New Fatah Charter Doesn’t Mention Israel At All

Middle East • Views: 6,745

The Federation of American Scientists’ Project on Government Secrecy has obtained an English translation of the newly revised Fatah charter: OSC Translates the 2009 Fatah Charter.

And there are some interesting changes in the new document; while it still calls for revolution and “struggle,” and refers several times to the “enemy” of the Palestinian people, there is no direct mention at all of Israel, Zionism, or Jews.

The previous version of the Fatah charter explicitly rejected Israel’s right to exist. The question: is the absence of any mention of Israel a sign that the PLO position is softening — or is it evidence of an even more radical rejectionism?

(Hat tip Kobyashi Maru.)

UPDATE at 1/31/10 11:23:49 am:

Barry Rubin throws cold water on the idea that this charter is more “moderate:” Fatah’s New Charter Shows Why Peace Won’t Happen.

Following my article on the new Fatah Charter, I was sent a JTA story about how the new charter is very moderate since it “drops” calls for Israel’s destruction, etc. As I pointed out, the charter says that the old charter is still in force and nothing in the new one contradicts it. So nothing has changed in fact. It is amazing how easy it is for various radical Arab and Islamist groups to fool Western journalists. It always helps to read a document before describing it as a breakthrough for moderation.

Jump to bottom

284 comments
1 SixDegrees  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:04:28am

I'd have to say that words are meaningless when it comes to this group, which needs to be judged by it's actions.

2 jaunte  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:06:14am
The question: is the absence of any mention of Israel a sign that the PLO position is softening — or is it evidence of even more radical rejectionism?


I'd say it's most likely that they haven't softened, but they've learned a little more about external public relations.

3 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:06:43am

I'd say that given that they previously rejected Israel's right to exist, they would need to make a firm statement that they accept Israel's right to exist for this to count as a change.

4 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:07:13am

re: #2 jaunte
I believe that is it. PR

5 bj  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:08:14am

Barry Rubin on the "new" charter: Your text to link...

6 jordash1212  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:09:05am

I suppose it might be the same kind of diplomatic ambiguity which can be used for political maneuvering. Abu Mazen can now claim he's on both sides of the fence. But then again, I consider this an improvement over anything coming out of Palestine at the moment. Abu Mazen has been around long enough to know that dragging his feet and rejecting peace talks is only going to cost more lives. This change in the Fatah charter definitely warms Palestinians up for some possible talks in the future.

7 solomonpanting  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:09:23am

"Enemy" is a much more vague term and easier to use than "ignorance, being used as pawns, corruption, Islamism, genetic anti-Semitism, victimhood."

8 jordash1212  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:10:53am

re: #3 Obdicut

If Abu Mazen says that, he is a dead man.

9 bj  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:11:00am
“This internal charter has been adopted within the framework of adherence to the provisions of the Basic Charter.”

In other words, every detail of the original charter still holds; nothing is repealed, no error admitted, no explicit change of course accepted.

10 kmg  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:12:08am

So what if they don't mention the name of their enemy, if it still focuses on the fact that they have an enemy and there is still a need for a struggle or revolution. It's all about P.R. Their actions are more important than their words.

11 keloyd  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:13:07am

Still, Fatah is the voice of relative moderation. I suspect some Arabs are risking death threats to make this much progress. If some Arab politician is putting his and his family's life in danger to get this far, we should not sit in our comfortable blogosphere and waggle our fingers that he's not turning the place into Vermont.

12 jaunte  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:14:07am

re: #5 bj

Barry Rubin on the "new" charter: Your text to link...

Yep. There it is:

PS: Following my article on the new Fatah Charter, I was sent a JTA story about how the new charter is very moderate since it "drops" calls for Israel's destruction, etc. As I pointed out, the charter says that the old charter is still in force and nothing in the new one contradicts it. So nothing has changed in fact. It is amazing how easy it is for various radical Arab and Islamist groups to fool Western journalists. It always helps to read a document before describing it as a breakthrough for moderation.
13 jhrhv  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:14:48am

I was going to post the same thing. Got the news from a link here at LGF.

The more things change the more they stay the same. If anything this change is just about being more ambiguous about the same old hate. If Fatah was serious about wanting to live in peace they should be saying in clear and certain terms.

14 bj  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:16:45am

That document is typical Arab double speak. Yet, amazingly, there are those who will believe it is different this time.

15 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:17:52am

re: #3 Obdicut

I'd say that given that they previously rejected Israel's right to exist, they would need to make a firm statement that they accept Israel's right to exist for this to count as a change.

"We accept Israel's right to exist until we annihilate it."

16 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:19:41am

"The question: is the absence of any mention of Israel a sign that the PLO position is softening — or is it evidence of an even more radical rejectionism?"

My opinion: If the word "Palestine" is included then the implication would seem to be that this includes all of what is now Israel and they intend for that land to be ruled by Palestinians. I don't perceive this as "taking a softer stance."

17 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:22:50am

The question: is the absence of any mention of Israel a sign that the PLO position is softening — or is it evidence of an even more radical rejectionism

Until they prove otherwise, I would posit that they are now expanding 'enemies" most likely as a sign of solidarity to the Taliban and Al Q,

18 SixDegrees  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:27:23am

re: #12 jaunte

Oops.

Well, that certainly brought this thread to an end quickly.

19 keloyd  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:28:35am

1. Fatah could have reiterated its past anti-Zionism. They had in the past, as I understand the article. They chose not to this time, and their wingnuts are more dangerous than ours, so that sounds more brave than any blog post ever, anywhere.

2. Meh - this would be a big deal in the 50s. Nowadays, Israel can defend itself, whatever comes. The Arabs (and Iran) know it, so they will continue the impotent talk talk talk. US Mafia movies are popular over there, so I'm sure they know what happened in the Untouchables when you bring a knife to a gunfight.

3. Two countries that have not one pint of oil between them want to start a fight. Our interests are involved...how?

20 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:31:07am

re: #19 keloyd

3. Two countries that have not one pint of oil between them want to start a fight. Our interests are involved...how?

hurrr

21 jordash1212  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:31:54am

re: #14 bj

What you see as double-speak can easily be seen as an attempt at gradual implementation of less extreme views by being able to cater to progressive and conservative elements within Fatah. It certainly seems like the younger generations are fighting against the relics of the PLO. The true test will be peace talks and negotiations this year.

22 solomonpanting  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:32:03am

re: #19 keloyd

3. Two countries that have not one pint of oil between them want to start a fight

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
One UN-administered territory wants a fight.

23 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:32:33am
It is amazing how easy it is for various radical Arab and Islamist groups to fool Western journalists.

I think it just makes an easier headline rather than explaining all the nuance involved in Islamist rhetoric regarding the destruction of Israel. Also the reality of the genocidal tendencies from the Palestinians makes them look really bad and violates "fairness" policies from the MSM.

24 jordash1212  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:33:45am

re: #22 solomonpanting

Israel doesn't give a damn about the UN. If the fight is justified, the US (and most likely Germany and the UK) will be behind her.

25 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:36:37am

re: #12 jaunte

"It is amazing how easy it is for various radical Arab and Islamist groups to fool Western journalists."

I contend that many western journalists are really being fooled, but use this group's propaganda to try to fool their readers/viewers.

26 solomonpanting  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:37:04am

re: #24 jordash1212

Israel doesn't give a damn about the UN. If the fight is justified, the US (and most likely Germany and the UK) will be behind her.

True, but the statement reflected an Israeli desire for a fight. Now, what would be the motivation for a fight? Hmmm.

27 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:38:18am

re: #25 rwmofo

"It is amazing how easy it is for various radical Arab and Islamist groups to fool Western journalists."

I contend that many western journalists aren't really being fooled, but use this group's propaganda to try to fool their readers/viewers.

28 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:40:42am

re: #24 jordash1212

Israel doesn't give a damn about the UN. If the fight is justified, the US (and most likely Germany and the UK) will be behind her.

I wonder why...it's not like the Sudans of the world get to chair the Human Rights committees or anything.

oh, wait...

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:40:48am

My take? They're editing out a talking point, nothing more.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:41:09am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

My take? They're editing out a talking point, nothing more.

And creating room for themselves to do whatever seems most expedient in coming years.

31 lawhawk  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:42:05am

Cold water indeed; the new charter specifically incorporates the old charter by reference. So, while the Fatah propagandists can claim that they've taken concrete steps forward, a closer look shows that it's all just so much nonsense.

Fatah is still in the revolution/Israel destroying/denying business.

A much more accurate reflection of the situation is that Fatah still refuses Israel's existence or the 2-state solution.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:42:19am

re: #8 jordash1212

If Abu Mazen says that, he is a dead man.

True, which, opens the question of whether this is as much as he (or someone else) can do right now.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:43:25am

re: #11 keloyd

Still, Fatah is the voice of relative moderation. I suspect some Arabs are risking death threats to make this much progress. If some Arab politician is putting his and his family's life in danger to get this far, we should not sit in our comfortable blogosphere and waggle our fingers that he's not turning the place into Vermont.

Always a fair point. We do sometimes, I think, fall into the trap of thinking that if the moderates want anything from us, they can overnight transform their whole society, and then we'll talk. No one can do that, least of all in a society like Fatah's.

34 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:44:38am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

My take? They're editing out a talking point, nothing more.

...because they know that they have a lot of friends in the media who will eagerly portray this as "softening" their position. Realistically, they've conceded nothing. Concessions are only supposed to come from the Israelis.

35 lawhawk  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:46:29am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

It's amazing how easy it has been for the diplomats to fall for this nonsense time and again. The diplomats would much rather accept the new charter and ignore the incorporation by reference of the old charter - substituting their wishful thinking for the reality that nothing has actually changed.

Then again, the diplomats simply look at process and if there are issues, they can be addressed at a later date.

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:47:55am

re: #34 rwmofo

...because they know that they have a lot of friends in the media who will eagerly portray this as "softening" their position. Realistically, they've conceded nothing. Concessions are only supposed to come from the Israelis.

Hasbarah is a game for the whole family! (I say whole family, despite once having told someone on a forum much like this that if he referred to the Arabs as "the children of Uncle Ishmael" one more time, I was going to howl like a wolf at a full moon.)

37 lawhawk  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:48:04am

And no discussion of Fatah or the PA is complete without realizing that Abbas is now essentially el Presidente for life as there is little chance that elections will be held precisely because Hamas and Fatah are at loggerheads and neither is willing to concede to the other.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:49:26am

re: #37 lawhawk

And no discussion of Fatah or the PA is complete without realizing that Abbas is now essentially el Presidente for life as there is little chance that elections will be held precisely because Hamas and Fatah are at loggerheads and neither is willing to concede to the other.

