me a hand, I can understand if they say they can’t help. That is understandable, I can adjust my schedule and notify the right people to make sure things run smoothly.

What pisses me off is when they tell me they would be glad to lend a hand, they tell me they did the work, and I come in today and find they didn’t fucking do it.

135 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:59:26pm

re: #128 Decatur Deb

Hey Deb, how far away are you from Birmingham? There is a Baby Naming Ceremony tomorrow.

136 Quicklund  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 12:59:58pm

OK. Now we have the case laid out before us.

* Syria has chem weapons.

* Syrian chem weapons experts spent the three days before the attack preparing something at Syria’s chem weapons facility.

* Rocket launches and artillery fire was observed coming from Syrian military units.

* Starting about 90 minutes later, thousands of civilians affected by nerve agent started arriving at hospitals, and videos began appearing on the internet.

* Communications intercepts reveal ranking Syrian officials discussing a chem weapons attack.

* The opposition has neither the chem weapons, the delivery rockets, the ability to coordinate large bombardments over 12 different target areas, nor the ability to fake the number of videos and intel observations made during and after the attacdk

Absent a US government-wide conspiracy to fake all this just so we can get involved in a war no one wants to get involved in in the first place, the conclusion is this :

* The Syrian regime launched a chem weapons attack on its own civilians.

We can argue about what the correct response should be, but let’s remove the wool from our eyes. Assad’s team did the deed.

137 FurryNavyDude  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:01:07pm

I do not doubt that there is strong evidence that Assad used chemical weapons on his own people. That said, any attack by the US, (short of taking out all of Assad’s air defenses and seriously targeting almost all of his air capable assets), is pretty pointless and won’t have any real impact on this conflict.

The type of mission that would accomplish something meaningful would basically be a full blown no-fly zone and require major and unceasing air operations, (carrier based Superhornets supported by B-2s from the states), for many, many months. This would present significant risk to military personnel and Obama better let congress weigh in, (if this is truly the type of intervention being considered). This would be a much more significant and unilateral operation that the one we carried out in Libya. It also gives him political cover as well if it goes completely sideways.

Lobbing a few cruise missiles at them from a couple of subs won’t have any impact on this conflict. It might serve as a symbolic act, I guess. It just might also serve to get Obama out from the corner he is in at the moment. Otherwise, it will do nothing to shorten this conflict. In fact, there is every possibility that any operation short of what I have outlined above could actually extend the conflict. There is much data out there about 3rd party interventions of this type actually extending conflicts, instead of shortening them.

Sadly, there are almost no good options at this point.

138 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:02:04pm

re: #134 Kragar

You know, when I ask a teammate to give me a hand, I can understand if they say they can’t help. That is understandable, I can adjust my schedule and notify the right people to make sure things run smoothly.

What pisses me off is when they tell me they would be glad to lend a hand, they tell me they did the work, and I come in today and find they didn’t fucking do it.

I used to work with a Postdoc who VOLUNTEERED to help me by taking down gels that needed to run another hour past when I wanted to go home.

The first time, he said, “Just leave me a note!” I left him a note.

The next morning I come in, the gel is still running.

The second time, he said, “I’ll do it! Really!! Just leave the note where I can see it!!” I hung the note from a sprinkler head directly over his bench, at his eye level, with another piece of tape running to the bench to anchor it. He COULD NOT MISS IT. He had to duck around it to work.

The next morning I come in, the gel is still running. He’d gotten so used to ducking around it that he forgot about it.

I never listened to him again, when he offered to do stuff.

139 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:02:05pm
140 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:03:12pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

what better way to hide what you are doing.

141 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:04:48pm

re: #113 Justanotherhuman

Well, just let the slaughter continue in Syria, then? Over 1400 dead from chemical warfare, 100K from other means, and 2M who have sought refuge in other nearby countries like Lebanon, Jordan, etc.

Assad is spitting in the face of the Geneva Conventions and it doesn’t matter?

Of course it matters. We should take every nonviolent and diplomatic action we can to help. But wading into a bloodbath to kill more people rarely helps.

142 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:04:51pm

re: #131 Gus

[Embedded content]

Bollocks. usvsth3m.com

143 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:05:29pm

re: #135 Vicious Babushka

Hey Deb, how far away are you from Birmingham? There is a Baby Naming Ceremony tomorrow.

Southest end of the state—we call everyone north of the Pea River ‘Yankees’.

144 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:06:47pm

re: #138 GeneJockey

Its not even that she just didn’t do it. She half assed it. We had 40 servers that needed to be rebooted before I could start my tasks today. So far about 1/3 of them weren’t touched, and this was after she sent out a notice to the team saying she had rebooted all of them last night.

145 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:08:22pm

re: #135 Vicious Babushka

Hey Deb, how far away are you from Birmingham? There is a Baby Naming Ceremony tomorrow.

I’m voting for “Viscious Bubula”.

146 A Mom Anon  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:08:35pm

Why is it up to the US to fix what’s broken in Syria? I’m serious, I know it’s a stupid question, but why is this now our problem?

I get it, Assad is doing hideous disgusting things to his people. So are dictators and warlords all over Africa, China isn’t exactly a bastion of human rights, god knows Russia isn’t, North Koreans are starving literally to death while a select few have little things like running water and electricity, the list is huge. Why is it that chemical weapons are the last straw for people? Shouldn’t the last straw have been awhile ago?

This isn’t a popular way of thinking I guess, but when I see money for poor and disabled people being cut, when hard working people are barely making it here, when our educational system is in shambles, our infrastructure is falling apart literally and we barely have our own house in order, who the hell are we to go in and try to do anything to “fix” someone else’s country? The money spent on wars is killing our country, disintegrating it from the inside out, and it has to stop somewhere. I am not without compassion for the people in need and suffering, but aren’t there other countries who can step up? Doesn’t Syria have any allies who can exert pressure on them to stop this madness?

I just think we’ve got a lot of work that needs doing here that won’t get done if we end up in another war.

147 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:08:54pm

re: #110 b.d.

Who the hell attacks Mark Twain in 2013? He might as well gone on a tirade against Grover Cleveland.

Might be ginning up for a good ol’ fashioned book burning.

148 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:10:48pm

re: #144 Kragar

Its not even that she just didn’t do it. She half assed it. We had 40 servers that needed to be rebooted before I could start my tasks today. So far about 1/3 of them weren’t touched, and this was after she sent out a notice to the team saying she had rebooted all of them last night.

Time for a sternly-worded letter!
//

So, she not only half-assed it, she just plain out-ant-out lied about it.

149 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:10:54pm

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Southest end of the state—we call everyone north of the Pea River ‘Yankees’.

So Huntsville must be DamnYankeeland to y’all.

They’re staying in Birmingham for at least until October, because that’s where her parents are. The Grand Baby Naming Ceremony will be tomorrow at Chabad of Birmingham (and I am sure there will be some awesome food & beverages).

I won’t know the names until after Shabbat.

150 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:11:32pm

Assad joins chorus of people wanting the US to not intervene in Syria.

151 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:12:34pm

re: #148 GeneJockey

Time for a sternly-worded letter!
//

So, she not only half-assed it, she just plain out-ant-out lied about it.

Just another reason I’m hunting for a new job.

152 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:13:08pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Not good. It’s an opposition stronghold, and Pres Obama fears there will be chemical attacks there, also.

153 aagcobb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:13:32pm

re: #144 Kragar

Its not even that she just didn’t do it. She half assed it. We had 40 servers that needed to be rebooted before I could start my tasks today. So far about 1/3 of them weren’t touched, and this was after she sent out a notice to the team saying she had rebooted all of them last night.

Is she Amelia Bedelia? Perhaps they all now have boots on.

154 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:14:36pm

re: #136 Quicklund

Hey guys, look at this. Quicklund thinks logic and reason are still valid modes of thought in 2013. Isn’t that just adorable?

155 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:15:05pm
156 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:15:30pm

re: #140 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

what better way to hide what you are doing.

Like setting up human shields.

157 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:16:16pm

re: #146 A Mom Anon

Why is it up to the US to fix what’s broken in Syria? I’m serious, I know it’s a stupid question, but why is this now our problem?

The US cannot deny that it is a ‘world leader’, however you define it. We can do something about it, not every country can say that.

I think it would be irresponsible to be able to do something and yet choose to do nothing.

That doesn’t mean I know what to do. But I’m on the side of not doing nothing.

158 SchadenBoner  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:16:35pm

re: #147 Amory Blaine

Huck Finn Atheist

Is it even worth pointing out that the dramatic climax of the book is the point where Huck chooses damnation rather than let N. Jim stay locked up?

What fear has the atheist of hellfire?

159 piratedan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:16:41pm

re: #155 Gus

HIS secrets! jaysus fecking christ, the balls of that statement makes me wish Chris was the recipient of a genial hack that listed his name and address and personal information, his income and his tax return and SSN just for fecking grins

160 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:16:59pm

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

Like setting up human shields.

[Embedded content]

They have a very different definition for the term “Bomb Shelter” over there.

161 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:17:09pm

re: #155 Gus

[Embedded content]

He’s really trying to lower his ratings, it’s he?

162 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:18:33pm

re: #159 piratedan

HIS secrets! jaysus fecking christ, the balls of that statement makes me wish Chris was the recipient of a genial hack that listed his name and address and personal information, his income and his tax return and SSN just for fecking grins

I think that’s a parody Twitter.

