1 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:23:41pm

Video: Chris Matthews - ‘Fast and Furious’ Didn

Slight problem with the title Charles?

2 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:24:28pm

re: #1 Bubblehead II

That apostrophe sure is close to the Return key, isn't it?

3 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:37:49pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Yep.

I just wish Chris would shut up and let his Guests finish what they are saying.

4 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:39:49pm

Personally I think the most damning thing about this entire "scandal" is that Issa's star witness against the DoJ, the guy whose word he's relying upon to build a case, is the guy responsible for the only example of "gun walking" during F&F, who now tries to paint himself and his two loser buddies as the "voices of reason."

5 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:43:42pm

re: #4 Targetpractice

But if you read the Fortune piece. That example of "Gun Walking" didn't happen under the auspices of F&F. Totally different op started while the Group VII supervisor was on vacation and done so without his knowledge or approval.

6 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:45:59pm

re: #5 Bubblehead II

But if you read the Fortune piece. That example of "Gun Walking" didn't happen under the auspices of F&F. Totally different op started while the Group VII supervisor was on vacation and done so without his knowledge or approval.

That's what I'm getting at, the only example under the aegis of F&F was orchestrated by the "whistleblower," of his own cognition, and approved by superiors without the knowledge of the guy who was actually in charge of the team. Then he decides to be the ultimate dickhead and duck out of actually tracking the guns so that he could go on vacation.

It's dipshits like him that are the reason why whistleblowers get a bad name to begin with.

7 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:58:36pm

re: #6 Targetpractice

That's what I'm getting at, the only example under the aegis of F&F was orchestrated by the "whistleblower,"

It didn't happen under F&F. It was a separate and distinct op.

8 researchok  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 4:59:39pm

At this point, I will wait for the IG Report.

There is a whole lot of 'He said, she said' but when the dust settles, it does seem unlikely the AG's office would deliberately foist guns on the Mexican Cartels. I'm inclined to believe the AG's office heeded Mukasey's advice to scrap the idea of arming the cartels.

That said, there is one bothersome detail- why is the administration asserting Executive Privilege over events that according to them, never happened?

The only reason I can see for that is to let the IG do his job with as little political interference as possible. It would have been nice if the administration had said that.

9 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:01:54pm

re: #8 researchok

At this point, I will wait for the IG Report.

There is a whole lot opf 'He said, she said' but when the dust settles, it does seem unlikely the AG's office would deliberately foist guns on the Mexican Cartels. I'm inclined to believe the AG's office heeded Mukasey's advice to scrap the idea of arming the cartels.

That said, there is one bothersome detail- why is teh administration asserting Executive Privilege over events that according to them, never happened?

The only reason I can see for that is to let the IG do his job with as little political interference as possible. It would have been nice if the administration had said that.

Perhaps it's because the committee under Issa's chairmanship leaks like a sieve and has repeatedly "leaked" info to the press, that releasing those documents that Issa's demanding to his committee would present the risk of on-going investigations being obstructed or even ruined due to further "leaks."

10 gwangung  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:03:13pm

re: #8 researchok

That said, there is one bothersome detail- why is the administration asserting Executive Privilege over events that according to them, never happened?

The only reason I can see for that is to let the IG do his job with as little political interference as possible. It would have been nice if the administration had said that.

Hell, for all we know, he's said that and the media's "neglected" to mention that.

11 gwangung  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:03:50pm

re: #9 Targetpractice

I DO recall an offer to go over the documents in a closed session.

12 Batman  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:05:31pm

Most importantly, are all three of them wearing the same tie? Awkward.

13 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:07:29pm

re: #8 researchok

Then in that vein, I will ask, Why the hell is Issa demanding documents from the USAG of on going criminal investigations that can and probably will be leaked and that he damn well knows can't be released by law for that reason.

14 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:07:33pm

re: #11 gwangung

I DO recall an offer to go over the documents in a closed session.

There was an offer before the contempt vote last week, but Issa declared that he'd only accept the documents being turned over publicly. And Boehner pretty much reiterated that last night, even after several House Republicans were shown a couple dozen of the documents being demanded.

They're not interested in putting this issue to rest, they're interested in a scalp. Holder's is the one they've had their eye on for a long while now.

15 researchok  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:10:09pm

re: #9 Targetpractice

re: #10 gwangung

Like I said, at this point I'll believe the IG Report.