Which also means that Abbas is now thoroughly wedged into a corner, as far as his own political and personal survival is concerned.

39 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:50:19am

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks for teaching me a new word. Oh wait. You are a teacher, aren't you?

40 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:52:14am

Another possibility is that fatah, in not mentioning Israel, simply hopes and expects that the issue will have been rendered moot** by the time the world gets around to noticing the omission.///
** translation: Iran will have done its thing.

41 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:52:27am

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Hasbarah is a game for the whole family! (I say whole family, despite once having told someone on a forum much like this that if he referred to the Arabs as "the children of Uncle Ishmael" one more time, I was going to howl like a wolf at a full moon.)

that person must have been a good sight more mature than I...I'd never be able to resist taking you up on "howl like a wolf at a full moon"...

42 lawhawk  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:52:34am

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

He's from the Yasir Arafat school of governance, which is to say - it's all about his personal survival. Do only so much to stay in power - pay lip service to diplomacy and a "peace process", let the terrorists have their occasional attacks, and continue limping along. Hamas lets 'em engage in a triangle offense against Israel - so everyone gets something out of this dysfunctional relationship.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:52:35am

re: #39 rwmofo

Thanks for teaching me a new word. Oh wait. You are a teacher, aren't you?

High school English!

What was the word? Hasbarah?

44 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:52:52am

I think that this is evidence that Fatah is aware that there are people in the West who can translate Arabic languages. And it shows just how intransigent their position is, given their belief that leaving out a prepositional phrase somehow will gloss over their meaning--unless they have expanded the field of their struggle war to include Hamas.

45 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:53:24am

re: #41 Aceofwhat?

that person must have been a good sight more mature than I...I'd never be able to resist taking you up on "howl like a wolf at a full moon"...

I once had a date that did that !!

46 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:54:00am

re: #45 sattv4u2

I once had a date that did that !!

Keeper

47 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:54:14am

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

High school English!

What was the word? Hasbarah?

Si, Senora.

48 austin_blue  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:55:18am

OT: Breaking

Looks like we got a big fish

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

49 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:55:27am

re: #19 keloyd

Nowadays, Israel can defend itself

We know that, but she's not allowed to.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:55:30am

re: #40 tradewind

Another possibility is that fatah, in not mentioning Israel, simply hopes and expects that the issue will have been rendered moot** by the time the world gets around to noticing the omission.///
** translation: Iran will have done its thing.

By 'thing' you mean a nuclear attack, or something else?

51 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:55:30am

re: #45 sattv4u2

I once had a date that did that !!

So you eat oysters too? Works for me. Heh.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:55:47am

re: #41 Aceofwhat?

that person must have been a good sight more mature than I...I'd never be able to resist taking you up on "howl like a wolf at a full moon"...

Rabbi Arthur Waskow. No noticeable sense of humor.

53 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:56:24am

re: #46 Aceofwhat?

Keeper

She would have been, but the electrolysis just for her back was cost prohibitive!

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:56:33am

re: #44 Bob Levin

I think that this is evidence that Fatah is aware that there are people in the West who can translate Arabic languages. And it shows just how intransigent their position is, given their belief that leaving out a prepositional phrase somehow will gloss over their meaning--unless they have expanded the field of their struggle war to include Hamas.

Fuctionally, they have--thereby screwing up an already beyond-tenuous situation much worse.

55 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:56:38am

re: #42 lawhawk

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has surrounded himself with many of the corrupt officials who used to work for his predecessor, Yasser Arafat, and that’s why Hamas will one day take control of the West Bank, Fahmi Shabaneh, who was appointed by Abbas four years ago to root out corruption in the Palestinian Authority, said on Thursday.

In an exclusive interview with The Jerusalem Post, Shabaneh, who until recently was in charge of the Anti-Corruption Department in the PA’s General Intelligence Service (GIS), warned that what happened in the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2007, when Hamas managed to overthrow the Fatah-controlled regime, is likely to recur in the West Bank.

“Had it not been for the presence of the Israeli authorities in the West Bank, Hamas would have done what they did in the Gaza Strip,” Shabaneh told the Post. “It’s hard to find people in the West Bank who support the Palestinian Authority. People are fed up with the financial corruption and mismanagement of the Palestinian Authority.”

Shabaneh said that many Palestinians in the West Bank have lost hope that the PA would one day be reformed. “The Palestinian Authority is very corrupt and needs to be overhauled,” he said.

Shabaneh cited several specific cases of alleged corruption within Fatah and the PA in the course of the interview, including asserting that Fatah personnel stole much of a $3.2 million donation given by the US to Fatah ahead of the 2006 Palestinian parliamentary election, won by Hamas, which had been intended to improve Fatah’s image and boost its chances of winning.

SNIP

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:57:24am

re: #48 austin_blue

OT: Breaking

Looks like we got a big fish

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

OK, am I the only one who looks at that picture and thinks that except for the gun, those guys look like they could have sailed with Columbus?

57 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:58:27am

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist
Not something else.
They may be so deep in denial that they really believe someone/Iran will change the map.
God forbid.

58 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:58:48am

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

Must be the hats.

59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:59:25am

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

The Nina the Pinta and the I KEEL YOU!

60 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:59:56am

re: #48 austin_blue
Good to see that the drones are being used for something besides enhancing the plot of 24....//

61 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:00:16pm

re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Nina the Pinta and the I KEEL YOU!

Heh.

62 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:00:54pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

High school English!

What was the word? Hasbarah?

Elder of Ziyon has an anti-Semitic (excuse me, anti-Zionist) troll at his blog who uses the name "Hasbarah buster." Why Elder keeps its gamy buttocks around, I have no idea.

63 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:01:33pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, am I the only one who looks at that picture and thinks that except for the gun, those guys look like they could have sailed with Columbus?

On the Nina, the Pinta or Santa Aisha?

64 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:02:09pm

Ruh Oh. I think I need to work my AVG System troubles for the last day or so.

BBL

65 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:02:15pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

Rabbi Arthur Waskow. No noticeable sense of humor.

Who made Waskow a rabbi? The same guru who ordained Michael Lerner?

66 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:02:22pm

re: #62 Alouette
Maybe for the same reason we should always have a few howling moonbats around... to remind us.
When species go extinct, it's easy to think ' there never was such a thing'.

67 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:02:25pm

re: #48 austin_blue

OT: Breaking

Looks like we got a big fish

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Spectacular. Any comment from code pink about the evil warmongering fascist drone success?

68 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:03:21pm

re: #67 Aceofwhat?

Spectacular. Any comment from code pink about the evil warmongering fascist drone success?

Yes ,, it's Bushs' fault

69 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:03:38pm

re: #67 Aceofwhat?
Oh, they're probably all over there, serving as human shields. Puttin' their money where their mouths are, so to speak.
/sure/

70 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:03:51pm

re: #67 Aceofwhat?

Obama is a "drone loving" murderer! Ain't he, Code Pink?

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:04:18pm

re: #57 tradewind

Not something else.
They may be so deep in denial that they really believe someone/Iran will change the map.
God forbid.

Practical question here for you weapons people. Is there any conceivable way Iran could carry out a nuclear attack on Israel without taking out the Palestinian territories, and part of Jordan?

(As for denial, the Palestinians are sure in it if they expect Iran would pee on them if they were on fire, except to serve Iran's interests. But denial seems to be what the Palestinian economy runs on, even more than foreign aid.)

72 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:04:24pm

This chick is a Rock Star.

73 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:04:47pm

re: #68 sattv4u2

Yes ,, it's Bushs' fault

I'm back from getting my Hair Dyed blue for Super Bowl week..
Dang I look good in Blue

74 solomonpanting  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:04:48pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, am I the only one who looks at that picture and thinks that except for the gun, those guys look like they could have sailed with Columbus?

Why do you think the island was named Hezbanallah?

75 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:05:15pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist
Not a weapons person, but isn't that the purpose of a ' tactical nuke' ?

76 keloyd  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:05:35pm

China is setting an example for us all. Look at the international press or Al Jazeera's reaction to the Uiger Muslims vs. a few hundred Arab farms who were displaced by that protective wall. If you are beholden to others for protection and support, you are judged much more harshly. Their meddling restricts your military and political actions. If your neighbors are scared of you and owe you money, almost anything you do goes without too much comment. Look at that Mattel executive in China - lead toys get recalled, then the executive has to apologize to the Chinese for all the trouble. Somewhere, a Chinese diplomat was saying "I've got your hasbarah right here!"

Morality applies to people; the law of the jungle applies to nations. Strength is the only thing that is real and meaningful.

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:05:36pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Must be the hats.

Yeah, and the beards and the doublet-cut vests. The sleeves should be gathered to cuffs, but it's pretty striking.

78 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:06:18pm

re: #19 keloyd

At the risk of being repetitious, if you think that the only thing the Middle East is good for, for the US, is oil, then perhaps you don't have as much affection for science as most folks around these parts. Israel is a world leader in science and technology. If we removed all of the Israeli discoveries in agriculture, high technology, and medicine, your life would be significantly less comfortable, your vulnerability to disease would be much greater, and there would be a much higher yearly death toll from starvation and vitamin deficiencies.

And yes, the idea, in theory of the UNRWA was indeed to turn areas inhabited by Palestinian refugee camps into Vermont. I believe they've been working on this for over 60 years, poured in billions if not trillions of dollars, with zero net results.

Here we are 60 years later, and the issue is still which areas of Israel should be Judenrein. I can't think of a better example of full blown psychosis masquerading as politics, post WWII.

79 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:06:18pm

re: #73 HoosierHoops
When the Saints go marching in, you're gonna wish you'd stuck with black and gold...///

80 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:06:19pm

re: #70 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Obama is a "drone loving" murderer! Ain't he, Code Pink?

Cerebrum vibrating...must contain...


(NSFW)

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:06:36pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

I have no idea, but I am not sure Iran could carry off a nuclear attack without taking out Iran.

82 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:06:59pm

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I have no idea, but I am not sure Iran could carry off a nuclear attack without taking out Iran.

Zing.

83 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:07:45pm

re: #82 MandyManners
Samson.

84 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:07:57pm

re: #73 HoosierHoops

I'm back from getting my Hair Dyed blue for Super Bowl week..
Dang I look good in Blue

And you're doing this for 8 DAYS !?!?!?