163 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:18:57pm

re: #159 piratedan

HIS secrets! jaysus fecking christ, the balls of that statement makes me wish Chris was the recipient of a genial hack that listed his name and address and personal information, his income and his tax return and SSN just for fecking grins

Parody account.

164 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:18:58pm

re: #159 piratedan

HIS secrets! jaysus fecking christ, the balls of that statement makes me wish Chris was the recipient of a genial hack that listed his name and address and personal information, his income and his tax return and SSN just for fecking grins

re: #161 NJDhockeyfan

He’s really trying to lower his ratings, it’s he?

Does that look like Chris Hayes’s twitter account? I don’t think so.

165 piratedan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:19:39pm

re: #162 Justanotherhuman

ty for that, although I do have to say with the amount of prime time fellation CH has bestowed on GG, I completely fell for it

166 Ming  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:21:49pm

re: #110 b.d.

Who the hell attacks Mark Twain in 2013? He might as well gone on a tirade against Grover Cleveland.

Reminds me of when Rand Paul assured us that he admires Abraham Lincoln, and he’s not a big fan of John Wilkes Booth.

167 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:22:57pm

re: #158 SchadenBoner

Is it even worth pointing out that the dramatic climax of the book is the point where Huck chooses to seek damnation rather than let N. Jim stay locked up?

What fear has the atheist of hellfire?

Perhaps the real reason the so-con nutjobs would like to see Huckleberry Finn removed from schools and libraries is its anti-slavery message and the fact that Jim is portrayed as a human being.

168 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:24:24pm

re: #146 A Mom Anon

Why is it up to the US to fix what’s broken in Syria? I’m serious, I know it’s a stupid question, but why is this now our problem?

Good question, and not one to which I have a satisfactory answer, even to myself.

The ‘International Community’ was so horrified by the poison gas attacks in WWI that they decided that chemical weapons were beyond the pale, so it’s up to the International Community to deal with those who use them.

But, the International Community consists of a whole bunch of countries that have the luxury of not being the biggest power on Earth. So, they vote in the UN for ‘more study’ or ‘economic sanctions’, or Russia or China vetoes it, because they can and because doing so puts the problem squarely in OUR lap.

So, what is OUR responsibility? I’m not sure. I’d say our responsibility consists of “leading”, by which I mean we go to the UN or NATO, we make the best case we possibly can for the rason to do something and what should be done, and we accept the point role.

But if the UN and NATO balk, do we have any responsibility to go it alone? I don’t know. I really don’t. On the one hand, it’s true that if we let it slide THIS time, other bad actors have little reason to fear any response if they do the same. On the other, if we DO decide we MUST do SOMETHING, do we side with the Islamists? Do we make a serious attempt to cripple Syria’s military? Or do we drop a few bombs, declare victory, and go home?

No good options. They couldn’t pay me enough to take that job.

169 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:24:53pm

While you’re at it, are you going to tell me who you sell my personal information to, also?

Microsoft pledges to move forward with NSA surveillance lawsuit

latimes.com

170 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:25:02pm

re: #165 piratedan

ty for that, although I do have say with the amount of prime time fellation CH has bestowed on GG, I completely fell for it

I thought the muffins kinda gave it away. I see GG more into cupcakes.

171 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:25:10pm

Harvey: Why Are Gay People So Afraid To Know The Truth?

Linda Harvey doesn’t understand why gay people won’t simply admit that they are lying about their sexual orientation and choose to be straight. “The main reason people now believe some are born homosexual is because those who are currently committed to and want to continue this conduct say so,” the Mission America host lamented.

“If the person really wants the truth” about why he or she is gay, Harvey said, they would realize it is almost related to tragedies “from child molestation to other traumatic childhood experiences in childhood to neglectful, disordered or abusive parents.”

“The question becomes: do we want to know the truth?” Harvey wondered. “Sometimes people hold onto what they know even if it is uncomfortable, even if they realize they could probably do something different because change can be a lot of work, change can mean confessing sin, change can mean your circumstances might be shaken up.”

Linda Harvey is an evil lying bitch.

172 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:25:36pm

re: #136 Quicklund

OK. Now we have the case laid out before us.

* Syria has chem weapons.

Yep.

* Syrian chem weapons experts spent the three days before the attack preparing something at Syria’s chem weapons facility.

I would imagine that chem weapon experts would be working in chem weapon facilities on any given week…. so what?

* Rocket launches and artillery fire was observed coming from Syrian military units.

Yep, nothing new.

* Starting about 90 minutes later, thousands of civilians affected by nerve agent started arriving at hospitals, and videos began appearing on the internet.

This is no evidence that the rockets were a source of the ‘nerve agent’ if that’s even what caused the deaths.

* Communications intercepts reveal ranking Syrian officials discussing a chem weapons attack.

And what, exactly, was said in these intercepts?
How easy would it be for someone to fake these conversations?

* The opposition has neither the chem weapons, the delivery rockets, the ability to coordinate large bombardments over 12 different target areas, nor the ability to fake the number of videos and intel observations made during and after the attack

Even if I grant you that the ‘opposition’ (IE Al Qaeda + affiliated groups) couldn’t do every one of those things, they could have easily faked the vids, the communications, etc.

Also, it’s quite possible that they have chem weapons. They’ve overrun several military complexes. There’s no reason to be 100% certain that they haven’t come across chem shells.

Absent a US government-wide conspiracy to fake all this just so we can get involved in a war no one wants to get involved in in the first place, the conclusion is this :

* The Syrian regime launched a chem weapons attack on its own civilians.

How about a much smaller conspiracy: Someone with very deep pockets and connections bribes the commander of a chem unit to launch the attack in order to pull us into the war. What did Assad have to gain by doing this? It doesn’t make sense. The motives are all on the side of the ‘opposition’ and their supporters.

We can argue about what the correct response should be, but let’s remove the wool from our eyes. Assad’s team did the deed.

Sorry, you didn’t prove that someone on Assad’s side had anything to do with this.

I may change my mind after I see the UN report, but nothing has been proven thus far.

173 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:28:09pm
I may change my mind after I see the UN report,

lol

174 A Mom Anon  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:29:37pm

I’m in over my head here, and another idiotic crisis has just stuck it’s head in my front door, so I shall take my leave. Later lizards.

175 Lidane  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:30:54pm

Inevitable:

176 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:31:35pm

re: #174 A Mom Anon

I’m in over my head here, and another idiotic crisis has just stuck it’s head in my front door, so I shall take my leave. Later lizards.

Good luck with the crisis.

Your question: Why is it up to the US to fix what is broken in Syria?

is not a stupid question at all.

177 piratedan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:31:49pm

re: #175 Lidane

yeah, it’s really more of a pennant than a flag….. maroon

178 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:32:52pm
179 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:33:51pm

re: #173 Internet Tough Guy

lol

Why is that funny. They’re taking actual samples to see if chem weapons were even used, and if so, what they were.
They’re also conducting interviews and I imagine visiting/testing victims.

Sorry if I give more credence to this process than to watching youtube videos that just ‘couldn’t be faked’.

180 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:35:17pm
181 darthstar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:37:42pm

I knew Wolf could walk on water.

182 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:39:24pm

re: #181 darthstar

I knew Wolf could walk on water.

Now they need to make a model of Tokyo for Wolf to destroy.

183 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:41:12pm

re: #182 Kragar

Now they need to make a model of Tokyo for Wolf to destroy.

Wolfzilla!

184 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:41:31pm

Dkos rec list: Kerry’s speech was unconvincing and inaccurate

The USA has deployed an atomic bomb twice in Japan. The USA deployed Agent Orange and napalm in Viet Nam. The USA has deployed depleted uranium bombs in Iraq which have caused cancer and horrific birth defects, and white phosphorous, which burned the skin off children to the bone, an abhorrently painful way to die.

Now the USA is going to pre-empt the UN chemical weapons investigation, which they have disparaged just like they dissed Hans Blix, who was right that there were no WMDs in Iraq, and bomb Syria.

The propagandists are trying to steer us away from noticing the similarities between how they hyped the Iraq Invasion and how they are now hyping this imminent War with Syria, which they will wage with or without the consent of the US Congress, which would clearly be illegal.

The warmongering PTB called Iraq, a “cake walk,” and now call this war with Syria, a “limited strike.”

Some of the same special interests are egging on this war with Syria just as they egged on the war with Iraq, and some of the same politicians are for this war in Syria, before they will be against it, but the American people are no longer naive.

Only 9% of Americans support bombing Syria.

The UK voted against bombing Syria.

The fact that the warmongers are steam rolling this war before the UN reports back on their investigation and that the US intimidated the UN not to investigate speaks volumes on the weakness of their case.

Heh

185 Kragar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:42:22pm

re: #183 NJDhockeyfan

Wolfzilla!

He can generate electricity with his beard and shoot lightning!

186 piratedan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:43:06pm

re: #181 darthstar

it just means that he’s 85% duck

187 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:43:07pm

re: #172 jc717

Yep.

I would imagine that chem weapon experts would be working in chem weapon facilities on any given week…. so what?

Yep, nothing new.

This is no evidence that the rockets were a source of the ‘nerve agent’ if that’s even what caused the deaths.