Everyone else has ulterior motives.

16 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:10:35pm

re: #13 Bubblehead II

Then in that vein, I will ask, Why the hell is Issa demanding documents from the USAG of on going criminal investigations that can and probably will be leaked and that he damn well knows can't be released by law for that reason.

Issa is doing this because he thinks he can't lose, and he's probably right. The current House is controlled by a bunch of racist Republican trash and there's zero chance of him being censured for his behavior.

17 gwangung  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:12:15pm

re: #16 goddamnedfrank

Issa is doing this because he thinks he can't lose, and he's probably right. The current House is controlled by a bunch of racist Republican trash and there's zero chance of him being censured for his behavior.

Then, isn't it likely to work as well as the impeachment hearings for Clinton?

18 researchok  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:13:38pm

re: #14 Targetpractice

I agree.

What bothers me is the Executive Privilege assertion.

Surely public disclosure would back the Administration's claims.

The other thing that comes to mind is simply bad management at the ATF- something Holder doesn't want to deal with (or issue a mea culpa) until after the election

Guns, cash, drugs, undercover operations- what could go wrong?

19 Digital Display  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:15:46pm

Full Disclosure: I can't stand Hardball and Chris. It doesn't matter if I'm a new Dem..I have never liked him. Of course when I was a Repub I hated Rush..Always have always will..I believe in equal opportunity disdain in politics..:)
Now to the question at hand.. Yes I watched the video from Hardball and preferred a knife to my left eye..But I manned up and watched.. Painful.
It doesn't matter what party controls Congress
Congress and America love a BIG Scandal. It doesn't matter if it's Watergate, Selling weapons to Iran, Black listing Hollywood, Blow jobs in the White House..Wide stances in the bathroom..
America loves a big juicy scandal..
/

20 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:16:52pm

I haven't been able to digest all that has happened in the last couple of weeks. The whole think looks bad politically for the Obama Administration. I do wish the final report would be published soon. The gun nuts are twisting themselves into a frenzy of knots over this.

21 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:17:55pm

re: #19 Digital Display

Full Disclosure: I can't stand Hardball and Chris. It doesn't matter if I'm a new Dem..I have never liked him. Of course when I was a Repub I hated Rush..Always have always will..I believe in equal opportunity disdain in politics..:)
Now to the question at hand.. Yes I watched the video from Hardball and preferred a knife to my left eye..But I manned up and watched.. Painful.
It doesn't matter what party controls Congress
Congress and America love a BIG Scandal. It doesn't matter if it's Watergate, Selling weapons to Iran, Black listing Hollywood, Blow jobs in the White House..Wide stances in the bathroom..
America loves a big juicy scandal..
/

Yeah, I'm not big on Chris Matthew either. I used to be able to stand him, but I'm not going to watch now. I have little confidence it isn't a biased report.

22 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:18:48pm

re: #8 researchok

That said, there is one bothersome detail- why is the administration asserting Executive Privilege over events that according to them, never happened?

The only reason I can see for that is to let the IG do his job with as little political interference as possible. It would have been nice if the administration had said that.

I would guess it's probably for the same reasons Bush invoked executive privilege.
It's partially principal, preserving the separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches but also it takes the steam out of partisan fishing expeditions.

23 gwangung  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:21:05pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Well, the Administration offered a compromise and gave some reasonable justifications, but it was turned down, it seemed...

24 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:21:41pm

re: #23 gwangung

Well, the Administration offered a compromise and gave some reasonable justifications, but it was turned down, it seemed...

Yeah, that shows me that Issa is in it for Political reasons, not to honor Brian Terry.

25 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:22:21pm

re: #19 Digital Display

Full Disclosure: I can't stand Hardball and Chris. It doesn't matter if I'm a new Dem..I have never liked him. Of course when I was a Repub I hated Rush..Always have always will..I believe in equal opportunity disdain in politics..:)

I find him unwatchable too. I find the whole network counterproductive. In situations like this I just hope and pray that they don't shoot themselves in the foot by going overboard and make a distracting spectacle of themselves. This should be an easy win if the issue stays on topic. Let's hope for the best.

26 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:24:10pm

re: #23 gwangung

Well, the Administration offered a compromise and gave some reasonable justifications, but it was turned down, it seemed...

