Memorial Day Open Thread
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Here’s an open thread for Memorial Day, with a note of remembrance and gratitude for all the men and women of the military who have made the ultimate sacrifice to defend the United States.
564 comments
3 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, May 31, 2010 1:42:13pm |
| 4 |
windsword Mon, May 31, 2010 1:43:34pm |
Possibly the simplest, greatest song I can think of.
| 6 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, May 31, 2010 1:48:27pm |
A sobering thought:
Only 10% of World War 2 veterans are still alive.
This means though that more than 40,000 of our dead would still be alive today if they had not lost their lives in the war. The loss is beyond calculation, the children not born, the books not written, the discoveries not made.
It is certain though that the world of today would be far, far worse if not for that sacrifice.
| 8 |
american_peanuts Mon, May 31, 2010 1:50:24pm |
As a former Israeli soldier who's been to battle and saw war, I thank our soldiers who sacrifice their time and life to serve our great country and help police the world.
I would like to honor and cherish the memory of our fallen friends.
As the formal Jewish eulogy goes: May their souls be forever tangled with our living souls. ת.נ.צ.ב.ה
| 9 |
Political Atheist Mon, May 31, 2010 1:50:39pm |
re: #6 Shiplord Kirel
Every young life lost is a road untaken, unknowable. Tragic. Yet sometimes they must. Was not long ago the last WW1 vet went, as I recall.
| 10 |
Political Atheist Mon, May 31, 2010 1:52:05pm |
re: #8 american_peanuts
Very well said, and thank you.
| 11 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 1:55:12pm |
In Flanders Fields
by John McCrae, May 1915
Poppies (©greatwar.co.uk)
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
Inspiration for the poem — In Flanders Fields
During the Second Battle of Ypres a Canadian artillery officer, Lieutenant Alexis Helmer, was killed on 2 May, 1915 by an exploding shell. He was a friend of the Canadian military doctor Major John McCrae.
John was asked to conduct the burial service owing to the chaplain being called away on duty elsewhere. It is believed that later that evening John began the draft for his famous poem 'In Flanders Fields'.
| 13 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 1:57:21pm |
| 14 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 1:58:19pm |
re: #13 brookly red
on what? I am not a trusting person.
potato salad must be made with mayo...everybody will agree to that
| 15 |
Obdicut Mon, May 31, 2010 1:58:50pm |
Thanks, Granpda, for fighting in the South Pacific. Thank you even though it caused you to catch malaria and suffered from that for the rest of your life. You gave your all and your health, and you sailed away from your fiancée to do it.
Thanks for coming back, and for marrying her immediately, and for staying alive long enough to meet you. I miss you. I put flowers on your grave today. The view of the harbor was beautiful, and you can see the spot where I'll be getting married in a month.
I still remember your final words to me, and I'm glad I was there at your deathbed as a child. I wasn't scared to watch you die, but it did make me sad. Thank you for wishing me good luck with your final breath. I feel like I've had amazing luck in this life. And a lot of that was having you and Grandma.
| 16 |
aurelius Mon, May 31, 2010 1:58:54pm |
| 17 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 1:59:55pm |
re: #16 aurelius
honoring the US war dead...?
here's hoping
OK. All good.
As long as there is no string attached...
| 18 |
North95 Mon, May 31, 2010 1:59:55pm |
My mother and father both served during WWII.
My mother was a WAC at Camp Pickett Virginia.
My father worked on radios in planes In England (and I suppose over Europe)
They've both passed.
| 21 |
aurelius Mon, May 31, 2010 2:01:40pm |
re: #15 Obdicut
respect, love, honor. You gave him all he fought for.
| 22 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 2:02:19pm |
| 23 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 2:02:42pm |
my dad fought in the pacific with the Marines...meanwhile my mom (who didn't see him again for 3 1/2 years) built Liberators in Ypsilanti MI...a real Rosie the Riveter
| 24 |
american_peanuts Mon, May 31, 2010 2:03:13pm |
This day makes me very emotional. Something about young lives sacrificed and fallen friends.
I know this song might come off a bit leftist (which is not a bad thing) but please read it as a hope for safe return and peaceful life to all our brothers and sisters in uniform.
Stay safe !
Forever Young
May God bless and keep you always
May your wishes all come true
May you always do for others
And let others do for you
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young.
May you grow up to be righteous
May you grow up to be true
May you always know the truth
And see the lights surrounding you
May you always be courageous
Stand upright and be strong
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young.
May your hands always be busy
May your feet always be swift
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
May your heart always be joyful
And may your song always be sung
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young.
| 25 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 2:04:37pm |
PBS had a documentary airing yesterday detailing the American military grave sites around the world. When we think of our soldiers buried abroad we think of Normandy of course but there are many more dotted about Europe, N Africa, the Philippines and beyond - and not one the site of a land that we conquered and held. This is an amazing country made possible by the thousands at rest there and at home. Remember them we must.
| 26 |
Cathypop Mon, May 31, 2010 2:06:24pm |
re: #15 Obdicut
Same place my Dad caught malaria.
Thanks to all who have served and a special thanks to the Marines.
Cause my Dad was a marine till the day he died.
Miss you Dad.
| 27 |
Obdicut Mon, May 31, 2010 2:06:51pm |
One of my grandfather's favorite poems:
An Irish Airman Foresees His Death-- W.B.Yeats.
I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.
The average life expectancy of a WWI fighter pilot was 17.5 hours in the cockpit. The things we ask our soldiers to do.
| 28 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 2:08:33pm |
re: #18 North95
My mother and father both served during WWII.
My mother was a WAC at Camp Pickett Virginia.
My father worked on radios in planes In England (and I suppose over Europe)
They've both passed.
So many stories and a heritage that I hope future generations study well. My folks are gone too. My mom was at Pearl Harbor on 12-7-41, my dad, a waist gunner on a flying fort, was being bombed at Clark Field Philippines the same time. Today makes me think of those who never came back from this and other wars - those who never made a family and had no future.
| 29 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, May 31, 2010 2:11:28pm |
re: #8 american_peanuts
The Jewish people always had a way with a prayer.
| 31 |
Crimsonfisted Mon, May 31, 2010 2:12:24pm |
Best Memorial Day ever. The keynote speaker at our event was a WW II vet who served with PATTON and EISENHOWER. Got a picture of my Scout boys with him!
A wonderful service was had by all.
| 32 |
Cathypop Mon, May 31, 2010 2:12:32pm |
From a letter my Dad wrote to my Mom.
On a small island called Iwo Jima fighting Japs. Don't worry. Everything will be oaky. Love reading his letters to my Mom.
| 33 |
Cathypop Mon, May 31, 2010 2:13:40pm |
re: #31 Crimsonfisted
Best Memorial Day ever. The keynote speaker at our event was a WW II vet who served with PATTON and EISENHOWER. Got a picture of my Scout boys with him!
A wonderful service was had by all.
All I can say is "WOW"
| 34 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, May 31, 2010 2:14:32pm |
I am one of 8 kids... 6 (enlisted) served...
Right now? I have a Niece serving in Afganistan. (Tamie? You rock!)
10 uncles who served (8 in WWII)...
No casualties out of the whole bunch. Thank goodness.
But, I hurt for those who've lost loved ones.
| 35 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 2:16:57pm |
re: #32 Cathypop
From a letter my Dad wrote to my Mom.
On a small island called Iwo Jima fighting Japs. Don't worry. Everything will be oaky. Love reading his letters to my Mom.
Wonderful stuff. Those should go to an archive one day.
| 37 |
american_peanuts Mon, May 31, 2010 2:18:01pm |
re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
If you are a man of faith, I join your pray for your family.
If you are not, my heart and wished goes to their well being.
In Hebrew we say כל הכבוד - KOL HAKAVOD "All the respect" which actually means "A lot of respect" to you and your family.
Stay safe.
| 38 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 2:20:33pm |
re: #37 american_peanuts
If you are a man of faith, I join your pray for your family.
If you are not, my heart and wished goes to their well being.
In Hebrew we say כל הכבוד - KOL HAKAVOD "All the respect" which actually means "A lot of respect" to you and your family.Stay safe.
אלוהים יברך אותך ואת המשפחה שלך
| 39 |
researchok Mon, May 31, 2010 2:26:27pm |
| 40 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:26:30pm |
| 41 |
Crimsonfisted Mon, May 31, 2010 2:27:42pm |
Posted on the downstairs thread, but more info on the flotilla here.
Video of IDF being stabbed and the IDF's weapon was a paint gun. And more information at the site.
Company here now. BBL!
| 42 |
Cathypop Mon, May 31, 2010 2:28:26pm |
Outta Here!
The rib-eyes need to be gently rubbed with olive oil and the Caesar salad prepped.
Until next weekend
| 43 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:28:58pm |
re: #37 american_peanuts
If you are a man of faith, I join your pray for your family.
If you are not, my heart and wished goes to their well being.
In Hebrew we say כל הכבוד - KOL HAKAVOD "All the respect" which actually means "A lot of respect" to you and your family.Stay safe.
I should welcome you here. I very much appreciate your comments.
| 44 |
american_peanuts Mon, May 31, 2010 2:30:38pm |
| 45 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 2:33:03pm |
| 46 |
prairiefire Mon, May 31, 2010 2:33:19pm |
re: #25 The Shadow Do
PBS had a documentary airing yesterday detailing the American military grave sites around the world. When we think of our soldiers buried abroad we think of Normandy of course but there are many more dotted about Europe, N Africa, the Philippines and beyond - and not one the site of a land that we conquered and held. This is an amazing country made possible by the thousands at rest there and at home. Remember them we must.
When I saw Colin Powell speak, one of the most moving parts was when he described how all America has asked of the nations we have helped is a place to bury our dead.
| 47 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 2:35:30pm |
| 48 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 2:36:20pm |
| 49 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 2:37:10pm |
re: #47 MandyManners
I'm surprised no one has claimed all those knives were for cleaning fish.
be patient, soon their identities & histories will be known...
and largely ignored.
| 50 |
wiffersnapper Mon, May 31, 2010 2:37:44pm |
So apparently just because it's called a "Veterans Memorial Park" doesn't not mean that there's a veterans memorial in the park. It was just a park. I was very disappointed that I made it the place to go to for my Memorial Day. Still, a very humbling experience since it was a torrential downpour in South Bend when I went.
| 51 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 2:38:14pm |
re: #47 MandyManners
I'm surprised no one has claimed all those knives were for cleaning fish.
The baseball bats were for a JV game on the Gaza Beach..
/
| 52 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 2:39:37pm |
re: #15 Obdicut
Thanks, Granpda, for fighting in the South Pacific. Thank you even though it caused you to catch malaria and suffered from that for the rest of your life. You gave your all and your health, and you sailed away from your fiancée to do it.
Thanks for coming back, and for marrying her immediately, and for staying alive long enough to meet you. I miss you. I put flowers on your grave today. The view of the harbor was beautiful, and you can see the spot where I'll be getting married in a month.
I still remember your final words to me, and I'm glad I was there at your deathbed as a child. I wasn't scared to watch you die, but it did make me sad. Thank you for wishing me good luck with your final breath. I feel like I've had amazing luck in this life. And a lot of that was having you and Grandma.
I'm sure your Grandpa was proud of you.
| 53 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 2:40:05pm |
re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote
Hoosier, the tribe really ought to adopt you.
Thank you Ludwig...Anytime the God of Israel wants to adopt me..Just put me on speed dial
| 54 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:40:58pm |
I don't often write about the Holocaust. The responsibility of writing something meaningful about something so vast and tragic always gives me pause. I am not even going to write about it now directly.
I am going to say that of my extended family, dozens of cousin and aunts and uncles that I never met were murdered before I was born.
However, the American branch of my family, of which I am fourth generation, was given a real chance in America. My great grand father came to this nation at the age of 11. He was all by himself. He had less than a dollar in his pocket after her had traveled mostly on foot from a tiny place, with mud streets and grey skies, in what was then Russia, to Bremen and then to America.
He was the oldest. He worked and prospered. He brought his brothers and parents over to this nation.
His son, went back to Europe, not as despised Jew, but as a liberator. My line was not murdered by those monsters. America quite literally is the reason I am alive. America made it possible for my line instead to hunt those monsters.
Every Memorial Day, I feel the duty to try to live a good life because I know how much was given me - by those who were better than me. Every Memorial Day, I love America a little more and I remember that I owe her everything.
| 55 |
american_peanuts Mon, May 31, 2010 2:41:01pm |
re: #45 brookly red
Not sure about mentioning beer, grill and salad seasoning on a day of mourning and remembrance. With what's going on in the States with "sale weekend" and people greeting "Happy Memorial Day", I feel a bit off ...
Our mourning is a bit more complete.
But that's me.
Thank You !
| 56 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 2:42:02pm |
I don't know why this bothers me, but it does.
[Link: www.google.com...]
Google, which honors any number of occasions with its front page art work chose to not honor our fallen soldiers. But seeing all of the wonderful sentiments expressed on LGF makes me very proud to be a part of this forum.
| 57 |
researchok Mon, May 31, 2010 2:42:32pm |
George Patton:
"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."
-- Speech at the Copley Plaza Hotel, Boston Massachusetts (7 June 1945), quoted in Patton : Ordeal and Triumph (1970) by Ladislas Farago
| 58 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:43:20pm |
re: #53 HoosierHoops
Thank you Ludwig...Anytime the God of Israel wants to adopt me..Just put me on speed dial
Well if you are interested, it's a simple procedure.... Tell me how you feel about a V-neck instead of a turtleneck?
| 59 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 2:43:33pm |
re: #55 american_peanuts
Not sure about mentioning beer, grill and salad seasoning on a day of mourning and remembrance. With what's going on in the States with "sale weekend" and people greeting "Happy Memorial Day", I feel a bit off ...
Our mourning is a bit more complete.But that's me.
Thank You !
of course you are correct but we are who we are. I personally feel this to be a somber holiday but life goes on.
| 60 |
Ericus58 Mon, May 31, 2010 2:43:52pm |
re: #56 _RememberTonyC
I don't know why this bothers me, but it does.
[Link: www.google.com...]
Google, which honors any number of occasions with its front page art work chose to not honor our fallen soldiers. But seeing all of the wonderful sentiments expressed on LGF makes me very proud to be a part of this forum.
A shame.
To be fair, Bing didn't either.
Only Yahoo.
| 62 |
prairiefire Mon, May 31, 2010 2:44:46pm |
Thanks for sharing, lizards. Every one a heartfelt message of American pride and liberty.
| 63 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 2:44:51pm |
re: #47 MandyManners
I'm surprised no one has claimed all those knives were for cleaning fish.
They were for the onboard sushi buffet!
| 64 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 2:45:24pm |
| 65 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 2:45:55pm |
re: #56 _RememberTonyC
I don't know why this bothers me, but it does.
[Link: www.google.com...]
Google, which honors any number of occasions with its front page art work chose to not honor our fallen soldiers. But seeing all of the wonderful sentiments expressed on LGF makes me very proud to be a part of this forum.
I stand corrected ... there is a small tribute on the front page below the search field, but it was far less than what would have been appropriate.
| 66 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:45:55pm |
re: #55 american_peanuts
Not sure about mentioning beer, grill and salad seasoning on a day of mourning and remembrance. With what's going on in the States with "sale weekend" and people greeting "Happy Memorial Day", I feel a bit off ...
Our mourning is a bit more complete.But that's me.
Thank You !
We also eat when we sit Shiva. I hear what you are saying though. I personally can't stand the commercialization and degradation of things that I feel should be sacred. I promise you though, most Americans - and certainly all the posters here - understand what is being remembered.
| 67 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 2:46:35pm |
re: #56 _RememberTonyC
I don't know why this bothers me, but it does.
[Link: www.google.com...]
Google, which honors any number of occasions with its front page art work chose to not honor our fallen soldiers. But seeing all of the wonderful sentiments expressed on LGF makes me very proud to be a part of this forum.
Some of us discussed this last night. My argument was that I appreciate the minimalist approach (and there is an image on the page with the yellow ribbon).
| 68 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 2:46:40pm |
re: #63 Alouette
They were for the onboard sushi buffet!
A scimitar is always handy for slicing through those giant California Rolls.
/
| 69 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 2:47:52pm |
Tikkun wants to say kaddish for the "flotilla martyrs"
Why am I not surprised?
| 70 |
blueraven Mon, May 31, 2010 2:49:10pm |
re: #56 _RememberTonyC
I don't know why this bothers me, but it does.
[Link: www.google.com...]
Google, which honors any number of occasions with its front page art work chose to not honor our fallen soldiers. But seeing all of the wonderful sentiments expressed on LGF makes me very proud to be a part of this forum.
Actually, they do honor our soldiers. At least I am seeing a small flag with a yellow ribbon and the words: In honor of the soldiers who have given their lives for our country.
This is underneath the search bar. Maybe they felt it too solemn an occasion to use their normally humorous examples.
| 71 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 2:49:18pm |
Thanks to my father, and his brothers, the dead ones and the live ones, for all they have done on this day.
Decorations Day is what this day was originally known as, and if you haven't been to a memorial or cemetery yet there is still time to buy some flowers.
| 72 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 2:50:04pm |
re: #70 blueraven
Actually, they do honor our soldiers. At least I am seeing a small flag with a yellow ribbon and the words: In honor of the soldiers who have given their lives for our country.