And what, exactly, was said in these intercepts?
How easy would it be for someone to fake these conversations?

Even if I grant you that the ‘opposition’ (IE Al Qaeda + affiliated groups) couldn’t do every one of those things, they could have easily faked the vids, the communications, etc.

Also, it’s quite possible that they have chem weapons. They’ve overrun several military complexes. There’s no reason to be 100% certain that they haven’t come across chem shells.

How about a much smaller conspiracy: Someone with very deep pockets and connections bribes the commander of a chem unit to launch the attack in order to pull us into the war. What did Assad have to gain by doing this? It doesn’t make sense. The motives are all on the side of the ‘opposition’ and their supporters.

Sorry, you didn’t prove that someone on Assad’s side had anything to do with this.

I may change my mind after I see the UN report, but nothing has been proven thus far.

Dude, starting with your conclusion then applying both confirmation bias and disconformation bias to prove it isn’t how things are done.

You go where the evidence leads, you don’t lead the evidence to your target.

188 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:44:34pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Dkos rec list: Kerry’s speech was unconvincing and inaccurate

Heh

I almost missed this wink to the Military Industrial Complex and the Jewish Lobby….

Sadly, too many of our Congress critters are afraid of and beholden to special interest lobbies many of whom work for global companies and foreign nations, not the American people, who they are supposed to serve.

189 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:45:29pm

re: #176 EPR-radar

Good luck with the crisis.

Your question: Why is it up to the US to fix what is broken in Syria?

is not a stupid question at all.

Aren’t we all in over our heads here? We all have the right to our opinions, hopefully informed, though.

And I always learn something, which is why I’m here.

190 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:45:47pm

re: #180 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Is that the start of the Blitzer Blitzkrieg dance-a-thon we’re seeing?

191 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:45:51pm

re: #178 Charles Johnson

You require honesty from a journalist? Fascist! Obamabot! Croc-wearer!

192 Lidane  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:46:39pm

*headdesk*

Youtube Video

193 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:46:55pm

We don’t all have to agree, the difference of opinions and revealing of new facts are how it’s done.

194 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:47:12pm

re: #187 b_sharp

Dude, starting with your conclusion then applying both confirmation bias and disconformation bias to prove it isn’t how things are done.

You go where the evidence leads, you don’t lead the evidence to your target.

But if you do that, you can’t depend on it ending up where you want it!
//

195 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:47:38pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

Dkos rec list: Kerry’s speech was unconvincing and inaccurate

How predictably sad.

196 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:47:46pm

re: #193 Amory Blaine

We don’t all have to agree, the difference of opinions and revealing of new facts are how it’s done.

“Olsen Johnson is right!”

197 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:48:08pm

re: #159 piratedan

HIS secrets! jaysus fecking christ, the balls of that statement makes me wish Chris was the recipient of a genial hack that listed his name and address and personal information, his income and his tax return and SSN just for fecking grins

It’s a parody acct.

198 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:49:01pm

re: #195 b.d.

How predictably sad.

Looks like things are getting serious….
I just took down my poster

199 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:49:10pm

Chances are, the course of action that pisses everyone off is probably the right one.

200 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:49:12pm

In my completely unfounded speculative imagination, Obama is looking for excuses not to get involved while appearing likely to do so. Indiscriminate death and horrific misery aside, Assad’s butthole is puckered. Hezbollah is wasting resources. Iran, Russia, and China are looking like ass hats internationally to defend the indefensible. Al Qaeda is fighting against an enemy of the West, wasting their own resources. Israel can’t be too displeased with Syria eating itself, too. So, there must be a bit of an urge to just make some popcorn and sit back.

For some reason, it pisses me off more than usual to realize that Congress is on vacation during all this. Not that they could or would contribute anything positive, but still, it galls me. Not sure exactly why.

201 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:50:15pm

re: #199 Amory Blaine

Chances are, the course of action that pisses everyone off is probably the right one.

Oh, I dunno. If Obama shot missiles at London, everyone would be pissed off, and I’m pretty sure that’s not the right course.
//

202 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:50:54pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

Looks like things are getting serious….
I just took down my poster

What, they thought it was a popularity contest? Obviously not too informed about what a President does, although we know he doesn’t give out ponies.

203 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:50:55pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

OMG THE RISK!

204 Lidane  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:51:12pm
205 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:51:25pm

re: #200 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

In my completely unfounded speculative imagination, Obama is looking for excuses not to get involved while appearing likely to do so. Indiscriminate death and horrific misery aside,Assad’s butthole is puckered. Hezbollah is wasting resources. Iran, Russia, and China are looking like ass hats internationally to defend the indefensible. Al Qaeda is fighting against an enemy of the West, wasting their own resources. Israel can’t be too displeased with Syria eating itself, too.

For some reason, it pisses me off more than usual to realize that Congress is on vacation during all this. Not that they could or would contribute anything positive, but still, it galls me. Not sure exactly why.

This. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more reluctant ‘March To War’.

206 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:52:10pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

He looks pretty hairy to be a teenage girl.

207 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:52:25pm

re: #190 b_sharp

Is that the start of the Blitzer Blitzkrieg dance-a-thon we’re seeing?

Wolf Twerk Contest

208 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:53:48pm

re: #168 GeneJockey

As much compassion as I feel for the Syrian people (and other people in the world who are subjected to the horrors of their governments), I’m pretty much at the point where I think we just have to say no to a continuing role as the world’s police force. This IS an international issue. Full stop.

If the UN and NATO won’t step up, and other leading nations say no to intervention, please justify why it becomes by default the responsibility of the US? Because the US is *a* world leader? We aren’t the only ones. And as long as we keep taking that policing role on, along with the expense and blood, why should anyone else come to the fore? They don’t have to as long as the US will over and over again.

It’s so easy to holler “ain’t it awful, won’t somebody DO something!” But do what? Start bombing the shit out of another mid-eastern country without international support so they can point to the US and say “there they go again, invading another country” after dissing any responsibility themselves to assist in stopping the horror?

This is some sickening shit on every level.

209 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:55:13pm

re: #187 b_sharp

Dude, starting with your conclusion then applying both confirmation bias and disconformation bias to prove it isn’t how things are done.

You go where the evidence leads, you don’t lead the evidence to your target.

Just pointing out that the evidence, as presented, is weak and doesn’t prove things as conclusively as you seem to believe.

210 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:55:15pm

re: #202 Justanotherhuman
I just took down my poster

What, they thought it was a popularity contest? Obviously not too informed about what a President does, although we know he doesn’t give out ponies.

Oh my, that is almost as sad a read as “I just took off my Tebow jersey”

211 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 1:57:07pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

Looks like things are getting serious….
I just took down my poster

That’s just fuckn’ twee. Bet it’s in the bottom of a drawer with Menudo and ABBA.

212 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:00:08pm

re: #168 GeneJockey

The reason it ends up being our responsibility is because we are the Superpower.

This has happened before, with both the United Kingdom and the Ottoman Empire. Most people overlook how much the Ottoman Empire got involved in the Protestant Reformation period, and later the 30 Years War.

It’s a historical pattern that is hard to throw off.

213 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:00:46pm

re: #208 allegro

These things are where hopeful ventures like the League of Nations and the United Nations fail, and the hopes and dreams of those who established them - that they would stop things just like this - wither and die.

214 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:01:44pm

re: #209 jc717

Just pointing out that the evidence, as presented, is weak and doesn’t prove things as conclusively as you seem to believe.

You’re following the age old practice creationists have followed religiously - take each line of evidence separately and if any possibility other than the one most likely, given all the pieces of evidence taken in context with each other, exists, reject the whole thing.

215 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:03:00pm

Off to get the wife.

Remember that you are lizards, not snapping turtles.

216 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:03:05pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

Looks like things are getting serious….
<em>re: <a href=”/showc/198/10144651” class=”rep”>#198</a> Killgore Trout</em>

I just took down my posterdailykos.com>dailykos.com>

And the people recommending that post are the same people that would have given him 987 different types of hell yesterday for having it up at all.

217 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:03:34pm

re: #211 Decatur Deb

That’s just fuckn’ twee. Bet it’s in the bottom of a drawer with Menudo and ABBA.

lol

218 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:04:55pm

re: #213 GeneJockey

When you have governments like Russia and China, that means things get gummed up.

But that doesn’t mean we stop trying. As much as it doesn’t look it, the world is more peaceful than it was before WWII.

219 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:06:09pm

re: #218 ProTARDISLiberal

When you have governments like Russia and China, that means things get gummed up.

But that doesn’t mean we stop trying. As much as it doesn’t look it, the world is more peaceful than it was before WWII.

Mussolini used gas in Abyssinia. We did the SW Letter.

220 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:09:08pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

Looks like things are getting serious….
I just took down my poster

Obama has nothing better to do than kill people…got it.

I’d still vote for him, against any likely opponent.

I’d still knock doors and raise money for him, given the alternative.

But for once I had something better than the lesser of two evils, and it hurts to lose that.

Killing a bunch of people because you can’t think of anything better to do does not warrant my support, even through a mute and faded poster.

Mark E. Miller // Kalamazoo Township Trustee // MI 6th District Democratic Chair

by memiller

221 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:09:15pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

This is nothing like the Bush administration’s rationale for the Iraq War - there’s very little doubt that chemical weapons have actually been used.