From what I can understand is that Issa knew he wasn't going to find what he wanted. Politically it's in his interest to create the impression there's a cover up from the executive.

27 gwangung  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:25:25pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

From what I can understand is that Issa knew he wasn't going to find what he wanted. Politically it's in his interest to create the impression there's a cover up from the executive.

Kinda damning, isn't it?

Or, least it would be in a rational society....

28 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:26:15pm

Meet the Pyro

Youtube Video

Makes me nostalgic for TF2. Maybe I'll start playing again.

29 Kragar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:28:38pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Meet the Pyro

[Embedded content]

Makes me nostalgic for TF2. Maybe I'll start playing again.

I was going to wait for the thread to die down some before posting that.

30 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:29:25pm

Been listening to the lastest in Robert Caro's LBJ series, The Passage of Power.

Woweeeee! The game is played as the game is played.

While the whole series is rather long (big thick books). I do think at least Master of the Senate and perhaps this new one should be required reading for all adults.

In politics there is no clear cut good and evil, right and wrong. It's a devils game it seems we must play in order to live together in some 'semblence of civil society.

31 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:30:23pm

re: #18 researchok

I agree.

What bothers me is the Executive Privilege assertion.

Surely public disclosure would back the Administration's claims.

The other thing that comes to mind is simply bad management at the ATF- something Holder doesn't want to deal with (or issue a mea culpa) until after the election

Guns, cash, drugs, undercover operations- what could go wrong?

Yes, and releasing Obama's birth certificate will surely end the accusations that he was really born in Kenya.

Seriously, Issa's interested in one thing: Getting somebody's scalp. He's admitted twice in the last 4 days that he doesn't have any evidence of wrong-doing or conspiracy on behalf of the White House or Holder. At this point, this whole charade continues to move forward because he can't admit publicly that he spent months wasting taxpayer dollars chasing down a wingnut conspiracy theory. Like Captain Queeg, he's absolutely positive that somebody stole the strawberries and everybody who knows the culprit is covering for him.

32 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:30:59pm

So, to relate LBJ to the current situation . . .

It seems to be politics as usual. It only seems new and outrageous to those not cognizant of history or those easily wound-up by Fox News and the NRA.

Same goes for any issue. (well different media and interest groups apply to each issue)

33 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:31:08pm

re: #29 Kragar

I was going to wait for the thread to die down some before posting that.

Heh. I stopped playing shortly after the hats but before it became freeplay. I must have played that game for 2-3 hours every day for a couple years. As part of the Orange Box by far the best value for my gaming dollar I've ever had.

34 jaunte  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:31:38pm

Rep. Mike Quigley (D-Ill.) on the F&Fcircus: “It’s a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham.”

35 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:31:48pm

re: #31 Targetpractice

Yes, and releasing Obama's birth certificate will surely end the accusations that he was really born in Kenya.

Seriously, Issa's interested in one thing: Getting somebody's scalp. He's admitted twice in the last 4 days that he doesn't have any evidence of wrong-doing or conspiracy on behalf of the White House or Holder. At this point, this whole charade continues to move forward because he can't admit publicly that he spent months wasting taxpayer dollars chasing down a wingnut conspiracy theory. Like Captain Queeg, he's absolutely positive that somebody stole the strawberries and everybody who knows the culprit is covering for him.

Well, in the end, I think it is a case of: A law enforcement officer died --someone's head must roll."

36 Kragar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:32:11pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Heh. I stopped playing shortly after the hats but before it became freeplay. I must have played that game for 2-3 hours every day for a couple years. As part of the Orange Box by far the best value for my gaming dollar I've ever had.

I played free play for a while, not usually into pvp games like that, but it was fun for a bit.

37 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:33:46pm

Dust storm in AZ.
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

38 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:35:27pm

re: #36 Kragar

I played free play for a while, not usually into pvp games like that, but it was fun for a bit.

I might give it a try again but I played on a server with regular players, everybody knew everybody. It was always frustrating when people showed up and did stupid stuff, wouldn't push the cart, everybody picked sniper, etc. I don't know if I could tolerate freeplay.

39 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:36:41pm

re: #35 ggt

Well, in the end, I think it is a case of: A law enforcement officer died --someone's head must roll."

It's a case of a conspiracy theory that, like most such theories, has not stood up to even casual scrutiny. I've yet to find somebody who could, with a straight face, tell me that Terry would still be alive if not for F&F.