I love my Patriots/Red Sox/ Celtics/ Bruins but at MOST I'll wear a Sweat/T-Shirt on the day of the game!!

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:08:09pm

re: #65 Alouette

Who made Waskow a rabbi? The same guru who ordained Michael Lerner?

I think so, actually.

86 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:08:17pm

re: #72 rwmofo

I love Sara.

87 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:08:23pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Practical question here for you weapons people. Is there any conceivable way Iran could carry out a nuclear attack on Israel without taking out the Palestinian territories, and part of Jordan?

(As for denial, the Palestinians are sure in it if they expect Iran would pee on them if they were on fire, except to serve Iran's interests. But denial seems to be what the Palestinian economy runs on, even more than foreign aid.)

I think so. A small device (i.e. Nagasaki-sized) might cause some radiation side effects outside of the border, but is a city leveler, not a country killer.

And i think that even the most pessimistic don't believe that Iran can build a big device.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:08:43pm

re: #68 sattv4u2

Yes ,, it's Bushs' fault

You'll be proud of Code Pink. They have fully moved on to blaming Obama for the drones.

89 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:09:15pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist
That puts them miles ahead of the administration.///

90 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:09:45pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

You'll be proud of Code Pink. They have fully moved on to blaming Obama for the drones.

You and I have WAY different definitions of "PROUD"!!!

/

91 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:09:50pm

re: #79 tradewind

When the Saints go marching in, you're gonna wish you'd stuck with black and gold...///

The Saints are America's team this week...Who doesn't like them? So far all the Vegas money is on the Colts...
Should be a great SuperBowl.. Good Luck Saints Fans

92 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:10:24pm

re: #73 HoosierHoops

I'm back from getting my Hair Dyed blue for Super Bowl week..
Dang I look good in Blue

WAIT ,,, you ARE an ADULT ,, right !?!?!?!

////

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:10:49pm

re: #75 tradewind

Not a weapons person, but isn't that the purpose of a ' tactical nuke' ?

I really don't know what modern nuclear technology looks like. How fine-tuned can such a thing be, and perhaps more importantly, how fine-tuned can Iran actually hope to get?

94 Sinistershade  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:10:52pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Practical question here for you weapons people. Is there any conceivable way Iran could carry out a nuclear attack on Israel without taking out the Palestinian territories, and part of Jordan?

Even strategic nukes aren't that big (usually). A single warhead, particularly of the size a new nuclear power is likely to produce, likely would not even take out all of Jerusalem.

95 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:11:29pm

re: #84 sattv4u2

And you're doing this for 8 DAYS !?!?!?

I love my Patriots/Red Sox/ Celtics/ Bruins but at MOST I'll wear a Sweat/T-Shirt on the day of the game!!

Yup 8 days...I'll be in Singapore for the next 3 football seasons.. I'm going all out

96 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:11:57pm

re: #72 rwmofo

This chick is a Rock Star.

I see your rock star and raise you a rock star.

97 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:12:11pm

re: #91 HoosierHoops

The hands down two best teams in the NFL are playing in the Super Bowl. Ain't that a snap?!?!

98 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:12:22pm

re: #95 HoosierHoops

Yup 8 days...I'll be in Singapore for the next 3 football seasons.. I'm going all out

They don't have blue hair dye in Singapore!?!?!

99 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:12:51pm

re: #91 HoosierHoops
I'm torn, really. The Saint are such a great story, but there's no one like Peyton.

100 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:13:19pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

They don't have blue hair dye in Singapore!?!?!

Don't you get caned for blue hair dye in Singapore!?!?

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:13:30pm

re: #87 Aceofwhat?

I think so. A small device (i.e. Nagasaki-sized) might cause some radiation side effects outside of the border, but is a city leveler, not a country killer.

And i think that even the most pessimistic don't believe that Iran can build a big device.

Thanks. My understanding of these things sort of stops around the 1950s.

BTW, did people note that the man who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki just died?

102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:13:33pm

re: #96 Aceofwhat?

I see your rock star and raise you a rock star.


[Video]

I'll see you rock star and raise you a "What could've been..."

103 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:13:44pm

re: #99 tradewind

I'm torn, really. The Saint are such a great story, but there's no one like Peyton.

Agree. I'll root for NO, but expect Peyton.

104 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:14:01pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist
What we should be concerned with is how long we... or anyone... are/is going to sit by and let Iran continue to tune up.//

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:14:20pm

re: #94 Sinistershade

Even strategic nukes aren't that big (usually). A single warhead, particularly of the size a new nuclear power is likely to produce, likely would not even take out all of Jerusalem.

Thank you, and I'm sorry I asked. My stomach acid is turning on me.

:)

106 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:14:37pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

They don't have blue hair dye in Singapore!?!?!

I may have problems finding football fans next year at 4am in Singapore..
I'll dye Winston Blue next year..Somebody has to pay the price...

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:15:05pm

re: #104 tradewind

What we should be concerned with is how long we... or anyone... are/is going to sit by and let Iran continue to tune up.//

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I think Israel carries out a strike within eighteen months.

108 keloyd  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:15:19pm

re: #78 Bob Levin

I think we agree. Israel fights above its weight class by nearly every measurement, not just militarily. Still, our foreign policy is usually 98% what's-in-it-for-us, and 2% make-the-world-safe-for-democracy window-dressing hasbara (thankyou SFZ). No one else is any better, just sayin.

By that yardstick, the US today has no interest in militarily helping a nation that has enough economy and resources to manage without our military aid. I wonder if they turned down our5-10 billion a year in exchange for the freedom to do as they like, that it would be a smart move?

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:16:04pm

re: #106 HoosierHoops

I may have problems finding football fans next year at 4am in Singapore..
I'll dye Winston Blue next year..Somebody has to pay the price...

I've been told that in medieval Europe it wasn't uncommon for cloth-dyers to dye dogs and cats to serve as advertisements of the colors they could do.

110 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:16:04pm

re: #99 tradewind

I'm torn, really. The Saint are such a great story, but there's no one like Peyton.

I refreshed in order to up-ding you.

111 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:16:05pm

re: #91 HoosierHoops

The Saints are America's team this week...Who doesn't like them? So far all the Vegas money is on the Colts...
Should be a great SuperBowl.. Good Luck Saints Fans

Yep. Hopefully we get to see a 51-50 shootout.

112 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:16:32pm

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

Don't you get caned for blue hair dye in Singapore!?!?

In bed.

113 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:16:32pm

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'll see you rock star and raise you a "What could've been..."

That was well done. Still playing in the background. I'm not sure that my "what was" can beat your "what could've been"...

114 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:16:57pm

re: #106 HoosierHoops

I may have problems finding football fans next year at 4am in Singapore..I'll dye Winston Blue next year..Somebody has to pay the price...

No you won't. Every Sunday we send 2-3 NFL games to the Pacific rim from our Los Angeles teleport (as well as the weeknight games,,, ). I know theres an earth station in Singapore that them in.

They wouldn't do that if there wasn't a market there for them

115 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:17:47pm

re: #104 tradewind

What we should be concerned with is how long we... or anyone... are/is going to sit by and let Iran continue to tune up.//

According to an article in the NYT I linked yesterday, we're putting up Patriot batteries in four Arab nations and are increasing our naval presence in the Persian Gulf right now.

116 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:18:01pm

re: #110 MandyManners
And having had a temperamental dinger while I was working last week, I know just what a pain that is... thanks!

117 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:18:34pm

re: #108 keloyd

sheesh

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:18:45pm

re: #113 Aceofwhat?

A lizard, (probably a former lizard) used to see Eva play live in and around DC. I'd love to go back in time and see her before she died.

119 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:18:54pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Practical question here for you weapons people. Is there any conceivable way Iran could carry out a nuclear attack on Israel without taking out the Palestinian territories, and part of Jordan?

(As for denial, the Palestinians are sure in it if they expect Iran would pee on them if they were on fire, except to serve Iran's interests. But denial seems to be what the Palestinian economy runs on, even more than foreign aid.)

One factor we don't have is how accurate the Iranians may be. They could accidentally hit Gaza City - or Damascus.

120 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:19:12pm

re: #115 MandyManners
Kind of gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach while making me glad at the same time.

121 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:19:17pm

re: #118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A lizard, (probably a former lizard) used to see Eva play live in and around DC. I'd love to go back in time and see her before she died.

voice of an angel, that one-

122 keloyd  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:19:56pm

re: #117 Aceofwhat?

please elaborate.

123 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:20:37pm

re: #108 keloyd

W
T
F......

124 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:20:46pm

Hoosier, will you be painting horseshoes on your cheeks? If so, which ones...

125 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:20:47pm

The Obama administration is accelerating the deployment of new defenses against possible Iranian missile attacks in the Persian Gulf, placing special ships off the Iranian coast and antimissile systems in at least four Arab countries, according to administration and military officials.

The deployments come at a critical turning point in President Obama’s dealings with Iran. After months of unsuccessful diplomatic outreach, the administration is trying to win broad international consensus for sanctions against the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, which Western nations say control a covert nuclear arms program.

Mr. Obama spoke of the shift in his State of the Union address, warning of “consequences” if Iran continued to defy United Nations demands to stop manufacturing nuclear fuel. And Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton publicly warned China on Friday that its opposition to sanctions was shortsighted.

The news that the United States is deploying antimissile defenses — including a rare public discussion of them by Gen. David H. Petraeus — appears to be part of a coordinated administration strategy to increase pressure on Iran.

SNIP

126 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:21:06pm

re: #114 sattv4u2

No you won't. Every Sunday we send 2-3 NFL games to the Pacific rim from our Los Angeles teleport (as well as the weeknight games,,, ). I know theres an earth station in Singapore that them in.

They wouldn't do that if there wasn't a market there for them

Awesome! I hope they have plenty of Basketball on TV there..I have to put my 73" Samsung in Storage...And give my Dad the keys to my car in Napa..
That sucks..*wink*

127 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:21:07pm

re: #116 tradewind

And having had a temperamental dinger while I was working last week, I know just what a pain that is... thanks!

Did the buttons fall off the page?

128 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:22:09pm

re: #124 The Shadow Do

Hoosier, will you be painting horseshoes on your cheeks? If so, which ones...

No just blue hair...Damn I look good...

129 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:22:09pm

re: #119 rwmofo

One factor we don't have is how accurate the Iranians may be. They could accidentally hit Gaza City - or Damascus.

the other thing we don't know (unless we know and i'm not "we") is how good our military is at recognizing an impending launch with our satellite surveillance. it's hard for our missile batteries to intercept another missile mid-flight. it's reeeaaally easy to intercept another missile 5 seconds after launch...

if they can't countdown to launch without our seeing it, they don't have much of a chance imho. let's pray that's the case...