It looks like President Obama is going to try the “surgical strike” approach, to take out Syria’s ability to use chemical weapons. But the US’s history with surgical strikes like this is basically … they don’t work. Can anyone think of a single case where that kind of attack actually achieved its goal? Because I can’t, but I can think of several where it clearly didn’t, including Sudan and Iraq.

It won’t work in this case either. Assuming it was the Assad regime that did this, basically giving him a week or more gives him the opportunity to move things around. We will be blasting empty buildings etc.

I can’t help but be skeptical about this whole thing. Sure, chemicals were used, but who exactly used them? Could the foreign Jihadists that have been training in Syria for decades gotten their hands on some stuff over the past year or so while this mess has been going on? What better way to help themselves than to make it appear as if Assad did this. They can sit back and relax as we bomb the Assad military infrastructure (if we get lucky) for them while they take over in a power vacuum. I don’t think that’s too Alex Jonesy of me at all.

222 Lidane  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:10:11pm

Nerdy mental health break:


That should be fun. I expect Rocket to have issues with tigers, Marvel.

223 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:10:32pm

If Putin puts his shirt on it’s a bad sign.

224 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:11:43pm

The evidence for the Syria regime having carried out chemical attacks looks pretty convincing to me.

Having said that, I don’t blame anyone for having major reservations at the idea of getting involved in another Middle Eastern country’s disputes. I have deep misgivings myself, and I really hope it doesn’t have to come to military action.

It’s also disturbing, though, that the long-standing international conventions about chemical weapons seem to be falling apart. That can’t end well.

225 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:12:19pm

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

Like setting up human shields.

[Embedded content]

Israeli media is not alone in reporting on such actions. The following is being reported in the Daily Star:

BEIRUT/AMMAN: Military sites in Syria are packed with soldiers who have been effectively imprisoned by their superiors due to doubts about their loyalty, ex-soldiers say, making them possible casualties in any U.S.-led airstrikes.

Thousands of loyal security forces and militia, meanwhile, have moved into schools and residential buildings in Damascus, mixing with the civilian population in the hope of escaping a Western strike, according to residents and opposition activists.

Read more: dailystar.com.lb
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: dailystar.com.lb)

226 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:14:05pm
227 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:14:11pm

re: #220 NJDhockeyfan

Obama has nothing better to do than kill people…got it.

That’s not exactly what he said, though what he did say was also kinda lame, considering that he offers no alternative, which is the problem I have with the folks who speak ill of Obama for considering at least some use of force.

We either ‘gotta do something’ or we ‘don’t gotta do nothing’, but either course has consequences that one has to accept.

228 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:14:15pm

re: #224 Charles Johnson

The evidence for the Syria regime having carried out chemical attacks looks pretty convincing to me.

Having said that, I don’t blame anyone for having major reservations at the idea of getting involved in another Middle Eastern country’s disputes. I have deep misgivings myself, and I really hope it doesn’t have to come to military action.

It’s also disturbing, though, that the long-standing international conventions about chemical weapons seem to be falling apart. That can’t end well.

Yes, this. I believe the administration when it says that the Assad government used chemical weapons. But that sid yes, I do feel quite reticent to get involved in what looks like an internal struggle. I am just glad that I don’t have to make the decisions that Obama and his advisers do. They’ve got alot of tough ones to make in the coming days.

229 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:15:25pm

re: #224 Charles Johnson

The evidence for the Syria regime having carried out chemical attacks looks pretty convincing to me.

Having said that, I don’t blame anyone for having major reservations at the idea of getting involved in another Middle Eastern country’s disputes. I have deep misgivings myself, and I really hope it doesn’t have to come to military action.

It’s also disturbing, though, that the long-standing international conventions about chemical weapons seem to be falling apart. That can’t end well.

The conventions weren’t the thing that moved nations to give up their stockpiles. Professional military leaders on all sides basically came to hate CW—it complicates the hell out of the battlespace, and makes outcomes less predictable.

230 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:15:54pm

re: #224 Charles Johnson

The evidence for the Syria regime having carried out chemical attacks looks pretty convincing to me.

Having said that, I don’t blame anyone for having major reservations at the idea of getting involved in another Middle Eastern country’s disputes. I have deep misgivings myself, and I really hope it doesn’t have to come to military action.

It’s also disturbing, though, that the long-standing international conventions about chemical weapons seem to be falling apart. That can’t end well.

To put it crudely, the chemical weapons ban is likely to be meaningless in any case where the perpetrator has a patron among the five permanent members of the UN security council.

Ditto for all other international law, unfortunately.

231 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:17:36pm

re: #201 GeneJockey

Oh, I dunno. If Obama shot missiles at London, everyone would be pissed off, and I’m pretty sure that’s not the right course.
//

Why not?

//

232 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:17:39pm
233 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:17:56pm

This crisis has revealed something to me. I have gained a new found respect for John Kerry. Good Lawd, He brings a strong mature voice to the world stage. I never saw that coming. I now wish he had won in 2004. I hope he runs in 2016.
He was so..I dunno, Presidential today.

234 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:17:59pm
235 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:18:18pm

re: #230 EPR-radar

To put it crudely, the chemical weapons ban is likely to be meaningless in any case where the perpetrator has a patron among the five permanent members of the UN security council.

Ditto for all other international law, unfortunately.

Now there’s a happy thought.

236 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:18:37pm
237 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:18:38pm

re: #186 piratedan

it just means that he’s 85% duck

Any more than 85% and he would sound like Gilbert Gottfried.

238 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:19:52pm

re: #232 Gus

‘John Kerry wants them to DIE QUICKLY!’
~Alan Grayson

239 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:21:06pm
240 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:21:18pm

[time traveler obama]Time to send the Churchill bust back to the UK.[/time traveler obama]

241 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:22:10pm

re: #239 Gus

[Embedded content]

When I get home, I’m going to get as drunk as Alan Grayson.

242 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:22:30pm

This could end up being a litmus test for others who would use chemical weapons.

243 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:23:05pm

re: #240 b.d.

[time traveler obama]Time to send the Churchill bust back to the UK.[/time traveler obama]

4.5 years ago (i.e., 10,000 RW freak-outs ago) that was the derp of the day, wasn’t it?

244 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:23:21pm

‘i-Insomniac’ is sure logging in a lot. Never logs out, though.

245 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:24:23pm

re: #243 EPR-radar

4.5 years ago (i.e., 10,000 RW freak-outs ago) that was the derp of the day, wasn’t it?

Hard to remember, anymore. That was so many RWFOs ago.

246 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:24:53pm

When I tweeted that question about whether a US “surgical strike” with cruise missiles (as is being proposed for Syria) had ever been successful, I instantly got several dudebros wanting to lecture me about drones.

247 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:25:28pm

Some of those people will try to pedant you to death.

248 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:25:40pm

re: #214 b_sharp

You’re following the age old practice creationists have followed religiously - take each line of evidence separately and if any possibility other than the one most likely, given all the pieces of evidence taken in context with each other, exists, reject the whole thing.

Are you seriously comparing the mountain of evidence that exists for evolution with the ‘mountain’ of evidence that Assad’s people carried out a chem weapon attach last week?

What we have is super secret sources that we can’t reveal, and whose credibility and agenda we can’t verify, some grainy youtube videos, and some supposedly intercepted phone calls.

If the evidence for evolution wholly consisted of super secret testimony of someone claiming that they have seen fossils, grainy clips of Jurrassic Park, and an intercepted phone call between 2 AAS members discussing an observed E.coli mutation that allowed it to grow in citrate in the presence of Oxygen, then you probably shouldn’t put too much stock in it.

Chemical weapon use leaves a residue that’s easy to test for. Why aren’t we waiting until the experts on the ground run the tests?

Was there use of gas? If so, was it was wide spread as claimed?
Those things can be conclusively tested, without needing to resort to unverified sources and youtube clips.

249 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:25:55pm

It seems to me like the people who want to go all gung-ho into Syria have watched one too many G.I. Joe movies.

250 SchadenBoner  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:25:59pm

This war is a fool’s errand. What is the endgame? Who takes over after Assad? What evidence do we have that they are better than Assad? At least Yugoslavia had sides. We have nothing like this here just a bunch of Islamist-funded tribesmen who are as interested in massacring their fellow rebels as fighting Assad.

I am sincerely sorry that someone is gassing civilians in Syria, I am not at all sure where our national interest is in it. Nor am I certain how further destabilizing Syria prevents the proliferation of these weapons.

This looks more like Afghanistan than Bosnia, and Afghanistan on the Israeli doorstep with nerve gas.

251 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:27:25pm

re: #242 Amory Blaine

This could end up being a litmus test for others who would use chemical weapons.

Or any other WMD’s, which is why, IMHO, those who ask how any action by the US (with or without its “allies”) will bring about an end to the civil war/insurgency in Syria are missing the real point. The real issue here has to do with rogue regimes and whether they will continue to feel free to flout international norms concerning WMD’s, whether biological, chemical or nuclear. We can all be certain that Iran’s leadership is paying close attention to the West’s fecklessness in response to Assad crossing the Red Line.

252 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:27:35pm

I wonder: Could American intervention in Syria perhaps lead to the rise of another Bin Laden down the road depending on the outcome?