This is underneath the search bar. Maybe they felt it too solemn an occasion to use their normally humorous examples.
Yeah. I'm behind them on this. I'd feel that a big splashy image would be inappropriate.
| 73 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 2:50:22pm |
re: #69 Alouette
Tikkun wants to say kaddish for the "flotilla martyrs"
Why am I not surprised?
get ready," flotilla martyrs " is going to be the flavor of the month...
| 74 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:51:26pm |
re: #68 Gus 802
A scimitar is always handy for slicing through those giant California Rolls.
/
Yeah, now think about the balls of those Israelis, knowing they are repelling into that mess, with loaded paintball rifles as a first weapon. Think about how they know they are going into that mess, knowing that the politics of the world is such that they can't do what any other military would do and simply cripple the ship or sink it if it did not come about. Think about how they went anyway.
The one thing that Israel can claim militarily over America - at least America for the last 150 years, is that their soldiers know that war comes to them, on their soil and in their waters. If they lose a battle, there is no room for their women and children to retreat to. If they fail, the lives of those they are sworn to defend are put at risk.
No American has had to face a threat like that in long enough, that I think we really can do them proper credit.
| 75 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 2:51:26pm |
OT:
New Stats from France
Rise in racist attacks
Another grim statistic published Monday was the amount of racist crime in France. A government agency counted 1026 acts of racist violence or threats of racist violence in 2009, most of which were directed against North Africans. This was up from 467 in 2008.
Six mosques were attacked, which was two more than in 2008.
According to statistics, anti-Semitic violence had also risen from 459 reported acts or threats of violence to 815. Thirty attacks were also made against French synagogues in 2009.
| 76 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:52:09pm |
re: #69 Alouette
Tikkun wants to say kaddish for the "flotilla martyrs"
Why am I not surprised?
I do not normally clench my fists when I read something. Disgrace. It's a disgrace.
| 77 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 2:52:54pm |
re: #51 HoosierHoops
The baseball bats were for a JV game on the Gaza Beach..
/
And the marbles were for the little boys of Gaza.
| 78 |
american_peanuts Mon, May 31, 2010 2:52:55pm |
re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote
I know, and my many years here have taught me that *real* America is not what I see on E channel or even CNN. It is places like this forum who shine the brightest light on the true (dare I say) patriotic America I love.
Sadly, the further you are from the death-toll you paid for your liberty, the more insensitive you will be to it's price; but if you think about it - that is the meaning of that sacrifice.
So in the places where battles were fought, women and children frolic.
But it doesn't mean one can forget it.
I'm sorry, I'm being overly poetic today.
I'll sign off and come back in a better mood.
| 79 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 2:54:03pm |
| 80 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 2:54:06pm |
re: #73 brookly red
get ready," flotilla martyrs " is going to be the flavor of the month...
I was hoping for Rocky Road.
| 81 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 2:54:25pm |
re: #78 american_peanuts
I know, and my many years here have taught me that *real* America is not what I see on E channel or even CNN. It is places like this forum who shine the brightest light on the true (dare I say) patriotic America I love.
Sadly, the further you are from the death-toll you paid for your liberty, the more insensitive you will be to it's price; but if you think about it - that is the meaning of that sacrifice.
So in the places where battles were fought, women and children frolic.
But it doesn't mean one can forget it.I'm sorry, I'm being overly poetic today.
I'll sign off and come back in a better mood.
It's ok. If more people were poetic in that way more often, then we would have a much better world.
| 82 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 2:54:32pm |
re: #77 MandyManners
And the marbles were for the little boys of Gaza.
The switchblades were for the carving of Scrimshaw.
/
| 83 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 2:54:48pm |
re: #55 american_peanuts
Not sure about mentioning beer, grill and salad seasoning on a day of mourning and remembrance. With what's going on in the States with "sale weekend" and people greeting "Happy Memorial Day", I feel a bit off ...
Our mourning is a bit more complete.But that's me.
Thank You !
I kinda' feel the same way but, they fought for our freedom to attend the White Sale at the mall and grill that steak.
| 84 |
prairiefire Mon, May 31, 2010 2:54:54pm |
I'm very glad to see the American flag Charles added to the LGF logo for this weekend.
My paternal grandpa was too old to serve in WW2. He poured bullets at a munitions plant in IL. He was a flashy salesman, not a laborer. My dad said he would always come home with burns on his arms from missing the mold.
Not a glamorous service, but he did what he could. They all did.
I'm getting all verklempt again...
| 85 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 2:55:53pm |
one good thing from this Gaza dustup is that, hopefully, it should now be simple policy that Israel will return force against them with greater force...applied to Gaza proper as well as flo teeyas...just declare it in one sentence and stand by the words....no more mister nice guy
| 86 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 2:56:01pm |
| 87 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 2:56:07pm |
re: #84 prairiefire
I'm very glad to see the American flag Charles added to the LGF logo for this weekend.
My paternal grandpa was too old to serve in WW2. He poured bullets at a munitions plant in IL. He was a flashy salesman, not a laborer. My dad said he would always come home with burns on his arms from missing the mold.
Not a glamorous service, but he did what he could. They all did.
I'm getting all verklempt again...
All gave some
Some gave all
| 88 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 2:56:24pm |
re: #84 prairiefire
Did he just add that today? I hadn't noticed it.
| 89 |
abolitionist Mon, May 31, 2010 2:56:33pm |
| 90 |
prairiefire Mon, May 31, 2010 2:56:52pm |
| 92 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 2:58:02pm |
re: #74 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah, now think about the balls of those Israelis, knowing they are repelling into that mess, with loaded paintball rifles as a first weapon. Think about how they know they are going into that mess, knowing that the politics of the world is such that they can't do what any other military would do and simply cripple the ship or sink it if it did not come about. Think about how they went anyway.
The one thing that Israel can claim militarily over America - at least America for the last 150 years, is that their soldiers know that war comes to them, on their soil and in their waters. If they lose a battle, there is no room for their women and children to retreat to. If they fail, the lives of those they are sworn to defend are put at risk.
No American has had to face a threat like that in long enough, that I think we really can do them proper credit.
So Ludwig the next time these folks come with a full complement of useful idiots who threaten to blow them selves up if not allowed to pass into Gaza... then what?
| 93 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 2:58:27pm |
re: #69 Alouette
Tikkun wants to say kaddish for the "flotilla martyrs"
Why am I not surprised?
Yeah, I'm sorry they wasted their lives on a violent enterprise.
| 94 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 2:59:47pm |
re: #92 brookly red
So Ludwig the next time these folks come with a full complement of useful idiots who threaten to blow them selves up if not allowed to pass into Gaza... then what?
that's an easy one...let them
| 95 |
jerk Mon, May 31, 2010 2:59:48pm |
re: #1 SanFranciscoZionist
I am thinking of my grandpa too. He was a merchant marine in WWII. Though we don't know the specifics of what he saw exactly, we know that he worked in a boiler room of the ship and could hear the German subs nearby. At one point, his supervisor told him to keep working while he fled to the upper decks. He never forgot that guy.
| 96 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:00:21pm |
re: #92 brookly red
So Ludwig the next time these folks come with a full complement of useful idiots who threaten to blow them selves up if not allowed to pass into Gaza... then what?
Let them blow themselves up. If they run the blockade, help them along. Sinking exactly one non-compliant ship will stop all future leftwing Europeans going on such adventures. This is not a game. They are aiding a terror group dedicated to murder. Let them swim home.
| 97 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:01:25pm |
re: #74 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah, now think about the balls of those Israelis, knowing they are repelling into that mess, with loaded paintball rifles as a first weapon. Think about how they know they are going into that mess, knowing that the politics of the world is such that they can't do what any other military would do and simply cripple the ship or sink it if it did not come about. Think about how they went anyway.
The one thing that Israel can claim militarily over America - at least America for the last 150 years, is that their soldiers know that war comes to them, on their soil and in their waters. If they lose a battle, there is no room for their women and children to retreat to. If they fail, the lives of those they are sworn to defend are put at risk.
No American has had to face a threat like that in long enough, that I think we really can do them proper credit.
Big, clanging ones.
| 98 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:02:00pm |
| 99 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:02:06pm |
| 100 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, May 31, 2010 3:03:58pm |
re: #96 LudwigVanQuixote
Let them blow themselves up. If they run the blockade, help them along. Sinking exactly one non-compliant ship will stop all future leftwing Europeans going on such adventures. This is not a game. They are aiding a terror group dedicated to murder. Let them swim home.
Damn right. The end-game here is to lift the blockade so Hamas can bring in the artillery and real rockets it needs to flatten Israeli towns and massacre their populations. The Euro tools are not idiots, appearances notwithstanding, they know this and they work diligently toward it.
| 101 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:04:18pm |
re: #98 brookly red
re: #96 LudwigVanQuixote
OK just checking cause you know damn well that will be next.
Do you think for a moment I would have sympathy for those who wish to aid those who want to murder friends and family in the homeland of my people? This is absolutely not a game. Disproportionate response would be declaring war on Turkey. Perfectly legitimate response (at least for anyone else) would have been sinking the first ship to cross a certain line after a shot was fired across her bough.
| 102 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:05:20pm |
where's Gilad Shalit?
murderous fucking scum...
the IDF should be occupying Gaza this moment
| 103 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:05:32pm |
I don't know the law or even if this is a good idea, but if I wanted to discourage ships from going some place I would announce that the area was mined... any thoughts?
| 104 |
Political Atheist Mon, May 31, 2010 3:06:10pm |
re: #103 brookly red
I suspect far too much legitimate traffic. Fishing trading etc.
| 105 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:06:15pm |
re: #99 LudwigVanQuixote
Even on the women - meant with respect.
There were female soldiers in on it?
| 106 |
PhillyPretzel Mon, May 31, 2010 3:06:18pm |
On this Memorial Day let us remember all who have served. I admit if it were not for my dad who served in WWII, in SHAEF Headquarters, I would have never learned about WWII. I will say it again, Thanks Dad.
| 107 |
abolitionist Mon, May 31, 2010 3:06:48pm |
re: #103 brookly red
I don't know the law or even if this is a good idea, but if I wanted to discourage ships from going some place I would announce that the area was mined... any thoughts?
I suspect the MSM would not be persuaded to verify.
| 108 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:06:56pm |
re: #103 brookly red
I don't know the law or even if this is a good idea, but if I wanted to discourage ships from going some place I would announce that the area was mined... any thoughts?
can't do that
| 109 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:07:10pm |
re: #103 brookly red
I don't know the law or even if this is a good idea, but if I wanted to discourage ships from going some place I would announce that the area was mined... any thoughts?
Local fishermen would prove otherwise.
| 110 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:07:12pm |
re: #102 albusteve
where's Gilad Shalit?
murderous fucking scum...
the IDF should be occupying Gaza this moment
For once we are in complete agreement - at least in sentiment. My solution to that situation is shut off the water and the power until he comes home. Their democratically elected government has him. Their democratically elected government can explain to those who elected them that voting for war has consequences.
| 111 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:07:22pm |
re: #103 brookly red
I think mining is illegal now. I know land mining is (Not counting the US)
| 112 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:07:56pm |
Cnn just tweeted that "as many as 9 Americans" were aboard the flotilla and are being held by Israeli authorities.
| 113 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 3:07:58pm |
Column One: Netanyahu, Obama’s newest prop
By CAROLINE GLICK
05/28/2010 15:25Netanyahu must not permit Obama’s public relations campaign to divert him from this mission.
The Democratic Party is feeling the heat for US President Barack Obama’s hostility towards Israel. In an interview with Channel 10 earlier this month, Democratic Party mega-donor Haim Saban characterized the Obama administration as ideologically aligned with the radical Left and harshly criticized its treatment of Israel.
Both Ma’ariv and Yediot Aharonot reported this week that Democratic congressmen and senators are deeply concerned that the administration’s harsh treatment of Israel has convinced many American Jews not to contribute to their campaigns or to the Democratic Party ahead of November 2’s mid-term elections. They also fear that American Jews will vote for Republican challengers in large numbers.
It is these concerns, rather than a decision to alter his positions on Israel specifically and the Middle East generally, that now drive Obama’s relentless courtship of the American Jewish community. His latest move in this sphere was his sudden invitation to Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to visit him at the White House for a “warm reception” in front of television cameras next Tuesday.
It is clear that electoral worries rather than policy concerns are behind what the White House has described as a “charm offensive,” because since launching this offensive a few weeks ago, Obama not changed any of his policies towards Israel and the wider Middle East. In fact, he has ratcheted up these policies to Israel’s detriment.
TAKE HIS goal of ridding the world of nuclear weapons. On Friday, the UN’s monthlong Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference is scheduled to adopt a consensual resolution before adjourning. According to multiple media reports, Israel is set to be the focus of the draft resolution that will likely be adopted.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
I think Israel can safely offer to relinquish its nukes as soon as India and Pakistan have verifiably done so.
| 114 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:08:12pm |
re: #105 MandyManners
There were female soldiers in on it?
Unlikely that that there were women who rappelled. Almost certain that women were serving on the ships or helicopters in that action.
| 115 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:08:27pm |
re: #112 Thanos
Cnn just tweeted that "as many as 9 Americans" were aboard the flotilla and are being held by Israeli authorities.
Could they keep them?
| 116 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:09:01pm |
re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote
Unlikely that that there were women who rappelled. Almost certain that women were serving on the ships or helicopters in that action.
Do they serve in combat roles in the IDF/IAF?
| 117 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:09:02pm |
re: #113 Spare O'Lake
Heh, the ones they don't admit having? >>
| 118 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:09:14pm |
New Hellmouth open in Guatemala....
//where's Buffy when you need her?
| 119 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:09:25pm |
re: #112 Thanos
Cnn just tweeted that "as many as 9 Americans" were aboard the flotilla and are being held by Israeli authorities.
Well we took back Jane Fonda, I suppose we have to take those folks back too. I wonder how many were journalists.
| 121 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, May 31, 2010 3:10:17pm |
re: #69 Alouette
Tikkun wants to say kaddish for the "flotilla martyrs"
Why am I not surprised?
I deleted the e-mail I got from Tikkun this morning without reading it. There is a limit to what I can handle today.
Also, several personal semi-crises have blown up.
Thank God, a wonderful woman has invited me and my friend who can't go home for a while to her house for a barbecue.
| 122 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, May 31, 2010 3:10:38pm |
re: #70 blueraven
Actually, they do honor our soldiers. At least I am seeing a small flag with a yellow ribbon and the words: In honor of the soldiers who have given their lives for our country.
This is underneath the search bar. Maybe they felt it too solemn an occasion to use their normally humorous examples.
They do occasionally do simple and touching, though.
| 123 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:10:43pm |
re: #119 LudwigVanQuixote
Well we took back Jane Fonda, I suppose we have to take those folks back too. I wonder how many were journalists.
Sorry hit enter on that before providing linkage... .
[Link: news.blogs.cnn.com...]
| 124 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:10:57pm |
re: #111 windsagio
I think mining is illegal now. I know land mining is (Not counting the US)
Only to those that are signatories to the Ottawa Treaty. And that only applies to anti-personnel mines and not naval mines.
The full non-signatory list to the Ottawa Treaty includes:
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Burma
China
Cuba
Egypt
Micronesia
Finland
Georgia
India
Iran
Israel
Kazakhstan
North Korea
South Korea
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Libya
Mongolia
Morocco
Nepal
Oman
Pakistan
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
Somalia
Sri Lanka
Syria
Tonga
Tuvalu
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
That being said I don't think naval mining in this case is even remotely a good idea.
| 125 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:12:11pm |
re: #124 Gus 802
no efficient enough, and indiscriminant...direct gunfire pleases me
| 126 |
Political Atheist Mon, May 31, 2010 3:12:30pm |
re: #119 LudwigVanQuixote
Very good point. Journalists would be a routine matter. If any Americans attacked soldiers that can do the time in jail. Whatever the sentence.
| 127 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:12:51pm |
re: #124 Gus 802
Thanks! Didn't know Israel was a non-signer, altho' it kinda makes sense.
Yeah, mining would be iffy. Its a bad enough catch-22 as it is.
| 128 |
Political Atheist Mon, May 31, 2010 3:13:01pm |
re: #126 Rightwingconspirator
Very good point. Journalists would be a routine matter. If any Americans attacked soldiers that can do the time in jail. Whatever the sentence.
PIMF They can do the time...
| 129 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:13:04pm |
| 130 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:13:46pm |
Interesting note from that article, it has a timeline of sorts:
– All six boats in a Gaza-bound aid flotilla were boarded by Israeli naval commandos, according to the Israel Defense Forces. Only one, the Mamara, offered resistance; the other five surrendered peacefully, the military said.
| 131 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:14:40pm |
re: #124 Gus 802
That being said I don't think naval mining in this case is even remotely a good idea.
It has it's upside & downside, upside it is a real non-negotiable deterrence. Downside it is a real non-negotiable deterrence.
| 132 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:14:51pm |
re: #116 MandyManners
Do they serve in combat roles in the IDF/IAF?