130 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:22:23pm

re: #115 MandyManners

According to an article in the NYT I linked yesterday, we're putting up Patriot batteries in four Arab nations and are increasing our naval presence in the Persian Gulf right now.

Oh great. The NY Times is still publishing information about our military/strategy. I'm going to try to think about something else now.

131 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:22:28pm

re: #117 Aceofwhat?

sheesh

sheesh squared!

132 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:22:48pm

re: #122 keloyd

please elaborate.

see #131

133 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:23:02pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks. My understanding of these things sort of stops around the 1950s.

BTW, did people note that the man who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki just died?

Yes, about 3 weeks ago. Hiroshima, Nagasaki Survivor Dies at 93
Tsutomu Yamaguchi

134 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:23:17pm

re: #106 HoosierHoops

I may have problems finding football fans next year at 4am in Singapore..
I'll dye Winston Blue next year..Somebody has to pay the price...

Hey buddy, who is Winston?

135 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:23:36pm

re: #130 rwmofo

Oh great. The NY Times is still publishing information about our military/strategy. I'm going to try to think about something else now.

Read the article. Gen. Petraeus talked with the NYT.

136 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:23:50pm

re: #122 keloyd

please elaborate.

i have in the past. your apparent unwillingness or inability to learn is fatiguing. it's not nice to pretend that someone hasn't answered an identical question before.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:24:02pm

re: #118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A lizard, (probably a former lizard) used to see Eva play live in and around DC. I'd love to go back in time and see her before she died.

Now, that's a much better back-in-time aspiration than drowning the Buddha in the Genghis River!

/Old college question: if you could pick a time and place in history to live in or visit, where would you go?

138 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:24:09pm

re: #134 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey buddy, who is Winston?

My little dog..See my avatar..he hangs with the Hoopster

139 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:24:23pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Early nukes are dirty nukes. Efficiency and ultra downsizing came to us with time and tests. Apart from stolen weapons, look for NK and Iran to be at best 2nd generation tech.
Remember the neutrom bomb? I think thats 3rd gen. Way beyond the new nations


Generation Mass Range Kg.

1 st Gen. 1,158-850 *
2 nd Gen. 900 – 750 (650)
3 rd. Gen. 750 -- 500
4 th Gen. 500 -- 400
5 th. Gen. 450 -- 200

*This is based on the 1 st generation nuclear warheads of Pakistan.

140 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:25:12pm

re: #108 keloyd

My understanding is that the aid is spread out equally--because the US does have a large interest in oil politics. They do not want a full scale war. So aid goes to both Israel and Egypt, and whoever else.

But I also have the notion that quite a bit of assistance to Israel is in the form of loan guarantees--which are paid back.

However, the US uses such loans as leverage over Israeli politics, at least they try to. Consequently, since the US Presidential election, Israel has been trying to cultivate stronger alliances with other countries, which ironically include Russia.

Even more irony. Most of these loan guarantees are used for purchasing US made military equipment. The US has a huge interest in maintaining this relationship because if it stops, then Israel will end up designing its own version of what they need, and will then be competing with the US in the world's arms market. This has already happened a few times, and has made diplomatic life between these two countries uncomfortable--as the US has applied pressure on Israel to cancel contracts they've made with other nations.

141 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:25:26pm

re: #138 HoosierHoops

My little dog..See my avatar..he hangs with the Hoopster

OMG is he a Rat terrier? I have one also named Yoda for the ears.

142 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:25:40pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, that's a much better back-in-time aspiration than drowning the Buddha in the Genghis River!

/Old college question: if you could pick a time and place in history to live in or visit, where would you go?

as far into the future as possible. i want to see another planet.

143 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:25:49pm

K Kiddies

Last commercial has been run for this college bball game

gotta go get all set up for the Pro Bowl and a couple of NBA games


Cya

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:25:57pm

re: #119 rwmofo

One factor we don't have is how accurate the Iranians may be. They could accidentally hit Gaza City - or Damascus.

Well, since I don't have any friends or loved ones in Gaza City or Damascus, that sounds better to ME, but, uh...

145 Mr. Crankypants  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:26:00pm

Hello Muddah, Hello Fatah

146 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:26:24pm

Oh, and good going to Israel for taking out Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, Hamas' senior military official and the founder of the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades.

147 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:26:53pm

re: #128 HoosierHoops

No just blue hair...Damn I look good...

Saints fans cheeks will be painted thusly:
(WH * DAT)

148 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:27:55pm

re: #145 PT Barnum

Hello Muddah, Hello Fatah

Here I am at Camp Intifada.

149 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:28:20pm

re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote

OMG is he a Rat terrier? I have one also named Yoda for the ears.

He is a spoiled Chihuahua That eats Angus Steaks and Bottled Water...

150 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:28:50pm

re: #135 MandyManners

Read the article. Gen. Petraeus talked with the NYT.

OK. This just reminded me of the Times articles blowing our cover on how we tracked terrorists, followed by their reporters getting an award for it.

If Gen. Petraeus was their source then I trust that he was providing only the information that could be easily verified rather than classified stuff.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:28:53pm

re: #140 Bob Levin

My understanding is that the aid is spread out equally--because the US does have a large interest in oil politics. They do not want a full scale war. So aid goes to both Israel and Egypt, and whoever else.

But I also have the notion that quite a bit of assistance to Israel is in the form of loan guarantees--which are paid back.

However, the US uses such loans as leverage over Israeli politics, at least they try to. Consequently, since the US Presidential election, Israel has been trying to cultivate stronger alliances with other countries, which ironically include Russia.

Even more irony. Most of these loan guarantees are used for purchasing US made military equipment. The US has a huge interest in maintaining this relationship because if it stops, then Israel will end up designing its own version of what they need, and will then be competing with the US in the world's arms market. This has already happened a few times, and has made diplomatic life between these two countries uncomfortable--as the US has applied pressure on Israel to cancel contracts they've made with other nations.

Egypt is our second largest aid recipient. Something Material World forgot to mention.

152 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:29:16pm

re: #125 MandyManners

Tells me the administration has openly conceded nukes to Iran.

153 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:29:43pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Here I am at Camp Intifada.

Camp is very entertaining,
And they say we'll have some fun if bombs stop raining!

154 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:29:51pm

re: #150 rwmofo

OK. This just reminded me of the Times articles blowing our cover on how we tracked terrorists, followed by their reporters getting an award for it.

If Gen. Petraeus was their source then I trust that he was providing only the information that could be easily verified rather than classified stuff.

He didn't name the nations but other officials did.

155 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:30:33pm

re: #152 The Shadow Do

Tells me the administration has openly conceded nukes to Iran.

Or, they're ready to pursue tougher sanctions. Clinton's been all over Chna's ass about backing us.

156 Sinistershade  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:30:35pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

You're welcome. Let me revise that slightly. Jerusalem is a lot smaller than I thought. A 1 megaton blast, airburst at 2500 feet, might destroy most of it. A new nuclear power would not have anything that large, though. Pakistan's largest tests have been about 4% of that yield.

157 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:31:05pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Here I am at Camp Intifada.

Camp is very,
Entertaining

And we know we'll have fun
when we start reigning!

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:31:17pm

re: #156 Sinistershade

You're welcome. Let me revise that slightly. Jerusalem is a lot smaller than I thought. A 1 megaton blast, airburst at 2500 feet, might destroy most of it. A new nuclear power would not have anything that large, though. Pakistan's largest tests have been about 4% of that yield.

(Throws up.)

Thanks! I love learning new things!

159 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:31:27pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, that's a much better back-in-time aspiration than drowning the Buddha in the Genghis River!

/Old college question: if you could pick a time and place in history to live in or visit, where would you go?

Well, the typical answer would be Braunau, Austria. on 21 April 1899, to strangle Hitler in his cradle./
Not that I'm down with infanticide, but that is the typical college answer, isn't it?

160 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:32:16pm

re: #139 Rightwingconspirator

Early nukes are dirty nukes. Efficiency and ultra downsizing came to us with time and tests. Apart from stolen weapons, look for NK and Iran to be at best 2nd generation tech.
Remember the neutrom bomb? I think thats 3rd gen. Way beyond the new nations


Generation Mass Range Kg.

1 st Gen. 1,158-850 *
2 nd Gen. 900 – 750 (650)
3 rd. Gen. 750 -- 500
4 th Gen. 500 -- 400
5 th. Gen. 450 -- 200

*This is based on the 1 st generation nuclear warheads of Pakistan.

I think that a Hiroshima or Nagasaki like device is much too large for most delivery vehicles that the Iranians could build. At least I believe that is the case from the various news reports I have seen. That may sound like good news, but second generation weapons followed first gen very, very rapidly. The key lies in increasing neutron density in the fissile core and there are many, many ways to do it. The most common is adding a berylium jacket.

As to Neutron bombs, that is a totally different game. A neutron bomb is essentially a super "clean" in the sense of highly efficient, hydrogen bomb. Fusion bombs are trickier than fission bombs. I think it is likely that the Iranians would be some years away from being able to manufacture one of those.

However, a "plain" atomic bomb is more than terrible enough.

161 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:32:31pm

re: #159 iceweasel

Well, the typical answer would be Braunau, Austria. on 21 April 1899, to strangle Hitler in his cradle./
Not that I'm down with infanticide, but that is the typical college answer, isn't it?

You know, for that particular case, i'd give you a pass...

162 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:33:23pm

I knew it.

163 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:33:33pm

re: #159 iceweasel

Well, the typical answer would be Braunau, Austria. on 21 April 1899, to strangle Hitler in his cradle./
Not that I'm down with infanticide, but that is the typical college answer, isn't it?

And yes, I realise this is a terrible thing to say, but seriously, if one could time travel it feels like a moral imperative to kill Hitler.

164 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:33:40pm

re: #127 MandyManners

No, but when I tried to ding up ( didn't have a reason to use the down), the little wheel just kept on turnin'.....

165 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:33:42pm

re: #155 MandyManners

Or, they're ready to pursue tougher sanctions. Clinton's been all over Chna's ass about backing us.

And China just told us tough luck regarding any ongoiing aid with NK or Iran or terrorism for that matter. That's what we get for letting Taiwan survive, I guess.

I don't think Hillory carries a whole lot of weight in Beijing.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:33:44pm

re: #159 iceweasel

Well, the typical answer would be Braunau, Austria. on 21 April 1899, to strangle Hitler in his cradle./
Not that I'm down with infanticide, but that is the typical college answer, isn't it?