253 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:28:42pm

re: #252 Eclectic Cyborg

I wonder: Could American intervention in Syria perhaps lead to the rise of another Bin Laden down the road depending on the outcome?

Yes.

So could the lack of American intervention in Syria.

254 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:29:01pm

If it were possible for a Seal Team Six to infiltrate Syria, capture the Presidential compound, and exfil Assad to stand trial at the Hague I’d say go for it.

They could also bomb the rail lines to the gassing civilians centers while they’re at it.

If they’re just taking the gas to the civilians instead of taking the civilians to the gas, that’s problematic.

Why not just disable their entire air force?

255 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:29:02pm

re: #250 SchadenBoner

This war is a fool’s errand. What is the endgame? Who takes over after Assad? What evidence do we have that they are better than Assad? At least Yugoslavia had sides. We have nothing like this here just a bunch of Islamist-funded tribesmen who are as interested in massacring their fellow rebels as fighting Assad.

I am sincerely sorry that someone is gassing civilians in Syria, I am not at all sure where our national interest is in it. Nor am I certain how further destabilizing Syria prevents the proliferation of these weapons.

This looks more like Afghanistan than Bosnia, and Afghanistan on the Israeli doorstep with nerve gas.

As far as I can tell, our national interest here begins and ends with not allowing the use of chemical weapons with impunity.

WRT destabilization, how much less stable can you be than a country in an intractable civil war? I guess we’ll find out.

256 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:29:17pm

It’s still not clear what kind of chemicals were used in Syria, but the latest info I’ve seen is that it was probably NOT a nerve agent like sarin or VX. The symptoms are more similar to a blistering agent like mustard gas.

257 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:30:13pm

re: #253 wrenchwench

Yes.

So could the lack of American intervention in Syria.

I would think American involvement would be a much stronger catalyst for future terrorists than American non-involvement. As I see it, there are better reasons to stay out of this fight than get into it.

I also believe American involvement would put Israel at greater risk of retaliatory strikes as well.

258 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:30:46pm

re: #256 Charles Johnson

It’s still not clear what kind of chemicals were used in Syria, but the latest info I’ve seen is that it was probably NOT a nerve agent like sarin or VX. The symptoms are more similar to a blistering agent like mustard gas.

I figured someone like Assad wouldn’t bother using anything fancy.

259 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:31:13pm

Well, of course they were. Derp.

Syria says U.S. accusations were ‘lies and baseless’

trust.org

In better news…

“Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg will become the first Supreme Court member to conduct a same-sex marriage ceremony Saturday when she officiates at the Washington wedding of Kennedy Center President Michael M. Kaiser.

“The gala wedding of Kaiser and economist John Roberts at the performing arts center brings together the nation’s highest court and the capital’s high society and will mark a new milepost in recognition of same-sex unions.”

washingtonpost.com

260 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:34:42pm

France, ironically, stands as strongest U.S. ally in sanctioning Syria

As President Obama weighs options for sanctioning Syria over alleged chemical weapons use, France, which defiantly opposed U.S. intervention in Iraq a decade ago, has emerged as Washington’s staunchest supporter for punitive air strikes.

After the British Parliament on Thursday rejected Prime Minister David Cameron’s proposal to authorize military action against Syria, French President Francois Hollande said Friday that the British decision wouldn’t weaken his government’s commitment to sanction the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad.

261 blueraven  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:36:44pm

re: #260 Amory Blaine

France, ironically, stands as strongest U.S. ally in sanctioning Syria

The republicans, libertarians and moonbats will probably boycott french fries again.

Liberty Fries!

262 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:36:54pm

re: #259 Justanotherhuman

Well, of course they were. Derp.

Syria says U.S. accusations were ‘lies and baseless’

trust.org

In better news…

“Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg will become the first Supreme Court member to conduct a same-sex marriage ceremony Saturday when she officiates at the Washington wedding of Kennedy Center President Michael M. Kaiser.

“The gala wedding of Kaiser and economist John Roberts at the performing arts center brings together the nation’s highest court and the capital’s high society and will mark a new milepost in recognition of same-sex unions.”

washingtonpost.com

That sound you hear is Bryan Fischer’s head exploding.

263 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:37:22pm

re: #261 blueraven

The republicans, libertarians and moonbats will probably boycott french fries again.

Liberty Fries!

Patriot Fries.

264 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:37:24pm

We must appease to Hitler since that is the most peaceful route to peace.

Nazis invade Poland! I say no to war and we shouldn’t get involved. Peace now!

Nazis invade France! I say no to war and we shouldn’t get involved. Peace now!

//

265 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:38:43pm

re: #264 Gus

We must appease to Hitler since that is the most peaceful route to peace.

Nazis invade Poland! I say no to war and we shouldn’t get involved. Peace now!

Nazis invade France! I say no to war and we shouldn’t get involved. Peace now!

//

What action do you think would be effective?

266 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:39:17pm


Here is the Assad connection:

GOVERNMENT LINKS: U.S. intelligence intercepted communications of a “senior official intimately familiar with the offensive” who confirmed that chemical weapons were used by the Syrian government, and was concerned that the U.N. inspectors might find evidence of the attack. Also, the U.S. has intelligence that Syrian chemical weapons personnel were directed to “cease operations” on the afternoon of Aug. 21, several hours after the attack. At the same time, the Syrian military intensified its conventional artillery barrage of the area, upping it to four times above the amount of artillery and rocket fired in the previous 10 days, and the U.N. inspectors were shot at as they tried to inspect the areas of where the suspected chemical attacks occurred.

267 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:40:36pm

re: #265 allegro

What action do you think would be effective?

A limited strike on military hard targets (tanks, air force, artillery) to force Assad to talks in Geneva.

268 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:41:52pm

Say, how did that post WWI isolationism work out for the world?

269 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:42:12pm

re: #252 Eclectic Cyborg

I wonder: Could American intervention in Syria perhaps lead to the rise of another Bin Laden down the road depending on the outcome?

That’s certainly possible. Al Qaeda was very upset about us interfering with the genocide in East Timor which was later used as a reason to launch terrorist attacks. The following video has an unfortunate title but Hitchens is correct, we are never going to please Al Qaeda and it’s pointless to base our decisions on making them happy. It’s not gonna happen.
Youtube Video

270 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:42:41pm

re: #268 Gus

Say, how did that post WWI isolationism work out for the world?

Results are mixed.

271 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:42:43pm

Another good point about the David Miranda password story:

272 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:42:50pm

re: #265 allegro

What action do you think would be effective?

Which raises the question:

What INaction do you think would be effective?

Not directed at you especially. Just frustrated with the lack of any good options and outcomes, whether it’s “Do Something!”, or “Do Nothing”, or worse, “Do Something! No, not THAT! I don’t know what, but not THAT! Do Something Else!”

273 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:43:23pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

That’s certainly possible. Al Qaeda was very upset about us interfering with the genocide in East Timor which was later used as a reason to launch terrorist attacks. The following video has an unfortunate title but Hitchens is correct, we are never going to please Al Qaeda and it’s pointless to base our decisions on making them happy. It’s not gonna happen.
[Embedded content]

I also seem to recall that our interefence with the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Kosovo was also listed as a motivation by one of the 9-11 hijackers. No shit.

274 bratwurst  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:43:32pm
275 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:43:35pm

re: #260 Amory Blaine

Just visited the Yorktown Battlefield in Virginia last week, so I am not finding it that ironic that France is standing with us. Particularly with the Brits not doing so.

On a more serious note, though, France’s stand is not all that ironic when one considers their close ties to the Levant (Lebanon and Syria), which they administered following World War I and the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

276 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:43:36pm

What if we ignored Vietnam and the PRC and USSR decided, “great, now we can invade Japan or maybe Thailand.”

277 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:45:36pm

re: #272 GeneJockey

Which raises the question:

What INaction do you think would be effective?

Not directed at you especially. Just frustrated with the lack of any good options and outcomes, whether it’s “Do Something!”, or “Do Nothing”, or worse, “Do Something! No, not THAT! I don’t know what, but not THAT! Do Something Else!”

One thing I’d like to see happen is a bit of consciousness raising in the media about Russia’s role as the UN security council patron of Syria, and how such patronage can nullify international law, such as the chemical weapon ban.

278 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:47:14pm
279 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:47:21pm

re: #265 allegro

What action do you think would be effective?

Effective with respect to what? Effective to deter Assad from brazenly using chemical weapons again? Effective to communicate to other would-be transgressors with respect to WMD’s that the red lines drawn by the US and its allies mean something? Effective to turn the tide of the war in Syria? The answer, and whether any action should be taken at all, depends on which question you are asking.

280 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:47:34pm

Also, and, too, here’s Greenwald’s tweet from a couple of weeks ago, pretending Miranda didn’t have any passwords for the stuff he was carrying:

281 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:47:58pm

re: #277 EPR-radar

One thing I’d like to see happen is a bit of consciousness raising in the media

I too would like to see some consciousness in the media.

282 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:48:52pm

I’ve heard of land sharks, but cheeez….

A new species of shark that “walks” along the seabed using its fins as tiny legs has been discovered in eastern Indonesia, an environmental group said Friday.

news.yahoo.com

283 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:49:27pm

Ok, Ed Schultz has kinda annoyed me with his whole stance on the Syria business but he just had a great segment where he and John Fugelsang (sp?) decimated some wingnut pastor who tried to make the case, scripturally, that Obamacare should be over turned and people who need it should be denied.