40 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:37:05pm

I see Robert Caro's other big book about Robert Moses is now at Audible. and In my queue.

41 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:37:23pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

I might give it a try again but I played on a server with regular players, everybody knew everybody. It was always frustrating when people showed up and did stupid stuff, wouldn't push the cart, everybody picked sniper, etc. I don't know if I could tolerate freeplay.

In ur respawn point camping noobz!

42 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:37:56pm

Have a friend that was evacuated from her hotel in Colorado Springs. Hope Colorado area Lizard and frogs are ok.

43 Kragar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:37:57pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

I might give it a try again but I played on a server with regular players, everybody knew everybody. It was always frustrating when people showed up and did stupid stuff, wouldn't push the cart, everybody picked sniper, etc. I don't know if I could tolerate freeplay.

I usually played pyro or heavy.

44 Kragar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:39:18pm

re: #37 Varek Raith

Dust storm in AZ.
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

You know, some people would say that is the wrath of God making them pay for their sins.

Just making an observation.

45 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:39:38pm

audible.com has a new page in which you can review your listens and other stuff. My stats show I have 431 books in my library --damn, I read/listen alot.

46 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:40:00pm

re: #41 Varek Raith

tf2 Scout door Glitch

Youtube Video
47 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:41:54pm

re: #43 Kragar

I usually played pyro or heavy.

I would do mostly heavy or medic. On a good team it's a winning combo. I started to get pretty good at spy but it had to be on a map that I knew really well and learned some tricks for.

48 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:43:51pm

I like Tribes.

49 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:46:11pm

Some interesting cloud formations above the city yesterday.

Youtube Video
50 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:46:28pm

15% everything you can fit in the bag at Staples until July 4. Need printer cartridges?

51 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:47:31pm

The storm front.

Image: AwXEAghCIAEwI5R.jpg

52 simoom  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:47:37pm

re: #8 researchok

That said, there is one bothersome detail- why is the administration asserting Executive Privilege over events that according to them, never happened?

The Executive Privilege invocation only covers the subset of documents generated after February 4th, 2011. The focus of this investigation was originally supposed to be the Phoenix ATF office’s operation that took place in 2009, but of course Rep. Issa happily used the DOJ’s correction letter as an excuse to start fishing into the DOJ (and now he’s using the EP invocation to stretch into the WH):

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Mr. Issa was initially seeking a broad range of documents, including some that were sealed by court order. But the contempt citation is more narrowly focused on internal Justice Department deliberations last year amid the Congressional investigation.

The administration has already released a similar set of documents from before Feb. 4, 2011, showing how it drafted an early letter that falsely told Congress that A.T.F. always made every effort to interdict guns, which the department later retracted. Those documents showed that employees in Arizona had insisted to the officials who drafted the letter that no guns had walked in Fast and Furious.

The administration said it was making an exception for release of the pre-Feb. 4 documents to show that it had not deliberately misled Congress, but that it would not turn over records of internal deliberations after that. Republicans, however, insist they have a right to see those too.

On Tuesday evening, Mr. Holder offered to give the committee some of the disputed documents if Mr. Issa would agree to end the fight over contempt, but the lawmaker refused to consider doing so until he saw them.

On Wednesday morning, Deputy Attorney General James Cole said in a letter to Mr. Issa that the president was claiming privilege over the documents because their disclosure would chill the candor of future internal deliberations. However, he suggested that there might still be a way to negotiate the release of some of the contested documents.

Again, according to the CNN/Forbes investigation, a small scale gun walking did occur, but it wasn't under Fast and Furious, but was instead Issa's so-called whistleblowers freelancing without approval. The GOP then used reports of that freelancing to imply a letter from Justice contained a falsehood:

... Dodson then proceeded to walk guns intentionally, with Casa and Alt's help. On April 13, 2010, one month after Voth wrote his schism e-mail, Dodson opened a case into a suspected gun trafficker named Isaiah Fernandez. He had gotten Casa to approve the case when Voth was on leave. Dodson had directed a cooperating straw purchaser to give three guns to Fernandez and had taped their conversations without a prosecutor's approval.

...