They used to back in the early days. I have an aunt who is a retired general officer in the IDF. When she was a teen, she was given an uzi and 200 Egyptian prisoners to guard.
It is my understanding that women were removed from frontline infantry duty almost as soon as the population of Israel was large enough to be able to do so.
The reason for it was two fold:
1. If they were captured by Arabs, the consequences to their persons were very much more severe.
2. Sometimes in military situations, in order to save a platoon of soldiers, you really must withdraw. Sometimes that means someone gets cut off. If the person cu off was female, male soldiers would not withdraw. This led to greater losses.
I know for a fact that Israel has female pilots and naval officers and personnel who serve in combat roles. Also many Israeli women serve as instructors in the IDF for basic training. It was found that me preformed much better when a woman was showing them how to shoot. Men simply don't want their little sister showing them up.
| 133 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:15:14pm |
re: #129 MandyManners
Wow. That thing's huge.
Here's hoping nobody was in that house on the corner when it fell...
| 134 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:15:27pm |
re: #130 Thanos
Interesting note from that article, it has a timeline of sorts:
separate the IDF, spread them out to thin their ranks?
| 135 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:15:43pm |
re: #130 Thanos
Should everyone on those boats be banned from travelling to Israel?
| 136 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:15:59pm |
re: #131 brookly red
Other downside is what steve said 'indiscriminate'. Leaving bombs floating around can lead to accidents, especially in the longterm. And they don't need that kind of accident one bit.
| 137 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:16:11pm |
re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist
I deleted the e-mail I got from Tikkun this morning without reading it. There is a limit to what I can handle today.
Also, several personal semi-crises have blown up.
Thank God, a wonderful woman has invited me and my friend who can't go home for a while to her house for a barbecue.
{SFZ} Well remember that you are loved here too.
| 138 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:16:48pm |
re: #132 LudwigVanQuixote
They used to back in the early days. I have an aunt who is a retired general officer in the IDF. When she was a teen, she was given an uzi and 200 Egyptian prisoners to guard.
It is my understanding that women were removed from frontline infantry duty almost as soon as the population of Israel was large enough to be able to do so.
The reason for it was two fold:
1. If they were captured by Arabs, the consequences to their persons were very much more severe.
2. Sometimes in military situations, in order to save a platoon of soldiers, you really must withdraw. Sometimes that means someone gets cut off. If the person cu off was female, male soldiers would not withdraw. This led to greater losses.
I know for a fact that Israel has female pilots and naval officers and personnel who serve in combat roles. Also many Israeli women serve as instructors in the IDF for basic training. It was found that me preformed much better when a woman was showing them how to shoot. Men simply don't want their little sister showing them up.
LOL! Sometimes ego can be a good thing.
| 139 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:17:10pm |
re: #133 Thanos
Here's hoping nobody was in that house on the corner when it fell...
Any casualties?
| 140 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:17:30pm |
| 141 |
reine.de.tout Mon, May 31, 2010 3:18:03pm |
re: #78 american_peanuts
I know, and my many years here have taught me that *real* America is not what I see on E channel or even CNN. It is places like this forum who shine the brightest light on the true (dare I say) patriotic America I love.
Sadly, the further you are from the death-toll you paid for your liberty, the more insensitive you will be to it's price; but if you think about it - that is the meaning of that sacrifice.
So in the places where battles were fought, women and children frolic.
But it doesn't mean one can forget it.I'm sorry, I'm being overly poetic today.
I'll sign off and come back in a better mood.
Oh, please stay!
that was beautiful.
| 142 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:18:25pm |
re: #136 windsagio
Other downside is what steve said 'indiscriminate'. Leaving bombs floating around can lead to accidents, especially in the longterm. And they don't need that kind of accident one bit.
of course they are discriminate, if you are not there they can not hurt you.
| 143 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:18:37pm |
| 144 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:19:04pm |
re: #125 albusteve
no efficient enough, and indiscriminant...direct gunfire pleases me
For this particular scenario what the IDF did is sufficient. They did not employ direct gunfire on the ship and only fired their weapons on an individual basis. I don't think the IDF wants to start indiscriminately firing upon these ships let alone blowing them out of the water.
If the Turkish navy gets involved that would be a different story altogether.
| 145 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:19:06pm |
time for some groovy, patriotic piccolo
| 146 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:19:26pm |
re: #142 brookly red
The problem is mines drift, and anyways I don't think they are totally stopping all vessels in the area. As someone else said, aren't there fishermen and such about?
| 147 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:19:31pm |
re: #142 brookly red
of course they are discriminate, if you are not there they can not hurt you.
Why hurt the Gazans who fish?
| 148 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:20:11pm |
re: #100 Shiplord Kirel
Damn right. The end-game here is to lift the blockade so Hamas can bring in the artillery and real rockets it needs to flatten Israeli towns and massacre their populations. The Euro tools are not idiots, appearances notwithstanding, they know this and they work diligently toward it.
Everyone knows this.
| 149 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:20:30pm |
re: #147 MandyManners
Especially since beyond the fact that hurting them is bad, it also makes your international situation far worse.
The methods they're using work quite well, as last nights events have shown.
| 150 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:20:49pm |
Somehow, I get the feeling that the traditional LGF stalkers are copying and pasting our comments.
See they haven't changed!11!!1! //
| 151 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:21:59pm |
re: #135 MandyManners
Should everyone on those boats be banned from travelling to Israel?
I would say at least everyone who was on the Marmara who is suspect should.
I'm still wondering on the order, did some boats surrender before the boarding of the Marmara to lull the IDF?
| 152 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:22:32pm |
re: #149 windsagio
Especially since beyond the fact that hurting them is bad, it also makes your international situation far worse.
The methods they're using work quite well, as last nights events have shown.
Maybe not in the long run with people who think.
| 153 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 3:22:51pm |
re: #117 windsagio
Only a moron would think he was ever going to convince a nuclear power to relinquish its arsenal. Since Obama is not a moron, his utter bullcrap about a nuke-free world is simply political cover for his betrayal of his allies and for his placation of his enemies.
| 154 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:23:01pm |
re: #151 Thanos
That kind of speculation is pretty unfounded really.
They seem more dummies than evil genius types.
| 155 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:23:03pm |
re: #147 MandyManners
Why hurt the Gazans who fish?
A. anchor them so they don't float about
B. clearly mark the area
it only takes one or two and truth be told they don't even have to be real, just the thought will discourage most.
| 156 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:23:10pm |
re: #151 Thanos
I would say at least everyone who was on the Marmara who is suspect should.
I'm still wondering on the order, did some boats surrender before the boarding of the Marmara to lull the IDF?
It seems.
| 158 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:23:55pm |
re: #153 Spare O'Lake
I'm all fought out after last night spare, so please >>
| 159 |
reine.de.tout Mon, May 31, 2010 3:23:57pm |
re: #150 Gus 802
Somehow, I get the feeling that the traditional LGF stalkers are copying and pasting our comments.
See they haven't changed!11!!1! //
You got that feeling ,eh?
| 160 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:24:04pm |
re: #155 brookly red
A. anchor them so they don't float about
B. clearly mark the areait only takes one or two and truth be told they don't even have to be real, just the thought will discourage most.
Shit happens.
| 161 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:24:05pm |
re: #139 MandyManners
Any casualties?
Yes, the storm killed 99 last I looked. The sinkhole was enlarged by rain running down all four streets you see entering that intersection, so it happened over time so I doubt that anyone actually went in.
| 162 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:24:30pm |
| 163 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:25:04pm |
| 164 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:25:06pm |
re: #161 Thanos
Yes, the storm killed 99 last I looked. The sinkhole was enlarged by rain running down all four streets you see entering that intersection, so it happened over time so I doubt that anyone actually went in.
That's a good thing.
| 165 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:25:43pm |
re: #155 brookly red
A. anchor them so they don't float about
B. clearly mark the areait only takes one or two and truth be told they don't even have to be real, just the thought will discourage most.
no mines...that is way too brazen and the opportunity for foul play or accident is just too high....Israel does not need to use mines....lethal force upon boarding works for me
| 166 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 3:26:25pm |
re: #151 Thanos
I would say at least everyone who was on the Marmara who is suspect should.
I'm still wondering on the order, did some boats surrender before the boarding of the Marmara to lull the IDF?
Yeah, good point, I'd like to know that too.
| 167 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:26:34pm |
re: #162 MandyManners
I think interdicting and boarding (if neccessary) with nonlethal primary weapons is actually a really brilliant longterm policy, if requiring real balls on the parts of the soldiers involved.
The 2 goals they had to meet were stopping the ships and not seeming the aggressors. I can't think of any way to do that, but the method they chose was closer than anything else I can think of.
| 168 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:26:38pm |
Hey all, just popping in to wish everyne a fine holiday while I wait for the charcoal to get to temp. I wrote this thing early this morning thinking about the many relatives who offered thier lives in service for thier country. We are a lucky family descended from a veteran of the French and Indian Wars and of the many who have served this great country, only 4 have died in that service - a great great great uncle who's buried somewhere in Mexico, a couple 4th or 5th (or 6th) cousins at Lookout Mountain and my Uncle Dean in Korea.
Anywho, I'm not much on death, so I honored those that lived through war also.
Time to crack a cold one, have a great Memorial Day and shed a tear for someone you love.
| 169 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:26:41pm |
| 170 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:26:58pm |
re: #144 Gus 802
For this particular scenario what the IDF did is sufficient. They did not employ direct gunfire on the ship and only fired their weapons on an individual basis. I don't think the IDF wants to start indiscriminately firing upon these ships let alone blowing them out of the water.
If the Turkish navy gets involved that would be a different story altogether.
In that case, the Turkish Navy would meet the IAF... They would find the firepower and professional skills of the IAF very impressive - for about 45 seconds.
The fallout from it though is almost unthinkable.
| 171 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:27:51pm |
re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote
The fallout from it though is almost unthinkable.
Requoted for emphasis. War with Turkey would be a nogoodjob.
| 172 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:28:32pm |
re: #167 windsagio
I think interdicting and boarding (if neccessary) with nonlethal primary weapons is actually a really brilliant longterm policy, if requiring real balls on the parts of the soldiers involved.
The 2 goals they had to meet were stopping the ships and not seeming the aggressors. I can't think of any way to do that, but the method they chose was closer than anything else I can think of.
huh?...are you that naive?....board a potentially hostile ship with no means to defend yourself?....would you ask Americans to do that interdicting drugs?
| 173 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:28:41pm |
re: #167 windsagio
I think interdicting and boarding (if neccessary) with nonlethal primary weapons is actually a really brilliant longterm policy, if requiring real balls on the parts of the soldiers involved.
The 2 goals they had to meet were stopping the ships and not seeming the aggressors. I can't think of any way to do that, but the method they chose was closer than anything else I can think of.
What else could they have done?
| 174 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:28:58pm |
re: #165 albusteve
no mines...that is way too brazen and the opportunity for foul play or accident is just too high...Israel does not need to use mines...lethal force upon boarding works for me
seems to me that is why we are discussing this in the first place.
| 175 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:29:02pm |
re: #171 windsagio
Requoted for emphasis. War with Turkey would be a nogoodjob.
Yes, but if Turkey feels the need to arm Hamas, then they are declaring war. Of course, Israel has ignored Syrian and Iranian provocation along those lines for some time.
| 176 |
SixDegrees Mon, May 31, 2010 3:29:31pm |
re: #155 brookly red
Unfortunately, this is precisely the sort of thing the nutters who staged today's event have wet dreams about. They'd be thrilled to sail a boatload of children straight into a minefield for a photo-op.
Direct interdiction is the best policy. A clear statement that you'll either allow your ship to be boarded for inspection, or it will be sunk, would have just as great a deterrent effect, and would put the onus on those violating the blockade to show cause supporting their actions.
| 177 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:29:44pm |
re: #154 windsagio
That kind of speculation is pretty unfounded really.
They seem more dummies than evil genius types.
Gee, Windsagio, thanks for letting me know that it's not ok to ask questions.
It's ok to wonder what the facts are, I am not speculating, I'm asking the question. Speculating is what you do in the absence of facts when you use words like "seem." When I truly speculate I usually label it as such.
| 178 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:29:47pm |
re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote
In that case, the Turkish Navy would meet the IAF... They would find the firepower and professional skills of the IAF very impressive - for about 45 seconds.
The fallout from it though is almost unthinkable.
Yeah, it would be a mess. So far Turkey is only playing the roll of largely aiding and abating to this stunt. Given their PM's recent comment that "the west is being unfair to Iran" and this event I think it's safe to say that we should keep close watch on Turkey -- they're not trustworthy as the Greeks would attest.
| 179 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, May 31, 2010 3:29:53pm |
re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote
In that case, the Turkish Navy would meet the IAF... They would find the firepower and professional skills of the IAF very impressive - for about 45 seconds.
The fallout from it though is almost unthinkable.
Israel should try to send some uninspected "humanitarian aid" to the Kurds via Turkey.
| 180 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:13pm |
re: #173 MandyManners
I have no idea, that's my point. I think they figured out the best possible strategy and went with it.
All armies sometimes put soldiers at additional risk due to geopolitical factors, its just the way it goes... And to tie in with Mem, day that they're willing to go into those situations anyways is even more amazing.
| 181 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:16pm |
re: #167 windsagio
I think interdicting and boarding (if neccessary) with nonlethal primary weapons is actually a really brilliant longterm policy, if requiring real balls on the parts of the soldiers involved.
The 2 goals they had to meet were stopping the ships and not seeming the aggressors. I can't think of any way to do that, but the method they chose was closer than anything else I can think of.
I think letting exactly one boat full of "activists" become fish food, will put an end to any further such issues.
| 182 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:29pm |
re: #154 windsagio
That kind of speculation is pretty unfounded really.
They seem more dummies than evil genius types.
That is entirely speculative on your part.
| 183 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:33pm |
re: #174 brookly red
seems to me that is why we are discussing this in the first place.
I don't care about gadgets or peripheral weaponry...board them and kill them with small arms if you have to
| 184 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:35pm |
re: #175 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes, but if Turkey feels the need to arm Hamas, then they are declaring war. Of course, Israel has ignored Syrian and Iranian provocation along those lines for some time.
And now Hizb'allah likely has scuds.
| 185 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:48pm |
re: #178 Gus 802
Yeah, it would be a mess. So far Turkey is only playing the roll of largely aiding and abating to this stunt. Given their PM's recent comment that "the west is being unfair to Iran" and this event I think it's safe to say that we should keep close watch on Turkey -- they're not trustworthy as the Greeks would attest.
The nearly communist Greeks are not so trustworthy either.
| 186 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:59pm |
re: #176 SixDegrees
Unfortunately, this is precisely the sort of thing the nutters who staged today's event have wet dreams about. They'd be thrilled to sail a boatload of children straight into a minefield for a photo-op.
Direct interdiction is the best policy. A clear statement that you'll either allow your ship to be boarded for inspection, or it will be sunk, would have just as great a deterrent effect, and would put the onus on those violating the blockade to show cause supporting their actions.
OK now that I can see, thank you.
| 187 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:31:17pm |
re: #172 albusteve
Primary weapons man, clearly they had weapons capable of killing people.
As to the other, the situation is different... substantially different. A reminder why we in the US should be glad we're not in Israel's position.
| 188 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:31:23pm |
| 189 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:31:25pm |
re: #179 Shiplord Kirel
Israel should try to send some uninspected "humanitarian aid" to the Kurds via Turkey.
The world would have a shit-fit.
| 190 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:32:12pm |
re: #184 MandyManners
And now Hizb'allah likely has scuds.
That is the second true comment here today that has caused me to clench my fists. The unbearable stupidity of Olmert can never be overstated. You do not abort a campaign that needs to be fought and you do not leave an undefeated enemy to re-arm and regroup on your flank.
| 191 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:32:12pm |
| 192 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:32:36pm |
re: #180 windsagio
I have no idea, that's my point. I think they figured out the best possible strategy and went with it.
All armies sometimes put soldiers at additional risk due to geopolitical factors, its just the way it goes... And to tie in with Mem, day that they're willing to go into those situations anyways is even more amazing.
That's why the youngsters fight them.
| 193 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:32:50pm |
re: #179 Shiplord Kirel
Israel should try to send some uninspected "humanitarian aid" to the Kurds via Turkey.
I rather like that idea.
| 194 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:33:00pm |
| 195 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 3:33:24pm |
re: #192 MandyManners
That's why the youngsters fight them.
And it is the most terrible part of the tragedy when we send them.
| 196 |
SixDegrees Mon, May 31, 2010 3:33:35pm |
re: #178 Gus 802
Yeah, it would be a mess. So far Turkey is only playing the roll of largely aiding and abating to this stunt. Given their PM's recent comment that "the west is being unfair to Iran" and this event I think it's safe to say that we should keep close watch on Turkey -- they're not trustworthy as the Greeks would attest.
Tough call. There are many, many factions operating within Turkey, and even within the Turkish government. The country itself, for instance, made the same offer to the blockade runners that Israel did - unload your cargo at one of our ports, and we'll ensure that it arrives in Gaza. That offer, like Israel's, was refused in favor of the current PR stunt.
| 197 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:33:41pm |
re: #187 windsagio
Primary weapons man, clearly they had weapons capable of killing people.