It was awesome.

284 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:49:58pm

re: #282 Justanotherhuman

I’ve heard of land sharks, but cheeez….

A new species of shark that “walks” along the seabed using its fins as tiny legs has been discovered in eastern Indonesia, an environmental group said Friday.

news.yahoo.com

Candygram.

285 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:50:01pm

re: #280 Charles Johnson

He only gave up the pws to his Facebook and email accounts, which reveal nothing

I would have thought Greenwald would caution Miranda not to use one password for everything.

286 thedopefishlives  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:50:10pm

Afternoon/evening Lizardim. How go things with the new hatchlings? Are they playing nicely, or have the asbestos scale suits come out?

287 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:51:38pm

re: #286 thedopefishlives

Afternoon/evening Lizardim. How go things with the new hatchlings? Are they playing nicely, or have the asbestos scale suits come out?

Three nice ones and a bigoted moron.

288 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:52:00pm

re: #286 thedopefishlives

Afternoon/evening Lizardim. How go things with the new hatchlings? Are they playing nicely, or have the asbestos scale suits come out?

We have a live one in the pages. Wingnut, rather than dudebro.

289 thedopefishlives  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:52:30pm

re: #287 wrenchwench

Three nice ones and a bigoted moron.

Yeah, I spotted that one this morning when his Page was on the sidebar. Didn’t realize it was a new hatchling until we started discussing the recent influx upthread.

290 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:53:05pm

One of the cool things you can do with the Media Library’s search feature:

littlegreenfootballs.com

That searches for items containing both “greenwald” and “miranda”. The plus symbol means that word must be included in the results.

The minus symbol lets you exclude words. So if you enter “+greenwald -miranda” it searches for items that contain “greenwald” but not “miranda”.

If you surround a phrase with quotes, it searches for the exact phrase.

291 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:53:06pm

re: #287 wrenchwench

Francis seems to be a pompous self-promoter.

292 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:53:50pm

No idea if this is meant to be a joke or not (Poe’s Law strikes again), but:

Image: 7i7PyaS.jpg

293 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:54:10pm

re: #264 Gus

We must appease to Hitler since that is the most peaceful route to peace.

Nazis invade Poland! I say no to war and we shouldn’t get involved. Peace now!

Nazis invade France! I say no to war and we shouldn’t get involved. Peace now!

//

Umm… Syria isn’t invading anyone. In fact, we’re contemplating attacking them. Kind of like Hitler’s speech before the invasion of Poland about how the attack was defensive in nature because Poland posed such a grave threat.

294 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:54:55pm


I have a feeling Obama isn’t going to wait 2 weeks.

295 allegro  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:56:06pm

re: #272 GeneJockey

Which raises the question:

What INaction do you think would be effective?

Not directed at you especially. Just frustrated with the lack of any good options and outcomes, whether it’s “Do Something!”, or “Do Nothing”, or worse, “Do Something! No, not THAT! I don’t know what, but not THAT! Do Something Else!”

I got nuthin’ and readily admit it. Right now I am neither for nor against intervention of some type because, like you, I haven’t heard any options that when taken to their logical conclusions look like good answers. What I do have big issues with is the US intervening alone as I said above.

If we start bombing as Gus suggests, what are the consequences? It would be a clear case of declaring war and then what? Force Assad into talks in Geneva? What will they talk about? Slap his hand and say “no-no”? If Assad is deposed, who takes over?

And in the middle of all of this are the Syrian people.

296 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:56:48pm

re: #291 ProTARDISLiberal

Francis seems to be a pompous self-promoter.

He’s also a sick old man who is trying to leave a legacy, but he only wants to teach, not to learn. And I think he has more to learn than he has to teach.

297 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:57:16pm

I’m waiting for his next letter.

298 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:57:58pm

re: #296 wrenchwench

He’s also a sick old man who is trying to leave a legacy, but he only wants to teach, not to learn. And I think he has more to learn than he has to teach.

I think that’s called authoritarianism.

299 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:58:07pm

I am glad that we have been sending aid to the refugees. On this we can be proud.

300 kirkspencer  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:58:09pm

In a perfect world, I believe we should invade Syria in full force with the intent of removing the current government from leadership. On completion we would provide economic and political assistance to the new leaders to cope with the inevitable destruction that occurred during that invasion.

The greatest flaw to the perfect world is the new leadership. The rebellion is a conglomerate of competing agents who are bound together solely due to the need to defeat and destroy Assad and his government. Upon his absence resumption of hostilities between these agencies is going to be the greatest hurdle to recovery.

Why should someone invade Syria? Because a government which attacks its own citizenry is one which cannot be trusted to behave sanely toward other nations. Further, one which will use weapons of mass destruction against its citizenry has no restraints against using them against others. It is not merely insane, it is a significant danger.

Why us? Because we’re one of the few who can. And because, well, if not us, who? Shall we allow this festering wound to continue existence, providing misery and random violence, not to mention potential random gas attacks, because Syria is not adjacent to our borders? Do not the lives and stability matter philosophically?

If you insist on a more prosaic reason, that’s a highly troubled region and has plenty of loose cannons, but to this point all have retained some control. This crosses the line. As long as the Assad regime exists everyone has to assume the worst can happen, and at random times it will happen. It becomes an economic burden on the region, and since the region has a lever with which it moves the world it’s an economic burden on us.

301 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 2:59:49pm

re: #297 Amory Blaine

I’m waiting for his next letter.

Why wait? Buy the book!

/////////////

302 Mattand  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:00:54pm

re: #278 Gus

Syria is the LAST secular country in the Middle East.

Apparently the rocket scientist who created that list has never heard of Jordan.

303 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:01:17pm

re: #2 allegro

How?

With relish.

304 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:01:18pm

Some additional thoughts from the region:

In view of the fact that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has received a fantastically long warning of several days about a strike, the targets will probably be empty. The strike would raise a bit of dust and produce some great photos, though. It will allow Obama to deliver a sanctimonious speech, and routine life in Syria will resume in no time. Or maybe this should be corrected to “routine death.”
If this were to be the case, it would have been better not to embark on this adventure to begin with, Israeli officials maintain. Given that the main objective of the likely American move is deterrence, it will be totally missed if Assad comes off so easily in the wake of an embarrassing international diplomatic commotion that consisted of a white knight at the British parliament, marathon persuasion campaigns at Congress in Washington, Iranian war mongering and Syrian threats and incitement.
An Israeli official says, “If at the end of all of this, Assad is dealt a blow that looks more like a caress, what will happen is that American and Western deterrence in the region will totally collapse, which will be duly and carefully noted in Tehran. While everyone has their gaze fixed on Damascus, the real threat lurks in Tehran. In this state of affairs, it’s really better not to do anything.”
Given the current situation, quite a few Israeli officials would prefer to see American deterrence remain ambiguous and looming — one which remains to be proven. It’s better, they say, than what’s going on today, when it turns out that Obama is unable to make a quick, quiet decision and carry it out — without all this chattiness, diplomacy, vacillation, and interviews. If hardly anything happens in the end, Israeli officials contend, this will be tantamount to the Americans giving Assad a green light to continue butchering his own people and a free pass for Iran to pursue its nuclear race. After all, there is no boss in the arena, there is no responsible adult on the ground, there is no doctor in the room and there is no sheriff in the “Wild Mideast.”


Read more: al-monitor.com

305 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:01:30pm

re: #293 jc717

Umm… Syria isn’t invading anyone. In fact, we’re contemplating attacking them. Kind of like Hitler’s speech before the invasion of Poland about how the attack was defensive in nature because Poland posed such a grave threat.

Isolationism tends to grow in popularity post wars like WWI and Iraq. This is a very hot zone and allowing an emboldened Assad and his ally Iran is probably a bad idea.

306 Mattand  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:01:59pm

re: #301 wrenchwench

Why wait? Buy the book!

/////////////

Oh, Christ, I will LMAO if that turns out to be LGF’s Francis.

307 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:02:32pm

re: #300 kirkspencer

Yikes, sorry about logging you out, kirkspencer — I was testing something and it got away from me. You can log back in now.

308 thedopefishlives  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:03:06pm

re: #307 Charles Johnson

Yikes, sorry about logging you out, kirkspencer — I was testing something and it got away from me. You can log back in now.

You can punt people? GASP! CHARLES IS A TYRANT! ALERT THE MEDI— +++CARRIER LOST

309 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:04:36pm

People keep forgetting about the CW getting in the hands of the rebel groups.

310 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:04:56pm

re: #306 Mattand

Amazon isn’t allowing a peek.

311 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:05:21pm

re: #306 Mattand

Oh, Christ, I will LMAO if that turns out to be LGF’s Francis.

Already verified. His name and email is linked in his nic in one of his comments.

312 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:06:07pm

re: #309 Gus

People keep forgetting about the CW getting in the hands of the rebel groups.

That would be bad.
Why aren’t we contemplating bombing the Al Qaeda elements in Syria?
What’s the point of toppling Assad if someone far worse takes over afterwards?

313 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:06:12pm

Rim Fire sends smoke to Valley floor — Health caution through weekend for most of air basin

abclocal.go.com

Take good care if you live in that area.

