Fact-Checking Pamela Geller: ‘270 Million’ Victims of Islam?

Another braindead meme
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In her latest post Pamela Geller screeches:

It is time there was a museum exhibit dedicated to the victims of jihad. Where is the Met’s showcase of the lives and cultures and histories of the 270 million victims of over a millennium of jihadi wars, land appropriations, cultural annihilations, and enslavements? Where is the grandiose suite of new galleries dedicated to highlighting Islam’s systematic dehumanization of women: honor killings, clitorectomies, and so much more?

Wow, wow, Pamela, wait there a second. “270 million victims” of Islam? Are you sure? What might be the source for this? She gives no link.

Thankfully, Gus found what might be the primary source for this statistic:

Tears of Jihad

These figures are a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad.

Africa

Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.

120 million Africans

Christians

The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:

60 million Christians

Hindus

Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the ‘funeral pyre of the Hindus.’

80 million Hindus

Buddhists

Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam); everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.]

10 million Buddhists

Jews

Oddly enough there were not enough Jews killed in jihad to significantly affect the totals of the Great Annihilation. The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective, but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that, the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.

This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.

This was written by Bill French aka “Bill Warner” of “Center for the Study of Political Islam” (cf. this FrontPageMag interview).

Let’s go over it step by step.

1. Africans. The number of 120 million victims is, of course, taken from thin air. Even assuming the number of 25 million slaves to be correct, and assuming that “Islam” was responsible for them, one cannot simply multpily the number by a single dodgy statistical point to get some sort of a total number of “dead”.

Notice that the whole transatlantic slave trade is attributed to Islam! Apparently, Christians had nothing to do with it. This way we will soon hear that Confederacy was an Islamic separatist state.

However, when we assume the scope of the Arab slave trade (which existed before Islam) to be between 10-18 million people, to claim that Islam as such is responsible for the associated victims is the same as claiming that Christianity is to blame for the victims of slavery and racism perpetrated by Christians (among many other things).

2. Christians. The first source cited is not quite scholarly. It’s a mish-mash of statistical data, and when it comes to “martyrdom” particularly, there is no careful, scholarly discussion of each particular number as well as its sources, which leaves the question of the reliability of each particular statistic open. Here’s the table 4-10. It is so exhaustive, yet it has only 9 million alleged Christian victims of Muslims (I did not bother to verify by recounting, but table 4-5 does have 9 million alleged victims of Muslims). However then the “Tears of Jihad” article claims that there were 50 million more of them. How did the authors of that table somehow miss these additional millions? If they were so incompetent, why cite their statistics in the first place?

But where is the 50 million figure from? The source is given as “History of Asia Minor” by Raphael Moore. Quick Google search brings up this source, which is an article by Raphael Moore entitled “In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust”. Its first sub-section is called “History Of Asia Minor: 1894-1923”, which is apparently at the root of confusion for Geller’s source: the name of the sub-section was confused with the name of the complete work. Such brilliant scholarship.

The number “50 million” does appear in the article, but only as a total number of Christians martyred in XXth century!

Between the tolls exacted from prisons, concentration camps, forced marches and exiles, warfare, famine, and brutal military occupation, it is reasonable to conclude that up to 50 million Orthodox Christians have perished in the first eight decades of the twentieth century.

Geller’s source simply took this number and ascribed it to “Jihad”.

(As a side note, this source is also far from scholarly and the number is not calculated properly, but that is already irrelevant for the purposes of the present critique.)

3. Hindus. It is claimed that the number is estimated by Elst (who is known for right-wing anti-Muslim bias). However, when we take a look at his book we see this:

As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention Prof. K.S.Lal’s estimates about the population figures in medieval India (Growth of Muslim Population in India). According to his calculations, the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate). More research is needed before we can settle for a quantitatively accurate evaluation of Muslim rule in India, but at least we know for sure that the term crime against humanity is not exaggerated.

So it’s not Elst’s estimate, but Lal’s estimate. And moreover, it is not an estimate of 80 million murders. It’s an estimate of a population decrease in five centuries, the causes of which may be many, including natural population decrease, conversions, etc.

The problem, however, is that Lal’s estimates are simply fantasies. One cannot take seriously any such estimates based on extremely fragmentary demographic data for the year 1000. Simon Digby writes in his review of Lal’s book, after addressing some of Lal’s assumptions (Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, vol. 38, no. 1, 1975, p. 177):

Regarding the population of India before A.D. 1000 Lal quotes the guesses of Colin Clark - 70 millions - and Jyotindra Mohan Datta - 200 to 300 millions. He himself prefers 200 millions and he believes that, mainly as a result of the Muslim invasions and presence, the population of India fell from 200 millions in A.D. 1000 to 125 millions in A.D. 1500, to rise under more amiable Mughal rule to 175 millions in 1700.

[…]

The author is known for his detailed studies of the Khalji dynasty and of the fifteenth century Delhi sultanate. He is well versed in the sources of medieval North Indian history. In the present study he has assembled almost all the conceivably relevant data and for this reason it will remain of value as a compendium of references. Yet the unknown variables are so great and the quality of the data yielded by our sources so poor that almost any detailed general estimates of population based upon them must appear wilful, if not fantastic. At the time when this review was being written, E. J. Hobsbawm (in New Society, 11 July 1974, 76) called the attention of historians of premodern Europe, who dabble in social statistics based on sources of comparable quality to those of Lal, to an axiom of computer operators ‘GIGO’: this stands for ‘Garbage in - Garbage out’!

A reasonable person can agree with this conclusion. Thus, the figure of “80,000,000” Hindus murdered by Muslims is based on nothing but weak speculations.

Interestingly, elsewhere Elst writes:

Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.

4. Buddhists. The only source given for the alleged Buddhist victims of Muslims is the same book with Christian statistics, not any scholarly historical source about, you know, Buddhists. But when we look at the table 4-1, we only see the number of 10,000,000 Buddhists cited (without sources, I might add; and it contains 80,000,000 alleged Muslim martyrs as well, 10 million more than alleged Christian martyrs, estimated to be 70 million!). There is no indication in the table that these Buddhists were slaughtered by Muslims.

———

As an atheist, I have no problem with talking about the responsibility of religions for many evils of this world. However I must state that the much bandied about number of “270 million” victims of Islam is total bunk based on nothing.

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350 comments
1 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 6:16:34pm

It's a minor quibble compared to the ridiculously inflated numbers, but the meaning of the name Hindu Kush is also incorrect.

The generally accepted first citation of the name is from ibn Battuta in 1333 AD, who explains that the name means "Hindu Killer" in Persian because the mountain peoples who dwelt there were fierce adversaries of the Hindus that dwelt below. This is the name origin that I've always heard from Pakistanis and Afghanis, and you'll find the anecdote in Raj sources dealing with the NWFP as well.

Added from Wikipedia:

It's been speculated that kush could derive not from kushtar, to kill, but instead from koh/kuh, meaning mountain, or kash/kesh, meaning boundary.

Word origins in the ancient past are often deformed over time, so we'll basically never know what the origin point of the name was.

2 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 6:52:49pm

Wow, you did a great job in this—thanks! Gus must've used his formidable Google Fu to find that link. It would've taken me half a day to put together a page like this.

It just so happens that I saw Geller's page earlier today when I went to check if there was anything else about that 2nd hotel that cancelled the contract with her. I only made it through the first paragraph of rabid spewing before I gave up. This is the woman who says she doesn't hate Muslims. O_o

Speaking of hate, while googling stuff related to some other Pages earlier in the week I came across a "Christian" site that was full of quite nasty antisemitic and Holocaust denial stuff.

I'm beginning to think these levels of hatred have less to do with religion than they do with pathology, or even psychopathy...if such people didn't have religion, I'm fairly certain they'd find some other vehicle through which to vent their sick rage and attempt to justify it as legitimate.

3 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:05:42pm

Second note:

K S Lal, the source for the numbers regarding Hindus, has received criticism from other Indian scholars for his associations with promoters of Hindutva. The BJP like him enough to make him the guy edited the nation's schoolbooks, and apparently his work at NCERT has drawn criticism for it's handling of the role of Islam on the subcontinent.

For those not up on Indian politics, the BJP are the second largest national party, and style themselves as the conservatives. While not explicitly Hindu-chauvinist in their platform, they flirt with Hindu Nationalism in speeches and public declarations. Individual BJP members elected to state positions have been more open, including the demolition of the Babri Masjid and the 2002 Gujarat riots.

While I'm not deep enough to definitively condemn the man myself, the agenda of his backer Morarji Desai involves invocation of "communist bias" in the scholarship that was used to set the syllabus on Indian history, and Lal's own defense of his works justifies his work as countering an ongoing leftist bias in Indian universities.

Mention of Lal interacting with the RSS is included in his Wikipedia page, but that's a steep charge to make without citation. I'll see if I can find any more....

Koenraad Elst is a Dutch orientalist who actively supports Hindutva. He also endorses Vlaams Belang and the volkisch Nouvelle Droite movement. His works include The Saffron Swastika, which defend Hindutva founder Vinayak Savarkar and RSS guru Madhav Golwalkar from accusations of fascism and racism.

Savarkar and Golwalkar aren't easily labelled as absolute racists--a lot depends on how you interpret certain specific statement, particularly about the Aryan origin of Hindu-ness-- but I personally am wary of the outcomes that have resulted from their thoughts and positions regarding how Indian-ness means Hindu-ness. Savarkar was the intellectual guru of Naturam Godse, Gandhi's assassin. The RSS don't quite fit the bill as fascists, either...but they posture as a paramilitary organization and their members keep getting caught harassing and bullying Muslims and Christians, and the party as a whole seems to turn up in proximity to violence.

4 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:10:00pm

re: #3 The Ghost of a Flea

"endorses Vlaams Belang"

His wiki says he allegedly condemned its xenophobia. But perhaps he decided they got rid of this problem?

5 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:13:24pm

re: #4 Sergey Romanov

"endorses Vlaams Belang"

His wiki says he allegedly condemned its xenophobia. But perhaps he decided they got rid of this problem?

Correct. I wrote their name in instead of Nouvelle Droit, then forgot to delete them when I went back and added the latter. Thanks for the correction.

Crap...missed the edited window. This sentence--

Koenraad Elst is a Dutch orientalist who actively supports Hindutva. He also endorses Vlaams Belang and the volkisch Nouvelle Droite movement.

should read

Koenraad Elst is a Dutch orientalist who actively supports Hindutva. He also endorses the volkisch Nouvelle Droite movement.

6 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:31:53pm

re: #1 The Ghost of a Flea

Added from Wikipedia:

It's been speculated that kush could derive not from kushtar, to kill, but instead from koh/kuh, meaning mountain, or kash/kesh, meaning boundary.

That's possible since kush—or kosh, to be more phonetically accurate—by itself is just the verb stem of the infinitive koshtan. It doesn't make sense grammatically. You could say Hindu Kusht, which would mean "Hindu kills", with Hindu being the subject not the object. In Farsi, the word Hindu would need the suffix -ra to denote it as the object—i.e. Hindu-ra kusht = He/she/it kills Hindus (the subject being implied by the verb tense; the 3rd person singular pronoun او has no gender and must be understood in context). Or something like that...my Farsi is pretty rusty.

I see much bigger brains than mine are here now, so I'll just fade back into the background, heh.

7 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:36:04pm

Awesome work!

8 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:40:20pm

re: #7 ggt

Awesome work!

Thanks for kind words.

9 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:44:37pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

...In Farsi, the word Hindu would need the suffix -ra to denote it as the object—i.e. Hindu-ra kusht = He/she/it kills Hindus (the subject being implied by the verb tense person; the 3rd person singular pronoun او has no gender and must be understood in context).

Missed the fricking edit window.

10 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 8:00:44pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

That's possible since kush—or kosh, to be more phonetically accurate—by itself is just the verb stem of the infinitive koshtan. It doesn't make sense grammatically. You could say Hindu Kusht, which would mean "Hindu kills", with Hindu being the subject not the object. In Farsi, the word Hindu would need the suffix -ra to denote it as the object—i.e. Hindu-ra kusht = He/she/it kills Hindus (the subject being implied by the verb tense; the 3rd person singular pronoun او has no gender and must be understood in context). Or something like that...my Farsi is pretty rusty.

I see much bigger brains than mine are here now, so I'll just fade back into the background, heh.

I know near-zero Farsi...my vocabulary extends exactly as far as the Persian recipes I've cooked. The only word I'm completely confident about recognizing is koresht, stew.