As to the other, the situation is different... substantially different. A reminder why we in the US should be glad we're not in Israel's position.
somehow I would not trust you in a street brawl....stay away from me please
| 198 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 3:33:52pm |
re: #193 LudwigVanQuixote
I rather like that idea.
Ridiculous idea. Why just today the Kurds fired rockets into Turkey.
Oh, wait...
| 199 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:34:00pm |
re: #190 LudwigVanQuixote
That is the second true comment here today that has caused me to clench my fists. The unbearable stupidity of Olmert can never be overstated. You do not abort a campaign that needs to be fought and you do not leave an undefeated enemy to re-arm and regroup on your flank.
I'm glad he's gone.
Has he been indicted yet?
| 200 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:34:31pm |
re: #195 LudwigVanQuixote
And it is the most terrible part of the tragedy when we send them.
Sometimes reality sucks.
| 202 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:34:45pm |
re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote
The nearly communist Greeks are not so trustworthy either.
Nor the nearly nazi Serbs and Armenians....
| 203 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 3:35:56pm |
re: #190 LudwigVanQuixote
That is the second true comment here today that has caused me to clench my fists. The unbearable stupidity of Olmert can never be overstated. You do not abort a campaign that needs to be fought and you do not leave an undefeated enemy to re-arm and regroup on your flank.
If Israel did not show mercy for the last 10 years..The Middle East would be a wasteland of destruction as far as the eye could see.
That's a fact...
Thank you Israel
| 204 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 3:35:57pm |
The beach was lovely...took short clips of Banjo & Fozzie throughout the journey and am currently creating my first "movie" with them. We'll see how it works out.
| 205 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:36:09pm |
re: #200 MandyManners
It really does. On the other hand (to wax pathetic) there's real heroism there too >>
| 206 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:36:44pm |
| 207 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:37:32pm |
re: #206 MandyManners
Don't you love wars with no good guys at all?
| 208 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:37:39pm |
Talk of aiding the PKK is all the rage at #tcot, wingnut blogs, and at some of the Kahanist blogs, be very careful about the Meme being planted there....
| 209 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 3:37:59pm |
re: #207 windsagio
Don't you love wars with no good guys at all?
I think that describes most of them throughout history.
| 210 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:38:30pm |
Ugh.
Marine aircraft mishap injures 10 at NYC park
By JENNIFER PELTZ (AP) – 2 hours ago
NEW YORK — A U.S. Marine Corps aircraft's powerful propellers whipped up a wind that sent branches hurling off a tree and into a crowd of about 150 people watching a Memorial Day demonstration in a park, leaving 10 people with cuts and other minor injuries, officials and a witness said.
As the Osprey MV-22 aircraft landed at Staten Island's Clove Lakes Park on Monday morning, the wind generated by its twin rotors stirred tree limbs, dirt from a nearby baseball field and other debris into a swirl that sent spectators scattering, witness Ann Hirsch said.
"It was like a storm of sand and garbage and people running," said Hirsch, 66, of Staten Island. "Branches just came down. They were all over the park. ... It was really scary."
| 211 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:39:01pm |
| 212 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 3:39:04pm |
Back to the crisis in our own gulf for a minute...
Tony Hayward, the chief executive officer of BP, offered another explanation for the fishermen's illness: spoiled food."Food poisoning is clearly a big issue," Hayward said Sunday. "It's something we've got to be very mindful of. It's one of the big issues of keeping the Army operating. You know, the Army marches on their stomachs."
I'd like to give that fucker some salmonella to chew on.
| 213 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 3:39:14pm |
re: #210 Gus 802
Okay, why haven't we given up on the damn Osprey by now?
| 214 |
Cato the Elder Mon, May 31, 2010 3:39:14pm |
"You have reached the United Nations. Please listen carefully to the following options, as they have recently changed.
"To leave a message condemning Israel for existing, press 1.
"To leave a message condemning America for supporting the existence of Israel, press 2.
"To speak with us about any other concern, please stay on the line and an assistant will be with you in approximately 24 hours.
"If this is an emergency, please hang up and call 1-800-AMERICA. Thank you, and Itbah al-Yahud."
| 216 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:39:55pm |
re: #207 windsagio
Don't you love wars with no good guys at all?
Well, I'd say that the innocent civlians don't.
| 217 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:39:57pm |
re: #212 darthstar
They need to ship that guy out. He keeps saying these crazy things.
I'm no fan of BP, but that's not helping them at all >>
| 218 |
mr.JA Mon, May 31, 2010 3:40:02pm |
re: #167 windsagio
I think interdicting and boarding (if neccessary) with nonlethal primary weapons is actually a really brilliant longterm policy, if requiring real balls on the parts of the soldiers involved.
The 2 goals they had to meet were stopping the ships and not seeming the aggressors. I can't think of any way to do that, but the method they chose was closer than anything else I can think of.
Nonlethal weapons are nice, until you're threatened with LETHAL force- than you need to be able to defend yourself. I think if the IDF would have boarded the ship while shooting over the 'activists' and forcing everyone to stay down, anti-pirate style, they probably would have put some holes in the ship, but they wouldn't have been in the situation they were now, and would have been in control from the 1st second. Seriously, when I see the commando's landing within these 20-30 activists I really thought "what on earth are they thinking?"...
I've been to Israel, spoken to more than one IDF soldier, and they're really nice and helpful, and are brave man and woman - I have a LOT of respect for those guys and gals, especially in difficult areas such as Hebron.
Here however, in terms of PR and estimation, they could have done things better - and I've read comments from others saying 'screw what the rest of the world thinks', but that is not how politics works - they could have gotten goodwill out of this.
First, they should have put a very clear and very public deadline by which the vessel should have been checked, so the world knows that there is trouble to come.
Then they should have entered the vessel in Israeli water (does it matter for the action? No. Does it matter for the PR-side? Fuck yeah.), and expected more resistance...
Again, I support Israel in the things they did, and think they were necessary... however, I'm still sad at the loss of life, and think that with a bit more thought this could have been prevented...
| 219 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:40:13pm |
re: #213 JasonA
Okay, why haven't we given up on the damn Osprey by now?
Yeah. Wasn't anything related to the Osprey. Looks like it was debris. Still, that doesn't help for the image.
| 220 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:41:00pm |
re: #213 JasonA
Okay, why haven't we given up on the damn Osprey by now?
why?...the bugs have mostly been worked out and the Marines love the thing...it's very unique and hardly worth giving up on
| 221 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 3:41:05pm |
re: #219 Gus 802
Yeah. Wasn't anything related to the Osprey. Looks like it was debris. Still, that doesn't help for the image.
Yes, but you can't sue a tree for dropping leaves in your potato salad.
| 222 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:41:23pm |
re: #218 mr.JA
I didn't wanna ask, but they did actually board in international waters?
That was kinda poor judgement.
| 223 |
Randall Gross Mon, May 31, 2010 3:41:44pm |
re: #206 MandyManners
I was thinking more of the Blood and Honor sorts actually in Serbia Mandy, not the Bosnians, you know: the Krv i čast.
| 224 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:41:59pm |
re: #221 darthstar
Yes, but you can't sue a tree for dropping leaves in your potato salad.
Oh, I'm sure some law firm will think of something. Let's see, they can blame it on tree maintenance.
| 225 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:42:09pm |
re: #218 mr.JA
No matter WHAT Israel could have done, those assholes were looking for a fight and some even martyrdom.
| 226 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:42:45pm |
re: #222 windsagio
I didn't wanna ask, but they did actually board in international waters?
That was kinda poor judgement.
why?
| 227 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:43:12pm |
re: #223 Thanos
I was thinking more of the Blood and Honor sorts actually in Serbia Mandy, not the Bosnians, you know: the Krv i čast.
Oh, those goose-stepping assholes.
| 228 |
Cato the Elder Mon, May 31, 2010 3:43:13pm |
re: #222 windsagio
I didn't wanna ask, but they did actually board in international waters?
That was kinda poor judgement.
That is a canard.
Boarding in international waters when the ship is bound for the blockaded port is perfectly legitimated by international naval warfare regulations.
| 229 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 3:43:50pm |
re: #219 Gus 802
Yeah. Wasn't anything related to the Osprey. Looks like it was debris. Still, that doesn't help for the image.
Huh? It was debris from the craft's wind. Did they just use poor judgment landing there?
| 230 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:44:20pm |
re: #229 JasonA
Huh? It was debris from the craft's wind. Did they just use poor judgment landing there?
that's where the park was
| 231 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:44:39pm |
re: #226 albusteve
Because it's a delicate situation, and they really do need to be aware of their image. Also, unless they were doing some really crazy route they could have done it in Israeli waters, and avoided something like that.
I don't know maritime law, but is boarding a ship in int'l waters like that even legal?
| 232 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 3:44:49pm |
re: #230 albusteve
that's where the park was
So what I'm hearing is that they shouldn't have landed the thing in a park.
| 234 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:45:28pm |
re: #228 Cato the Elder
See I didn't know that. It certainly helps that it was legal.
| 235 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 3:46:11pm |
re: #229 JasonA
Huh? It was debris from the craft's wind. Did they just use poor judgment landing there?
It was hovering over some trees at the time...video...
| 236 |
mr.JA Mon, May 31, 2010 3:46:12pm |
re: #225 MandyManners
No matter WHAT Israel could have done, those assholes were looking for a fight and some even martyrdom.
Well yeah, hence boarding with paintball guns was obviously not the right idea... Sometimes brute, overpowering force works best to shy everyone into submission. If they would have landed while a machine-gun fired rounds 2m over the 'protesters' heads, they probably would have been lying down, shivering of fear in no-time.
| 237 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 3:46:18pm |
re: #234 windsagio
See I didn't know that. It certainly helps that it was legal.
Not if the only people listening to that fact are here...
| 238 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:46:20pm |
re: #231 windsagio
Because it's a delicate situation, and they really do need to be aware of their image. Also, unless they were doing some really crazy route they could have done it in Israeli waters, and avoided something like that.
I don't know maritime law, but is boarding a ship in int'l waters like that even legal?
one of Israels problems is fulfill your image of her...time to drop the gloves and take care of business....beyond that whats the location of the boarding have to do with delicacies?
| 239 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 3:46:57pm |
re: #219 Gus 802
Yeah. Wasn't anything related to the Osprey. Looks like it was debris. Still, that doesn't help for the image.
Boeing's V-22 Osprey starting to show its mettle
“When people ask me about it,” Hogan said, “it’s King Kong out there.”He gave the example of the Osprey carrying President Barack Obama during his campaign from Ramadi, Iraq to Amman, Jordan and back to Al Asad in Iraq without refueling during the approximate 1,000-mile trip.
| 240 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:47:26pm |
re: #237 JasonA
Which goes to my main point. They're in a tight spot, and have to act extra-carefully.
And yes, it definitely can help.
| 241 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:48:22pm |
re: #239 The Shadow Do
it's a bad ass machine, full of all sorts of potential....plus it's cool when the fly over my bunkhouse
| 242 |
mr.JA Mon, May 31, 2010 3:48:54pm |
re: #228 Cato the Elder
That is a canard.
Boarding in international waters when the ship is bound for the blockaded port is perfectly legitimated by international naval warfare regulations.
Theoretically, you're completely right.
However, it would have saved israel SO MUCH bad press if they would have attacked in Israeli waters...
As we say in Dutch 'having the right on your side is not the same as getting the right on your side'...
| 243 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 3:49:46pm |
re: #231 windsagio
Because it's a delicate situation, and they really do need to be aware of their image. Also, unless they were doing some really crazy route they could have done it in Israeli waters, and avoided something like that.
I don't know maritime law, but is boarding a ship in int'l waters like that even legal?
Yes, it's apparently legal
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 244 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:50:27pm |
re: #240 windsagio
Which goes to my main point. They're in a tight spot, and have to act extra-carefully.
And yes, it definitely can help.
the IDF is not at all in a tight spot, if that's who you are referring to...they have the law and more importantly human righteousness on their side...plus gobs of firepower
| 245 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 3:52:44pm |
re: #228 Cato the Elder
That is a canard.
Boarding in international waters when the ship is bound for the blockaded port is perfectly legitimated by international naval warfare regulations.
Excellent point.
But leave him alone, he's very tired from last night...and anyways he's just repeating some drek that some other asshole previously said.
| 246 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:53:01pm |
re: #243 Walter L. Newton
Yes, it's apparently legal
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
It is a damn shame that one side has to worry about being legal, and one side just fires rockets at civilians as it pleases and still claims victim status. Discussing this is futile, it is what it is.
| 247 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 3:54:02pm |
re: #70 blueraven
Actually, they do honor our soldiers. At least I am seeing a small flag with a yellow ribbon and the words: In honor of the soldiers who have given their lives for our country.
This is underneath the search bar. Maybe they felt it too solemn an occasion to use their normally humorous examples.
yes ... I did correct myself (see #65), but they could have used the two "O's" in Google for helmets and that would have been tasteful.
| 248 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:55:03pm |
re: #236 mr.JA
Well yeah, hence boarding with paintball guns was obviously not the right idea... Sometimes brute, overpowering force works best to shy everyone into submission. If they would have landed while a machine-gun fired rounds 2m over the 'protesters' heads, they probably would have been lying down, shivering of fear in no-time.
Some shock and awe.
| 249 |
PhillyPretzel Mon, May 31, 2010 3:55:17pm |
re: #247 _RememberTonyC
Or they could have used the L for a flagpole.
| 251 |
PhillyPretzel Mon, May 31, 2010 3:57:30pm |
re: #247 _RememberTonyC
Dogpile has its flag flying. And its characters standing in silence.
| 252 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:57:31pm |
Ooh, forgot to mention it, we did a cool thing this morning, since none of the clients went to work.
We piled into the car and took 'em all up to the Willamette Nat'l Cemetary for a driveby. Only one of them had the vaguest idea what it was all about, tho'.
| 253 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 3:58:00pm |
re: #246 brookly red
It is a damn shame that one side has to worry about being legal, and one side just fires rockets at civilians as it pleases and still claims victim status. Discussing this is futile, it is what it is.
Now, now, we mustn't refer to the double standard which is automatically applied to Israel by almost the entire hypocritical fucking world. Instead, let's just keep pretending that Israel is being treated quite fairly and that any bad publicity is their own fault.
| 254 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 3:58:34pm |
re: #252 windsagio
Ooh, forgot to mention it, we did a cool thing this morning, since none of the clients went to work.
We piled into the car and took 'em all up to the Willamette Nat'l Cemetary for a driveby. Only one of them had the vaguest idea what it was all about, tho'.
Picking out future accommodations?
| 255 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 3:59:06pm |
Those porterhouses won't walk onto the grill themselves. bbl
| 256 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 3:59:24pm |
re: #254 Walter L. Newton
Since you ask, they'll likely be cremated >
Its the usual way, since none of them can afford gravesites.
| 257 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 3:59:24pm |
re: #253 Spare O'Lake
Now, now, we mustn't refer to the double standard which is automatically applied to Israel by almost the entire hypocritical fucking world. Instead, let's just keep pretending that Israel is being treated quite fairly and that any bad publicity is their own fault.
yes how stupid of me...
| 258 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 3:59:33pm |
if I were POTUS, I'd march into the UN, without notes and lay it out for all the radicals, Palis, Arabs, the fucking EU, Turks and anybody else listening and this is what I'd tell them...if Israel is attacked by anybody, the US will automatically and rapidly answer that threat with all the aggression we can muster to neutralize the aggressors....Israel will not fight alone outnumbered 10 to 1...no diplomacy, no cease fires...proceed at your dire risk
| 259 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 3:59:44pm |
re: #244 albusteve
the IDF is not at all in a tight spot, if that's who you are referring to...they have the law and more importantly human righteousness on their side...plus gobs of firepower
While the loss of life is unfortunate, the fact that the Israelis showed backbone in dealing with these "activists" will hopefully deter some others from future provocations. Sadly, Israel's enemies consider these deaths fine and dandy as long as they score propaganda points.
| 260 |
Cato the Elder Mon, May 31, 2010 3:59:53pm |
re: #255 MandyManners
Those porterhouses won't walk onto the grill themselves. bbl
You obviously need a porterhouse porter.
| 261 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:00:55pm |
re: #246 brookly red
It is a damn shame, but the world isn't just. And the gov't of Israel has a responsibility to minimize risk to their own people. Going all Rambo might be satisfying to us over here, but it doesn't add to the safety of the people of Israel. And isn't that the whole point?
| 262 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:01:30pm |
re: #259 _RememberTonyC
While the loss of life is unfortunate, the fact that the Israelis showed backbone in dealing with these "activists" will hopefully deter some others from future provocations. Sadly, Israel's enemies consider these deaths fine and dandy as long as they score propaganda points.
martyr meat...that will go on forever
| 263 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:03:18pm |
re: #261 windsagio
It is a damn shame, but the world isn't just. And the gov't of Israel has a responsibility to minimize risk to their own people. Going all Rambo might be satisfying to us over here, but it doesn't add to the safety of the people of Israel. And isn't that the whole point?
maybe, but just maybe not... weakness was never a good defense.
| 264 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 4:03:46pm |
re: #252 windsagio
Ooh, forgot to mention it, we did a cool thing this morning, since none of the clients went to work.