On Feb. 4, 2011, the Justice Department sent a letter to Sen. Grassley saying that the allegations of gun walking in Fast and Furious were false and that ATF always tried to interdict weapons. A month later, Grassley countered with what appeared to be slam-dunk proof that ATF had indeed walked guns. "[P]lease explain how the denials in the Justice Department's Feb. 4, 2011 letter to me can be squared with the evidence," Grassley wrote, attaching damning case reports that he contended "proved that ATF allowed guns to 'walk.'" The case and agent names were redacted, but the reports were not from Fast and Furious. They came entirely from Dodson's Fernandez case.

53 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:48:33pm

An itty-bitty tornado.

Image: AwXEAghCIAEwI5R.jpg

54 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:50:51pm

re: #44 Kragar

Yep. Southern Idaho is feeling his wrath as well.

Fire At Tupper Grade Near Hagerman Forces Closure Of Road

UPDATED INFORMATION: Crews Are Controlling Fire In The Hidden Lakes Area

/// If he doesn't get us with these, he will with others. REPENT IDAHO! or burn.

55 Kragar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:52:10pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

I would do mostly heavy or medic. On a good team it's a winning combo. I started to get pretty good at spy but it had to be on a map that I knew really well and learned some tricks for.

I was usually the skirmisher/free safety. I'd take the alternate routes to lay down a crossfire or take out staging areas.

56 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 5:55:26pm

re: #31 Targetpractice

Yes, and releasing Obama's birth certificate will surely end the accusations that he was really born in Kenya.

Seriously, Issa's interested in one thing: Getting somebody's scalp. He's admitted twice in the last 4 days that he doesn't have any evidence of wrong-doing or conspiracy on behalf of the White House or Holder. At this point, this whole charade continues to move forward because he can't admit publicly that he spent months wasting taxpayer dollars chasing down a wingnut conspiracy theory. Like Captain Queeg, he's absolutely positive that somebody stole the strawberries and everybody who knows the culprit is covering for him.

He wants to make his name famous. I used to live in this prick's district & when his unpaid intern called to get my support I brought up the DISTRICT vs the national name Issa so wants. I think we hung up on each other.

57 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 6:09:56pm

When Matt Miller pointed out the AG's veracity inspector will come out with a report in a few months I got a sinking feeling about this. Which will be the definitive report? This issue is loaded already. Overloaded. Ohhh boy... I hope they push that out to post November.

BTW as a gun guy I do have some disagreements of substance with ATF. Call it "front office" or policy complaints. Not important now. I've been in the shooting game a long time. At big shooting ranges there are usually FFL dealers there. So there is interaction and visits from ATF agents, and also contact with agents at the shooting competitions. I have spent some time with ATF agents. As fellow competitors. D_L saw ATF in action when some fool stole a pistol from a gun club where she worked. She was favorably impressed.

I think sometimes they were there to take a look at this big gun club with a hundred or more guys competing at a time to see if we were straight or a militia or whatever. Most of the competitors are frighteningly fast and accurate with their pistols. From all that time spent-These are rock solid honest law officers I would trust with my life. They are highly motivated and thoroughly trained.

And that is why I bought into the whistle blowers story. My very real trust was violated. I'm unimportant. What is important is that we be able to trust out law officers, understanding that they too are human and can screw up big. But overall, these are the men and women that keep us safe from truly bad people. And overall they earn that trust and keep it close. The liars in this must be punished to keep the trust.

58 prairiefire  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 6:11:50pm

re: #49 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Some interesting cloud formations above the city yesterday.

[Embedded content]

Bubble wrap!

59 abolitionist  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 6:38:19pm

Charles, fyi: I'm unable to play the video. Message is
Flash Required
Flash is required to view this media. Download Here.

Apparently the problem is with Adobe™ flash, not with this site.

Adobe's site is telling me I have the latest version of flash installed, and that it's "working properly". But on their downloads page, there's a note:
Flash Player does not support 64-bit versions of Windows XP and Vista. Flash Player 11 now includes support for Windows 7 64-bit.

So flash on my Vista 64 system is "working properly" but is, at the same time, "not supported". Good to know. /

60 Neo_  Thu, Jun 28, 2012 8:56:55am

Essentially, Fortune said the "whistleblower" was lying, but it's like Fortune is stuck in a time warp ...

"... These key documents would help the Committee understand how and why the Justice Department moved from denying whistleblower allegations to understanding they were true ..."

Fortune sounds exactly like the DOJ position prior to withdrawing their Feb '11 letter to Issa last November.


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