The way I see it: the Rihla was a massive travelogue, but not a work of a scholar set out to research anything with intensity or an eye toward verification. Ibn Battuta's account of the name could be apocryphal, or folk etymology. It could be that a transition in meaning occurred long before he arrived to record it.

Basically, we'll never know the origin with perfect confidence.

11 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 9:23:07pm

re: #10 The Ghost of a Flea

Khoresht is a very important word. Nom, nom, nom... ;o)

As a matter of fact, I'll be making khoresht ghormeh sabzi tomorrow.

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 10:23:28pm

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Khoresht is a very important word. Nom, nom, nom... ;o)

As a matter of fact, I'll be making khoresht ghormeh sabzi tomorrow.

And when it is done, there will come a knock on your door. Don't be alarmed by the wild-eyed chubby brunette on the doorstep, it's only me. I'll bring some dessert.

13 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 10:40:54pm

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Khoresht is a very important word. Nom, nom, nom... ;o)

As a matter of fact, I'll be making khoresht ghormeh sabzi tomorrow.

Lovely. As a direct result of this thread I've assayed the pantry and determined I've got the ingredients for fesenjan, so that's tomorrow night's dinner plan.

14 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 11:00:59pm

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

And when it is done, there will come a knock on your door. Don't be alarmed by the wild-eyed chubby brunette on the doorstep, it's only me. I'll bring some dessert.

You're welcome to come on over any time! ;o)

15 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 29, 2011 11:02:47pm

re: #13 The Ghost of a Flea

Lovely. As a direct result of this thread I've assayed the pantry and determined I've got the ingredients for fesenjan, so that's tomorrow night's dinner plan.

OMG, I'm soooo jealous! I don't have any pomegranate molasses and I've been craving fesenjan for months. Must. Find. Pomegranate. Molasses.

16 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 30, 2011 5:28:47am

This absolutely deserves a promotion. I clicked the ! button and recommended it.

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 30, 2011 6:15:30am

re: #16 000G

Thank you!

18 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:05:58am

Heh. I always like it when a private page suddenly gets frontpaged, pomegranate jam and all.

I'd just like to note that by being casual with death statistics, as Pamela is, she's diminishing the importance and accuracy of real genocidal and democidal deaths. Just making figures up and using whatever is convenient is what the holocaust deniers do.

19 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:08:34am

The world hit seven billion folks today.

20 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:10:45am

re: #19 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The world hit seven billion folks today.

Who was it?

21 Big Joe  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:11:24am

re: #20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Who was it?

Hu was it.

22 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:11:52am

re: #18 Obdicut

Heh. I always like it when a private page suddenly gets frontpaged, pomegranate jam and all.

Oh, no...*groan, blush*

23 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:11:57am

re: #21 mracb

Hu was it.

Almost certainly. The odds are good that the 7th billion was a Han Chinese male.

24 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:12:00am

re: #21 mracb

Hu was it.

THIRD BASE!

25 Kronocide  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:12:02am

Beautiful 'Fact Check Yo Ass' -ification.

26 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:13:10am

re: #16 000G

This absolutely deserves a promotion. I clicked the ! button and recommended it.

Yeah, he did a great job. Congrats, Sergey!

27 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:14:01am

re: #20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Who was it?

This cute little guy.

28 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:15:35am

re: #27 NJDhockeyfan

This cute little guy.

That's a girl, not a guy.

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:17:26am

Wawaweeva, big success!//

Thanks, Charles.

30 garhighway  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:17:45am

Taking it as a given that the numbers in the article are horseshit, I wonder what a similar box score for Christianity would be?

31 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:18:50am

re: #30 garhighway

Taking it as a given that the numbers in the article are horseshit, I wonder what a similar box score for Christianity would be?

Zero.

No true Christian...

32 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:19:52am

The quality of the commenters here never ceases to amaze me.

33 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:20:09am

re: #30 garhighway

It's all going to horrible horseshit one way or the other. I mean, if you're dealing with just reduction in population, then the annihilation of the Native Americans through disease is under the "Christian" death toll. But that's obviously bunk.

This sort of slap-dance ahistorical nonsense is a sign of someone who doesn't actually give a shit about the victims at all.

34 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:20:50am

re: #30 garhighway

Taking it as a given that the numbers in the article are horseshit, I wonder what a similar box score for Christianity would be?

Here's what is probably the most accurate estimate of deaths-by-massacre throughout the ages:

The 20 worst things people have done to each other

35 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:21:14am

LGF ARE A BUNCH OF GENOSIDE DENEIRS!!!!1!! *ick*

/prediction

36 chunkymonkey  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:22:21am

Do you ever get the feeling you're wasting your time with PG? She's obviously nuts. She writes stupid crap all the time. Why bother? If I spent my days with a blog noting all the crazy stuff extreme wing bloggers write every day I'd go mental.

37 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:22:40am

To survey the history of mankind is to look upon death and disease. It's no fun. I indexed a page from 1830-something in England the other day that listed 32 burials. 26 of the deceased were under 18.

Slavery was endemic, world-wide, until William Wilberforce got motivated. Blacks died everywhere they were taken, although some areas were worse to go than others.

We weren't bright enough to put our poop where it wouldn't get into our drinking water.

Every so often, real stupidity would break out, and one group would try to kill another and take their land.

Women had the rights of a piece of furniture. Sacajawea was, you know, a slave. Oh, they call her wife, but she was capture in a war raid from her family and sold to her "husband."

Being an orphan was a prescription to have your childhood suck, more so than an ordinary childhood, which was nothing we would recognize.

Being an orphan due to inherit something your uncles wanted was also not a good thing. See: Richard III.

Reading was a rare skill, even if your culture had a language.

You really didn't want to be born into the wrong tribe: for example, any tribe the Aztecs didn't like.

My point here? If you want to use historical suffering to make a point, take your pick. There's a lot to go around, and nobody's ancestors had clean hands. (Except the Ainu. Not sure if I've read anything they did.)

38 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:22:50am

re: #28 Alouette

That's a girl, not a guy.

Guy, girl....baby cuteness is gender neutral.

:)

39 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:22:57am

re: #35 Sergey Romanov

/prediction

You and me both! ;)

//

40 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:23:10am

Democide, genocide are real concepts and there are real experts who try and figure out death tolls from various events around the world through history. Whether it's the Mongol invasions of China (and then outward expansion), or even the Peloponnesian war, we can only guestimate the death tolls - even when provided by folks like Thucydides.

Much more recently, we have the Holocaust, and figures attributed to the Shoah have a range of 10% or so - and that's with pretty solid records.

Now try and figure out the death toll from an event that didn't have such widespread coverage, or one that was so widespread and diffuse over a period of years or centuries, that nailing down a precise figure or attribution to a particular group becomes much less certain? Slavery is a prime example.

Slavery was a widespread practice - not only by Muslims, but Arabs (a much larger group), any number of the hundreds of African tribes that treated the tribes they vanquished with slavery, and later on Europeans who capitalized on the trade to expand into America. Does someone who dies on an European slave ship count towards the European who shacked hundreds of slaves together in horrifying conditions or the tribe who captured the slave, or the religion of the tribesmen who captured that slave? For Geller's purposes, she's not above counting all of the above as Muslim victims.

And that's the least of her issues.

41 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:23:24am

re: #36 chunkymonkey

Do you ever get the feeling you're wasting your time with PG? She's obviously nuts. She writes stupid crap all the time. Why bother? If I spent my days with a blog noting all the crazy stuff extreme wing bloggers write every day I'd go mental.

Do you ever get the feeling that you're wasting your time posting comments like this?

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:23:39am

re: #36 chunkymonkey

Do you ever get the feeling you're wasting your time with PG? She's obviously nuts. She writes stupid crap all the time. Why bother? If I spent my days with a blog noting all the crazy stuff extreme wing bloggers write every day I'd go mental.

Actually, CM, this is a very widespread meme, so it's not particularly about Geller (tho about her too).

43 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:24:25am

re: #34 publicityStunted

Here's what is probably the most accurate estimate of deaths-through-massacres throughout the ages:

The 20 worst things people have done to each other

KHAAAANNNN!!!

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:24:53am

I'm just overwhelmed, as a history major and amateur historian, by the way these people approach history, especially the history of religion, chopping and cutting and redefining to get something that suits their political needs. Sometimes I respond by trying to show Christianity's death toll--especially if you use these sorts of dishonest definitions--but it gets you nowhere, they just assume that means you hate Christians.

And why not? They come up with these things because they hate Muslims. Only natural to assume that if you try to put things in context, it's out of hatred.

45 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:25:20am

re: #36 chunkymonkey

Do you ever get the feeling you're wasting your time with PG? She's obviously nuts. She writes stupid crap all the time. Why bother? If I spent my days with a blog noting all the crazy stuff extreme wing bloggers write every day I'd go mental.

Is that what happened....

46 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:25:27am

re: #40 lawhawk

Very true. And pseudoscholars such as Rudy Rummel, who are sometimes touted as authoritative, are muddying the waters even further.

47 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:27:10am

re: #46 Sergey Romanov

My only complaint about this otherwise extremely well-done Fisking, you should use the Google cache instead of direct linking to the Shrieking Harpie, why should she have the enjoyment of getting traffic from LGF?

48 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:29:43am

re: #47 Alouette

My only complaint about this otherwise extremely well-done Fisking, you should use the Google cache instead of direct linking to the Shrieking Harpie, why should she have the enjoyment of getting traffic from LGF?

I got complaints for linking to a YouTube video someone didn't like the other day.

49 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:31:19am

re: #47 Alouette

My only complaint about this otherwise extremely well-done Fisking, you should use the Google cache instead of direct linking to the Shrieking Harpie, why should she have the enjoyment of getting traffic from LGF?

I don't think cache influences traffic. The counters are still visible.

50 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:31:23am

re: #36 chunkymonkey

You ever get the feeling that we know you're deflecting?
;)

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:34:31am

re: #23 EmmmieG

Almost certainly. The odds are good that the 7th billion was a Han Chinese male.

Welcome to the world, Baby Zhang!!

52 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:35:27am
This was written by Bill French aka “Bill Warner” of “Center for the Study of Political Islam”

So Bill French is the "Bill Warner" who publicizes negative things about Geller's personal life? Is it out of "professional" jealousy?

53 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:35:46am

Oh, and without doing a whole lot of research, here's the total of Islamic slave trade according to one of the sites I've used in the past:

18th Century Slave Trade
Atlantic slave trade: ca. 5,000,000 transported and 8,100,000 died.
Islamic slave trade: ca. 1,300,000 transported and 2,000,000 died.

Pre-18th Century slave trade:

Ronald Segal, in Islam's Black Slaves, estimates the total number of African slaves shipped to the Muslim world at 11.5M-14M.

More on Segal's academic research into Islam and slavery here. Note however that Segal is highly critical of Islam and how it incorporated slavery into the household in a way that the Americas slave trade didn't :

Does the Koran specify how slaves should be treated?

The Koran is the key. The relationship between slave and master in Islam is a very different relationship from that between the American plantation laborer and owner. It was a much more personalized relationship and relatively benevolent. Everything here is relative — being a slave is being a slave and it shouldn’t be romanticized.

The institution of slavery is sanctioned in the Koran. To say that the Koran is in any way opposed to the institution of slavery would be wrong. It is never recommended, but it is influentially and explicitly benevolent in its attitude to the poor, the orphaned and slaves. And there is a specific injunction that to free a slave is an act of piety, which has its due reward in the other life.

Incidentally, what was absolutely outlawed in the Koran was to separate an infant or a young child from his mother.

So, instead of the 120 million that Geller ascribes to Islam for slavery, we've got perhaps about 10-15% of that figure.

54 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:35:53am

Vaguely related, but it has been bothering me for a bit.

At the extreme risk of looking like I'm supporting Pam, I do have to say that I'm not exactly a huge fan of referring to her (Or anyone, really) as a harpy.

I mean, she's scared, delusional, hateful, and prone to screaming about random things (To just scratch the surface), but I just tend to find the term harpy to come off as a bit, well, sexist. I guess I wonder if we can't call out her crazy in a way that perhaps avoid that.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:36:16am

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Zero.

No true Christian...

No true Christian, colonialism had nothing to do with Christianity, the Crusades were defensive, the conquest of South America was strictly financial, and anyway, Pam's personal reading of the Gospels tells her that Jesus wouldn't have approved, therefore it's not possible for anything bad to have been done in his name.