We piled into the car and took 'em all up to the Willamette Nat'l Cemetary for a driveby. Only one of them had the vaguest idea what it was all about, tho'.
Well done!
| 265 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:03:51pm |
re: #263 brookly red
It's not weakness.
Weakness would be letting them go into Gaza unchecked to avoid an incident.
| 266 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 4:04:25pm |
re: #258 albusteve
if I were POTUS, I'd march into the UN, without notes and lay it out for all the radicals, Palis, Arabs, the fucking EU, Turks and anybody else listening and this is what I'd tell them...if Israel is attacked by anybody, the US will automatically and rapidly answer that threat with all the aggression we can muster to neutralize the aggressors...Israel will not fight alone outnumbered 10 to 1...no diplomacy, no cease fires...proceed at your dire risk
Fat chance...
"Washington's unprecedented backing for a UN resolution for a nuclear-free Middle East that singles out Israel has both angered and deeply worried the Jewish state although officials are cagey about openly criticising their biggest ally."
[Link: politifi.com...]
| 267 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:04:27pm |
re: #261 windsagio
It is a damn shame, but the world isn't just. And the gov't of Israel has a responsibility to minimize risk to their own people. Going all Rambo might be satisfying to us over here, but it doesn't add to the safety of the people of Israel. And isn't that the whole point?
good lord, where do you come up with this stuff
| 268 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:04:59pm |
re: #258 albusteve
if I were POTUS, I'd march into the UN, without notes and lay it out for all the radicals, Palis, Arabs, the fucking EU, Turks and anybody else listening and this is what I'd tell them...if Israel is attacked by anybody, the US will automatically and rapidly answer that threat with all the aggression we can muster to neutralize the aggressors...Israel will not fight alone outnumbered 10 to 1...no diplomacy, no cease fires...proceed at your dire risk
I would love to see that, but in reality, even Presidents friendlier to Israel than Obama would not do that. Which is a shame, because it would be a useful move and probably save lives. But in the case of our current President, he sems even more concerned about how the muslim world perceives him than previous US leaders. And unless that position evolves somewhat, he will find that the American people who respect and support Israel will vote in such a way that the rest of the world's opinion of him becomes a moot point.
| 269 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:05:19pm |
re: #265 windsagio
It's not weakness.
Weakness would be letting them go into Gaza unchecked to avoid an incident.
true that, so what do you recommend?
| 270 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 4:05:41pm |
re: #261 windsagio
It is a damn shame, but the world isn't just. And the gov't of Israel has a responsibility to minimize risk to their own people. Going all Rambo might be satisfying to us over here, but it doesn't add to the safety of the people of Israel. And isn't that the whole point?
Well now, congratulations for finally expressing your concern for the people of Israel. I'm sure they appreciate your sincere advice.
| 271 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:06:05pm |
re: #269 brookly red
I think they handled the best they possibly could actually.
Making the best of a terrible situation, if you will.
| 272 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:06:10pm |
re: #266 Walter L. Newton
Fat chance...
"Washington's unprecedented backing for a UN resolution for a nuclear-free Middle East that singles out Israel has both angered and deeply worried the Jewish state although officials are cagey about openly criticising their biggest ally."
[Link: politifi.com...]
and I have not been elected yet...but sometimes you just have to cut to the chase
| 273 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:07:13pm |
re: #266 Walter L. Newton
Fat chance...
"Washington's unprecedented backing for a UN resolution for a nuclear-free Middle East that singles out Israel has both angered and deeply worried the Jewish state although officials are cagey about openly criticising their biggest ally."
[Link: politifi.com...]
I'm still shaking my head over that move. The US actually went ahead and helped Iran claim a victory by voting for that one sided NPT.
| 274 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:08:08pm |
re: #273 Gus 802
I'm still shaking my head over that move. The US actually went ahead and helped Iran claim a victory by voting for that one sided NPT.
indeed, BOs handling of all ME issues has been a disaster....he is stoking the embers
| 275 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 4:08:13pm |
re: #265 windsagio
It's not weakness.
Weakness would be letting them go into Gaza unchecked to avoid an incident.
Note to the IDF: Never go into a battle with freaking paintguns...
It could be a ship out at Sea With terrorists on board
Or a Coke party in Napa Valley with half of the biggest movie producers in Hollywood ..
You never pack paint guns..
Jeez...Go big or go home
| 276 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:09:47pm |
re: #275 HoosierHoops
I really disagree with this. They had to appear to not be the aggressor, knowing they'd be painted as such anyways.
~~~
It is funny that I'm the one arguing the most that the IDF knew what they were doing in that case, tho' ;)
| 277 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:09:52pm |
re: #274 albusteve
indeed, BOs handling of all ME issues has been a disaster...he is stoking the embers
He sure did stoke my embers with that move. I'm waiting to see what his response will be to this IDF news. If he sides with the appeasers I'm going to eject.
| 278 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 4:10:03pm |
re: #274 albusteve
indeed, BOs handling of all ME issues has been a disaster...he is stoking the embers
President Obama could put on a yamulke and dance a hora and you'd say the same thing about him, Steve.
| 279 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:10:10pm |
re: #271 windsagio
I think they handled the best they possibly could actually.
Making the best of a terrible situation, if you will.
well yes & no they did the best they could to stop this attempt but their political correctness will only be seen as weakness and encourage further aggression. Sooner or later you need to convince your enemies that it just is not worth it.
| 280 |
arethusa Mon, May 31, 2010 4:10:15pm |
re: #275 HoosierHoops
True, no paintguns, but also: it's a really, really good idea to use a video camera so the other side can't get off the hook with the usual spinning.
| 281 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:10:55pm |
re: #273 Gus 802
I'm still shaking my head over that move. The US actually went ahead and helped Iran claim a victory by voting for that one sided NPT.
it was a bad policy decision and an even worse political decision. it has the potential to cost the dems many Jewish votes and financial support. And Obama and the Dems need both.
| 282 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:11:23pm |
re: #277 Gus 802
He sure did stoke my embers with that move. I'm waiting to see what his response will be to this IDF news. If he sides with the appeasers I'm going to eject.
I have little patience for Pali symps myself...where else can he go wrong?
| 283 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:11:29pm |
re: #273 Gus 802
I'm still shaking my head over that move. The US actually went ahead and helped Iran claim a victory by voting for that one sided NPT.
weakness is what weakness does, we will all pay the price.
| 284 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 4:12:09pm |
re: #276 windsagio
I really disagree with this. They had to appear to not be the aggressor, knowing they'd be painted as such anyways.
~~~
It is funny that I'm the one arguing the most that the IDF knew what they were doing in that case, tho' ;)
Really? You are going to board a ship at 4am with paintguns from a helicopter?
Who the f*ck ordered that mission?
Greenpeace?
| 285 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:12:32pm |
re: #279 brookly red
We're a long ways away from appeasement, tho'. They acheived their goals with minimal loss of life, and I'm not at all convinced that more deaths would have stopped further such protests, unless we get to actually sinking ships...
And that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, then.
| 286 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:12:46pm |
re: #278 darthstar
President Obama could put on a yamulke and dance a hora and you'd say the same thing about him, Steve.
ooo!...what does that have to do with anything besides your dislike for me?....what did you call it earlier?..."thanks for your contribution to the discussion"?...that was you right?
| 287 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:12:53pm |
re: #278 darthstar
President Obama could put on a yamulke and dance a hora and you'd say the same thing about him, Steve.
what exactly are President Obama's successes in the middle east?
| 289 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:14:27pm |
re: #284 HoosierHoops
Hmm I think I get it.
One of the things soldiers have to do all the time is put themselves in undue risk for political purpsoes. Ask any American soldier stationed in S.Korea or Germany in the '60s. It sucks, but its part of what they do.
| 290 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 4:15:18pm |
re: #286 albusteve
ooo!...what does that have to do with anything besides your dislike for me?...what did you call it earlier?..."thanks for your contribution to the discussion"?...that was you right?
I liked your post about going into the UN and saying a big 'fuck you' to them...that was a great 'If I was president' moment.
And I don't dislike you. I just think your hatred of the current president makes you sound like an idiot at times.
| 291 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 4:15:27pm |
re: #288 windsagio
Wait, what?
LOL
I'm a bad bad boy...
Mayday
Mayday
They aren't buying the Bullshit!
*wink*
| 293 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:16:09pm |
re: #290 darthstar
I think he actually just really wants a fight today, for some reason.
| 294 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:16:23pm |
re: #285 windsagio
We're a long ways away from appeasement, tho'. They acheived their goals with minimal loss of life, and I'm not at all convinced that more deaths would have stopped further such protests, unless we get to actually sinking ships...
And that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, then.
first of all it is not we... and second of all they appeared weak. weak and now alone, not good. especially not good when nukes are involved...
| 295 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 4:16:31pm |
re: #278 darthstar
President Obama could put on a yamulke and dance a hora and you'd say the same thing about him, Steve.
And Israel could have invited all the flotilla to a yacht race and you would say they weren't bending over far enough.
| 296 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:16:52pm |
re: #287 _RememberTonyC
what exactly are President Obama's successes in the middle east?
they no longer fear us?
| 297 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:17:42pm |
re: #294 brookly red
'we' in the sense of this discussion. We're not talking about 'appeasment' here, because its not remotely at that point.
And agian, I trust the Israeli military's judgment over yours.
Especially when they seem to agree with me.
| 298 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:17:54pm |
re: #290 darthstar
I liked your post about going into the UN and saying a big 'fuck you' to them...that was a great 'If I was president' moment.
And I don't dislike you. I just think your hatred of the current president makes you sound like an idiot at times.
I don't hate BO...that's your personal myth, and do you have an answer to 287?
| 299 |
solomonpanting Mon, May 31, 2010 4:18:07pm |
Thank goodness for this "flotilla" incident. What it did was take what little heat there was off North Korea. I mean, all they did was sink a little ol' ship and kill a few people. No big deal, huh, WORLD?
| 300 |
A Man for all Seasons Mon, May 31, 2010 4:18:19pm |
| 302 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:18:25pm |
re: #278 darthstar
President Obama could put on a yamulke and dance a hora and you'd say the same thing about him, Steve.
Well, whatever opinion others might have of the president should not be a reason to ignore or minimize the effects of bad policy. Singling out Israel for the NPT last Friday is bad policy. Lifting sanctions on Russia to allow them to sell arms to Syria is bad policy.
| 303 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:18:51pm |
re: #293 windsagio
I think he actually just really wants a fight today, for some reason.
not really, just addressing the stupidity here, foremost, yours
| 304 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 4:19:58pm |
re: #298 albusteve
I don't hate BO...that's your personal myth, and do you have an answer to 287?
No, I don't...nothing that will satisfy people here today. So I'll forfeit this debate and leave you to your righteous righteousness in peace.
| 305 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:20:20pm |
| 306 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:21:15pm |
And Syria isn't going to think "wow that's really nice of the Americans, we can now buy arms from Russia without restrictions. We were wrong all along about the USA -- perhaps we can be friends after all. We love America."
Ain't gonna happen.
| 307 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:21:18pm |
re: #304 darthstar
No, I don't...nothing that will satisfy people here today. So I'll forfeit this debate and leave you to your righteous righteousness in peace.
just show me the beef...pretty simple
| 308 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:22:09pm |
Regarding the President and Israel, I do NOT think Mr Obama is against the Jews. But I think his policies with regard to the mideast conflict could be very dangerous for the Jewish state. I truly believe the President has a good heart, but a world view that is far too idealistic when it comes to the motivations and intentions of the people in Israel's neighborhood. In Israel, Mr Obama is not trusted by very many of the country's citizens. I think they see his policies as lacking the "street smarts" that are necessary in dealing with the geopolitics of the region. I have always felt that just as Gay people have "gaydar" in spotting other Gays who may not be "out," many Jews have something similar when it comes to sensing danger and reacting accordingly. And my "Jewish gaydar" long ago started picking up on a very bad vibe regarding our policies towards the region.
| 309 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 4:22:09pm |
Ok, anyways I'm out for food, it was interesting as always :D
If I were to make a closing statement, it would be that it boggles my mind that the same people that often talk about the 'best military in the world', etc etc, are all of a sudden second-guessing their judgment.
Its really easy for us in the safety of our homes to say that people halfway across the world should be more violent towards other people halfway across the world.
| 310 |
Stanghazi Mon, May 31, 2010 4:22:39pm |
re: #302 Gus 802
Well, whatever opinion others might have of the president should not be a reason to ignore or minimize the effects of bad policy. Singling out Israel for the NPT last Friday is bad policy. Lifting sanctions on Russia to allow them to sell arms to Syria is bad policy.
Wait! I thought I read this:
US President Barack Obama welcomed a nuclear non-proliferation deal reached Friday at a UN conference but "strongly" opposed singling out Israel over talks for a Mideast atomic weapon-free zone.
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]
| 311 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:24:34pm |
re: #310 Stanley Sea
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]
Right, "strongly opposed" but voted yes. If the US delegation was so strongly opposed then they should have voted no.
| 312 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:24:42pm |
re: #310 Stanley Sea
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]
We strongly oppose efforts to single out Israel, and will oppose actions that jeopardize Israel's national security."
let him put his money where his mouth is....his ME learning curve is vertical
| 313 |
Charles Johnson Mon, May 31, 2010 4:24:47pm |
Just banned a raving antisemite in the previous thread.
| 314 |
Stanghazi Mon, May 31, 2010 4:25:40pm |
re: #312 albusteve
We strongly oppose efforts to single out Israel, and will oppose actions that jeopardize Israel's national security."
let him put his money where his mouth is...his ME learning curve is vertical
That's what I can never understand. The strength in which you base things on assumptions.
| 315 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:25:48pm |
re: #311 Gus 802
Right, "strongly opposed" but voted yes. If the US delegation was so strongly opposed then they should have voted no.
correct again....trying to please everybody without taking a firm principled stand....if a dope like me can see this, certainly the bad guys can too
| 316 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:26:19pm |
Today is Memorial Day. We remember those family, friends or strangers that died so that we could be free. Free as long as our enemies also respect their sacrifices & fear the ones that may be offered up in the future. There is nothing to discuss, no nuances no subtle shades, no what if's... there is no but what if or well maybe. There is strength or there is not and reading some of these posts makes me concerned about our future.
| 317 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:26:45pm |
re: #315 albusteve
correct again...trying to please everybody without taking a firm principled stand...if a dope like me can see this, certainly the bad guys can too
actions speak louder than words .... "literally" in this case.
| 318 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:26:49pm |
re: #314 Stanley Sea
That's what I can never understand. The strength in which you base things on assumptions.
what assumption?
| 319 |
abolitionist Mon, May 31, 2010 4:26:52pm |
re: #299 solomonpanting
Thank goodness for this "flotilla" incident. What it did was take what little heat there was off North Korea. I mean, all they did was sink a little ol' ship and kill a few people. No big deal, huh, WORLD?
You left out the part about the sinking being a "fabrication" by S.Korea.
| 320 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 4:28:30pm |
re: #313 Charles
Just banned a raving antisemite in the previous thread.
Was that the Hieronymus Bosch guy?
| 321 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 4:28:41pm |
re: #308 _RememberTonyC
Regarding the President and Israel, I do NOT think Mr Obama is against the Jews. But I think his policies with regard to the mideast conflict could be very dangerous for the Jewish state. I truly believe the President has a good heart, but a world view that is far too idealistic when it comes to the motivations and intentions of the people in Israel's neighborhood. In Israel, Mr Obama is not trusted by very many of the country's citizens. I think they see his policies as lacking the "street smarts" that are necessary in dealing with the geopolitics of the region. I have always felt that just as Gay people have "gaydar" in spotting other Gays who may not be "out," many Jews have something similar when it comes to sensing danger and reacting accordingly. And my "Jewish gaydar" long ago started picking up on a very bad vibe regarding our policies towards the region.
Interesting thought. I think this will be a litmus test of sorts. Lefties just instinctively condemn Israel and ignore the video of the soldiers being attacked and maritime law regarding blockades. If Obama lets his lefty instincts run wild and condemns Israel it will be very telling. However, I don't expect that to happen and I even expect Obama to veto the impending resolution condemning Israel in the UN.
| 322 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 4:29:34pm |
M.J. Rosenberg calls this "Israel's Kent State"
What. A. Freaking. Asshat.
| 323 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:29:36pm |
re: #315 albusteve
correct again...trying to please everybody without taking a firm principled stand...if a dope like me can see this, certainly the bad guys can too
Even the BBC saw it:
Iran narrowly wins UN nuclear battle
Israel was the big loser in the nuclear review conference in New York - and Iran the big winner.
Egypt came out a high scorer.
The cause of nuclear non-proliferation was haltingly served in that the conference did reach a consensus, unlike the last time, and a number of watered-down measures were agreed to seek ways of strengthening the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). But overall, there was not the decisive strengthening that some states wanted.
Instead, governments rallied round one objective - the concept of a nuclear weapons-free zone in the Middle East. This was first called for 15 years ago but until now neglected...
and
Israel rejects Middle East nuclear talks plan
The US was among the nations who agreed the document, but President Barack Obama warned that he did not agree with Israel's treatment.