Well, I hung out with RenFaire people, so they had a somewhat different focus...

Suppose you can't change anything, you're not there to alter the course of history...you just get to be there, be part of it. Where then?

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:34:16pm

re: #162 MandyManners

I knew it.

You knew it? You knew it! What did you know?

168 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:34:30pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

And China just told us tough luck regarding any ongoiing aid with NK or Iran or terrorism for that matter. That's what we get for letting Taiwan survive, I guess.

I don't think Hillory carries a whole lot of weight in Beijing.

We pissed them off this week selling arms to Taiwan.

169 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:34:50pm

re: #155 MandyManners
Not the Dreaded Sanctions!
Second in force only to the Strongly Worded Letter of Disapproval.//

170 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:34:51pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

You knew it? You knew it! What did you know?

My buttons dropped off when I hit "new comments".

171 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:35:53pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I hung out with RenFaire people, so they had a somewhat different focus...

Suppose you can't change anything, you're not there to alter the course of history...you just get to be there, be part of it. Where then?

Triassic. The boy inside of me still really wants to see dinosaurs. Jurassic Park was a tease...

172 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:35:54pm

re: #169 tradewind

Not the Dreaded Sanctions!
Second in force only to the Strongly Worded Letter of Disapproval.//

Maybe BHO wants to go as far as he can using that tool before he commits to agreeing with Israel on the need for a pre-emptive strike.

173 keloyd  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:35:55pm
174 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:35:56pm

re: #163 iceweasel

And yes, I realise this is a terrible thing to say, but seriously, if one could time travel it feels like a moral imperative to kill Hitler.

So many monsters to kill, though, and so little time...or so much...

Anyone here a fan of Chappelle's Player Haters time travel episode?

"When are we gonna get our freedom?"

"That's a good question, my brother. How about...now-ish?" (Shoots slaveholder.)

175 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:36:01pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, that's a much better back-in-time aspiration than drowning the Buddha in the Genghis River!

/Old college question: if you could pick a time and place in history to live in or visit, where would you go?

Assuming that movie was an accurate portrayal of the Pitcairn Islands (or at least the actresses who played the locals), that looked like fun for a horny old bastard such as rwmofo to visit.

176 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:36:07pm

re: #170 MandyManners

My buttons dropped off when I hit "new comments".

sew in a zipper!

177 ryannon  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:36:10pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, am I the only one who looks at that picture and thinks that except for the gun, those guys look like they could have sailed with Columbus?

With all respect to our own forces, those guys are often incredible fighters. What a pity they're not on our side.

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:36:15pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

And China just told us tough luck regarding any ongoiing aid with NK or Iran or terrorism for that matter. That's what we get for letting Taiwan survive, I guess.

I don't think Hillory carries a whole lot of weight in Beijing.

Well, didn't they say her mama dresses her funny?

179 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:37:00pm

re: #168 MandyManners

We pissed them off this week selling arms to Taiwan.

Yup, we will just have to learn our place I suppose. Maybe we can toss Taiwan, SK and Israel all under the bus. That would make for lots more smiley faces from Beijing to Walmart.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:37:01pm

re: #170 MandyManners

My buttons dropped off when I hit "new comments".

I wish I could offer some advice. I am completely useless when it comes to techie things.

181 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:37:23pm

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

I do not think Iran will have a missile ready warhead for some time-years. Maybe 5 or 10. I think for now the risk is a Pakistani warhead on a truck or suicide plane.

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

Heh, it would be a big rocket to carry Fat Man or Little Boy! Yeah that's not happening. I speculate the Pakistanis got to second generation to begin with. AQ Khan had some modeling software I suspect, and shared, shared shared. They have missile size warheads.

182 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:37:31pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

So many monsters to kill, though, and so little time...or so much...

Anyone here a fan of Chappelle's Player Haters time travel episode?

"When are we gonna get our freedom?"

"That's a good question, my brother. How about...now-ish?" (Shoots slaveholder.)

Fan of all things Chappelle, including that episode.

183 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:37:47pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I hung out with RenFaire people, so they had a somewhat different focus...

Suppose you can't change anything, you're not there to alter the course of history...you just get to be there, be part of it. Where then?

See, now that's a much nicer question, and more interesting, and less fraught with moral imperatives. Deserves thought.

We can change our gender though, right? Because in general being female hasn't been terribly interesting or afforded one a wide perspective on historical events until recently, even as an observer.

184 solomonpanting  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:37:57pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

I don't think Hillory carries a whole lot of weight in Beijing.

Does it have the moon's gravity?

185 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:38:26pm

re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, didn't they say her mama dresses her funny?

and wears combat boots!

186 Sinistershade  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:38:49pm

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

I've certainly learned plenty from you!

187 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:39:04pm

re: #179 The Shadow Do

Yup, we will just have to learn our place I suppose. Maybe we can toss Taiwan, SK and Israel all under the bus. That would make for lots more smiley faces from Beijing to Walmart.

No way.

188 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:39:14pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I hung out with RenFaire people, so they had a somewhat different focus...

Suppose you can't change anything, you're not there to alter the course of history...you just get to be there, be part of it. Where then?

See the pyramids being built. Come back to now and report.

189 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:39:26pm

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

I wish I could offer some advice. I am completely useless when it comes to techie things.

I'm not the only one it's happened to here recently.

190 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:39:36pm

re: #172 MandyManners
Maybe so.
But ...if I am Israel, somehow I don't really care whether or not BHO has love for my plan to survive as a nation.

191 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:39:50pm

re: #185 The Shadow Do

and wears combat boots!

They help her run when she's under fire.

192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:40:07pm

re: #145 PT Barnum

Hello Muddah, Hello Fatah

Hello Mullah, Hello Fatah

193 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:40:22pm

re: #183 iceweasel

See, now that's a much nicer question, and more interesting, and less fraught with moral imperatives. Deserves thought.

We can change our gender though, right? Because in general being female hasn't been terribly interesting or afforded one a wide perspective on historical events until recently, even as an observer.

And, more practically, if you go to a place without proper facilities, it's just plain easier to pee as a guy.

(oh noes i didn't!)

194 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:40:23pm

re: #184 solomonpanting

Does it have the moon's gravity?

GravitASS

195 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:40:42pm

re: #190 tradewind

Maybe so.
But ...if I am Israel, somehow I don't really care whether or not BHO has love for my plan to survive as a nation.

I doubt it keeps P.M. Netanyahu up at night.

196 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:41:19pm

re: #194 The Shadow Do

GravitASS

Hey. Clinton has a fine figure for a woman her age.

197 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:41:20pm

re: #191 MandyManners

They help her run when she's under fire.

LOL

198 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:42:09pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

So many monsters to kill, though, and so little time...or so much...

Anyone here a fan of Chappelle's Player Haters time travel episode?

"When are we gonna get our freedom?"

"That's a good question, my brother. How about...now-ish?" (Shoots slaveholder.)

That's the other reason I put the slash tag there-- because there are so many monsters.
I don't know that, I'll check it out.

Again, apologies for anyone I offended there, and I know it's an awful thing to say, but my other serious point is that Hitler shows up in all college philosophy discussions eventually. "well, what if HITLER--" etc. Or, the version Jonah Goldberg has recently parlayed into a book, "X is just like HITLER"-- kinda the pre-internet version of godwin's law.

199 Silvergirl  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:43:07pm

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been told that in medieval Europe it wasn't uncommon for cloth-dyers to dye dogs and cats to serve as advertisements of the colors they could do.

There's some fascinating trivia. Poor lil pups 'n kitties.

200 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:43:45pm

re: #198 iceweasel

Who could really stand in front of Hitler's crib and not seriously contemplate the options? If you have to apologize, then so do i...

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:43:55pm

re: #183 iceweasel

See, now that's a much nicer question, and more interesting, and less fraught with moral imperatives. Deserves thought.

We can change our gender though, right? Because in general being female hasn't been terribly interesting or afforded one a wide perspective on historical events until recently, even as an observer.

I always insisted that gender changes be available--one of my personal favorites, actually, is early 1800s California, but only if I can be male, Catholic, wealthy, and ethnic Spanish. Or, you know, a Hispanicized Scot would be okay too.

202 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:43:59pm

re: #196 MandyManners

Hey. Clinton has a fine figure for a woman her age.

Yes, but I still have no desire to hike the Appalachian Trail with her, really nice combat boots or not...

203 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:44:13pm

re: #199 Silvergirl
Sounds a little Cruella-de Villa-esque.

204 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:44:21pm

re: #196 MandyManners

Hey. Clinton has a fine figure for a woman her age.

Wonder what the responses would have been had I said that?

OK, there's really no suspense. Heh.

205 jayzee  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:44:40pm

re: #42 lawhawk

He's from the Yasir Arafat school of governance, which is to say - it's all about his personal survival. Do only so much to stay in power - pay lip service to diplomacy and a "peace process", let the terrorists have their occasional attacks, and continue limping along. Hamas lets 'em engage in a triangle offense against Israel - so everyone gets something out of this dysfunctional relationship.

Am I the only one that thinks of this when I hear/read ol' Yasir's name?

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:45:17pm

re: #196 MandyManners

Hey. Clinton has a fine figure for a woman her age.

And great pansuits. Although, I have to say, I hanker after Nancy Pelosi's wardrobe, except I'd have to get it several sizes larger.

207 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:45:41pm

re: #205 jayzee
I think you may be.//

208 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:45:47pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

I always insisted that gender changes be available--one of my personal favorites, actually, is early 1800s California, but only if I can be male, Catholic, wealthy, and ethnic Spanish. Or, you know, a Hispanicized Scot would be okay too.

Now that's cool.

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:46:14pm

re: #198 iceweasel

That's the other reason I put the slash tag there-- because there are so many monsters.
I don't know that, I'll check it out.

Again, apologies for anyone I offended there, and I know it's an awful thing to say, but my other serious point is that Hitler shows up in all college philosophy discussions eventually. "well, what if HITLER--" etc. Or, the version Jonah Goldberg has recently parlayed into a book, "X is just like HITLER"-- kinda the pre-internet version of godwin's law.

For Americans/Western Europeans, our most accessible and personal monster. Makes sense.

210 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:47:15pm

re: #202 The Shadow Do

Yes, but I still have no desire to hike the Appalachian Trail with her, really nice combat boots or not...

So that's the new phrase.

211 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:47:25pm

re: #204 rwmofo

Wonder what the responses would have been had I said that?