Period.

//

56 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:36:50am

re: #55 SanFranciscoZionist

No true Christian, colonialism had nothing to do with Christianity, the Crusades were defensive, the conquest of South America was strictly financial, and anyway, Pam's personal reading of the Gospels tells her that Jesus wouldn't have approved, therefore it's not possible for anything bad to have been done in his name.

Period.

//

Pam's read the New Testament?

57 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:37:09am

re: #41 Obdicut

Do you ever get the feeling that you're wasting your time posting comments like this?

I, for one, have never really been able to understand the thought process of a blog troll.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:37:10am

re: #36 chunkymonkey

Do you ever get the feeling you're wasting your time with PG? She's obviously nuts. She writes stupid crap all the time. Why bother? If I spent my days with a blog noting all the crazy stuff extreme wing bloggers write every day I'd go mental.

You have to limit yourself to the good ones. Pam is one of our special projects, because she has real-world influence, getting on mainstream media shows and such.

59 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:37:52am

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

You have to limit yourself to the good ones. Pam is one of our special projects, because she has real-world influence, getting on mainstream media shows and such.

And got her start here, which might be what the troll wanted to get to.

60 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:38:07am

re: #48 NJDhockeyfan

I got complaints for linking to a YouTube video someone didn't like the other day.

That was me, complaining that you were spreading the propaganda of a neo-nazi, yeah.

You presented it uncritically. If you're going to deconstruct and criticize it, as Sergey did here, you'll get no complaint from me.

61 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:39:18am

re: #60 Obdicut

That was me, complaining that you were spreading the propaganda of a neo-nazi, yeah.

You presented it uncritically. If you're going to deconstruct and criticize it, as Sergey did here, you'll get no complaint from me.

Oh please, it was on YouTube and I did criticize it.

62 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:39:35am

re: #52 wrenchwench

So Bill French is the "Bill Warner" who publicizes negative things about Geller's personal life? Is it out of "professional" jealousy?

I was wondering about that myself. If that's correct it's very strange.

63 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:39:58am

re: #36 chunkymonkey

Charles helped give Pam her start, and they were involved in PJ media at its outset before Charles broke with them. Pam has made things quite personal with Charles over Charles' refusal to go and support Pam when she joined up with the radical racists over in Europe (VB, etc.).

Now, she's got a big platform and gets lots of press from Fox News and others who ignore her links to these racist groups.

Therefore, she's a legitimate target for criticism.

64 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:40:35am

re: #61 NJDhockeyfan

Oh please, it was on YouTube and I did criticize it.

You did not criticize it in the comment you posted it in, only in subsequent comments.

65 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:40:49am

re: #52 wrenchwench

So Bill French is the "Bill Warner" who publicizes negative things about Geller's personal life? Is it out of "professional" jealousy?

It's not the "PI" Warner.

66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:42:14am

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration cut off funding for the U.N. cultural agency on Monday, after its member countries defied an American warning and approved a Palestinian bid for full membership.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

67 allegro  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:42:44am

It is very weird that I cannot connect with Google? Has anonymous hacked it or something?

68 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:43:05am

re: #53 lawhawk

Thanks, will be useful if anyone will attempt any sort of a "rebuttal".

69 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:43:14am

re: #54 Simply Sarah

Vaguely related, but it has been bothering me for a bit.

At the extreme risk of looking like I'm supporting Pam, I do have to say that I'm not exactly a huge fan of referring to her (Or anyone, really) as a harpy.

I mean, she's scared, delusional, hateful, and prone to screaming about random things (To just scratch the surface), but I just tend to find the term harpy to come off as a bit, well, sexist. I guess I wonder if we can't call out her crazy in a way that perhaps avoid that.

I'm trying to have sympathy for the sentiment you express, but Pam almost fails to deserve to be called human, much less female. And I try not to think that way, usually.

70 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:43:20am

re: #66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration cut off funding for the U.N. cultural agency on Monday, after its member countries defied an American warning and approved a Palestinian bid for full membership.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

wow.

71 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:43:56am

re: #61 NJDhockeyfan

Oh please, it was on YouTube and I did criticize it.

No, you didn't. I don't think you realized that the video you'd liked was from the neo-nazis themselves, though. You criticized the neo-nazi, but not the video that they made. That you simply presented, as is.

I'm not sure why this is still bugging you.

72 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:44:08am

re: #65 Sergey Romanov

It's not the "PI" Warner.

Thanks for the clarification.

73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:44:16am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Precisely with word I used when I read that.

74 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:44:23am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

wow.

Just another incident of Obama being anti-Israel.

Wait, what?

75 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:44:24am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I didn't expect anything else. It's in the rules.

76 garhighway  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:44:26am

re: #67 allegro

It is very weird that I cannot connect with Google? Had anonymous hacked it or something?

It's working for me. They have a pumpkin-carving video on their main page.

77 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:46:02am

re: #67 allegro

It is very weird that I cannot connect with Google? Had anonymous hacked it or something?

Try refreshing your DNS stuff.

78 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:46:36am

re: #75 Sergey Romanov

I didn't expect anything else. It's in the rules.

The article also points out that US funding had been suspended between Reagan and Bush II, though it doesn't say why exactly.

It'll be interesting to see if some other power steps in to address the US funding withdrawal. $60M is not all that much to score some political points.

79 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:46:59am

re: #74 Obdicut

Just another incident of Obama being anti-Israel.

Wait, what?

I'm sure that somehow the wingnuts will find a way to spin this into "Obama anti-Israel". I don't know how. But I don't doubt their abilities on this front.

80 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:47:54am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Federal law prohibits that funding - so not unexpected to say the least. UNESCO was warned this would happen. The US warned other countries voting that this would happen.

They put the politics of putting the PA in as a member over rational policymaking. They'd rather try and score points for the PA than realize that they're giving credence to a group that continues carrying out terror attacks on a near daily basis.

So now, UNESCO, which does serve a positive purpose in protecting international heritage sites, is about to lose $70 million for the current year, and an even greater amount in years ahead. Those sums are 22% of the group's operating budget. Don't expect the Arab League members to pony up the difference anytime soon, unless it means that they get to name Jewish historical sites within the territories as Palestinian international heritage sites. /wish I were kidding, but that's part of the goal.

81 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:47:59am

re: #66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration cut off funding for the U.N. cultural agency on Monday, after its member countries defied an American warning and approved a Palestinian bid for full membership.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Awesome...let the seething begin!

82 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:48:05am

re: #75 Sergey Romanov

I didn't expect anything else. It's in the rules.

Yep. Currently USAid to Gaza and the West Bank totals close to 4 billion since the early 90s. Additionally, Iran is a UNESCO member and has a cultural office in Tehran. Syria is also a member.

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:48:51am

re: #56 EmmmieG

Pam's read the New Testament?

I imagine she turns to Robert Spencer for his Cliff Notes.

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:49:22am
The U.S. will maintain its membership and participation in the body, Nuland said, though it was not immediately clear how that would work if it was no longer paying its share of the costs. UNESCO depends heavily on U.S. funding — Washington provides 22 percent of its budget —

Our "share" is over a fifth of the budget.

85 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:49:28am

re: #79 Sergey Romanov

I'm sure that somehow the wingnuts will find a way to spin this into "Obama anti-Israel". I don't know how. But I don't doubt their abilities on this front.

Means he's anti-Education, Science and Culture.

86 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:49:31am

re: #69 wrenchwench

I'm trying to have sympathy for the sentiment you express, but Pam almost fails to deserve to be called human, much less female. And I try not to think that way, usually.

Yeah, I know. I'm not saying I don't get the sentiment behind referring to her as that and I've been fighting internally over just ignoring it. In the end, though, I suppose my mind set on this is that exceptions shouldn't really be made even for the most outrageous and unsympathetic targets. Sort of a bright line rule, since otherwise you end up with subjective questions about where to draw the line.

Of course, these are just my feelings on the issue and I can't exactly force anyone else to agree or comply. Mostly I just felt I had to put my thoughts out there, if only for my own peace of mind.

87 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:49:39am

Washington is playing both sides of the fence as they always do.

88 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:50:11am

re: #78 iossarian

Bush II restored the US funding and involvement with UNESCO after 9/11. The funding was killed by Reagan after UNESCO's budget was found to be a mess (and the US was kicking in 25% of the annual funding). Bush restored the funding after fundamental reforms were instituted. However dating back to the Reagan years was the law prohibiting funding to organizations if they include the Palestinians before a peace deal with Israel.

89 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:50:33am

re: #86 Simply Sarah

I'm getting annoyed when she is getting called the b-word by liberals. It's sexist regardless of politics.

90 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:51:22am

re: #79 Sergey Romanov

I'm sure that somehow the wingnuts will find a way to spin this into "Obama anti-Israel". I don't know how. But I don't doubt their abilities on this front.

The HuffPo swamp is not happy with it. Here's one of the comments:

HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Sibil
242 Fans
3 minutes ago (2:46 PM)
So, it does appear that America is a puppet of the Zionists

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:51:44am

re: #85 Decatur Deb

They don't want us to pay for education, science and culture here, so how can they object if the President stops paying for them abroad?

I know, Obama is a Democrat.

92 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:52:11am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

Yes, we all know huffpo is not better on that count than youtube or yahoo.

93 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:52:23am

re: #80 lawhawk

Federal law prohibits that funding - so not unexpected to say the least. UNESCO was warned this would happen. The US warned other countries voting that this would happen.

They put the politics of putting the PA in as a member over rational policymaking. They'd rather try and score points for the PA than realize that they're giving credence to a group that continues carrying out terror attacks on a near daily basis.

So now, UNESCO, which does serve a positive purpose in protecting international heritage sites, is about to lose $70 million for the current year, and an even greater amount in years ahead. Those sums are 22% of the group's operating budget. Don't expect the Arab League members to pony up the difference anytime soon, unless it means that they get to name Jewish historical sites within the territories as Palestinian international heritage sites. /wish I were kidding, but that's part of the goal.

good points

94 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:52:23am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

The HuffPo swamp is not happy with it. Here's one of the comments:

One comment with 242 fans.

95 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:52:43am

All roads lead to the Huffington Post and Daily Kos.

//

96 garhighway  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:53:19am

re: #87 Gus 802

Washington is playing both sides of the fence as they always do.

If one side of the fence is "Palestine shouldn't be recognized as a nation before it makes peace with Israel", what is the other side of the fence that Washington is on? And who from Washington is on that other side of the fence?

I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm just curious. This seems like one of those few issues on which there is pretty broad consensus in the governing class.

97 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:53:43am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

The HuffPo swamp is not happy with it. Here's one of the comments:

Lefties at Dkos are gonna be pissed too.

98 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:53:46am

re: #94 Cannadian Club Akbar

One comment with 242 fans.

Here's another beauty...

HUFFPOST SUPER USER
wildcherry69
Dont push me cuz im close to the edge
176 Fans
3 minutes ago (2:45 PM)
America has been brought and paid for by Israel. What happened to the America that believed in freedom and a sense of fair play. The U.S is increasing­ly looking like a country who has lost it's moral compass and moral leadership­. UNESCO should tell the U.S to take it's money and shove it.

99 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:53:52am

re: #96 garhighway

If one side of the fence is "Palestine shouldn't be recognized as a nation before it makes peace with Israel", what is the other side of the fence that Washington is on? And who from Washington is on that other side of the fence?

I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm just curious. This seems like one of those few issues on which there is pretty broad consensus in the governing class.

I'll stick with the point Lawhawk made.

100 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:53:54am

re: #95 Gus 802

All roads lead to the Huffington Post and Daily Kos.

//

From what I read of DK, such a comment would be usually downdinged to non-existence there, despite a lot of anti-Israel kossacks. I don't know about the current situation.

101 Winny Spencer  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:54:07am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

The HuffPo swamp is not happy with it. Here's one of the comments:

Typical HuffPoo.

102 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:54:32am

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

I'm getting annoyed when she is getting called the b-word by liberals. It's sexist regardless of politics.

Yes. That's another example. I mean, I'm not going to pretend I'm faultless in this sort of thing, either, especially when I get really angry at something, but I think it's always good to try and check ourselves beforehand and review ourselves after the fact. And yeah, it often means significantly limiting the terms you can use to insult someone as a result.

Personally, I'm a work in progress. Lots of bad habits that need to be unlearned.