314 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:07:04pm

re: #312 jc717

That would be bad.
Why aren’t we contemplating bombing the Al Qaeda elements in Syria?
What’s the point of toppling Assad if someone far worse takes over afterwards?

There would have to be concentrations of AQ. Like looking for a needle in a hay stack.

315 Mattand  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:07:23pm

re: #311 wrenchwench

Already verified. His name and email is linked in his nic in one of his comments.

BWAH HA HA HA HA (plunk) OW MY ASS!

Too funny.

316 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:07:31pm
317 jc717  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:09:01pm

re: #314 Gus

There would have to be concentrations of AQ. Like looking for a needle in a hay stack.

If we have ‘multiple streams of intelligence’ from Syria as we claim, then finding them, or at least some of their leaders, shouldn’t be that difficult.
They run entire villages and outposts is some areas.

318 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:09:10pm
319 Stanley Sea  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:10:14pm

Got off work early. There was still crazy traffic.

But I’m home and ready for the happy weekend!

Hey LGF!

320 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:10:56pm

re: #317 jc717

If we have ‘multiple streams of intelligence’ from Syria as we claim, then finding them, or at least some of their leaders, shouldn’t be that difficult.
They run entire villages and outposts is some areas.

Well, attacking any element of the Syrian opposition probably would end badly. They’re fighting side by side.

321 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:11:03pm
322 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:11:23pm

re: #304 sliv_the_eli

If we launch, there is no way this ends with Assad alive. Ask Saddam and Moammar.

323 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:11:55pm

re: #317 jc717

If we have ‘multiple streams of intelligence’ from Syria as we claim, then finding them, or at least some of their leaders, shouldn’t be that difficult.
They run entire villages and outposts is some areas.

324 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:12:24pm

I wasn’t fast enough. Got me Gus.

325 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:12:38pm
326 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:13:00pm

re: #321 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Kafr Anbel

The fortitude & courage of revolutionaries .. From Kafranbel

occupiedkafranbel.com

327 piratedan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:14:09pm

well context is important…. and I’m sorry, it’s mostly a tl;dr post

Not sure that anyone is taking into account the power vacuum that is appearing with the advent of the “Arab Spring” in which the formerly dominant political model in the Middle East is failing, namely the dictatorship/despotism model. How did it get there in the first place, naturally we in the West are responsible for it post WW II; although to be brutally honest, the other models would have most likely been of a Russian or Chinese flavor with not many essential differences (at least in my minds eye that the people living there would have any more freedom or liberty). The rise of Arab Nationalism didn’t create democracies for the most part (only Lebanon comes to mind) and the few rare exceptions against this model were Monarchies, some benign (see Morocco, Jordan), some not so much (see Iran, socially western leading but politically more like East Germany and Saudi Arabia). Most of these nation states were carved out of the old colonial model, be it British, Turkish, French or Italian. Those guys were mostly concerned with exploiting resources, trade and not very much concerned with allowing any kind of bestowing of a franchise on these peoples. The less benign Monarchies and the dictatorships followed this model, exploit the people, live well and lets see what tomorrow brings.

Islam needs to be addressed, as does the various flavors of Christianity and Judaism to a lesser extent and noted that Islam itself is not monolithic and it’s current schisms are as violent as the ones that existed between Catholics and Protestants, it’s just that we have more efficient ways of killing each other these days. So it’s readily apparent that the Shiites and the Sunni’s loathe each other and there is no member/person/notable cleric in the Middle East preaching tolerance of one another from any kind of bully pulpit in that region. It’s also evident that as soon as one faction gains the upper hand on the other, the long knives come out (see Egypt, Iraq, Iran).

We also need to note two other influences, since post cold war politics see the US in the ascendant position and that China and Russia will take virtually any position that will weaken that standing, regardless of what it is. Our own internal politics which pretty much pit the R’s and the D’s in the same light, doesn’t matter what the D’s do, as long as it weakens them, the R’s will not wait to seize the opportunity to use it for political gain.

Let’s not forget the press, especially the western press, which is more concerned in many cases with clicks and eyeballs and revenue than in reporting facts, supposition and opinion in the proper context.

so now we have the evidence…. can you believe it… that choice is yours, I tend to see this in the light of this administration, if they’re saying it happened, then most likely it happened. The last administration, not so much. I don’t see this administration racing headlong into the trenches but trying to find the right way to apply the right pressure to keep Assad from mass murdering his population. How to manage that measured response is going to be excruciatingly tricky, much more so than Libya and Egypt. I really don’t think this administration wants this, but it’s faced with a Pandora’s box of choices, we ignore the chemical attacks (regardless of who issued them) and it allows other entities in the world to consider their procurement and use in advancement of their causes.

If you don’t believe the administrations story, then no intervention on any scale is likely to satisfy you. I don’t have a problem with that to be honest, because I really don’t think anyone here is relishing getting involved.

The part that I can only touch on lightly is whatever aftermath follows, how do you build a nation state after multiple centuries of despotism? Especially in the hotbed of a religion that is undergoing an internal fundamentalism revisionary period?

328 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:14:46pm
329 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:15:09pm

re: #306 Mattand

Oh, Christ, I will LMAO if that turns out to be LGF’s Francis.

What’s the over under the review is by him

330 thedopefishlives  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:15:56pm

re: #329 b_sharp

What’s the over under the review is by him

No bet. I think that’s fairly self-explanatory.

331 CuriousLurker  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:16:51pm

An interesting, informative read:

The Civil War Within Syria’s Civil War
Armies of Kurdish women are taking on Syria’s Islamists — and winning.

RAS AL-AYN, Syria — “Quick, run, run,” shouts Kurdish commander Roshna Akeed, as she orders two young female fighters to move toward a brick wall that represents the front line between Kurdish forces and al Qaeda-linked militants in this northern Syrian town.

Six male Kurdish fighters are already guarding this part of the front. They have removed some of the bricks from the five foot-high wall, and their guns peak through small holes toward the enemy, which is positioned in a hamlet roughly one-third of a mile away.

At the moment when the two female fighters arrive, the shooting erupts. One girl sporting a pony tail runs to the right, sticks her Kalashnikov through a hole in the wall and opens fire. Her male colleagues are also firing now. One man shoots through a hole in the wall while sitting on a white plastic chair. On the back of the chair is written in Arabic: “I love you until death.”

As if Syria does not have enough war already, fighting recently broke out in the northeast of the country between Kurdish forces and radical Islamists — both of whom are no friends of President Bashar al-Assad’s regime. In Ras al-Ayn, all the country’s problems come together: The town not only sits on the front lines of fighting between Kurds and Arabs, it is also located right on the edge of the Syrian-Turkish border. The Kurdish fighters in Syria are separated from Turkey’s border troops — traditionally the implacable enemies of any form of Kurdish separatism — by only a 5-centimeter-thick iron gate.

The result is a civil war within a civil war. As the United States prepares for a military intervention in response to what it says was an Aug. 21 chemical weapons attack by the Assad regime on the eastern Damascus suburbs, it is just these sort of divides that could give American policymakers headaches for months and years to come. While U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration has signaled that any strike will not aim to topple Assad, deeper U.S. involvement in the country’s two-and-a-half-year civil war will mean more than a few Tomahawk missiles lobbed at military installations in Damascus - it will require grappling with the sectarian and ethnic divides that promise to define Syria’s future. […]

foreignpolicy.com

332 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:17:14pm

re: #322 Decatur Deb

Regardless of what we do, it is unlikely that Assad comes out of this war alive unless either (a) he secures an outright military victory over the Saudi- and Western-funded insurgency; or (b) his patrons in Iran give him asylum. It is not, in my opinion, our responsibility to hasten his demise, particularly because the currently available alternative is at least as unpalatable. In fact, an al-Nusra or other radical Islamist-led government might turn out to be more, rather than less, predictable in its actions in the region. Our actions should be severe enough restore deterrence, without tipping the balance in the war.

333 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:17:49pm

re: #328 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Anything has to be better than being a model…

334 kirkspencer  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:19:06pm

re: #307 Charles Johnson

Yikes, sorry about logging you out, kirkspencer — I was testing something and it got away from me. You can log back in now.

‘sok. It managed to wait till after I posted my little rant. (grin)

335 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:21:10pm

re: #331 CuriousLurker

Armies of Kurdish women are taking on Syria’s Islamists — and winning.

Where there’s a Kurd there’s a way.

yes i’ve been saving that for thirty years or more….

336 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:22:18pm

re: #331 CuriousLurker

Ah, the Kurds. Speaking of groups to which we should be giving support.

337 CuriousLurker  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:25:06pm

re: #336 sliv_the_eli

Ah, the Kurds. Speaking of groups to which we should be giving support.

I’d totally forgotten about them in all this. What a mess. O_o

338 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:44:06pm

Copy.

339 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:44:17pm

Did the hamsters crash against the wall for anyone else? Or was that just me?

340 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:44:53pm

re: #339 Targetpractice

Did the hamsters crash against the wall for anyone else? Or was that just me?

I thought it was my modem.

341 Stanley Sea  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:45:06pm

Phew, we’re back.

342 Stanley Sea  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:46:25pm

re: #334 kirkspencer

‘sok. It managed to wait till after I posted my little rant. (grin)

And now I’m back to where I got kicked off.

Is that your broken leg?