OK, there's really no suspense. Heh.

I would've agreed.

212 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:47:56pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

And great pansuits. Although, I have to say, I hanker after Nancy Pelosi's wardrobe, except I'd have to get it several sizes larger.

I want Condi's boots.

213 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:48:05pm

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

If we think a single 10kt-50 kt detonation the nation of Israel would survive, the radius looks like a handful of miles.

These are terrible weapons. Our only solace is 2 points. So far real forbearance on nukes, and Hiroshima is a thriving location today.
I consider non proliferation to be a literally life or death proposition. In a hundred years the science and engineering will be quite commonplace.

One element of the famous Drake equation-Do you survive your technology?

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:48:09pm

re: #205 jayzee

Am I the only one that thinks of this when I hear/read ol' Yasir's name?

No. My mother sings that when he comes up.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:48:49pm

re: #208 iceweasel

Now that's cool.

Those guys used to rope grizzly bears!

216 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:49:07pm

re: #163 iceweasel

And yes, I realise this is a terrible thing to say, but seriously, if one could time travel it feels like a moral imperative to kill Hitler.

The thing is, say you succeeded in killing Hitler. You couldn't prevent someone else with a similar mindset from then taking Hitler's place.

You'd have to go around killing everyone who might turn out to be just like Hitler.

217 jayzee  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:49:39pm

re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist

No. My mother sings that when he comes up.

That pleases me. I felt so alone. How've you been?

218 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:49:58pm

What would happen if, instead of killing Hitler as a youth, you got him to convert to Judaism?

219 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:50:00pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

And great pansuits. Although, I have to say, I hanker after Nancy Pelosi's wardrobe, except I'd have to get it several sizes larger.

I'm about as far away ideologically from Nancy Pelosi as Paris Hilton is from getting her MSEE. However, she's 69 and is definitely way hotter than average. Good for her. See. I can be nice to lefties. Note that I didn't say "for her age." Heh.

220 Silvergirl  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:50:07pm

re: #200 Aceofwhat?

Who could really stand in front of Hitler's crib and not seriously contemplate the options? If you have to apologize, then so do i...

Then we have the nature nurture thing. Would you put a pillow over baby Adolph or take him out of that crib and raise him right? Would he turn out to be a decent human or even a great leader or still a monster to be reviled through the ages? What a gamble!

221 avanti  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:50:50pm

A little irony about Fox News.

222 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:50:55pm

re: #200 Aceofwhat?

Who could really stand in front of Hitler's crib and not seriously contemplate the options? If you have to apologize, then so do i...

It's kind of an awful moral ideology to think that as a baby he was condemned to be who he became. Maybe just making him live in another country and without access to people with influence, would have been enough? We don't know.

That's one other reason for the slash tag there-- it's the cheap answer often given to that question.
If we're talking about teleporting in when he's an adult or something, then yeah, to me it feels like a moral imperative. Which is fine if people want to freak out on me: "Yes, iceweasel would have assassinated the adult Hitler, if she could."
Not apoloigising for that sentiment.

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:51:00pm

re: #216 Alouette

The thing is, say you succeeded in killing Hitler. You couldn't prevent someone else with a similar mindset from then taking Hitler's place.

You'd have to go around killing everyone who might turn out to be just like Hitler.

I guess that's the question. Is Hitler's craziness unique to Hitler, or is there a Hitler-shaped hole in history at that point that someone else might have stepped into.

I think WWII was possibly impossible to turn aside at that point, but was the Shoah?

224 rwmofo  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:51:22pm

re: #212 MandyManners

I want Condi's boots.

Schwing!

225 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:51:23pm

re: #220 Silvergirl

Then we have the nature nurture thing. Would you put a pillow over baby Adolph or take him out of that crib and raise him right? Would he turn out to be a decent human or even a great leader or still a monster to be reviled through the ages? What a gamble!

no question. or, as the previous poster said, someone else essentially fills the void and you prevented very little? tough stuff...

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:51:27pm

re: #217 jayzee

That pleases me. I felt so alone. How've you been?

Pretty good. Going to see my parents this afternoon, for the first time in a few weeks.

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:51:55pm

re: #218 Alouette

What would happen if, instead of killing Hitler as a youth, you got him to convert to Judaism?

Well, he'd be a little out of place--the trend was very much the other way...

228 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:52:01pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't know.... sometimes I think she's on the payroll at St. John Knits....

229 jayzee  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:52:35pm

re: #224 rwmofo

Schwing!

I want Bill Clinton's watch.

230 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:52:36pm

re: #222 iceweasel

Hey, i chickened out and said i'd go see dinosaurs, so you're preaching to the choir!

231 Silvergirl  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:52:40pm

re: #212 MandyManners

I want Condi's boots.

I want just a modicum of her musical ability.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:53:33pm

re: #222 iceweasel

It's kind of an awful moral ideology to think that as a baby he was condemned to be who he became. Maybe just making him live in another country and without access to people with influence, would have been enough? We don't know.

That's one other reason for the slash tag there-- it's the cheap answer often given to that question.
If we're talking about teleporting in when he's an adult or something, then yeah, to me it feels like a moral imperative. Which is fine if people want to freak out on me: "Yes, iceweasel would have assassinated the adult Hitler, if she could."
Not apoloigising for that sentiment.

No need to apologize. We don't have a lot of ideological pacifists around here, and the ones we may have don't tend to be freakout types.

233 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:53:41pm

re: #216 Alouette

The thing is, say you succeeded in killing Hitler. You couldn't prevent someone else with a similar mindset from then taking Hitler's place.

You'd have to go around killing everyone who might turn out to be just like Hitler.

I think there's something to that. Hitler was evil, but he also needed that whole confluence of the place, the time, the conditions, the other people. If not him, maybe someone else-- and maybe someone even worse?

i definitely didn't mean to offend there, apologies if I did.

234 tradewind  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:55:26pm

re: #221 avanti
Irony may be dead, but Fox News was just voted 'most trusted name in television news ' , with Glenn Beck (ZOMG) the nation's second most popular personality, behind Oprah (Harris poll).
I guess Armageddon is on track.///

235 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:55:51pm

re: #231 Silvergirl

I want just a modicum of her musical ability.

And I want her to be NFL Comissioner...in boots!

236 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:56:00pm

re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess that's the question. Is Hitler's craziness unique to Hitler, or is there a Hitler-shaped hole in history at that point that someone else might have stepped into.

I think WWII was possibly impossible to turn aside at that point, but was the Shoah?

That's my issue, and my reason, and I still don't have an answer to it. It's something I think about a lot. Well, so do historians and so on, but yeah.

237 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:57:02pm

bbiab. miss me.

238 Silvergirl  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:58:16pm

re: #237 Aceofwhat?

bbiab. miss me.

Okay. If we must.

239 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:58:35pm

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #198 iceweasel

It's reasonable for that to happen.

It is very hard to find, in recent Western History a monster of such magnitude or a philosophy so obviously evil.

A down side of it is that by focusing over much on it (and I have to tread very lightly here, because I surely do not want to hint that people aught not study this. NOT my point) is that college courses and history courses in general fail to teach about the other great atrocities of history.

So let me clear about where I am coming from.

Obviously the horrors of the second world war are something personal for me being a Jew. It's something that hangs over every Jewish kid's life and psyche for some time when growing up. The reality that people really would kill your parents - and hate them and you that much is very difficult for a young person to come to terms with.

But as I got older, I wanted to take at least something positive from it - to at least turn in and learn something.

So one of the first things I learned was that those people murdered did not die to become cheap points in a debate. I hate it when people bring up Hitler out of context. It cheapens the history.

A more important thought though was what one could make of it to be a better person.

I despise racism because I know what it did to my people. This causes me to always sympathize with minorities who are abused. Further, it allowed me to look at world at world history from the view of other's suffering.

And that brings me back. I understand Native Americans. I mean I understand their pain. I understand why the Chinese have the issues they do with the Japanese. One look at Nanking or Harmin will do that. This is not to detract from anyone's history. This is not a club of special privilege. Rather it ought to be a club we wish we did not have membership in.

However, it is a way to understand others who have suffered greatly.

This is also one of the reasons why I get as emotional about the consequences of AGW that I do. The world that is coming down the pike will make the horrors of the second world war look trivial in comparison. That is just the reality.

This is a very long way of me saying that those deaths of course meant something. Just not something selfish.

240 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:01:26pm

re: #239 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks ludwig. Excellent comment.

241 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:01:49pm

re: #240 iceweasel

Thanks ludwig. Excellent comment.

Thank you Ice.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:03:25pm

re: #239 LudwigVanQuixote


I despise racism because I know what it did to my people. This causes me to always sympathize with minorities who are abused. Further, it allowed me to look at world at world history from the view of other's suffering.

And that brings me back. I understand Native Americans. I mean I understand their pain. I understand why the Chinese have the issues they do with the Japanese. One look at Nanking or Harmin will do that. This is not to detract from anyone's history. This is not a club of special privilege. Rather it ought to be a club we wish we did not have membership in.

However, it is a way to understand others who have suffered greatly.

This is also one of the reasons why I get as emotional about the consequences of AGW that I do. The world that is coming down the pike will make the horrors of the second world war look trivial in comparison. That is just the reality.

This is a very long way of me saying that those deaths of course meant something. Just not something selfish.

Just remembering--I recall seeing a group of ninth-grade students, Chinese- and Japanese-American, present what they'd learned at a conference about the Rape of Nanking. In the process, an Armenian child in the class got very upset, feeling that their history was being given an importance hers wasn't.

A friend tried to reach out to her, and she said, "You just don't understand!" And the other little girl said "Nairi, I don't understand? I'm black. " And she went ahead and hugged her friend, and told her she had her back.

Too often, historical suffering serves to divide us. It should bring us together, to comfort one another and to work for the future.

243 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:05:51pm

My buttons disappear from the top right screen, when I use the "new comments" button. Anyone else having this issue?
Hi everybody!
*waves*

244 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:06:32pm

re: #236 iceweasel

We were getting into this question the other day, talking about the banality of evil, where it comes from.

The Holocaust came about, in my opinion, through a series of small rational decisions--which call into question Western Rationality.

For instance, the Nazis first tried to machine gun a great many Jews, women, children, put them in a mass grave, and move on to the next town. Nazi problem: commanding officers are killing themselves at night afterward. Solution: create depersonalized style of killing.

Nazi problem: using bullets on Jews may be a waste of resources needed to fight other professional armies on two fronts. Nazi Solution: find ways of killing more Jews using fewer resources. Ultimate Nazi Solution: create killing factories that minimized soldiers' exposure to corpses. Apply science and mass production techniques to killing.