103 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:54:56am

re: #95 Gus 802

All roads lead to the Huffington Post and Daily Kos.

//

Can't wait to see the comments on FoxNation.
;)

104 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:55:18am

re: #103 Varek Raith

Can't wait to see the comments on FoxNation.
;)

I know I won't be looking.

105 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:55:45am

Don't look into the comments Egon!

I looked into the comments, Ray!

like most americans i get my info from network news.by the way i never heard any of this there once.and yes i dont feel very comfortible knowing that american poilitictions can be so easyly sweep aside for non american's i think we are letting the one world theary become one messed up world.and yes there are many people here who for monitary reasons look the other way while people do domestic terroism.just because a bomb didnt go off it doesnt mean americans aernt being harmed.look around we as a law and order kind seemed to have lost the intent of our laws and the civil order that comes from inforcing them.so yea i can see how money and influance would put muslims in charge of stuff most of us cant get jobs doing.i just read a articitle stating that the muslim's are infultrating our government.so i guess next we will all have to resite sharia law to get some government cheeze.lol

Wow. Someone needs a nap.

106 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:55:54am

re: #103 Varek Raith

Can't wait to see the comments on FoxNation.
;)

Whose day is it to suit up and survey Free Republic?

107 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:56:20am

Herman Cain announces his 6th position on Abortion for the month of October

After an exhausting number of flip flops on the issue, GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain once again changed his position on a woman’s right to choose. Asked at the National Press Club under what circumstances abortions should be allowed, Cain reiterated, “I am pro-life, from conception. End of story.” This is what he’s held all along. However, when asked whether he’d back legislation that bans abortions without exceptions, he said, “Yes I would.”

108 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:56:43am

re: #102 Simply Sarah

Yes. That's another example. I mean, I'm not going to pretend I'm faultless in this sort of thing, either, especially when I get really angry at something, but I think it's always good to try and check ourselves beforehand and review ourselves after the fact. And yeah, it often means significantly limiting the terms you can use to insult someone as a result.

Personally, I'm a work in progress. Lots of bad habits that need to be unlearned.

"Complex Sarah"!

109 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:57:13am

re: #101 Winny Spencer

Typical HuffPoo.

I noticed none of these idiots mentioned the rocket attacks on Israel the past few days.

110 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:57:43am

re: #106 Decatur Deb

What the hell.

To: raybbr

Watch for an Executive Order to change this...

Absolutely. Obama isn't going to let one of his core constituencies down.

111 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:58:12am

Just another excuse to jab on "hippies" and "lefties." It's irrelevant. Might as well go into the white pages and call up someone for their opinion.

By the way. The new CEO of Huffington Post is a Romney backer.

112 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:58:35am

re: #86 Simply Sarah

Yeah, I know. I'm not saying I don't get the sentiment behind referring to her as that and I've been fighting internally over just ignoring it. In the end, though, I suppose my mind set on this is that exceptions shouldn't really be made even for the most outrageous and unsympathetic targets. Sort of a bright line rule, since otherwise you end up with subjective questions about where to draw the line.

Of course, these are just my feelings on the issue and I can't exactly force anyone else to agree or comply. Mostly I just felt I had to put my thoughts out there, if only for my own peace of mind.

I concur with this. I just don't see how name calling, odd nick naming, etc. adds to the discussion beyond the emotional impact of using it. And that arguably detracts from discussing the issue or statement that was made.

Not to mention it provides an "out" by allowing someone to start arguing about that usage and deflect the conversation from there.

113 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:58:41am

re: #105 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Don't look into the comments Egon!

I looked into the comments, Ray!

Wow. Someone needs a nap.

A nap. A spell check. The ability to understand capital letters and punctuation....

114 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:58:48am

re: #110 Varek Raith

What the hell.

Well, there you go.

115 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:00:28pm
Y2KCockroach
232 Fans
32 minutes ago (2:26 PM)
UNESCO spends $300 million dollars per year protecting historic heritage sites, improving world literacy, promoting access to schooling for girls, and cultural understand­ing.

The United States spends $300 million dollars per day bombing Afghan citizens, building schools that have sewage flowing out of light sockets, paving roads that crumble inside of a year, bribing war-lords, and handing out soccer balls to children who hate us....

We definitely have our finger on the pulse of this one...

Ha ha ha That took incredible effort to make up some screwy shit.

116 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:00:45pm

And I realize it's a bummer for some people but in a democracy you will get different opinions. Now, one needn't phrase it like this idiot did saying that "the USA is a puppet of Zionists". But the American people should not feel compelled or forced to agree with the actions of the Executive branch. You can't keep screaming about "democracy for the Middle East" then turn around and complain when people express their opinions here. It's not morally consistent.

117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:00:48pm

re: #113 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did you ever figure out what in the hell he/she was saying?

I copied it for the entertainment value.

118 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:01:04pm

Well. I guess this thread's been hijacked.

119 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:01:35pm

Welcome to Blogmocracy.

120 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:02:03pm

re: #116 Gus 802

I, for one, promise not to vote for the Huffington Post to be elected to any office.

121 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:02:06pm

re: #118 Gus 802

Well. I guess this thread's been hijacked.

Frank Gafney blames that on the Muslim Brotherhood.

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:02:46pm

re: #118 Gus 802

Sorry. I thought it was a big deal. My bad.

(Do I have to talk about Pam?)

123 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:02:51pm

Koskidz: I/P US and Israel would rather kill off UNESCO or damage it rather than have PA become a member.

Whatever good work in the world the US thought UNESCO was doing, it is prepared to damage or destroy the ability to do that work unless the US and Israel get their way. This is straight out financial blackmail.

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:02:53pm

re: #119 Gus 802

Welcome to Blogmocracy.

C'mon, friend. Taking it too seriously :)

125 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:02:54pm

re: #119 Gus 802

Welcome to Blogmocracy.

Blogmocracy?

Nope, Chuck Testa.

126 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:03:30pm

re: #117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did you ever figure out what in the hell he/she was saying?

I copied it for the entertainment value.

runonsentenceshurtmyeyesreallybadomgisthatasnickersbarilikechocolatedoesithavenugetilikenugettoo

127 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:03:42pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry. I thought it was a big deal. My bad.

(Do I have to talk about Pam?)

Yes, didn't you read the rule book?

128 Winny Spencer  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:04:29pm

re: #118 Gus 802

Well. I guess this thread's been hijacked.

Yeah, good job.

129 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:05:13pm

re: #126 Cannadian Club Akbar

I ran out of room and the sentence didn't jump down to the next line. d'oh!!

130 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:05:26pm

re: #115 NJDhockeyfan

HOW do you cause sewage to flow from light sockets?

131 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:05:49pm

re: #130 EmmmieG

HOW do you cause sewage to flow from light sockets?

Install them on the floor.

132 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:05:52pm

re: #88 lawhawk

Thanks for the details.

133 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:06:03pm

re: #130 EmmmieG

HOW do you cause sewage to flow from light sockets?

You hire KBR to build them.

134 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:06:12pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry. I thought it was a big deal. My bad.

(Do I have to talk about Pam?)

Easy save. What does Pam G think about the UNESCO embargo?

135 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:06:23pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry. I thought it was a big deal. My bad.

(Do I have to talk about Pam?)

The specific topic is a big deal. The Huff Po garbage is irrelevant.

136 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:06:40pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Koskidz: I/P US and Israel would rather kill off UNESCO or damage it rather than have PA become a member.

israel not only doesn't recognize palestine's (13+ / 0-)
right to exist, not only does it prevent palestine from existing, it won't even define its own borders.

by wu ming on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:44:48 AM PDT

also didn't the PLO or Fatah as its successor (6+ / 0-)
acknowledge Israel's right to exist some time ago on 11/15/1988? [Link: israelipalestinian.procon.org...]

Bibi has raised the stakes by now demanding that the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in perpetuity, without explaining what he means by a Jewish state

by entlord on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 07:41:46 AM PDT

Brilliant!

//

137 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:07:26pm

Cain: 'This Many White People Can't Pretend They Like Me'

1) He's overlooking the fact he's not Obama.
2) He's acknowledging the fact the TP is predominantly white.

138 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:07:38pm

re: #120 Obdicut

I, for one, promise not to vote for the Huffington Post to be elected to any office.

Don't Worry. As OWS told us, this anti-Israel sentiment is manufactured by the neocon Zionist Lobby to frame liberals.
/

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:07:43pm

re: #106 Decatur Deb

Whose day is it to suit up and survey Free Republic?

I'll look, but someone else needs to find it. I can't navigate Free Republic, it confuses me.

140 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:08:38pm

re: #134 Decatur Deb

Easy save. What does Pam G think about the UNESCO embargo?

She loves it, and somehow feels that the GOP should 'beat Obama over the head with it", though, I'm not sure how that'd work.

141 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:08:44pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

I'll look, but someone else needs to find it. I can't navigate Free Republic, it confuses me.

I can navigate FR, yet it still confuses me. Something that stupid certainly can't really exist in this universe, can it?

142 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:09:08pm

re: #108 wrenchwench

"Complex Sarah"!

Oh how I sometimes wish that wasn't so true!

143 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:09:33pm

I guess something that stupid can exist in this universe, if this up-coming made-for-SyFy movie is any example:

[Link: www.worstpreviews.com...]

144 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:09:45pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

I'll look, but someone else needs to find it. I can't navigate Free Republic, it confuses me.

I only look at caches, to prevent STD (Stupidity Transmitted Digitally).

145 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:09:57pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

Don't Worry. As OWS told us, this anti-Israel sentiment is manufactured by the neocon Zionist Lobby to frame liberals.
/

I don't recall OWS telling me anything, actually. But, um, nice work bringing OWS into the discussion out of nowhere, I guess?

146 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:10:34pm

re: #124 Sergey Romanov

You're probably gonna get a lot of hits on this one. My tweet about it just got retweeted by two other people, one with with 2,400+ followers and the other with 7,000+.

147 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:10:50pm

Classic.
When you can't comment on the topic of the OP, bring up HuffPo!

148 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:11:21pm

re: #147 Varek Raith

Classic.
When you can't comment on the topic of the OP, bring up HuffPo!

Simple minds.

149 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:12:04pm

re: #145 Obdicut

I don't recall OWS telling me anything, actually. But, um, nice work bringing OWS into the discussion out of nowhere, I guess?

Image: perfect-score-10-out-of-10.jpg

150 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:12:12pm

This is what Geller says about the UNESCO stuff:

These are the monsters created in Obama's post-American world. The idea that a terror statelet whose entire reason for being is annihilation and genocide would be voted a member of the UN cultural and educational agency says more about the state of the UN today than anything.

"Palestine" is the stolen name of the state of Israel. Its sole contribution to humanity is the scourge of modern-day terrorism. It is also now a full member of The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. Just last week, the leaders of the PA said that they would never recognize the Jewish state, and as their reward? Full membership in UNESCO. You just can't make this stuff up.

This is clearly the work of the modern universal caliphate, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation. Thanks again to Obama, who has successfully rendered America impotent in these matters. What a horror he is.

Every single penny of American freedom-loving, life-loving dollars should be withdrawn from the UN immediately.

This is one to watch. The Republicans should relentlessly beat the O-campaign over the head with this one. Is someone in the GOP making a list of his monstrous failures? Obama has singlehandedly done more to diminish American influence and dismantle the power structure in the world that was in favor of the good and the free than any of our enemies ever could. It is, in a word, breathtaking.

And then an update:

The decision of the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization to approve full membership for Palestine provides America an opportunity not only to halt its funding of the organization but to withdraw entirely — and permanently. The halt in funding is required by a law passed by Congress in the 1990s and signed by President Clinton. Unesco was warned of this consequence by Mr. Clinton’s wife, Secretary of State Clinton, shortly before Unesco took its vote. Her warning had a kind of rueful tone. The better way to look at it is a chance for America to extricate itself once and for all from an agency that has defined repeated efforts at reform.

Which kind of carefully avoids noting that we have, in fact, withdrawn funding, and claims that Clinton didn't really want to.

Bee-zare.

151 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:12:23pm

re: #143 freetoken

I guess something that stupid can exist in this universe, if this up-coming made-for-SyFy movie is any example:

[Link: www.worstpreviews.com...]

LOL. I would never watch this, but I would skim through it!

152 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:12:43pm

re: #146 CuriousLurker

Wow. Who?