"We strongly oppose efforts to single out Israel, and will oppose actions that jeopardise Israel's national security," he said.
Again, all we head was that they opposed the singling out of Israel yet they went along with the agreement.
| 324 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:30:19pm |
re: #321 Killgore Trout
Interesting thought. I think this will be a litmus test of sorts. Lefties just instinctively condemn Israel and ignore the video of the soldiers being attacked and maritime law regarding blockades. If Obama lets his lefty instincts run wild and condemns Israel it will be very telling. However, I don't expect that to happen and I even expect Obama to veto the impending resolution condemning Israel in the UN.
I hope you're right.
| 325 |
solomonpanting Mon, May 31, 2010 4:30:58pm |
re: #319 abolitionist
You left out the part about the sinking being a "fabrication" by S.Korea.
Now there's a trick David Copperfield would be proud of.
| 326 |
Charles Johnson Mon, May 31, 2010 4:31:50pm |
| 328 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 4:35:31pm |
I also see the lefties (and even a few people here) who think this situation is going to damage Israel. It's not. The world condemned them for responding to daily rocket attacks, that's par for the course. What's more likely is another Intifada. Many, many Palestinians will die, blow themselves up, get shot, get imprisoned. All of Palestinian society, men women and children, will suffer greatly to kill a handfull of Israelis.
If we don't see another intifada I would interpret that to mean the Palestinians just aren't capable at this point to stage some sort of uprising. The last Gaza incursion and the blockade have weakened them considerably.
| 329 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 4:35:33pm |
| 331 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 4:36:22pm |
So many lizards have lost loved ones fighting for our country. This thread is a very emotional read for me.
I've had two cousins WWII (navy). They both returned. Their younger brother served (army) and died in Korea.
I'd like to mention my friend Mel, a marine. He just completed training and arrived at his first assignment aboard a ship (sorry Mel, I forget the name or type of ship) in Pearl Harbor just a few days before Dec 7. I'll never forget the events of that Sunday as you described them. You were on deck near the bows. Explosions everywhere with fire in the stern and beginning amidship. The order was given to abandon ship. Men running everywhere and many jumping. No boat or raft available for you that you could see so:
You were standing at the rail with crap flying everywhere around you and planes buzzing by and began removing your uniform piece by piece, carefully folding each as you did so and placing all in a neat stack near the rail with your shined shoes with rolled up socks inside neatly adjacent. Then, you jumped overboard. You were on many Pacific islands including New Guinea. I'm glad you made it back never wounded yet after some years I could see that the horrors and death and hardships you have seen does indeed leave one wounded. I could see it in you. I'm glad you were my friend. You've been gone 36 years now and I remember you though it was yesterday. You will always be my friend.
| 332 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:36:24pm |
What kind of peace activists use knives, clubs and fire from weapons stolen from soldiers...to attack soldiers to attack soldiers who board a ship in accordance with international law?,” he asked.
"They are not peace activists; They are not messengers of good will. They cynically use a humanitarian platform to send a message of hate and to implement violence," he added.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
| 333 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 4:36:40pm |
All the frothing Jew haters are out en masse at HuffPoo
| 334 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:36:58pm |
re: #322 Alouette
M.J. Rosenberg calls this "Israel's Kent State"
What. A. Freaking. Asshat.
Asshat deluxe. That's actually an insult to the victims of Kent State. The students at Kent State weren't wielding metals pipes, chains, knives, and bearing sling shots. They didn't attack the Ohio National Guard. It's a ludicrous comparison.
| 335 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 4:37:39pm |
re: #334 Gus 802
Asshat deluxe. That's actually an insult to the victims of Kent State. The students at Kent State weren't wielding metals pipes, chains, knives, and bearing sling shots. They didn't attack the Ohio National Guard. It's a ludicrous comparison.
Also, the IDF didn't open fire on their own people.
| 337 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 4:38:36pm |
This will never make the recommended list but here is the Koskidz discussing the video of the soldiers being attacked.....
BBC: Israeli commandos were attacked
The typical comment.....
I see victims of piracy... (30+ / 0-)
... repelling an attack by pirates.
| 338 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:40:38pm |
re: #335 Alouette
Also, the IDF didn't open fire on their own people.
Correct. This would be a better (or perhaps closer) comparison for the knucklehead:
Hamas police open fire at Fatah rally: six dead
By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
Published: 3:16PM GMT 12 Nov 2007
| 339 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:40:46pm |
re: #337 Killgore Trout
This will never make the recommended list but here is the Koskidz discussing the video of the soldiers being attacked...
BBC: Israeli commandos were attackedThe typical comment...
mostly children of the video game era....unrestrained idealism
| 340 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 4:41:28pm |
re: #313 Charles
Just banned a raving antisemite in the previous thread.
Thank you, maybe that will send a few less obvious ones scurrying a bit as well.
| 341 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 4:41:36pm |
| 342 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:42:45pm |
| 343 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 4:44:25pm |
re: #333 Alouette
All the frothing Jew haters are out en masse at HuffPoo
same as it ever was, same as it ever was...
I have to laugh when I read the right wing hates Jews.
| 344 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 4:45:46pm |
| 345 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 4:46:13pm |
re: #338 Gus 802
Correct. This would be a better (or perhaps closer) comparison for the knucklehead:
Hamas police open fire at Fatah rally: six dead
By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
Published: 3:16PM GMT 12 Nov 2007
It was clearly a disproportionate response....
| 346 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:47:02pm |
re: #343 brookly red
same as it ever was, same as it ever was...
I have to laugh when I read the right wing hates Jews.
I make a distinction between elements of the right ...
Right of Center (you and me are in there) appreciates the Jews.
Far Right (Buchanan, Paul, et al) does not.
| 347 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 4:48:13pm |
re: #343 brookly red
same as it ever was, same as it ever was...
I have to laugh when I read the right wing hates Jews.
Depends on which right. Buchanan and the Pauls are hardly fans.
The Jews have always been stuck between the black and the red.
For the far right, we are too into social justice and too willing to stand up for the little guy against the needs of moneyed folks. For the far left, we believe in God and we don't like their crazy economic theories or oppression of the little guy either.
| 348 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:48:20pm |
re: #337 Killgore Trout
This will never make the recommended list but here is the Koskidz discussing the video of the soldiers being attacked...
BBC: Israeli commandos were attackedThe typical comment...
Ha! I didn't expect to read what I did from the blogger.
| 349 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 4:48:38pm |
re: #346 _RememberTonyC
I make a distinction between elements of the right ...
Right of Center (you and me are in there) appreciates the Jews.
Far Right (Buchanan, Paul, et al) does not.
The crazy far right eventually links up with the crazy far left. Far out on the fringe.
| 350 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, May 31, 2010 4:49:15pm |
re: #331 Semper Fi
So many lizards have lost loved ones fighting for our country. This thread is a very emotional read for me.
I've had two cousins WWII (navy). They both returned. Their younger brother served (army) and died in Korea.
I'd like to mention my friend Mel, a marine. He just completed training and arrived at his first assignment aboard a ship (sorry Mel, I forget the name or type of ship) in Pearl Harbor just a few days before Dec 7. I'll never forget the events of that Sunday as you described them. You were on deck near the bows. Explosions everywhere with fire in the stern and beginning amidship. The order was given to abandon ship. Men running everywhere and many jumping. No boat or raft available for you that you could see so:
You were standing at the rail with crap flying everywhere around you and planes buzzing by and began removing your uniform piece by piece, carefully folding each as you did so and placing all in a neat stack near the rail with your shined shoes with rolled up socks inside neatly adjacent. Then, you jumped overboard. You were on many Pacific islands including New Guinea. I'm glad you made it back never wounded yet after some years I could see that the horrors and death and hardships you have seen does indeed leave one wounded. I could see it in you. I'm glad you were my friend. You've been gone 36 years now and I remember you though it was yesterday. You will always be my friend.
Thank you for that post.
| 351 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:49:31pm |
90F in ABQ....8% humidity and not a cloud in the sky...air so clear you can see details 60 miles away...it has not rained where I live in six months
| 352 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:50:06pm |
re: #321 Killgore Trout
Interesting thought. I think this will be a litmus test of sorts. Lefties just instinctively condemn Israel and ignore the video of the soldiers being attacked and maritime law regarding blockades. If Obama lets his lefty instincts run wild and condemns Israel it will be very telling. However, I don't expect that to happen and I even expect Obama to veto the impending resolution condemning Israel in the UN.
My cynical side believes he WILL veto the resolution, but for domestic political reasons first and foremost. American Jews and supporters of Israel will vote in November. Other "citizens of the world" from outside our borders will not.
| 353 |
Stanghazi Mon, May 31, 2010 4:50:10pm |
re: #348 Gus 802
Ha! I didn't expect to read what I did from the blogger.
I'm glad you read it. I just did too.
| 354 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 4:50:29pm |
re: #348 Gus 802
Ha! I didn't expect to read what I did from the blogger.
It's a little unexpected but the video is out there. They can't all ignore it. They prefer the edited Al Jazeera footage though.
| 355 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 4:50:33pm |
re: #351 albusteve
90F in ABQ...8% humidity and not a cloud in the sky...air so clear you can see details 60 miles away...it has not rained where I live in six months
Oh Jeez. You has to bring up GW.
| 356 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 4:51:20pm |
re: #349 Racer X
The crazy far right eventually links up with the crazy far left. Far out on the fringe.
alex jones being the prime example ...
| 357 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:51:22pm |
| 358 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:52:09pm |
re: #354 Killgore Trout
It's a little unexpected but the video is out there. They can't all ignore it. They prefer the edited Al Jazeera footage though.
Yeah. I think a lot of folks here would like the blog post itself and not the comments.
| 359 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 4:52:35pm |
I have to say, freshly picked sweet peas are really tasty!
| 360 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 4:53:21pm |
| 361 |
Stanghazi Mon, May 31, 2010 4:53:23pm |
re: #358 Gus 802
Yeah. I think a lot of folks here would like the blog post itself and not the comments.
As with MANY sites. Read the post, not the comments. Are you kidding me? Politico? Yahoo?
I write Politico weekly about what they let through. yeah yeah
| 362 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 4:55:35pm |
re: #359 Racer X
I have to say, freshly picked sweet peas are really tasty!
Lucky you! We've had a terrible spring here, my peas are growing but not setting pods yet.
| 363 |
Jerk Mon, May 31, 2010 4:55:46pm |
The top aggregated posts on Google News are pretty much all anti-Israel concerning the topic. Insane Russia Today is one of the top videos up this moment, and an Al-Jazerra one was pretty high up earlier. In fact, theirs consisted of a guy aboard the ship spewing nonsense about how someone was "raising the white flag". Yea, surrendering and trying to stab someone at the same time hardly ever works out.
| 364 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 4:56:50pm |
WTH?
Took me a while to realize the squealing was the seagulls.
| 365 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 4:57:31pm |
re: #351 albusteve
90F in ABQ...8% humidity and not a cloud in the sky...air so clear you can see details 60 miles away...it has not rained where I live in six months
Global Drying.
| 366 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 4:57:42pm |
re: #351 albusteve
90F in ABQ...8% humidity and not a cloud in the sky...air so clear you can see details 60 miles away...it has not rained where I live in six months
Amazing sight when it does rain. The most spectacular sight in nature I have ever witnessed was driving north on the 666 (devil's hwy) when suddenly a storm appeared sweeping along the east horizon. silvery sheets mixed with lightening flashes and moving very fast southward. The arroyos around me suddenly filled with rushing water forcing me to stop and watch for fear of getting washed away. The light was at a very odd angle highlighting everything. And suddenly it was gone and the water receded. It was just amazing and left me wondering where the hell my camera was.
| 367 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 4:58:18pm |
| 368 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 4:59:35pm |
re: #362 Killgore Trout
Lucky you! We've had a terrible spring here, my peas are growing but not setting pods yet.
Man we got tons of peas! Also zucchini, tomatoes, all kinds of stuff. The backyard garden is better than I thought. Definitely going to expand.
The composter is not working so well. Not sure what I am doing wrong. I think not enough green stuff went it (too much brown stuff).
| 369 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 5:00:53pm |
re: #366 The Shadow Do
Amazing sight when it does rain. The most spectacular sight in nature I have ever witnessed was driving north on the 666 (devil's hwy) when suddenly a storm appeared sweeping along the east horizon. silvery sheets mixed with lightening flashes and moving very fast southward. The arroyos around me suddenly filled with rushing water forcing me to stop and watch for fear of getting washed away. The light was at a very odd angle highlighting everything. And suddenly it was gone and the water receded. It was just amazing and left me wondering where the hell my camera was.
Stay away from arroyos during sudden spring/summer downpours... sort of a common occurrence out west... Darwin at work... thins out the tourist who shouldn't be traipsing around without help.
| 370 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 5:01:46pm |
The Rockies blew San Fran out of the water today... woop.
| 371 |
wrenchwench Mon, May 31, 2010 5:02:12pm |
re: #368 Racer X
Man we got tons of peas! Also zucchini, tomatoes, all kinds of stuff. The backyard garden is better than I thought. Definitely going to expand.
The composter is not working so well. Not sure what I am doing wrong. I think not enough green stuff went it (too much brown stuff).
The contents should be kept damp. Also they make "compost starter" if you think it needs some bacterial action, but usually just keeping it damp will get what's already in there working.
| 372 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 5:03:37pm |
re: #370 Walter L. Newton
The annotated Lost Finale is up on Hulu if you're interested.
| 373 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:03:55pm |
re: #366 The Shadow Do
Amazing sight when it does rain. The most spectacular sight in nature I have ever witnessed was driving north on the 666 (devil's hwy) when suddenly a storm appeared sweeping along the east horizon. silvery sheets mixed with lightening flashes and moving very fast southward. The arroyos around me suddenly filled with rushing water forcing me to stop and watch for fear of getting washed away. The light was at a very odd angle highlighting everything. And suddenly it was gone and the water receded. It was just amazing and left me wondering where the hell my camera was.
maybe it was all a dream?...anyhoo it can rain as hard here as any storm I recall up in the mid west...perfectly violent wind, horizontal rain and flash flooding...but that was then, it's just a memory now...we will get our summer monsoons later
| 374 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 5:04:08pm |
| 375 |
reine.de.tout Mon, May 31, 2010 5:04:17pm |
re: #359 Racer X
I have to say, freshly picked sweet peas are really tasty!
Freshly picked anything is much tastier than what you buy in the store.
| 376 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 5:04:33pm |
re: #371 wrenchwench
The contents should be kept damp. Also they make "compost starter" if you think it needs some bacterial action, but usually just keeping it damp will get what's already in there working.
I dumped in some compost from a bag we had here. It seems like it is either too wet or too dry.
The fun part is I found out L.A. City gives away compost for free. So the backyard thing is ornamental.
| 377 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:04:54pm |
re: #368 Racer X
Man we got tons of peas! Also zucchini, tomatoes, all kinds of stuff. The backyard garden is better than I thought. Definitely going to expand.
The composter is not working so well. Not sure what I am doing wrong. I think not enough green stuff went it (too much brown stuff).
throw in a couple cans of sugary soda pop....I'm tellin ya
| 378 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 5:05:27pm |
re: #368 Racer X
Man we got tons of peas! Also zucchini, tomatoes, all kinds of stuff. The backyard garden is better than I thought. Definitely going to expand.
The composter is not working so well. Not sure what I am doing wrong. I think not enough green stuff went it (too much brown stuff).
Possibly. Sometimes it takes a while to get going. If the bin dries out or gets too wet it can be a problem sometimes. Be patient and turn it regularly and you'll figure it out.
| 380 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, May 31, 2010 5:06:05pm |
re: #372 Killgore Trout
The annotated Lost Finale is up on Hulu if you're interested.
That's nice, I see, it's an official ABC annotated version, good, sometimes the annotations add info... producers say that those annotations are considered cannon.
Bookmarked for future viewing.
| 381 |
wrenchwench Mon, May 31, 2010 5:06:08pm |
re: #376 Racer X
I dumped in some compost from a bag we had here. It seems like it is either too wet or too dry.
The fun part is I found out L.A. City gives away compost for free. So the backyard thing is ornamental.
It's also a good place for all your yard debris--so you don't have to send it to the city to give it away to someone else!
| 382 |
Macha Mon, May 31, 2010 5:06:24pm |
Remembering all those in my family who fought in wars under the Stars and Stripes. My dad, who fought in France in WWI in the trenches. My cousins, one who tried to enlist but was rejected in WWII because of his eyesight. Later they drafted him and he fought in the Pacific on one of the islands. Another cousin, fought in Viet Nam. He came home with a silver star, a bronze star and a lifetime battle with PTSD. He also happened to be gay. Bet the guys he was fighting with didn't give a damn when they were in a fire fight. My sons who served in the Navy during the Gulf war.