So.....let's just say the causes of the Holocaust are very deep. And because of this depth, I don't believe it was preventable.

245 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:07:28pm

re: #242 SanFranciscoZionist

Just remembering--I recall seeing a group of ninth-grade students, Chinese- and Japanese-American, present what they'd learned at a conference about the Rape of Nanking. In the process, an Armenian child in the class got very upset, feeling that their history was being given an importance hers wasn't.

A friend tried to reach out to her, and she said, "You just don't understand!" And the other little girl said "Nairi, I don't understand? I'm black. " And she went ahead and hugged her friend, and told her she had her back.

Too often, historical suffering serves to divide us. It should bring us together, to comfort one another and to work for the future.

That is very well said.

There are few things more tragic than watching students pull an "I suffered more than you contest." When those things start up in classes I have taught, I usually shut them down by reminding the kids involved that their ancestors did not suffer so that they (the kids) as comfortable middle class Americans could use them selfishly as cheap points in a debate for their own gain. They get angry at me usually and then I point out I am Jewish.

The key to the lesson though is when after that mollifies them, I point out that what I said would still be true even if I were a German.

246 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:11:28pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you Ice.

Not at all. Thank you!

When i first mentioned it I wanted to say something about the ways in which, in uni discussions or casual discussions -- all roads immediately lead to Hitler. And this:

So one of the first things I learned was that those people murdered did not die to become cheap points in a debate. I hate it when people bring up Hitler out of context. It cheapens the history

Yes. I wasn't intending to do that but make a point about that--
I think you and I talked about this once before. Anyway, again apologies to any I inadvertantly offended or who thought I was doing that.

But I'd still kill him and that's my kneejerk reaction when time travel comes up.

247 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:13:05pm

re: #246 iceweasel

Yes. I wasn't intending to do that but make a point about that--
I think you and I talked about this once before. Anyway, again apologies to any I inadvertantly offended or who thought I was doing that.

But I'd still kill him and that's my kneejerk reaction when time travel comes up.

You didn't offend me at all.

Unfortunately with the time travel... if you kill him, you would never then have had a reson to go back in time to kill him in the first place. ;)

248 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:13:59pm

re: #239 LudwigVanQuixote

I think the thought glitch that leads to all of these tragedies is the first step--depersonalization.

The tattooed numbers in each persons arm--there it is in a nutshell. But we have a tendency to describe and treat people as numbers all throughout the Western world.

Scientifically, the word 'essence' has little meaning. And if it does have meaning, what is the significance?

So, can we conceive of another rationality, just as scientific, that does not reduce people to variable in an equation, or just a mass of tissue.

249 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:15:39pm

re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess that's the question. Is Hitler's craziness unique to Hitler, or is there a Hitler-shaped hole in history at that point that someone else might have stepped into.

I think WWII was possibly impossible to turn aside at that point, but was the Shoah?

I don't believe in Tolsty's integral history.

WW2 may have been inevitable, but it took Hitler to make the Nazi party what it was. As to dangerously charismatic evil sociopaths gaining power, alas, that is not unique at all.

250 solomonpanting  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:15:49pm

re: #239 LudwigVanQuixote

The world that is coming down the pike will make the horrors of the second world war look trivial in comparison.

So it is written.....

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:16:20pm

re: #243 Floral Giraffe

My buttons disappear from the top right screen, when I use the "new comments" button. Anyone else having this issue?
Hi everybody!
*waves*

Mandy is.

252 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:16:39pm

re: #244 Bob Levin

IIRC we were talking about Arendt and you were bothered by the lack of attention to ordinary perpetrators and collaborators. I don't know if you saw it but I recommended a book called ordinary men, in which the last chapter tries (inadequately) to deal with that question.
That's really a philosophical or theological question though, a question about evil and moral luck (or the lack thereof).

I'd agree the roots of the Shoah were deep. Daniel Goldhagen has written a (somewhat reviled) book on this-- there is also a book by Ron Rosenbaum called Explaining Hitler which is an analysis of all the approaches to 'explaining' Hitler.

253 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:17:01pm

re: #248 Bob Levin

I think the thought glitch that leads to all of these tragedies is the first step--depersonalization.

The tattooed numbers in each persons arm--there it is in a nutshell. But we have a tendency to describe and treat people as numbers all throughout the Western world.

Scientifically, the word 'essence' has little meaning. And if it does have meaning, what is the significance?

So, can we conceive of another rationality, just as scientific, that does not reduce people to variable in an equation, or just a mass of tissue.

Very well said.

ONe of the things that I like about religion is the notion that you, just because you are you, and for no other reason, have a soul and worthiness that is special to the universe.

254 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:17:43pm

re: #247 LudwigVanQuixote

You didn't offend me at all.

Unfortunately with the time travel... if you kill him, you would never then have had a reson to go back in time to kill him in the first place. ;)

We'll have to save our talk about the paradoxes of time travel for later, Ludwig-baby! :-)

255 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:18:17pm

re: #247 LudwigVanQuixote

You didn't offend me at all.

Unfortunately with the time travel... if you kill him, you would never then have had a reson to go back in time to kill him in the first place. ;)

i wondered how long it would take for one of us to get to the space-time continuum paradox//

256 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:19:22pm

re: #253 LudwigVanQuixote

And that's the greatest challenge faced by atheism, I think; the construction of meaning.

Have I recommended Don Cupitt to you yet? He's an interesting guy who perhaps can actually bridge the divide, or find common ground.

He believes in a God as real as love, as he puts it.

257 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:19:28pm

re: #250 solomonpanting

The world that is coming down the pike will make the horrors of the second world war look trivial in comparison.

So it is written...

Interesting point. I wasn't going there. Let's just say that I would like my divine "science proves prophecy" moment to not involve wars of Gog and Magog and the sorts of biblical scale horrors that the science is pointing us towards.

As Jew, I also believe that God gives us warnings so that we can turn back. The science here is a very, very clear warning.

258 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:22:43pm

re: #256 Obdicut

And that's the greatest challenge faced by atheism, I think; the construction of meaning.

Have I recommended Don Cupitt to you yet? He's an interesting guy who perhaps can actually bridge the divide, or find common ground.

He believes in a God as real as love, as he puts it.

Have i already asked you if you've read the Abolition of Man? I'm sorry if i have...

259 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:22:54pm

re: #254 iceweasel

We'll have to save our talk about the paradoxes of time travel for later, Ludwig-baby! :-)

That is why I put the wink :) Short form is that if time travel is possible then there can be no free will.

Why?

Causality means you can't change history, because you didn't and energy conservation means you can't create a new universe for each possible different event. Thus if you go back in time, you can not do anything that would change history. Since butterfly effects are real things, that means, you are completely constrained to obey history.

However, in your time as well, someone else from your future could also not change their history. That means the present is not special and there is no free will there either.

260 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:23:01pm

re: #252 iceweasel

I read that and I did reply to it. There are quite a few books about this very topic. The ones that you cite are more recent I suspect--but I'm sure that if you check the bibliographies, you'll find the books I talked about.

The whole idea of talking about the Holocaust is to prevent another one, no matter where it is, no matter who are the actors. When we talk about it in terms of hate, and specifically the Jews, it just shows how hard it is to look at this issue, and just how difficult the problem really is.

261 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:24:20pm

re: #251 SanFranciscoZionist

Testing to see if it happens in IE also...
Site is loading slowly for me too.
Last night I was blaming the big thread!

262 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:24:42pm

re: #258 Aceofwhat?

Yes, but long, long ago. I read most of Lewis during my religious period. I don't remember that one standing out in particular.

263 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:26:19pm

re: #253 LudwigVanQuixote

Absolutely--and one of the things I like about modern science, is how close they are getting to discovering that part of who we are.

The truth is, although there is a cultural fight between science and religion, it doesn't have to be there--in other words, there isn't any inherent and irreconcilable structural differences between the two.

264 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:26:22pm

re: #256 Obdicut

And that's the greatest challenge faced by atheism, I think; the construction of meaning.

Have I recommended Don Cupitt to you yet? He's an interesting guy who perhaps can actually bridge the divide, or find common ground.

He believes in a God as real as love, as he puts it.

Fabulous... I have to say though that I do not have the brain cycles ready for a Kantian discussion of deontological truths.

265 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:27:39pm

re: #263 Bob Levin

Absolutely--and one of the things I like about modern science, is how close they are getting to discovering that part of who we are.

The truth is, although there is a cultural fight between science and religion, it doesn't have to be there--in other words, there isn't any inherent and irreconcilable structural differences between the two.

Or perhaps because there are, you can keep them separate and non-interfering. Science is how and religion is why. The problem is when scientis say there can be no why, or when religious people think that scripture replaces science for determining how.

266 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:33:07pm

re: #262 Obdicut

Yes, but long, long ago. I read most of Lewis during my religious period. I don't remember that one standing out in particular.

Also deals with the construction of meaning. I wonder how some of his more abstract work would strike you in your current phase of life...although i admit that part of why i enjoy reading him is that he's just so good with the english language.

267 The Left  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:36:17pm

re: #259 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait, I have to go back and say something here---
we talked about the ways in which the Shoah or Hitler are brought up to trivialise discussion. But there is also a profound sense -- the one I'm also gesturing at-- in which Hitler stops discussion. Not in a trite Godwin's Law way, but because all roads of inquiry end at Hitler. Moral, epistemological, logical, ethical, theological-- they run out there. He (and more accurately the Shoah) have been, for 50 years, where explanation ends. Take any issue at all:
Abortion? yeah, but wouldn't you abort Hitler?
Death penalty? Yeah, but didn't Hitler deserve it?
Pacifism? Wouldn't you kill Hitler?
--and more. It's the cheap stopping point often, of cheap arguments and thinkers, but I would argue (and I believe I can make the case) that the Shoah, and Hitler, remain the central mystery of our time.

A profound mystery that we don't know the answer to, in part because it encompasses human existence and the human capacity for evil--- not merely Hitler's personal existence.
Talking about historical conditions, economic, Germany for centuries, whatever-- none of it answers that.
It doesn't even have anything to do with Hitler per se, the individual, this question-- it has to do with evil and the peculiar and particular form and quality of human evil we saw then.
In that sense, all roads of inquiry still end there, even now.

268 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:39:34pm

re: #265 LudwigVanQuixote

I understand what you are saying. To me, religion is very complex--but I know of many many people who think it is simple, who think they can open a book and get answers. To do religion well, you open the book and get questions.