153 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:12:53pm

re: #147 Varek Raith

Classic.
When you can't comment on the topic of the OP, bring up HuffPo!

Dibs on Jimmy Carter and Jane Fonda.

154 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:13:16pm

re: #153 iossarian

Dibs on Jimmy Carter and Jane Fonda.

John Kerry!
Earth First!
Igloo White!

155 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:14:38pm

Hey Iceweasel! You there? Open up your Gmail.

156 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:14:50pm

re: #150 Obdicut

"Palestine" is the stolen name of the state of Israel.

Actually, Pam, "Palestine" is from the Roman word to indicate the "Land of the Philistines". So, in reality, Pam has stolen it from the Romans who stole it from the Philistines.

157 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:14:54pm

re: #154 Gus 802

John Kerry!
Earth First!
Igloo White!

CODE PINK BINGO AAAARRGHHHH!!!

158 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:15:12pm

re: #152 Sergey Romanov

One was Loonwatch. The other was some Muslim guy.

159 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:15:21pm

re: #154 Gus 802

SOROS!

160 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:15:30pm

re: #150 Obdicut

Are American dollars still freedom-loving and life-loving if they came from the Massey mine where the miners died?

161 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:15:37pm

re: #157 iossarian

CODE PINK BINGO AAARRGHHH!!!

Robert Byrd! I iz gunna troll the Kos Kidz and "wax moonbat"!

//

162 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:15:59pm

re: #154 Gus 802

John Kerry!
Earth First!
Igloo White!

Igloo White? Do igloos come in any other color?

163 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:16:13pm

Gah, gotta get back to work. BBL

164 garhighway  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:16:17pm

re: #159 freetoken

SOROS!

I'll call your Soros and raise you an Alinsky.

165 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:16:24pm

re: #162 NJDhockeyfan

Igloo White? Do igloos come in any other color?

Yes, inedible colors.

166 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:17:06pm

re: #164 garhighway

I'll call your Soros and raise you an Alinsky.

MARX!

Trumps almost anything.

167 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:17:26pm

re: #166 freetoken

No, Trump's still in the discussion. /

168 The Left  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:17:37pm

re: #155 Gus 802

Hey Iceweasel! You there? Open up your Gmail.

Can't. Talking to a friend in my other gmail account. Which I'll have to send you! check your mail in a minute. :)

169 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:17:47pm

re: #166 freetoken

MARX!

Trumps almost anything.

Groucho, Zeppo, or Harpo?

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:18:27pm

re: #125 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Blogmocracy?

Nope, Chuck Testa.

I cannot explain why I continue to grin widely every time Chuck Testa is mentioned, but I do. Chuck Testa makes me happy.

171 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:18:41pm

Excuse me while I cloward my piven.

172 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:18:49pm

re: #162 NJDhockeyfan

Igloo White? Do igloos come in any other color?

Depends on where the huskies are staked out, and what the polar bears have been recently eating.
/

173 garhighway  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:19:04pm

re: #166 freetoken

MARX!

Trumps almost anything.

Except his toup.

174 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:19:07pm

re: #166 freetoken

MARX!

Trumps almost anything.

Since you brought up communists preaching violent Marxist Revolution....

OWS camp gets really commie-cal

Alex Callinicos, a professor of European Studies at Kings College in London, announced to his rapt audience, “I am a Marxist.’’

Asked if the upcoming revolution can be non-violent, he parroted the party line of the demonstrators, who call themselves the 99 percent of Americans lined up against the “1 percent’’ with power and money.

He said violence could be avoided only if the “1 percent accept the decisions of the 99 percent,’’ which he predicted would never happen.

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:19:37pm

re: #134 Decatur Deb

Easy save. What does Pam G think about the UNESCO embargo?

It's not going far enough to prevent the spread of sharia worldwide.

That's what Pam thinks.

176 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:19:42pm

re: #160 Obdicut

Are American dollars still freedom-loving and life-loving if they came from the Massey mine where the miners died?

Those are the best kind.

*intones to the tune, "O Tanenbaum*":

The people's cash is verdant green
It has a lovely, soylent sheen.
It keeps its shape through many folds,
It's backed by mounds of precious gold.

So keep the greenbacks flowing free,
To Kapital we'll servants be!
Though liberals fret and lefties curse,
We know that socialism's worse.

177 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:20:30pm

re: #150 Obdicut

This is what Geller says about the UNESCO stuff:

And then an update:

Which kind of carefully avoids noting that we have, in fact, withdrawn funding, and claims that Clinton didn't really want to.

Bee-zare.

So, trick-or-treating for UNICEF tonight is out?

178 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:20:56pm

re: #166 freetoken

MARX!

Trumps almost anything.

Start asking him obscure English football questions!

179 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:21:39pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Come on man, the NYPost?

180 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:22:25pm
Alexander Theodore Callinicos (born 24 July 1950, Southern Rhodesia - now Zimbabwe) is a Trotskyist political theorist, a member of the Central Committee of the Socialist Workers Party and its International Secretary, and is Director of the Centre for European Studies at King's College London. He is also editor of International Socialism, the Socialist Workers Party's theoretical journal.

So, he's a bit like Hitchens./

181 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:22:31pm

re: #177 wrenchwench

So, trick-or-treating for UNICEF tonight is out?

'S OK, as long as they're not dressed as Zombie Arafat.

182 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:23:29pm

re: #181 Decatur Deb

'S OK, as long as they're not dressed as Zombie Arafat.

I'm Zombie Bin Laden.
DEATH TO ZIONIST HEAVEN!

Or something.

183 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:23:39pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout


Did you bother to read the story? 50 people listened to him.

The others didn't.

While he was speaking about the revolution, most of the demonstrators in Zuccotti Park were making plans for a long, cold winter.

And really, how do you reconcile your love of Hitchens and your constant harping about Marxist thought at OWS?

184 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:23:49pm

re: #180 Sergey Romanov

So, he's a bit like Hitchens./

Ha! That's a fact.

Guess that means Hitchens is going on the Black List™ too.

185 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:24:56pm

re: #182 Varek Raith

I'm Zombie Bin Laden.
DEATH TO ZIONIST HEAVEN!

Or something.

Zombie Bin Laden speaks with baited breath.

186 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:25:24pm

Heh, this guy has something to say on violence:

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

Alex Callinicos & Alastair Hatchett
In Defence of Violence
(September 1977)

187 makeitstop  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:25:53pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Come on man, the NYPost?

Any anti-OWS source is a good source.
/

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:26:00pm

re: #135 Gus 802

The specific topic is a big deal. The Huff Po garbage is irrelevant.

I disagree about the HuffPo garbage's irrelevency, but getting back to the subject at hand: what to do? Leaving the left and their warped histories out of this, the right is making an increasing weapon of specialized, ideological, fake takes on history. 'The Untold Murders of Islam' is part of it, as is 'The Founders Wanted Us To Be A Christian Theocracy'.

My problem is that the honest way to address this is with historical nuance, detail, understanding, realism, and ambiguity, and these are all boring as hell, compared to the "Muslims did it!" approach.

This is not a 'No nukes, no nukes!' "MORE nukes, MORE nukes!" kind of situation. My answer to 'Islam is THE imperialist religion, which killed more people than ANYTHING' can't be 'No, Christianity is!' or "Hinduism is!", but instead, "History isn't like that, and neither are major world religions. No one-size-fits-all theory like this holds much water, except as a conduit for modern political gripes."

How can we approach this? Who should we be speaking to? What about?

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:26:39pm

re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cain: 'This Many White People Can't Pretend They Like Me'

1) He's overlooking the fact he's not Obama.
2) He's acknowledging the fact the TP is predominantly white.

I'm white, and I cannot pretend to like Herman Cain.

I'm not sure my race, or his, is relevent to this discussion, but indeed, I do not love thee, Mr. Cain.

190 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:26:56pm

Meanwhile, on Twitter:
[Link: twitter.com...]

191 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:27:08pm

In actually important news:

Japan Intervenes on Yen

After keeping the market waiting for more than a week, the Japanese government launched a new foreign-exchange intervention on Monday, Finance Minister Jun Azumi said, moving to cap a continued rise in the yen that is undermining the economy and dragging down the key export sector.

It was the first time since Aug. 4 that Japan has stepped into the market to weaken the yen.

The intervention came after the dollar fell to a post-World War II record low of ¥75.31 in early Asian trading.

Good grief, I hadn't realized the exchange rate had dropped so much. I probably couldn't afford to live in Japan like I used do (with income from US dollars) as I would have lost almost half my purchasing power.

The international economy is getting really weird and I think part of the problem is that the US is not getting it's national budget in order. Congress is just sitting on its thumbs instead of doing what is necessary to bring expenditures and revenues into equilibrium. Indeed, the rating agencies are floating stories again about how they'll have to do another downgrade of US debt if Congress doesn't do something.

192 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:27:20pm

And the various UN sub-groups appear to be going further and further into "elementary school student council" land.*

Maybe it's a jobs opportunity for the US to push funding over to the State Department (or whatever the appropriate government is) to carry out programs independently of the UN. JOBS!

Yes, it's wasteful to perform parallel to the UN programs, and there are probably governments whose citizens need aid that will be refused since it is from the imperialist West, but at some point if the UN groups want to play games we work without them.

* - You know, the elected group given decision-making powers up to the point that they make a decision on something meaningful that the supervising adults don't agree with.

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:27:37pm

re: #186 Sergey Romanov

In the end, the only real answer to the violence of ruling-class power is the organised power of the working class. Grunwick and Lewisham both hammer home the lesson that the state exists solely to defend the interests of the capitalist class. Workers fighting to preserve their own living standards and organisations at a time of crisis like the present will increasingly be confronted with the violence of the capitalist state. To defeat that violence will require, one day, a decisive test of strength between the forces of the state and a workers’ movement ready to engage in the armed struggle for political power. The road to that struggle lies through determined efforts to build a revolutionary socialist party based on the organised strength of rank-and-file workers. That is why the struggle in the workplaces is so closely connected to the struggle against the fascists.

194 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:27:56pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

I disagree about the HuffPo garbage's irrelevency, but getting back to the subject at hand: what to do? Leaving the left and their warped histories out of this, the right is making an increasing weapon of specialized, ideological, fake takes on history. 'The Untold Murders of Islam' is part of it, as is 'The Founders Wanted Us To Be A Christian Theocracy'.

My problem is that the honest way to address this is with historical nuance, detail, understanding, realism, and ambiguity, and these are all boring as hell, compared to the "Muslims did it!" approach.

This is not a 'No nukes, no nukes!' "MORE nukes, MORE nukes!" kind of situation. My answer to 'Islam is THE imperialist religion, which killed more people than ANYTHING' can't be 'No, Christianity is!' or "Hinduism is!", but instead, "History isn't like that, and neither are major world religions. No one-size-fits-all theory like this holds much water, except as a conduit for modern political gripes."

How can we approach this? Who should we be speaking to? What about?

Unitarians, about pot luck dinners.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:28:02pm

re: #147 Varek Raith

Classic.
When you can't comment on the topic of the OP, bring up HuffPo!

C'mon, no one minds when I pull endless horrible quotes from Freep, or Hot Air, or Fox.

196 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:28:47pm

re: #195 SanFranciscoZionist

C'mon, no one minds when I pull endless horrible quotes from Freep, or Hot Air, or Fox.

Ture, but you don't do it to deflect the thread.
;)

197 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:28:59pm

re: #191 freetoken

In actually important news:

Japan Intervenes on Yen

Good grief, I hadn't realized the exchange rate had dropped so much. I probably couldn't afford to live in Japan like I used do (with income from US dollars) as I would have lost almost half my purchasing power.

The international economy is getting really weird and I think part of the problem is that the US is not getting it's national budget in order. Congress is just sitting on its thumbs instead of doing what is necessary to bring expenditures and revenues into equilibrium. Indeed, the rating agencies are floating stories again about how they'll have to do another downgrade of US debt if Congress doesn't do something.

This is why Congress is handling the downturn in largely the same way Japan did theirs a couple decades ago, right?
/

198 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:29:37pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

I cannot explain why I continue to grin widely every time Chuck Testa is mentioned, but I do. Chuck Testa makes me happy.

Chuck Testa brings joy to all.

199 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:31:00pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

He forgot the part about many--hell most black people cannot pretend to like him either.

200 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:31:38pm

re: #191 freetoken

The deficit commission is supposed to be reporting shortly, and Congress will either have to vote up/down on whatever the commission agreed to, or they'll have to accept across the board cuts. Either way, there's going to be some serious cuts in major programs to bring spending down.