343 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:46:27pm

Web server just froze up and eventually restarted. Took a quick look at the logs and didn’t see anything weird going on. Just wanted a little break, I guess.

344 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:47:06pm

Obviously we have angered The Greenwald! We must offer him a sacrifice!

345 Stanley Sea  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:48:36pm

re: #343 Charles Johnson

Web server just froze up and eventually restarted. Took a quick look at the logs and didn’t see anything weird going on. Just wanted a little break, I guess.

Totally flashed back to the time the servers took a dive. Stressful.

:)

346 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:48:48pm

I like it when weeddude does this:


He always gets some good responses.

347 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:49:07pm

re: #344 Targetpractice

Obviously we have angered The Greenwald! We must offer him a sacrifice!

Francis!

348 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:49:39pm

re: #337 CuriousLurker

I’d totally forgotten about them in all this. What a mess. O_o

Kurds. The middle child of the middle east.

349 CuriousLurker  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:49:50pm

re: #344 Targetpractice

Obviously we have angered The Greenwald! We must offer him a sacrifice!

I thought maybe it was demons. Y’know, ‘cause all of the godless atheists and amoral liberals that hang out here. Bryan & Pat warned this might happen.

350 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:49:54pm

re: #302 Mattand

Apparently the rocket scientist who created that list has never heard of Jordan.

Rocket surgeon.

/

351 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:50:32pm

re: #349 CuriousLurker

I thought maybe it was demons. Y’know, ‘cause all of the godless atheists and amoral liberals that hang out here. Bryan & Pat warned this might happen.

I’d never rule out demons. Of course, that’s because I’d never rule them in, either.

352 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:50:33pm

OK. I’ve decided. If the UN confirms a CW attack by Assad then go for launch.

353 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:50:39pm

re: #344 Targetpractice

Obviously we have angered The Greenwald! We must offer him a sacrifice!

I think Snowden would be an appropriate one.

354 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:51:17pm

re: #349 CuriousLurker

I thought maybe it was demons. Y’know, ‘cause all of the godless atheists and amoral liberals that hang out here. Bryan & Pat warned this might happen.

I’m a godless atheist and an amoral liberal! I’M DOOMED!!!

355 CuriousLurker  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:52:15pm

re: #352 Gus

OK. I’ve decided. If the UN confirms a CW attack by Assad then go for launch.

Phew, thank goodness that’s settled! Somebody call POTUS and let him know. // ;)

356 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:52:18pm

“Go for lunch” is probably a more appropriate way of describing what the folks at the UN will do.

357 b.d.  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:52:56pm

re: #343 Charles Johnson

Web server just froze up and eventually restarted. Took a quick look at the logs and didn’t see anything weird going on. Just wanted a little break, I guess.

Aw geez Charles, now you’ve done it. Your exchange with Jukes/Brit has made him find the highest horse he could find and write the biggest BS Greenwaldian fluffer excuse piece possible, which naturally now sits upon the uppermost level of the Daily Kos wreck list

358 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:53:24pm

Our host has a remote monitor set up on that server, so if/when it freezes (Apache’s known to get cranky sometimes) they can restart it.

359 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:53:51pm

re: #355 CuriousLurker

Phew, thank goodness that’s settled! Somebody call POTUS and let him know. // ;)

Anyone see that abbreviation and automatically say it as “POE-tuss” ?(or “FLOW-tuss” for the first lady)

Lord knows I do.

360 ObserverArt  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:54:01pm

re: #213 GeneJockey

These things are where hopeful ventures like the League of Nations and the United Nations fail, and the hopes and dreams of those who established them - that they would stop things just like this - wither and die.

Great ideas lead to hope and change. Ideas count on implementation. As with any group effort, everyone is on board at first and then time, other efforts, angers, politics, etc. get in the way and it usually all falls back on what it always was anyway. The Middle East has been through this throughout history. Obama is going through this while in office.

The all time “great idea’ that still today we are told brings hope and change is religion. Funny too how three major religions all started in the same place…literally the same rock.

Hmmm. There is a message in there somewhere!

361 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:54:52pm

re: #357 b.d.

I think he wrote that earlier and was all fired up with his pet agenda when he came at me.

362 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:57:27pm

re: #359 Eclectic Cyborg

Anyone see that abbreviation and automatically say it as “POE-tuss” ?(or “FLOW-tuss” for the first lady)

Lord knows I do.

That’s not right? How are we supposed to say it?

363 Stanley Sea  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:57:33pm

re: #359 Eclectic Cyborg

Anyone see that abbreviation and automatically say it as “POE-tuss” ?(or “FLOW-tuss” for the first lady)

Lord knows I do.

Obama has called Michelle “flowtus” before.

364 Stanley Sea  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:58:04pm

re: #363 Stanley Sea

Obama has called Michelle “flowtus” before.

It was very cute.

365 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 3:58:40pm

re: #360 ObserverArt

Great ideas lead to hope and change. Ideas count on implementation. As with any group effort, everyone is on board at first and then time, other efforts, angers, politics, etc. get in the way and it usually all falls back on what it always was anyway. The Middle East has been through this throughout history. Obama is going through this while in office.

The all time “great idea’ that still today we are told brings hope and change is religion. Funny too how three major religions all started in the same place…literally the same rock.

Hmmm. There is a message in there somewhere!

“So, what did we learn? Not to do that again, I suppose, though I’m fucked if I know what we did.”

366 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:00:12pm

re: #359 Eclectic Cyborg

Anyone see that abbreviation and automatically say it as “POE-tuss” ?(or “FLOW-tuss” for the first lady)

Lord knows I do.

Of course! Say, if he had Erectile Dysfunction, would he be the imPOTUS?

367 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:00:25pm

re: #362 wrenchwench

That’s not right? How are we supposed to say it?

I just figured some of you see it and substitute “The President”, “Obama”, “President of the United States” or some such.

368 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:02:10pm

re: #367 Eclectic Cyborg

I just figured some of you see it and substitute “The President”, “Obama”, “President of the United States” or some such.

It’s probably going the other way around, with acronyms getting more and more used. Perhaps a few decades from now, the ballots will have ‘candidate for POTUS’ on them.

369 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:03:43pm

re: #354 Targetpractice

I’m a godless atheist and an amoral liberal! I’M DOOMED!!!

I guess you and I will burn in hell together. Or, more likely, not.

370 GeneJockey  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:05:21pm

re: #368 EPR-radar

It’s probably going the other way around, with acronyms getting more and more used. Perhaps a few decades from now, the ballots will have ‘candidate for POTUS’ on them.

Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho, Candidate for POTUS.

371 Gus  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:10:03pm
372 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:10:39pm

re: #366 GeneJockey

Of course! Say, if he had Erectile Dysfunction, would he be the imPOTUS?

Bob Dole would have been if he had won in ‘96.

Link

373 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:15:23pm

re: #344 Targetpractice

Obviously we have angered The Greenwald! We must offer him a sacrifice!

I will melt down my bitcoins too-swift!!!

374 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 4:30:42pm

re: #248 jc717

Are you seriously comparing the mountain of evidence that exists for evolution with the ‘mountain’ of evidence that Assad’s people carried out a chem weapon attach last week?

What we have is super secret sources that we can’t reveal, and whose credibility and agenda we can’t verify, some grainy youtube videos, and some supposedly intercepted phone calls.

If the evidence for evolution wholly consisted of super secret testimony of someone claiming that they have seen fossils, grainy clips of Jurrassic Park, and an intercepted phone call between 2 AAS members discussing an observed E.coli mutation that allowed it to grow in citrate in the presence of Oxygen, then you probably shouldn’t put too much stock in it.

Chemical weapon use leaves a residue that’s easy to test for. Why aren’t we waiting until the experts on the ground run the tests?

Was there use of gas? If so, was it was wide spread as claimed?
Those things can be conclusively tested, without needing to resort to unverified sources and youtube clips.

I’m not quite sure where you get the idea I was comparing the evidence for evolution to that of chemical weapons. I thought I was being clear it was your method of analysis that was suspect. I was comparing how the evidence is analyzed in your comment to the methods used in most sciences.

375 Flavia  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 5:01:08pm

re: #31 Gus

Until we do. Then it’s called “interfering”, and some slimebag decides to bomb one of our cities because our troops are “on sacred Muslim soil”.

(Sad thing is, I think we should intervene, because, obviously, no one else is going to….)

376 Flavia  Fri, Aug 30, 2013 5:10:24pm

re: #71 Vicious Babushka

I can’t believe it, a wingnut meme that I wish I had made up first.
However: apples & oranges. The Confederacy was actually counting on France & Britain coming to their rescue. Sucked for them when Vicky opted out.

[Embedded content]

Here’s what I just tweeted back to him:

“Remember when we had a “Civil War” w/England & the French/Polish/Germans showed up to intervene? Or are you sorry they did?”

377 GlutenFreeJesus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:36:12am

re: #261 blueraven

The republicans, libertarians and moonbats will probably boycott french fries again.

Liberty Fries!

“Make me fries.”

Youtube Video

378 GlutenFreeJesus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:38:16am

re: #371 Gus

[Embedded content]

Of course, but the thing about the Balkans, there were obvious sides. This whole mess in Syria sure doesn’t. Anything we’d do would end up helping the wrong people.

379 urbanmeemaw  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 8:44:08am

re: #366 GeneJockey

No, Rush Limbaugh.


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