And the overriding question in both institutions, for me, is what is this universe made of, how does it work?

Historically, this is new. Your point is valid if we live in Newton's Universe. But we don't live in Newton's Universe anymore. I think we're all back at square two at least. I mean, how different are Roger Penrose talking about Panpsychism and the rabbinic commentary on the creation of the alphabet?

How different is Bell's Theorem and the laws of Lashon Hara? They're both describing the same phenomena.

I understand that I am very much a minority opinion on the relationship between religion and science.

269 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:41:19pm

re: #267 iceweasel

Wait, I have to go back and say something here---
we talked about the ways in which the Shoah or Hitler are brought up to trivialise discussion. But there is also a profound sense -- the one I'm also gesturing at-- in which Hitler stops discussion. Not in a trite Godwin's Law way, but because all roads of inquiry end at Hitler. Moral, epistemological, logical, ethical, theological-- they run out there. He (and more accurately the Shoah) have been, for 50 years, where explanation ends. Take any issue at all:
Abortion? yeah, but wouldn't you abort Hitler?
Death penalty? Yeah, but didn't Hitler deserve it?
Pacifism? Wouldn't you kill Hitler?
--and more. It's the cheap stopping point often, of cheap arguments and thinkers, but I would argue (and I believe I can make the case) that the Shoah, and Hitler, remain the central mystery of our time.

A profound mystery that we don't know the answer to, in part because it encompasses human existence and the human capacity for evil--- not merely Hitler's personal existence.
Talking about historical conditions, economic, Germany for centuries, whatever-- none of it answers that.
It doesn't even have anything to do with Hitler per se, the individual, this question-- it has to do with evil and the peculiar and particular form and quality of human evil we saw then.
In that sense, all roads of inquiry still end there, even now.

That is true. That is because Hitler is the one person in recent memory who epitomizes evil. Any discussion of abstract good and evil invites invoking him because he is a much more tangible example than Satan.

270 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:46:30pm

re: #268 Bob Levin

I understand what you are saying. To me, religion is very complex--but I know of many many people who think it is simple, who think they can open a book and get answers. To do religion well, you open the book and get questions.

And the overriding question in both institutions, for me, is what is this universe made of, how does it work?

Historically, this is new. Your point is valid if we live in Newton's Universe. But we don't live in Newton's Universe anymore. I think we're all back at square two at least. I mean, how different are Roger Penrose talking about Panpsychism and the rabbinic commentary on the creation of the alphabet?

How different is Bell's Theorem and the laws of Lashon Hara? They're both describing the same phenomena.

I understand that I am very much a minority opinion on the relationship between religion and science.

Wow, there is an awful lot to discuss there.

I absolutely agree that real soul searching of any kind usually leads to more questions than it does answers, and certainly anyone who has cracked a Gemara knows that an entire tradition can be based on asking those questions.

However, whatever the ultimate shape of reality is, it has one. There is some way that the universe works. That is still a how question and not a why.

At least in Judaism, we say that God hides his face. Yes we believe he is involved in all things, but not in an open way, or in a way that defies the laws of nature. There is a long discussion about probabilities and QM giving Him a way to do that without contradiction, however that is not the point.

Wishing that something were different does not make it so. I can not "will away" momentum or energy conservation.

As a result, we are still constrained ourselves by the mechanical nature of the universe.

I am not sure what the connection you see between Lashan Ha Ra and Bell's theorem is.

271 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:58:18pm

re: #270 LudwigVanQuixote

The discussion gets interesting very quickly, doesn't it? And there's no way to cover it here.

One of the principles that I learned about Torah study--if humans can figure it out, it won't be in the Torah--at least not explicitly. We could take about a day and talk about Energy Conservation and the Torah. Or we could take a day and talk about Nachmanides interpretation of Creation--which is identical to the Big Bang.

We could take a day on indirect cause and effect, and the speed that such and event could occur.

But we wouldn't end up on opposite sides. And that doesn't minimize at all the importance of scientific research--in fact, scientific research becomes even more important.

I can't speak for other religions, but Judaism doesn't ask why--just what are you going to do about it. The Universe works according to certain laws, so, what are you going to do about it, how are you going to swim in those waters? Why is unknowable.

In other words, if human consciousness is a force of nature--then what?

Again, minority opinion.

272 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 1:58:41pm

Sorry, but I've got to run. Later y'all.

273 kmg  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 2:09:56pm

@ #19

Israel has always defended herself, not just nowadays. No one has ever fought for her. Other countries may have sold her weapons, but Israeli soldiers were always the ones doing the fighting!

274 Petero1818  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 2:17:56pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

While I am no weapons expert, I think the question implies that Iran gives a shit about the Palestinians, and I strongly believe they really don't. The Iranian regime has in the past acknowledged that it would be acceptable for the entire nation of Iran to sacrifice itself in destroying Israel at the same time. Rafsanjani actually made such a comment on Al Quds day years ago. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves to end Jewish rule in Israel (a sacrifice I believe they would certainly need to make) , surely, Palestinians are also expendable ...sorry....potential martyrs/.

275 What, me worry?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 2:36:18pm

What does George Mitchell have to say about it?

276 Eretz  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 2:37:32pm

As Charles Johnson correctly points out, I document in detail how the new Fatah charter does not revoke the previous one--in fact it reaffirms that it still applies--and is not a step toward democracy. What's especially ironic is that the same day others are talking about how the new Hizballah charter is moderate when it clearly isn't. You can read my detailed analysis of each member of the Fatah Central Committee to see how it is dominated by hardliners. What's most interesting about the new Fatah charter has nothing to do with peace but how it shows the central committee--not "President" Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Palestinian Authority, or Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, is running things. Indeed, this explains why there isn't going to be peace. Visit please
,
and if you want to know about the Central Committee read the only detailed analysis anyone has ever done:
[Link: rubinreports.blogspot.com...]

277 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 2:59:32pm

re: #269 LudwigVanQuixote

That is true. That is because Hitler is the one person in recent memory who epitomizes evil. Any discussion of abstract good and evil invites invoking him because he is a much more tangible example than Satan.

Hi, taking a break from watching how our system becomes"evil". MSNBC on the "Witch Hunt", about the people convicted of fictitious child abuse in the 80's. Even though the system and justice prevailed, it took 12 to 20 years (for different people in the same case) to do so, and nobody who ruined their lives paid for it. Maybe we have a system as good as we can expect, but the best imaginable it is not.

What does this have to do with Hitler and Satan?

Aside from the fact that Satan is fictitious and Hitler is not, the prosecutors in the above case were probably not "evil", just doing their job and following orders. In other words sociopaths "Antisocial Personality Disorder is also known as psychopathy or sociopathy. Individuals with this disorder have little regard for the feeling and welfare of others.".

In my unscientific perspective, evil is reserved for those who gain direct pleasure from what they do to others (EG a hard-on in the masculine sense). Those are psychopaths. Sociopaths just couldn't care less.

Aside from being insane, I suggest Hitler was a sociopath; but I am prepared to be proven wrong. Discuss; if you wish.

278 What, me worry?  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 3:08:56pm

re: #274 Petero1818

While I am no weapons expert, I think the question implies that Iran gives a shit about the Palestinians, and I strongly believe they really don't. The Iranian regime has in the past acknowledged that it would be acceptable for the entire nation of Iran to sacrifice itself in destroying Israel at the same time. Rafsanjani actually made such a comment on Al Quds day years ago. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves to end Jewish rule in Israel (a sacrifice I believe they would certainly need to make) , surely, Palestinians are also expendable ...sorry...potential martyrs/.

The ancestors of the Arabs living in the disputed territories who occupied Palestine prior to 1947 (and mind you, the Jews always lived there as well) were cast out by their mother countries, Egypt and Syria primarily, and also Jordan or Transjordan as it was. They were mostly troublemakers to begin with. Arafat (Egyptian himself) organized them with rage against the Jews that was brewing since the first world war and beyond.

We know the Iranians or the Arabs don't give a shit, because out of 21 Arab countries no one has given them any meaningful help to build an infrastructure, a prosperous economy and educated society. The UN's "refugee funds" ended up finding their way into Arafat's personal bank account.

I don't know what, if anything, the Arab world would do in such a horrific scenario. They didn't come to the defense of the Kurds in Iraq, remember. Would they go after the Iranians? More than likely, the Iranians would device a way to blame it on us anyway! Jordan may be another story, but I don't know.

279 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 3:10:13pm

re: #266 Aceofwhat?

In general, Lewis strikes me as someone heroically trying to avoid rational conclusions about the nature of faith.

280 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 3:10:58pm

re: #248 Bob Levin


Scientifically, the word 'essence' has little meaning. And if it does have meaning, what is the significance?

It has plenty of meaning if you allow yourself to be the one who assigns meaning, rather than expecting someone/something else to do so for you.

281 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 7:02:55pm

re: #280 Naso Tang

I meant that the definition doesn't exist in an institutional sense in the same way that velocity, energy, acceleration exist.

Now, if you are the scientist that 'discovers' that all things have an essence, great. I just saw a PBS special called 'The Human Spark', which was scientists looking for this spark somewhere in the brain.

Good luck on that project. I'm just saying that this question is very old, has been dealt with pretty well by the Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, and other groups I'm not that familiar with. And for scientists to find this, and I hope they do, they're going to have to map out consciousness with some more space than simply the three dimensions of the brain.

282 Sacred Plants  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:03:23am

Apparently it does not mention any "right of return" either, if there can be such a thing without a precisely named destination.

283 Buck  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:00:34am

re: #234 tradewind

Irony may be dead, but Fox News was just voted 'most trusted name in television news ' , with Glenn Beck (ZOMG) the nation's second most popular personality, behind Oprah (Harris poll).
I guess Armageddon is on track.///

It just means everyone else is worse...

284 Solomon2  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:38:34am

As Jeffrey Goldberg revealed in his interviews with PA officials in his book Prisoners, the Second Intifada started because Arafat took the position that there was no evidence Jews ever held Jerusalem as a holy city, so the Palestinians were entitled to 100% of everything Arafat demanded. And after that would there be peace, Goldberg asked? Arafat's crony laughed, saying, "And then we'll go on to the next step!"


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Ranked-Choice Voting Has Challenged the Status Quo. Its Popularity Will Be Tested in November. JUNEAU — Alaska’s new election system — with open primaries and ranked voting — has been a model for those in other states who are frustrated by political polarization and a sense that voters lack real choice at the ...
Cheechako
6 days ago
Views: 180 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0