Only question is whether the commission includes tax hikes or other measures to increase revenues (adjusting tax credits/deductions etc.)

201 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:31:51pm

re: #193 Sergey Romanov

I think it is important to criticise and shine light on these guys. There shouldn't be overgeneralizations. But if various bona fide Commies try to latch onto this, they may as well succeed if there's no pushback.

202 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:32:12pm

re: #196 Varek Raith

Ture, but you don't do it to deflect the thread.
;)

Then again, I'm probably being unfair to NJ.

203 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:32:24pm

re: #198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Image: 8vw1g.jpg

204 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:34:29pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Come on man, the NYPost?

NY Post, HUffpoo, Dkos, etc. It doesn't matter. Apologists will always complain. It's not like we haven't seen videos of such speeches at OWS before. It's perfectly plausible and probably true. I don't think it's helpful to whitewash what's going on at OWS.

205 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:35:03pm

re: #200 lawhawk

The deficit commission is supposed to be reporting shortly, and Congress will either have to vote up/down on whatever the commission agreed to, or they'll have to accept across the board cuts. Either way, there's going to be some serious cuts in major programs to bring spending down.

Only question is whether the commission includes tax hikes or other measures to increase revenues (adjusting tax credits/deductions etc.)

At this point, I get the feeling they'll either come up with nothing or it'll contain only massive cuts to important programs as well as probably throwing in tax cuts for businesses and the rich (Since it's always a good time for those!) that all will end up making things worse instead of better if actually passed. Alternatively, there could be some superficial tax/revenue increases at the cost of even deeper cuts or excessive concessions on other issues.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:35:11pm

re: #196 Varek Raith

Ture, but you don't do it to deflect the thread.
;)

True, but that only speaks to my willingness to join the mob, rather than oppose it.

Also, my endless fondness for the Freepers, which I envision as tribble-like things with big eyes.

207 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:35:44pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

NY Post, HUffpoo, Dkos, etc. It doesn't matter. Apologists will always complain. It's not like we haven't seen videos of such speeches at OWS before. It's perfectly plausible and probably true. I don't think it's helpful to whitewash what's going on at OWS.

Apologists for what? Apologists for whatever "Killgore Trout" disagrees with?

208 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:35:51pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

NY Post, HUffpoo, Dkos, etc. It doesn't matter. Apologists will always complain. It's not like we haven't seen videos of such speeches at OWS before. It's perfectly plausible and probably true. I don't think it's helpful to whitewash what's going on at OWS.

What's the opposite of whitewashing, and is that unhelpful too?

209 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:36:22pm

OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!
Liberals Create Video In Which They Violently Murder "Republicans" (Warning, Graphic)
The subject is a ridiculously over-the-top zombie spoof churned up by someone or another to sell some politically themed merchandise. It will incite noone to do anything but point and laugh at the amateurish production. Really NSFW though.

210 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:36:33pm

re: #186 Sergey Romanov

Heh, this guy has something to say on violence:

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

Alex Callinicos & Alastair Hatchett
In Defence of Violence
(September 1977)

I googled looking for video of his speech at OWS. No OWS video but plenty of other stuff. The guy's a radical dickweed.

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:36:43pm

re: #208 iossarian

What's the opposite of whitewashing, and is that unhelpful too?

"Tarring" is usually the term used.

212 makeitstop  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:36:51pm

Note to Tennessee State Troopers: If you try to gin up charges against an Occupy protester, make sure it's not a reporter who's taping the attempt.

213 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:37:05pm

re: #203 Obdicut

Image: 8vw1g.jpg

Image: 353pgh.jpg

214 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:37:07pm

re: #210 Killgore Trout

That he is.

215 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:37:12pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

I entirely believe 50 people listened to the communist give a talk.

What do you mean by 'apologists'?

And again:

How do you reconcile your fondness of Hitchens with your criticism of OWS for tolerating Marxists?

216 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:37:30pm

re: #197 Simply Sarah

Yes, political intransigence in the face of changing times.

One really big thing happening, and this is 180 degrees counter to the Tea Partying meme - is that America is not "exceptional" but just one of many actors on the world stage.

And, this is becoming more evident every day. The longer the American-centric post-WWII international structure resists in elevating the role of the rest of the world in executing global responsibility the greater the disconnect between the real flow of resources and people and products versus the monetary system (based on US dollars) will become.


re: #200 lawhawk

If Congress fails to raise taxes (of some sort) then it has failed to do one of its primary Constitutional duties. Congress is explicitly endowed with the ability to tax for the very reason taxes are necessary for civilization.

217 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:37:49pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but that only speaks to my willingness to join the mob, rather than oppose it.

Also, my endless fondness for the Freepers, which I envision as tribble-like things with big eyes.

More like:

Image: frogchachi-tree-frogs.jpg

218 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:38:11pm

re: #200 lawhawk

The deficit commission is supposed to be reporting shortly, and Congress will either have to vote up/down on whatever the commission agreed to, or they'll have to accept across the board cuts. Either way, there's going to be some serious cuts in major programs to bring spending down.

Only question is whether the commission includes tax hikes or other measures to increase revenues (adjusting tax credits/deductions etc.)

My expectation is no workable agreement out of the committee, thus triggering the across the board large cuts.

Followed a week later by the House passing a bill putting all the cut defense spending back in.

At this point it becomes win-win for them:
1. If the Senate stops it the Democrats get blamed and called soft on defense.
2. If the Senate passes it and Obama vetoes it he gets blamed and called soft on defense.
3. If the Senate passes it and Obama signs it they got everything they wanted and complicity from the Democratic Party in gutting the social programs.

219 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:38:59pm

re: #217 Decatur Deb

More like:

Image: frogchachi-tree-frogs.jpg

ALL GLORY TO TREE FROGS!

220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:39:36pm

re: #209 Shiplord Kirel

OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!
Liberals Create Video In Which They Violently Murder "Republicans" (Warning, Graphic)
The subject is a ridiculously over-the-top zombie spoof churned up by someone or another to sell some politically themed merchandise. It will incite noone to do anything but point and laugh at the amateurish production. Really NSFW though.

Ugh. This is ridiculous and over the top, but if these were "rednecks" mowing down liberal zombies, what would we say?

221 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:39:47pm

re: #218 oaktree

I am not impressed by how the Democrats (especially in the Senate, but also Obama) have handled this. We as a nation really need some clear voices articulating a national domestic agenda.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:39:52pm

re: #217 Decatur Deb

More like:

Image: frogchachi-tree-frogs.jpg

Awww. That would work as well. I imagine them going "Freep, freep, freep" in little cute voices.

223 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:40:02pm

re: #220 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. This is ridiculous and over the top, but if these were "rednecks" mowing down liberal zombies, what would we say?

LMAO is what I say to both.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:40:19pm

re: #220 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. This is ridiculous and over the top, but if these were "rednecks" mowing down liberal zombies, what would we say?

I reckon we'd object.

225 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:40:34pm

If an actual communist showed up at Occupy Lubbock, they would build a fence around him and charge people to come in and gawk before transferring him to an endangered species habitat.

226 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:40:47pm

re: #221 freetoken

I am not impressed by how the Democrats (especially in the Senate, but also Obama) have handled this. We as a nation really need some clear voices articulating a national domestic agenda.

I should have added at the end: "... other than the atavistic throwback to theocracy articulated by the current GOP."

227 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:41:33pm

hrmmm. Boeing is building spaceships now, so the psychic vision of Kubrick was only 10 years off.

//

228 garhighway  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:41:40pm

re: #223 Varek Raith

LMAO is what I say to both.

I am Ok with killing zombies of all political persuasions.

229 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:41:49pm

re: #220 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. This is ridiculous and over the top, but if these were "rednecks" mowing down liberal zombies, what would we say?

That film exists.

230 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:41:52pm

re: #215 Obdicut

How do you reconcile your fondness of Hitchens with your criticism of OWS for tolerating Marxists?

I don't take finanical or economic advice from Hitchens. Although Hitch is quite a character I'm not much of a fan. My Hitch avatars are as much of a spoof of him as a dig at religion. It's all in good fun.

231 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:44:16pm

7 Scientific Reasons a Zombie Outbreak Would Fail

232 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:44:56pm

re: #231 Varek Raith

7 Scientific Reasons a Zombie Outbreak Would Fail

Yeah, yeah, console yourself.

233 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:45:52pm

Image: 97779.jpg

234 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:46:30pm

Well, at least I now know about Chuck Testa.

Another internet meme, mastered.

235 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:46:48pm

re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist

"Tarring" is usually the term used.

The fancy term for that is "denigrating".

236 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:46:59pm

re: #233 Varek Raith

Image: 97779.jpg

But, but, magma *is* the universal solution!

237 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:47:05pm

We, the United States, have been playing by a special set of rules for over 60 years. We were considered the lender of last resort and with that guarantee we could extract international agreements and binational agreements in our favor, time after time.

We can't do that anymore. After WWII we were half of the world economic flow and also the reigning military power, and while the latter was challenged for a while by the USSR, even that challenge passed.

Well, guess what. We now are being challenged in economic dominance by another country, which will soon pass us by in economic power, but just as important the rest of the developing nations in total also will pass us by. We're heading towards a world where we are 4% of the population and instead of half of the world's GDP something like 10% (projected to be reached over the next couple of decades - US GDP is currently a bit over 20% of the world GDP.)

We can't play by special rules anymore.

Something the revanchists fear.

And, it's something we all have to take on board, because we all need to change our lifestyles to accommodate new realities.

238 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:47:19pm

re: #220 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. This is ridiculous and over the top, but if these were "rednecks" mowing down liberal zombies, what would we say?

Though as somewhat of a counterpoint I may point to the "Die Hippie Die" episode of SP, to which not many people seemed to have objected.

239 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:47:47pm

re: #236 oaktree

But, but, magma *is* the universal solution!

Image: UPM87ext_nationlava--screenshot_large.jpg

240 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:48:20pm

re: #235 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The fancy term for that is "denigrating".

Temptress.

241 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:48:59pm

re: #231 Varek Raith

7 Scientific Reasons a Zombie Outbreak Would Fail

Obviously the article's writer either has never read the Survival Guide or is in on the propaganda campaign.

/

242 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:49:46pm

re: #240 Decatur Deb

Temptress.

?

243 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:49:59pm

re: #230 Killgore Trout

Really? You're not a fan of Hitchens? Okay. I'd gotten a rather different impression.

Are you at all relieved that only about 50 people bothered to listen to the communist speaker at OWS?

244 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:50:16pm

re: #212 makeitstop

Note to Tennessee State Troopers: If you try to gin up charges against an Occupy protester, make sure it's not a reporter who's taping the attempt.

If you push a cop off his motorcycle then get arrested it will get videotaped as well.

Youtube Video
245 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:51:16pm

re: #220 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. This is ridiculous and over the top, but if these were "rednecks" mowing down liberal zombies, what would we say?

No violence, but this one is pretty funny, and a real classic besides.

Youtube Video

In this one, lib-zombies are set on fire. Night of the Living Democrats (from 2008)

Youtube Video
246 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:52:00pm

re: #242 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Punchline for a handful of redneck jokes. (I can't leave the state every time I want a haircut.)

247 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:53:16pm

They're coming to get you, Barbara...

248 makeitstop  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:55:18pm

re: #244 NJDhockeyfan

If you push a cop off his motorcycle then get arrested it will get videotaped as well.

[Video]

So, no comment on the trumped up charges, just a video having nothing to do with the subject at hand? Cool.

249 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:56:00pm

re: #237 freetoken

I've never done the historical research but I presume the British media/literature in the late 40s (and 50s?) and presumably the French media/literature as well in a similar time period are full of hand-wringing as well as their economic and cultural dominance came to an end.

And if the record keeping was good enough I bet there would be editorials from the Sumerian Times, Babylonian Gazette, and Rome Post on the same subject.

250 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:56:29pm

re: #243 Obdicut

Really? You're not a fan of Hitchens? Okay. I'd gotten a rather different impression.

It's a strawman erected by people who want to discredit my criticism of OWS. Don't believe everything you read about me.

Are you at all relieved that only about 50 people bothered to listen to the communist speaker at OWS?

My last big scoop was Breitbart's violent fantasies in front of a Tea Party crowd. Probably no more than 20 people in his audience and that went viral all over the internet. When I found that video it had 3 views, probably up to a couple 100 thousand views by now. I see no reason to treat the Tea Party and different than OWS. I know a lot of people find that shocking.