To all those who served, and to all those serving today all over the world I send my most heartfelt gratitude for what you did and are willing to do. May I always remember until I am no more.
| 383 |
Sergeant Major Mon, May 31, 2010 5:06:59pm |
To the Soldiers I lost Capt. Jacobsen 21 Dec 2004, Sgt. Johnson 21 DEC 2004, and Spc. Gertson 19 Feb 2005... there isn't a day that you are not thought of...today just makes it harder...
| 384 |
Stanghazi Mon, May 31, 2010 5:08:25pm |
| 385 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 5:13:26pm |
re: #366 The Shadow Do
Amazing sight when it does rain. The most spectacular sight in nature I have ever witnessed was driving north on the 666 (devil's hwy) when suddenly a storm appeared sweeping along the east horizon. silvery sheets mixed with lightening flashes and moving very fast southward. The arroyos around me suddenly filled with rushing water forcing me to stop and watch for fear of getting washed away. The light was at a very odd angle highlighting everything. And suddenly it was gone and the water receded. It was just amazing and left me wondering where the hell my camera was.
I've had two driving experiences through areas where nature was really putting on show. Both times I never thought of the camera. Both time, when I did think camera, it was there beside me. Appears I'm a real spectator.
| 386 |
Macha Mon, May 31, 2010 5:16:32pm |
re: #378 Killgore Trout
Possibly. Sometimes it takes a while to get going. If the bin dries out or gets too wet it can be a problem sometimes. Be patient and turn it regularly and you'll figure it out.
And if you know anyone who keeps pigeons, ask them for some droppings. Pigeon poop is one of the best compost additives there is.
| 387 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:17:36pm |
re: #385 Semper Fi
I've had two driving experiences through areas where nature was really putting on show. Both times I never thought of the camera. Both time, when I did think camera, it was there beside me. Appears I'm a real spectator.
memories will work...a couple of months ago I went over to Tucson, and all down the NM bootheel and into SE AZ there were sheets of water covering the desert...arroyos draining and water everywhere from 3 days of thunderstorms, snow on every mountain above 8k feet, even across the border into old Mexico....very rare to see the desert like that
| 388 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:21:23pm |
re: #386 Macha
And if you know anyone who keeps pigeons, ask them for some droppings. Pigeon poop is one of the best compost additives there is.
that sounds easy!
pigeon poop!....get yer pigeon poop here!
jus riffin
| 389 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 5:22:16pm |
re: #387 albusteve
memories will work...a couple of months ago I went over to Tucson, and all down the NM bootheel and into SE AZ there were sheets of water covering the desert...arroyos draining and water everywhere from 3 days of thunderstorms, snow on every mountain above 8k feet, even across the border into old Mexico...very rare to see the desert like that
I envy your drive. It must have been beautiful and with snow capped mountains around the desert takes on a whole new look.
| 390 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, May 31, 2010 5:23:03pm |
re: #326 Charles
Thanks for leaving the post up.
| 391 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 5:23:07pm |
Something to dissect. Hit the web about 11 minutes ago. State Department comments on the Gaza flotilla:
Free Gaza Flotilla
Philip J. Crowley
Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Public Affairs
Washington, DC
May 31, 2010
The United States deeply regrets the tragic loss of life and injuries suffered among those involved in the incident today aboard the Gaza-bound ships. We are working to ascertain the facts, and expect that the Israeli government will conduct a full and credible investigation.
The United States remains deeply concerned by the suffering of civilians in Gaza. We will continue to engage the Israelis on a daily basis to expand the scope and type of goods allowed into Gaza to address the full range of the population’s humanitarian and recovery needs. We will continue to work closely with the Government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, along with international NGOs and the UN, to provide adequate access for humanitarian goods, including reconstruction materials, through the border crossings, while bearing in mind the Government of Israel’s legitimate security concerns. However, Hamas’ interference with international assistance shipments and work of nongovernmental organizations, and its use and endorsement of violence, complicates efforts in Gaza. Mechanisms exist for the transfer of humanitarian assistance to Gaza by governments and groups that wish to do so. These mechanisms should be used for the benefit of all those in Gaza.
Ultimately, this incident underscores the need to move ahead quickly with negotiations that can lead to a comprehensive peace in the region.
| 392 |
Bear Mon, May 31, 2010 5:23:32pm |
All those white headstones with small flag today. What a stirring but so sad sight.
I must admit it brings tears to these eyes. My parents are in the SF National as Dad was in WW1. I wonder where those GreatGreatsomthing Grandfathers are buried. They were in the Continental Army, one was at Yorktown.
| 393 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:25:15pm |
re: #389 Semper Fi
I envy your drive. It must have been beautiful and with snow capped mountains around the desert takes on a whole new look.
it was for me, I'd never seen such a thing...barreling down back roads and HOLD IT!....water gushing down the arroyos like crazy...turn around and go back....18inches of water at that speed can overturn a car...the SW deserts are awesome
| 394 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 5:26:14pm |
Remarks from the US Mission to the UN:
Remarks by Ambassador Alejandro Wolff, Deputy Permanent U.S. Representative to the United Nations, at an Emergency Session of the Security Council
Alejandro Wolff
Deputy Permanent Representative to the United Nations
U.S. Mission to the United Nations
New York, NY
May 31, 2010
AS DELIVERED
Thank you, Mr. President and thank you, Assistant Secretary-General Fernandez-Taranco.
The United States is deeply disturbed by the recent violence and regrets the tragic loss of life and injuries suffered among those involved in the incident last night aboard the Gaza-bound ships. We are working to ascertain the facts. We expect a credible and transparent investigation and strongly urge the Israeli government to investigate the incident fully.
As I stated in the Chamber in December 2008, when we were confronted by a similar situation, mechanisms exist for the transfer of humanitarian assistance to Gaza by member states and groups that want to do so. These non-provocative and non-confrontational mechanisms should be the ones used for the benefit of all those in Gaza. Direct delivery by sea is neither appropriate nor responsible, and certainly not effective, under the circumstances.
The United States remains deeply concerned by the suffering of civilians in Gaza, and the deterioration of the situation there, including the humanitarian and human rights situation. We continue to believe the situation is unsustainable and is not in the interests of any of those concerned. We will continue to engage the Israelis on a daily basis to expand the scope and type of goods allowed into Gaza to address the full range of the population’s humanitarian and recovery needs. Hamas’ interference with international assistance shipments and the work of nongovernmental organizations complicates efforts in Gaza. Its continued arms smuggling and commitment to terrorism undermines security and prosperity for Palestinians and Israelis alike.
We will continue to work closely with the Government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, along with international NGOs and the UN, to provide adequate access for humanitarian goods, including reconstruction materials, through the border crossings, while bearing in mind the Government of Israel’s legitimate security concerns.
Ultimately, this incident underscores the need to move ahead quickly with negotiations that can lead to a comprehensive peace in the region. The only viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an agreement, negotiated between the parties, that ends the occupation that began in 1967 and fulfills the aspirations of both parties for independent homelands through two states for two peoples, Israel and an independent, contiguous, and viable state of Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. We call again on our international partners – both inside and outside this Council – to promote an atmosphere of cooperation between the parties and throughout the entire region.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Emphasis mine.
| 395 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 5:26:14pm |
re: #391 Gus 802
T.R. coined the phrase "weasel words"
| 396 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 5:27:19pm |
re: #395 The Shadow Do
T.R. coined the phrase "weasel words"
Yeah. This one has me scratching my head... "a full and credible investigation." Credible? What's that about?
| 397 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:29:00pm |
re: #396 Gus 802
Yeah. This one has me scratching my head... "a full and credible investigation." Credible? What's that about?
more time, more money, more worthless nuance...it's obvious how it went down, stalling only serves to soften you position....I hate the UN
| 398 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 5:29:55pm |
re: #397 albusteve
more time, more money, more worthless nuance...it's obvious how it went down, stalling only serves to soften you position...I hate the UN
Right. I don't know. I think using the word credible is kind of insulting.
| 399 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:30:34pm |
re: #398 Gus 802
Right. I don't know. I think using the word credible is kind of insulting.
I do too...it's a set up
| 401 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 5:32:14pm |
re: #393 albusteve
it was for me, I'd never seen such a thing...barreling down back roads and HOLD IT!...water gushing down the arroyos like crazy...turn around and go back...18inches of water at that speed can overturn a car...the SW deserts are awesome
I was in a Greyhound bus from El Paso to Albuquerque when a flow of water as you described went across the highway. Driver stopped and waited for it to subside before continuing. I enjoyed the respite as it gave me an opportunity to look around. The air was so clear the nearby hills appeared arm length away.
| 402 |
jaunte Mon, May 31, 2010 5:32:19pm |
re: #396 Gus 802
See also the disparate emotional weight of:
"the suffering of civilians in Gaza"
vs.
"the Government of Israel’s legitimate security concerns."
| 403 |
Renaissance_Man Mon, May 31, 2010 5:33:31pm |
re: #398 Gus 802
Right. I don't know. I think using the word credible is kind of insulting.
I don't know. I mean, yes, you could read it that way if inclined to take it that way. I think it could be taken as a pre-emptive statement that Israel's investigation is to be considered truthful.
| 404 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 5:33:32pm |
re: #394 Gus 802
Remarks from the US Mission to the UN:
Remarks by Ambassador Alejandro Wolff, Deputy Permanent U.S. Representative to the United Nations, at an Emergency Session of the Security Council
Alejandro Wolff
Deputy Permanent Representative to the United Nations
U.S. Mission to the United Nations
New York, NY
May 31, 2010
AS DELIVERED
Emphasis mine.
all in all, it was a pretty tame statement. But as balanced as it was, do you get the feeling that it was only THAT balanced because of the video evidence provided by the Israelis? And if there had NOT been video evidence, would the US govt have piled on with those who condemned Israel? I'm just asking, because I really don't know. It seems that our govt may be acting a bit more cautiously towards Israel these days because of domestic politics. The real measure of this administration's intentions towards Israel won't really be known until (if?) Obama wins in 2012. Because if the POTUS is unencumbered by domestic political considerations, he will feel free to act on his deepest convictions (whatever they may be) in order to burnish his "legacy" (whatever IT may be).
| 405 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 5:34:17pm |
re: #398 Gus 802
I don't think so. Credibility comes from things like video evidence recorded by the Israelis and the "Peace Protesters". Much of the film we've seen so far was shot by the Israelis. The "Peace Protesters" filmed the attacks too and now the Israelis have their cameras.
| 406 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 5:35:20pm |
re: #405 Killgore Trout
I don't think so. Credibility comes from things like video evidence recorded by the Israelis and the "Peace Protesters". Much of the film we've seen so far was shot by the Israelis. The "Peace Protesters" filmed the attacks too and now the Israelis have their cameras.
I can guarantee you that the "Peace Protesters" filmed themselves planning and preparing for the ambush.
| 407 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 5:35:23pm |
re: #402 jaunte
See also the disparate emotional weight of:
"the suffering of civilians in Gaza"
vs.
"the Government of Israel’s legitimate security concerns."
"the suffering of civilians in Gaza" and "the Government of Israel's legitimate security concerns" by insane coincidence, have the same cause: HAMAS.
| 408 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:37:39pm |
re: #401 Semper Fi
I was in a Greyhound bus from El Paso to Albuquerque when a flow of water as you described went across the highway. Driver stopped and waited for it to subside before continuing. I enjoyed the respite as it gave me an opportunity to look around. The air was so clear the nearby hills appeared arm length away.
heh...that illusion has cost many a hardship and even lives, back in older times...what appears to be a days hike is actually 4-5 days away...I just don't know how people came out here and survived...some very intriguing history tho and I'm fascinated with it, especially the water aspect....where was it? and how did people find it?....I know many of the answers now but I've done a lot of research....even now I would not even consider going down there without a stash of water in my trunk....couple of days worth, just in case
| 409 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, May 31, 2010 5:38:07pm |
re: #406 Killgore Trout
I can guarantee you that the "Peace Protesters" filmed themselves planning and preparing for the ambush.
they may be activists, but they do not appear to be "peaceful." But we do know they're stupid or they'd never have tried this. And I believe you are right that they may have recorded some of their preparation on video. And if they did, you know the haters will say the Israelis doctored the video.
| 410 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:39:15pm |
re: #406 Killgore Trout
I can guarantee you that the "Peace Protesters" filmed themselves planning and preparing for the ambush.
of course, their last testament before their brave sacrifice
| 411 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 5:39:26pm |
Beach Day #3 in a row for the boys...I documented our trip on the flip-cam...music by Phil Lesh & Friends.
| 412 |
Gus Mon, May 31, 2010 5:39:29pm |
re: #405 Killgore Trout
I don't think so. Credibility comes from things like video evidence recorded by the Israelis and the "Peace Protesters". Much of the film we've seen so far was shot by the Israelis. The "Peace Protesters" filmed the attacks too and now the Israelis have their cameras.
Firefox crashed here.
Well, if one is to request an investigation or await an investigation from an ally nation then one would expect it to be credible. There is no need for the adjective, credible, since one would expect it to be as such.
| 413 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 5:40:02pm |
re: #398 Gus 802
Right. I don't know. I think using the word credible is kind of insulting.
I'm hoping 'credible' in this case means, ultimately deemed 'credible' by the US thus, end of incident.
| 414 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:40:07pm |
re: #407 Alouette
"the suffering of civilians in Gaza" and "the Government of Israel's legitimate security concerns" by insane coincidence, have the same cause: HAMAS.
DUH!....what a novel notion that is!....HELLO?
| 415 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, May 31, 2010 5:41:22pm |
re: #408 albusteve
I picked up a hobo south of Colorado Springs and drove him to Albuq. once.
You are welcome.
| 416 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, May 31, 2010 5:42:58pm |
re: #411 darthstar
Only halfway through... but it is making me really happy. Thanks.
| 417 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:43:14pm |
re: #415 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I picked up a hobo south of Colorado Springs and drove him to Albuq. once.
You are welcome.
you should be so lucky to be a hobo by choice...I'm partway there myself and damned proud of it....nothing is everything, embrace it
| 418 |
Renaissance_Man Mon, May 31, 2010 5:44:04pm |
re: #412 Gus 802
Firefox crashed here.
Well, if one is to request an investigation or await an investigation from an ally nation then one would expect it to be credible. There is no need for the adjective, credible, since one would expect it to be as such.
Indeed so, but this statement is directed to an audience that includes some whose first response would be to call Israel's investigation a lie. Adding that word could be seen as a pre-emptive statement rejecting that argument.
| 419 |
Stanghazi Mon, May 31, 2010 5:44:12pm |
re: #411 darthstar
Beach Day #3 in a row for the boys...I documented our trip on the flip-cam...music by Phil Lesh & Friends.
[Video]
EXCELLENT!
| 420 |
What, me worry? Mon, May 31, 2010 5:44:34pm |
re: #407 Alouette
"the suffering of civilians in Gaza" and "the Government of Israel's legitimate security concerns" by insane coincidence, have the same cause: HAMAS.
In the end, there will be an investigation and Israel will be found completely innocent of any illegal charge and within their rights to defend their land. Just like in Jenin.
| 421 |
Sergeant Major Mon, May 31, 2010 5:45:31pm |
Here’s a story I used to tell my soldiers when I was a Drill Sergeant: There was a patrol of Rangers who were ambushed by the NVA and one of the soldiers was critically wounded as they were retreating. Once the unit had regrouped they realized that they were missing a Ranger. One of the Rangers immediately went to find his friend when the Platoon leader ordered him to stay put, the Ranger disobeying the direct order went out in search of his friend. After a couple of hours the Ranger returned carrying his friend who had died during the return. The Platoon leader looked at his Soldier who had been mortally wounded while rescuing his friend and said I told you not to go and now look I’ve lost both of you...it just wasn’t worth it. The Ranger just looked back and said; yes it was because when I got to him he told me I knew you would come back.
The bond between Soldiers can only be experienced..never explained
| 422 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, May 31, 2010 5:47:02pm |
re: #417 albusteve
Oh, he was a self described real life hobo. Butch the plumber/cowboy. We had a great conversation, over many, many an hour.
Actually, picked him up in Walsenburg...
The first (only) real hobo I ever met.
| 423 |
reine.de.tout Mon, May 31, 2010 5:47:37pm |
re: #403 Renaissance_Man
I don't know. I mean, yes, you could read it that way if inclined to take it that way. I think it could be taken as a pre-emptive statement that Israel's investigation is to be considered truthful.
That's how I saw it.
To my admittedly untrained eye:
I didn't read either of those statements as being insulting to Israel at all - standard diplomatic mumbo-jumbo about being concerned about the "suffering" in Gaza, but both statements included a clear recognition of Israel's right to defend herself as well as the fact that appropriate and legal channels exist and should be used when delivering aid.
I would like to see stronger statements in support of Israel, but as of today - that may be the best that is diplomatically possible right now.
| 424 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:47:47pm |
re: #421 Sergeant Major
Here’s a story I used to tell my soldiers when I was a Drill Sergeant: There was a patrol of Rangers who were ambushed by the NVA and one of the soldiers was critically wounded as they were retreating. Once the unit had regrouped they realized that they were missing a Ranger. One of the Rangers immediately went to find his friend when the Platoon leader ordered him to stay put, the Ranger disobeying the direct order went out in search of his friend. After a couple of hours the Ranger returned carrying his friend who had died during the return. The Platoon leader looked at his Soldier who had been mortally wounded while rescuing his friend and said I told you not to go and now look I’ve lost both of you...it just wasn’t worth it. The Ranger just looked back and said; yes it was because when I got to him he told me I knew you would come back.