251 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:59:04pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I know a lot of people find that shocking.

I've had a portable defibrillator at the ready while reading you since OWS started!!
//

252 freetoken  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:59:43pm

re: #249 oaktree

After WWII the UK and France were both rather poor. Conditions in the UK were pretty bad from what I've read or heard (from people discussing their past.) For example, rationing was still ongoing after WWII.

Indeed, until the North Sea oil boom the UK was a bit of an example of an underperforming economy, compared to it's glorious (imperial) past.

It's hard for us here to really come to terms with how over-abundantly endowed we are in the US. Only when living in Japan, a supposedly rich nation, and watching an learning from the society around me, did I become aware of how amazingly spoiled I was when growing up, just because I was born and raised in the US.

253 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:00:40pm

re: #251 sattv4u2

I know a lot of people find that shocking.

I've had a portable defibrillator at the ready while reading you since OWS started!!
//

Fancy. Jumper cables and 110ac for me. I'm on a budget.

254 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:01:06pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

My last big scoop was Breitbart's violent fantasies in front of a Tea Party crowd. Probably no more than 20 people in his audience

Specious comparison, given Breitbart's disgustingly outsized influence with the GOP and the mainstream media.

255 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:01:07pm

re: #248 makeitstop

So, no comment on the trumped up charges, just a video having nothing to do with the subject at hand? Cool.

I wasn't there and can't comment on who was at fault. I will say since there are lots of cops in my family and I know how they work I will lean toward what the cop says versus a protester. I have much respect for the police. Some people don't.

You have any comment on the guy pushing the cop off his motorcycle?

256 albusteve  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:01:16pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

It's a strawman erected by people who want to discredit my criticism of OWS. Don't believe everything you read about me.

My last big scoop was Breitbart's violent fantasies in front of a Tea Party crowd. Probably no more than 20 people in his audience and that went viral all over the internet. When I found that video it had 3 views, probably up to a couple 100 thousand views by now. I see no reason to treat the Tea Party and different than OWS. I know a lot of people find that shocking.

you did the unthinkable, dissing somebody's sacred ideal....now you will sniped relentlessly and forever....good for you bro

257 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:02:06pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

It's a strawman erected by people who want to discredit my criticism of OWS. Don't believe everything you read about me.

No, I mean, in the past, I thought I'd seen you post things from Hitchens and otherwise indicate that you liked the cut of his jib. It wasn't anything to do with anyone else.

My last big scoop was Breitbart's violent fantasies in front of a Tea Party crowd. Probably no more than 20 people in his audience and that went viral all over the internet.

Doesn't that have to do with who Breitbart is and the influence he wields, rather than the size of the crowd?

I see no reason to treat the Tea Party and different than OWS. I know a lot of people find that shocking.

In so far as they are different, it makes sense to treat them differently. I do see the differences between them as worth pointing out, whereas I feel you generally alide them, thus taking away a shitload from your criticism.

The problem with the Tea Party were not the extremists on the fringes, but their basic message and complaint in the first place. The complaints fro the Tea Party were largely either fictitious-- that Obama is a socialist who has raised taxes-- or wrong-headed-- that we have far too much government spending and it all needs to be reigned in.

The complaints of OWS have some parts that are confused or fictitious, but their main, basic point-- that the financial industry is responsible for the meltdown, that the gap between the ultrawealthy and the rest of society is a dangerous thing-- is a very good one.

That you are treating two groups that are so wildly disparate as though they are mirrors of each other is a large part of the problem.

The only similarity I can see between them is that they're groups and they protest. That's about it.

258 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:03:46pm

Ann Coulter calls allegations against Cain ‘high-tech lynching’

"This is a high-tech lynching," she said on Fox News Channel Sunday night, echoing the Supreme Court justice's words during his own hearing in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1991.

Coulter called the allegations a plant from liberals, who are "terrified" of the pizza magnate.

"He is a strong, conservative black man … They are terrified of strong, conservative black men," she said.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:03:55pm

re: #251 sattv4u2

I know a lot of people find that shocking.

I've had a portable defibrillator at the ready while reading you since OWS started!!
//

Speaking of shocks, I was watching a TV show last night where they reacreated the famous Milgram experiment with the electric shocks.

What I thought interesting was that none of the test subjects, at least the ones they showed, recognized the set-up when it was described to them. Didn't everyone have to read about this for at least one high school or college class?

260 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:04:04pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

My last big scoop was Breitbart's violent fantasies in front of a Tea Party crowd. Probably no more than 20 people in his audience and that went viral all over the internet. When I found that video it had 3 views, probably up to a couple 100 thousand views by now. I see no reason to treat the Tea Party and different than OWS. I know a lot of people find that shocking.

e_e

Did you run around commie-baiting the tea party? Doubtful.

It really didn't take much to have been right about the tea party. What does that prove about your looking for commies in OWS?

261 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:04:17pm

re: #253 Killgore Trout

Fancy. Jumper cables and 110ac for me. I'm on a budget.

I'm cheating

It's not mine
Workplace requires one on site

At home, it's 3 "D' batteries and an old piece of tinfoil

262 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:04:25pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

Speaking of shocks, I was watching a TV show last night where they reacreated the famous Milgram experiment with the electric shocks.

What I thought interesting was that none of the test subjects, at least the ones they showed, recognized the set-up when it was described to them. Didn't everyone have to read about this for at least one high school or college class?

Who was this? That experiment is massively unethical.

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:04:49pm

re: #258 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ann Coulter calls allegations against Cain ‘high-tech lynching’

OK, that took less than twenty-four hours. Moving along.

264 iossarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:05:00pm

My last big scoop was at Ben & Jerry's.

265 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:05:25pm

Gotta run. Work is calling...

Cheers! Have a great Halloween!

266 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:05:31pm

re: #258 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ann Coulter calls allegations against Cain ‘high-tech lynching’

Wow - nothing original from her, whatsoever.

All recycled rwnj claptrap.

267 makeitstop  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:06:15pm

re: #255 NJDhockeyfan

I wan't there and can't comment on who was at fault. I will say since there are lots of cops in my family and I know how they work I will lean toward what the cop says versus a protester. I have much respect for the police. Some people don't.

Did you read the article? Nashville Scoop reported:

If that charge was made up later to discredit Meador — or even more appallingly, to divert attention from what a Metro Night Court judge last night told officers was a blatantly unconstitutional overstepping of government and police authority — nobody who cares about their First Amendment freedoms should sleep in Tennessee tonight.

My respect for police (excluding those who try to tack public intoxication charges onto an arrest and get caught doing so) has absolutely zero to do with it. But continue beating that horse if it makes you feel better.

You have any comment on the guy pushing the cop off his motorcycle?

Nope. That horse has also been beaten to death already.

268 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:06:39pm

re: #18 Obdicut

Just making figures up and using whatever is convenient is what the holocaust deniers do.

It's what a lot of people do for a lot of political reasons. I remind of the 2.8 to 4 million deaths that were the official numbers for victims of Auschwitz until 1990, arrived at by Polish and Soviet investigation committees (it was actually 1.1 to 1.5 million). But of course it's true that fudging numbers is much more pervasive among deniers.

People interested in real history will gravitate towards the truth. Pam is not one of them.

269 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:09:12pm

re: #255 NJDhockeyfan

I wan't there and can't comment on who was at fault. I will say since there are lots of cops in my family and I know how they work I will lean toward what the cop says versus a protester. I have much respect for the police. Some people don't.

Some police also do not have any respect for some people.

They deserve no respect from said people.

270 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:10:04pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

Speaking of shocks, I was watching a TV show last night where they reacreated the famous Milgram experiment with the electric shocks.

What I thought interesting was that none of the test subjects, at least the ones they showed, recognized the set-up when it was described to them. Didn't everyone have to read about this for at least one high school or college class?

His research book on it came out after I was out of H/S and college

(yeah,,, I'm an old goat , whats it to ya!?!?)

271 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:10:12pm

re: #258 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ann Coulter calls allegations against Cain ‘high-tech lynching’

The irony's so thick, one could spread it on a croissant.

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:10:17pm

Speaking for no one else, I believe that:

1. "I did it to X, so it's fair to do the same thing to Y" is not a logically sound principle. Maybe it was wrong to do it to X in the first place, then? Some re-examination is in order?

2. Extremists should be highlighted and exposed...

3. ... in a responsible manner, without over-the-top or too-biased interpretations.

4. So I find both postings with OWS critiques largely fair and sniping at them largely fair. Both are far from "ideal", but without each we would not have a fuller picture.

273 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:10:46pm

re: #258 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ann Coulter calls allegations against Cain ‘high-tech lynching’

*Yawn*

274 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:13:05pm

re: #46 Sergey Romanov

Very true. And pseudoscholars such as Rudy Rummel, who are sometimes touted as authoritative, are muddying the waters even further.

Rummel is an especially vexing case since he came up with the concept of democide to begin with.

276 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:14:12pm

Seriously, hearing a wingnut scream "RACIST!" when I criticize Cain would have more impact if they did it after they took off the white sheets and put away the photo-shopped pictures of Obama as a witch doctor.

277 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:14:36pm

re: #274 000G

Rummel is an especially vexing case since he came up with the concept of democide to begin with.

Sure. Blind hen and all that.

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:14:41pm

re: #262 Obdicut

Who was this? That experiment is massively unethical.

I'll ask my husband if he got the title.

279 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:14:47pm

Noted liberal Karl Rove does not think Cain answered the Politico story properly:

[Link: www.politico.com...]


Heh.

280 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:15:13pm

You knew this was coming: NBC confirms one Cain accuser received cash settlement.

281 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:15:54pm

Right Lashes Out At Media, Clinton After Cain Revelations

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:16:23pm

OK, Gus, I tried to get us back on track.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:16:41pm

NANOWRIMO starts tonight!!

284 Amory Blaine  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:17:30pm

Ann Coulter calls attacks on Obama "super serial"./

285 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:18:05pm

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist

Eli Roth's How Evil Are You.

286 Kragar  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:18:59pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

NANOWRIMO starts tonight!!

North Atlantic Neo Occidental Women's Rhetorical Interpretive Mime Operas?

287 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:19:14pm

re: #282 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, Gus, I tried to get us back on track.

We have a track?

288 Amory Blaine  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:21:38pm

re: #271 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The irony's so thick, one could spread it on a croissant.

IDK if I'd eat irony on a croissant.

289 makeitstop  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:22:59pm

re: #279 Decatur Deb

Noted liberal Karl Rove does not think Cain answered the Politico story properly:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

Heh.

He's playing this pretty coyly. Those who laughed off Rove's possible involvement in this might want to reconsider the possibility.

290 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:23:18pm

re: #288 Amory Blaine

IDK if I'd eat irony on a croissant.

It's highly recommended for anaemia.

291 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:23:47pm

re: #285 lawhawk

Eli Roth's How Evil Are You.

Yes! That guy!!

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:24:02pm

re: #286 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

North Atlantic Neo Occidental Women's Rhetorical Interpretive Mime Operas?

What's a Neo-Occidental?

293 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:24:12pm

re: #287 sattv4u2

We have a track?

Apparently not.

294 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:24:16pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

NANOWRIMO starts tonight!!

Does it count if my novel is just 50,000 words of lorem ipsum text?
/

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:24:42pm

re: #294 Simply Sarah

Does it count if my novel is just 50,000 words of lorem ipsum text?
/

Only you can decide, really.

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:25:36pm

I'm going with the idea that my mother loved best, which I am totally unprepared for in terms of research--a mystery novel featuring an all-female law agency in late nineteenth century San Francisco.

297 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:26:31pm

re: #289 makeitstop

He's playing this pretty coyly. Those who laughed off Rove's possible involvement in this might want to reconsider the possibility.

I was just about to say something very similar.

It will be interesting to see the reaction of the Cain dupes who are currently monitoring my authenticity levels as a Black person, if/when the race/color/ethnicity of the women is ever revealed.

If black, they wanted it. If nonblack but also not white, pfft. If white...eeee, I will have to start defending Herman Cain from them.

298 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:26:31pm

re: #296 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going with the idea that my mother loved best, which I am totally unprepared for in terms of research--a mystery novel featuring an all-female law agency in late nineteenth century San Francisco.

Will there be zombies or shiny vampires? Or Jane Austen?

299 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:26:42pm

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Only you can decide, really.

Aww, no fun in that, then.

300 makeitstop  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:28:11pm

re: #297 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I was just about to say something very similar.

It will be interesting to see the reaction of the Cain dupes who are currently monitoring my authenticity levels as a Black person, if/when the race/color/ethnicity of the women is ever revealed.

If black, they wanted it. If nonblack but also not white, pfft. If white...eee, I will have to start defending Herman Cain from them.

I don't envy you that position. :)

301 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:28:12pm

re: #291 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, the guy who made Hostel.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and guess that he lacked scientific rigor.

302 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:28:58pm

re: #301 Obdicut

Good guy. /

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:31:10pm

re: #298 Decatur Deb

Will there be zombies or shiny vampires? Or Jane Austen?

No zombies, no vampires of an reflectivity, and Jane will only appear through her books if at all.

However, Donaldina Cameron may get a walk-on role, depending on when exactly I set the book.

304 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:31:22pm

re: #293 SanFranciscoZionist

Apparently not.

I have a fancy shmancy 8 track in my car ,, does THAT count?!?!

305 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:33:01pm

re: #304 sattv4u2

I have a fancy shmancy 8 track in my car ,, does THAT count?!?!

But do you have a track record?/

306 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:33:26pm

re: #303 SanFranciscoZionist

This is a pretty cool little site, if you haven't found it already.

[Link: foundsf.org...]

307 engineer cat  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:33:52pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

It's a strawman erected by people who want to discredit my criticism of OWS. Don't believe everything you read about me.

My last big scoop was Breitbart's violent fantasies in front of a Tea Party crowd. Probably no more than 20 people in his audience and that went viral all over the internet. When I found that video it had 3 views, probably up to a couple 100 thousand views by now. I see no reason to treat the Tea Party and different than OWS. I know a lot of people find that shocking.

should i put you down as a radical moderate or an extremist moderate?

308 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:34:43pm

re: #305 Sergey Romanov

But do you have a track record?/

That would be silly

A record doesn't fit into the 8 track

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:36:42pm

re: #301 Obdicut

Ah, the guy who made Hostel.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and guess that he lacked scientific rigor.

He got some people to do the experiment for him, he was just lurking and watching, and looking SHOCKED when they kept going.

I have no clue who the people performing the experiment were. The main 'scientist' looked a bit like Colonel Sanders in a lab coat.

Their numbers came out to essentially match Milgram's.

I assume that from a scientific perspective it was mostly BS.

One thing I did find interesting was that when they walk into the lab and say "The first thing you need to know is, this machine does not administer electric shocks," my first thought would have been "YOU SET ME UP!!" I would have been angry and humiliated. Everyone reacted instead with apparent relief that they had not been torturing the guy in the other room.

Still wonder if no one actually recognized what it was. They kept the same scenario.

311 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:37:11pm

We need some music.

The Sandals - "Wingnut's Theme"

Youtube Video
312 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:37:30pm

re: #306 Obdicut

This is a pretty cool little site, if you haven't found it already.

[Link: foundsf.org...]

Oooh. Cool.

313 Simply Sarah  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:38:31pm

re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist

He got some people to do the experiment for him, he was just lurking and watching, and looking SHOCKED when they kept going.

I have no clue who the people performing the experiment were. The main 'scientist' looked a bit like Colonel Sanders in a lab coat.

Their numbers came out to essentially match Milgram's.

I assume that from a scientific perspective it was mostly BS.

One thing I did find interesting was that when they walk into the lab and say "The first thing you need to know is, this machine does not administer electric shocks," my first thought would have been "YOU SET ME UP!!" I would have been angry and humiliated. Everyone reacted instead with apparent relief that they had not been torturing the guy in the other room.

Still wonder if no one actually recognized what it was. They kept the same scenario.

People might have and they could have just ignored/not included those people.

314 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:39:49pm

re: #300 makeitstop

I don't envy you that position. :)

Eh, it's fine with me. I've said for a while now, that teeming crowd of confederate pitchforks he's striving to kiss up to will turn on him on a dime, and when/if they ever do, I won't have a problem defending him.

That said, I really do hope it's true and not a rove or rove-style smear. The McCain black baby was heinous enough, but I would not put it past a fellow GOPer to play that old card again, because it works with that constituency.

315 recusancy  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:40:23pm

re: #145 Obdicut

I don't recall OWS telling me anything, actually. But, um, nice work bringing OWS into the discussion out of nowhere, I guess?

KT has a bit of the Occupy Derangement Syndrome.

316 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:46:54pm

re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist

There are so many things wrong with the experiment that I don't really know where to begin. I mean, if you think that the dudes in the white coats really do want you to torture, then you're suddenly faced with being in the same room as torturers. Weird torturers, too. Milgram, for whatever reason, discounted that-- it's not just a test about authority, since if someone's encouraging you to torture you can probably assume they have few qualms about torturing you, too.

However, a lot of follow-up questioning in Milgram-style experiments has show the majority-- something like 70%-- of the people felt that the experiment wasn't real, that something else was being tested, that the subject wasn't actually being hurt. There's some support for that in that in deliberately unreal scenarios-- as in, when people in a Milgram-style experiment know that they are shocking an unreal being, a computer simulation-- they behave basically identically to Milgram's subjects.

My wife said a good portion of her medschool class had never heard of the experiment when she brought it up awhile ago, so I'm unsurprised they could find ignorant people-- assuming they really did and they weren't actors or otherwise faking it.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:47:21pm

re: #313 Simply Sarah

People might have and they could have just ignored/not included those people.

True. I would have loved to see those outtakes though.

"One theory is that pain makes people learn better. When the learner misses a question, you will administer an electric shock. If more questions are missed, the shocks will get stronger. Any questions?"

"No, not really. I mean, I was in the group that presented to our Psych 101 class about how this worked when Milgram did it, so I pretty much have it down cold."

318 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:47:37pm

re: #307 engineer dog

should i put you down as a radical moderate or an extremist moderate?

I wanted to be a post modern cubist but my application was rejected over some nonsense about right angles.

319 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:48:31pm

re: #318 Killgore Trout

I wanted to be a post modern cubist but my application was rejected over some nonsense about right angles.

Don't be so obtuse

320 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:48:57pm

re: #319 sattv4u2

Don't be so obtuse

Very acute.

321 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:49:37pm

Now my hypotenuse itches.

322 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:49:39pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout

Very acute.

(((bats eyelashes)))

oh ,, wait ,,,, A-cute ,,, not CUTE!!

:(

323 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:49:54pm

re: #296 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going with the idea that my mother loved best, which I am totally unprepared for in terms of research--a mystery novel featuring an all-female law agency in late nineteenth century San Francisco.

Have you seen The Call archives from that time?

[Link: cdnc.ucr.edu...]

324 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:49:59pm

re: #315 recusancy

KT has a bit of the Occupy Derangement Syndrome.

He's got some very good, trenchant, and well-supported criticism of the Occupy stuff.

Which he then sabotages by giggling about people getting maced.

It still feels like performance art to me: criticizing people for having an extremist message while using an extremist message to do so.

325 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:50:30pm

re: #316 Obdicut

There are so many things wrong with the experiment that I don't really know where to begin. I mean, if you think that the dudes in the white coats really do want you to torture, then you're suddenly faced with being in the same room as torturers. Weird torturers, too. Milgram, for whatever reason, discounted that-- it's not just a test about authority, since if someone's encouraging you to torture you can probably assume they have few qualms about torturing you, too.

One of the guys who balked in their recreation focused on the legal aspect. The guy running the experiment kept telling him to continue, and the guy explained patiently that he'd READ the release form, and it said they could quit any time, and the guy in the other room was quitting, so he was quitting. He was stressed, but the fact that he KNEW that clause was there gave him the drive to insist he was stopping.

My favorite was the woman who when asked "If someone had been harmed, whose responsibility would it have been?" swiveled and pointed straight at the guy in the lab coat.

326 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:50:33pm

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Now my hypotenuse itches.

"How a hypotenuse got in my pajamas I'll never know!"

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:51:08pm

re: #323 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Have you seen The Call archives from that time?

[Link: cdnc.ucr.edu...]

You guys rock.

328 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:52:04pm

re: #324 Obdicut

That.

329 Gus  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:53:11pm

The drum circle is complete.

330 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:53:35pm

GGGGGAAAAAHHHHH

This is why I reprimand my son and wife all the time about procrastinating!!!

Trying to send my sons application to Auburn U ,,,, their site is totally tied up

Apps need to be in by November 1st,,, son JUST finished it half an hour ago

331 engineer cat  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:53:40pm

re: #318 Killgore Trout

I wanted to be a post modern cubist but my application was rejected over some nonsense about right angles.

i believe it was barry goldwater who said "orthogonality in defense of cubism is not equal to pi"

332 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:54:58pm

re: #331 engineer dog

i believe it was barry goldwater who said "orthogonality in defense of cubism is not equal to pi"

I thought that was Bozo The Mathematician!

333 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:55:27pm

re: #330 sattv4u2

GGGAAAHHH

This is why I reprimand my son and wife all the time about procrastinating!!!

Trying to send my sons application to Auburn U ,,, their site is totally tied up

Apps need to be in by November 1st,,, son JUST finished it half an hour ago

Makes sense.

334 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:55:52pm

re: #333 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Makes sense.

yup

335 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:57:07pm

I'll kill him if he does the same thing on his Georgia Tech one!

336 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:58:28pm

re: #330 sattv4u2

GGGAAAHHH

This is why I reprimand my son and wife all the time about procrastinating!!!

Trying to send my sons application to Auburn U ,,, their site is totally tied up

Apps need to be in by November 1st,,, son JUST finished it half an hour ago

I'm working as a college application consultant this fall!

November 1 is pretty early. Is he going for early admission, or is that just their deadline?

337 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:01:03pm

re: #336 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm working as a college application consultant this fall!

November 1 is pretty early. Is he going for early admission, or is that just their deadline?

Their deadline!

Ga Techs is also Nov 1 but just for their Honors Programs and ((can't remember which) scholarship, which he doesn't qualify for (not due to grades, but rather household income))

So for Ga Tech he has till Dec 15th (iirc)

338 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:02:14pm

To whomever recommended "The Walking Dead" recently?

Thank you!

339 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:02:52pm

'South Park’ on Occupy Wall Street: Blame Obama (Video preview)

340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:02:59pm

re: #337 sattv4u2

Virginia Tech will gladly take your money.

(nohecan'tlivewithme)

341 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:04:34pm

re: #340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Virginia Tech will gladly take your money.

(nohecan'tlivewithme)

We're visiting in January

342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:05:48pm

re: #307 engineer dog

should i put you down as a radical moderate or an extremist moderate?

Anti-idiotarian.

343 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:06:22pm

re: #339 Killgore Trout

'South Park’ on Occupy Wall Street: Blame Obama (Video preview)

oh snap

:D

344 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:06:50pm

re: #342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anti-idiotarian.

Radical Pedestrian

345 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:07:46pm

re: #340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Virginia Tech will gladly take your money.

(nohecan'tlivewithme)

(butuncleFatwillpayhistuition, no?)

346 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:10:21pm

re: #341 sattv4u2

January? Blacksburg, VA? 2080 feet above sea level. 38th parallel.

Let me play weatherman for you. 23 (f) degrees, winds at 22 mph, sleet.

Just remember I said that.

We like to get them there in the Spring for the trap to work.

347 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:11:15pm

re: #346 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

January? Blacksburg, VA? 2080 feet above sea level. 38th parallel.

Let me play weatherman for you. 23 (f) degrees, winds at 22 mph, sleet.

Just remember I said that.

We like to get them there in the Spring for the trap to work.

So ,,, just like when we were in Boston in May or September!!!

348 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:42:00pm

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Now my hypotenuse itches.

Better than pulling noodles, I would think.

349 palomino  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 4:03:08pm

re: #210 Killgore Trout

I googled looking for video of his speech at OWS. No OWS video but plenty of other stuff. The guy's a radical dickweed.

Well then, if a bad guy made a speech at an OWS rally, then all this criticism of banks and lobbyists must stop!

Because there's clearly nothing whatsoever to the idea that banks got away with malfeasance and/or criminal activity. And anyone who thinks the relationship between govt and business is too cozy must be a commie.

350 Dire Straits  Mon, Oct 31, 2011 7:47:46pm

Not a fan of Pamela Geller or Debbie Schlussel.


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