The bond between Soldiers can only be experienced..never explained
damn bro
| 425 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 5:48:06pm |
re: #408 albusteve
heh...that illusion has cost many a hardship and even lives, back in older times...what appears to be a days hike is actually 4-5 days away...I just don't know how people came out here and survived...some very intriguing history tho and I'm fascinated with it, especially the water aspect...where was it? and how did people find it?...I know many of the answers now but I've done a lot of research...even now I would not even consider going down there without a stash of water in my trunk...couple of days worth, just in case
I agree. Always be prepared just in case. Occasionally, driving the southwest desert (freeway) I see off ramps where name of road is, ----- Well. I presume these names were originally that of the actual old well used a hundred or more years.
| 426 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 5:48:55pm |
re: #421 Sergeant Major
Updinged for making me feel like less of a man.
| 427 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:49:48pm |
re: #422 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Oh, he was a self described real life hobo. Butch the plumber/cowboy. We had a great conversation, over many, many an hour.
Actually, picked him up in Walsenburg...
The first (only) real hobo I ever met.
consider yourself fortunate...NM attracts wayward people like that for some reason...I'm one myself to a certain extent
| 428 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 5:52:10pm |
re: #422 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Oh, he was a self described real life hobo. Butch the plumber/cowboy. We had a great conversation, over many, many an hour.
Actually, picked him up in Walsenburg...
The first (only) real hobo I ever met.
Travelling around from town to town,
Sometimes I think I'll settle down,
But I know I'd hunger to be free,
A drifter's the only life for me.
- The Littlest Hobo theme song
A drifter, the world is my friend,
I'm travelling, along the road without end.
| 429 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 5:52:38pm |
re: #420 marjoriemoon
In the end, there will be an investigation and Israel will be found completely innocent of any illegal charge and within their rights to defend their land. Just like in Jenin.
I wish I could believe that. My fear is that Israel-haters will have gotten better at stacking the deck and will find someway to find Israel guilty. They might do that simply to protect their own "international reputations", since these days to exonerate Israel of bogus charges is to risk being called a "fascist" or a "jew-lover".
| 430 |
Sergeant Major Mon, May 31, 2010 5:53:11pm |
re: #426 JasonA
Not my intent....thank you everyone for your thoughts and prayers for all of our men and women who serve and have served.
| 432 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 5:54:01pm |
re: #428 Spare O'Lake
Travelling around from town to town,
Sometimes I think I'll settle down,
But I know I'd hunger to be free,
A drifter's the only life for me.
A drifter, the world is my friend,
I'm travelling, along the road without end.
- The Littlest Hobo theme song
PIMF
| 433 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, May 31, 2010 5:54:13pm |
re: #420 marjoriemoon
In the end, there will be an investigation and Israel will be found completely innocent of any illegal charge and within their rights to defend their land. Just like in Jenin.
Too late, the damage is already done.
| 434 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:54:32pm |
re: #425 Semper Fi
I agree. Always be prepared just in case. Occasionally, driving the southwest desert (freeway) I see off ramps where name of road is, --- Well. I presume these names were originally that of the actual old well used a hundred or more years.
it's dryer now than it was back then...many holes have dried up for that reason or from irrigation...and of course over in Texas for example, deep well drilling at the turn of the century transformed arid desert into wheat fields....time marches on....what used to be no mans land is now full of towns, even cities, farms, ranches and the good life, all coming up from the Ogalala Aquifer, which itself is now drying up....water is gonna be the next oil
| 435 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 5:57:00pm |
re: #429 Dark_Falcon
I wish I could believe that. My fear is that Israel-haters will have gotten better at stacking the deck and will find someway to find Israel guilty. They might do that simply to protect their own "international reputations", since these days to exonerate Israel of bogus charges is to risk being called a "fascist" or a "jew-lover".
fine...lock and load...if you want to exclude all reason then bring it on...personally I'm sick to death of the whole ME scam
| 436 |
abolitionist Mon, May 31, 2010 5:58:34pm |
Portrait of IHH
1. Prominent among the coalition organizations participating in the aid flotilla scheduled to arrive in the Gaza Strip in the coming days is the Turkish IHH (Insani Yardim Vakfi, IHH, “humanitarian relief fund”). It is a radical Islamic organization which was established in 1992 and formally registered in Istanbul in 1995. It is headed by Bülent Yildirim.
[snip]
Portrait of IHH
Additional information
Photo of Bülent Yildirim addressing the "activists".
| 437 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:00:28pm |
re: #429 Dark_Falcon
I wish I could believe that. My fear is that Israel-haters will have gotten better at stacking the deck and will find someway to find Israel guilty. They might do that simply to protect their own "international reputations", since these days to exonerate Israel of bogus charges is to risk being called a "fascist" or a "jew-lover".
I'm a "jew-lover"...my father in law and several very close friends are examples of people I happen to love who happen to be jewish. You could call me a jew-lover all day and I wouldn't take offense.
| 438 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 6:02:24pm |
the whole damned ME controversy is about money, prestige and religious fervor...there is nothing in there about tolerance or multiculturalism and anybody that thinks so is naive...when it blows up for Israel, which it surely will, I hope the US is on the right side of history...I have my doubts with this admin...a major shooting war is cooking
| 439 |
Altermite Mon, May 31, 2010 6:02:26pm |
[Link: www2.timesdispatch.com...]
UVA "In the name of Thomas Jefferson, we abjure thee, Ken Cuccinelli! Back to the science denialist pit in which you were spawned!"*
slight paraphrase of actual quote.
| 440 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 6:04:01pm |
re: #437 darthstar
I'm a "jew-lover"...my father in law and several very close friends are examples of people I happen to love who happen to be jewish. You could call me a jew-lover all day and I wouldn't take offense.
don't worry about names.. if you follow Jesus, yes you are a Jew lover.
| 441 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 6:04:58pm |
re: #437 darthstar
I'm a "jew-lover"...my father in law and several very close friends are examples of people I happen to love who happen to be jewish. You could call me a jew-lover all day and I wouldn't take offense.
That's very nice, but why wouldn't you take offence at a slur that is obviously meant as an insult?
| 442 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:05:50pm |
re: #437 darthstar
I'm a "jew-lover"...my father in law and several very close friends are examples of people I happen to love who happen to be jewish. You could call me a jew-lover all day and I wouldn't take offense.
Yes, but you're a man willing to accept being shunned by assholes in order to stand on principle. Most politicians won't do that: To attain popularity they'll go along with the crowd. How many times have we seen that and condemned it here on LGF. I fear those "judging" Israel will be lesser people than you, darthstar.
| 443 |
SteveMcG Mon, May 31, 2010 6:07:44pm |
How messed up is it that the History Channel was doing a "Pawn Star" marathon on Memorial Day?
| 444 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:08:32pm |
re: #436 abolitionist
Portrait of IHH
Additional informationPhoto of Bülent Yildirim addressing the "activists".
Good find. I read on CNN today that they are also in tight with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Clearly, the IHH is an Islamist organization. It's "activists" were simply living out their oft stated desire to attack Israelis and murder them.
| 445 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 6:09:10pm |
re: #440 brookly red
don't worry about names.. if you follow Jesus, yes you are a Jew lover.
personally it's the women that make me a Jew lover...shallow?
| 446 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 6:10:21pm |
re: #438 albusteve
the whole damned ME controversy is about money, prestige and religious fervor...there is nothing in there about tolerance or multiculturalism and anybody that thinks so is naive...when it blows up for Israel, which it surely will, I hope the US is on the right side of history...I have my doubts with this admin...a major shooting war is cooking
Jews hope and pray for peace. It is possible.
| 447 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:12:01pm |
re: #440 brookly red
don't worry about names.. if you follow Jesus, yes you are a Jew lover.
I don't believe in Jesus, to be honest. He may have been a prophet who walked the earth just as other prophets did, but I don't buy the whole immaculate conception/son of god thing. I do think the story about his trial and crucifixion is evidence of getting a bad rap, though.
| 448 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 6:12:02pm |
if somebody walked up to me and called me Jewboy!....I'd take it as a high compliment....beyond that I'm willing to brawl...it feels good to knock the shit out of somebody that had it coming
| 449 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 6:13:09pm |
re: #446 Spare O'Lake
Jews hope and pray for peace. It is possible.
peace will come....but it will be decided by the body count, I'm afraid
| 450 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:14:10pm |
re: #441 Spare O'Lake
That's very nice, but why wouldn't you take offence at a slur that is obviously meant as an insult?
Sticks and stones, motherfucker, sticks and stones. If I was offended every time someone called me some kind of slur, I'd spend a lot of time being offended.
| 452 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:14:53pm |
re: #449 albusteve
peace will come...but it will be decided by the body count, I'm afraid
There you go being obtuse again. Killing won't bring peace...regardless of which side is doing the killing.
| 453 |
What, me worry? Mon, May 31, 2010 6:14:57pm |
re: #429 Dark_Falcon
I wish I could believe that. My fear is that Israel-haters will have gotten better at stacking the deck and will find someway to find Israel guilty. They might do that simply to protect their own "international reputations", since these days to exonerate Israel of bogus charges is to risk being called a "fascist" or a "jew-lover".
None of those bogus charges have ever stuck in the real world. Maybe in the minds of those who would see Israel as the aggressor and not deserving of their land. But then I wager you'll never get to those people.
| 454 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:15:26pm |
| 455 |
jayzee Mon, May 31, 2010 6:16:37pm |
re: #231 windsagio
The US does it all the time and yes it is legal.
| 456 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 6:16:55pm |
I have a rhetorical question. Are there any pictures out there of Hamas without guns???
| 457 |
abolitionist Mon, May 31, 2010 6:16:58pm |
More on Binali Yildirim; from last year:
Turkish Transportation Minister In Iran
Published: 3/2/2009TEHRAN - Turkish Transportation Minister Binali Yildirim said on Saturday that development of relations between Turkey and Iran, which were on an important place in world trade, would contribute to the regional peace.
Yildirim, who is currently in Tehran to attend the 6th Iran-Turkey Transportation Joint Commission meeting, met with Iranian Transportation Minister Hamed Behbahani.
Yildirim said that Turkey, as a door to Europe, and Iran, as a door to Asia, were completing each other, and the two countries were on an important route in world trade.
He said that development of Turkey-Iran relations on every area would contribute to peace, security, prosperity and stability in the region.
I wonder if China is paying attention to this.
| 458 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 6:17:28pm |
re: #455 jayzee
If you're going to post something 200 posts later, you should read and see if the questoin has been answered in the next 5 to 10 posts >>
| 459 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 6:17:32pm |
re: #434 albusteve
it's dryer now than it was back then...many holes have dried up for that reason or from irrigation...and of course over in Texas for example, deep well drilling at the turn of the century transformed arid desert into wheat fields...time marches on...what used to be no mans land is now full of towns, even cities, farms, ranches and the good life, all coming up from the Ogalala Aquifer, which itself is now drying up...water is gonna be the next oil
Ogalala Aquifer, I've heard that name many times over the years. Drying up is surely bad.
I'm surprised coastal cities aren't making positive efforts toward desalination plants. City of Santa Barbara, CA was discussing several years ago. Don't know if anything came of it though.
| 460 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 6:18:05pm |
re: #456 JasonA
Per a google search yes, but there are things worse than guns.
| 461 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:18:19pm |
re: #453 marjoriemoon
None of those bogus charges have ever stuck in the real world. Maybe in the minds of those who would see Israel as the aggressor and not deserving of their land. But then I wager you'll never get to those people.
You're likely right, I just worry sometimes. But I do have faith that the right side will prevail.
| 462 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 6:18:30pm |
re: #452 darthstar
There you go being obtuse again. Killing won't bring peace...regardless of which side is doing the killing.
ah what about history tho, does that count?....I'm a peace through superior firepower type dude, besides whatever any other laid back kind of peacenik you think I am....killing is the only way to bring peace, you are living in a dreamworld if you think otherwise
| 463 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 6:18:51pm |
re: #460 windsagio
If I wanted to cause a freak out, I'd show the image of the kid dressed up in the fake bomb harness.
| 464 |
Mich-again Mon, May 31, 2010 6:19:04pm |
re: #456 JasonA
I have a rhetorical question. Are there any pictures out there of Hamas without guns???
There might be some pictures of Hamas kids with "toy" guns. Pretty standard fare for any picture of a Palestinian kid with an AK to include a caption that its a toy gun.
| 465 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 6:20:00pm |
re: #462 albusteve
ah what about history tho, does that count?...I'm a peace through superior firepower type dude, besides whatever any other laid back kind of peacenik you think I am...killing is the only way to bring peace, you are living in a dreamworld if you think otherwise
How many Russians did Ronald Reagan kill?
/I'm just sayin'
| 466 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 6:20:13pm |
re: #449 albusteve
peace will come...but it will be decided by the body count, I'm afraid
Maybe, but it's not what the Israelis want or hope for. The Jews will be ready and willing to fight, to the death if necessary, but it will be others who will force the issue.
| 467 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:20:15pm |
re: #452 darthstar
There you go being obtuse again. Killing won't bring peace...regardless of which side is doing the killing.
With respect: Some killing is needed to win the peace, because there are hard-core Islamists who will never make peace, and they have to be either killed or imprisoned before there can be peace.
| 468 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:20:52pm |
re: #466 Spare O'Lake
Maybe, but it's not what the Israelis want or hope for. The Jews will be ready and willing to fight, to the death if necessary, but it will be others who will force the issue.
Quite Concur.
| 469 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 6:21:19pm |
re: #463 windsagio
If I wanted to cause a freak out, I'd show the image of the kid dressed up in the fake bomb harness.
yeah if you wanted to...
any proof it is fake?
| 470 |
avanti Mon, May 31, 2010 6:21:37pm |
For those interested, the robots are cutting some hoses on the BOP, must be getting ready to saw off the big pipe.
| 471 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 6:21:40pm |
re: #452 darthstar
There you go being obtuse again. Killing won't bring peace...regardless of which side is doing the killing.
Actually peace is the epilogue that follows all the killing. Never a permanent condition unfortunately.
| 472 |
Varek Raith Mon, May 31, 2010 6:22:07pm |
Sorry, but, killing sometimes is necessary to bring about the end of a conflict.
| 473 |
Killgore Trout Mon, May 31, 2010 6:22:27pm |
re: #471 The Shadow Do
Actually peace is the epilogue that follows all the killing. Never a permanent condition unfortunately.
Tue, there has never been peace on earth and there probably never will be.
| 474 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 6:22:52pm |
re: #450 darthstar
Sticks and stones, motherfucker, sticks and stones. If I was offended every time someone called me some kind of slur, I'd spend a lot of time being offended.
To ignore an insult is not the same as not being offended.
| 475 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 6:23:29pm |
re: #469 brookly red
If you wanna figure it out, look yourself. Just did a google seach for hamas.
I didn't feel up for actually clicking on the post for some reason >>
| 476 |
Mich-again Mon, May 31, 2010 6:23:31pm |
I think the main reason there isn't peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that the UN, via decades of fruitless efforts to negotiate peace, refuses to let a victor's peace be imposed by Israel. The body count is in the thousands and peace is nowhere in sight.
The harder they fix it, the broker it gets.
| 477 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 6:23:36pm |
re: #472 Varek Raith
Sorry, but, killing sometimes is necessary to bring about the end of a conflict.
hush! danmit! you are upsetting my unicorn!
| 478 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 6:23:41pm |
re: #465 Racer X
How many Russians did Ronald Reagan kill?
/I'm just sayin'
The question is how many proxy wars were fought and how many died to forestall the big one.
| 479 |
Varek Raith Mon, May 31, 2010 6:24:21pm |
| 480 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 6:24:47pm |
Okay, why are these Hamas guys standing in front of a banner with the face of Christopher Lee as Saruman...?
| 482 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 6:25:26pm |
re: #445 albusteve
personally it's the women that make me a Jew lover...shallow?
The grass is always greener...
| 483 |
Varek Raith Mon, May 31, 2010 6:25:36pm |
| 484 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:26:00pm |
re: #471 The Shadow Do
Actually peace is the epilogue that follows all the killing. Never a permanent condition unfortunately.
To be perfectly honest, the planet hasn't been in a period of global 'peace' since man came onto the planet (6,000 years ago ///). But feuds and individual conflicts do end from time to time (see England vs. France, North vs. South, Spy vs. Spy, Hatfields vs. McCoys, etc...). Usually, it's a mutual agreement to stop killing that brings the peace...not complete obliteration of the opposing party.
You cannot start a war and hope to end it. There is no 'winning'...one side can desist, or the other can surrender, but there is no 'victory' in war. There never will be.
| 485 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:26:34pm |
re: #483 Varek Raith
HEY! I was gonna eat that Unicorn!
/
I don't know which was better, the dead cow or the dead asparagus.
| 486 |
jayzee Mon, May 31, 2010 6:26:47pm |
re: #465 Racer X
How many Russians did Ronald Reagan kill?
/I'm just sayin'
How many died during conflicts during the cold war? I think that argument is overly simplistic even assuming there is no difference between Communism and radical Islam.
| 487 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 6:26:56pm |
re: #472 Varek Raith
Sorry, but, killing sometimes is necessary to bring about the end of a conflict.
and the budda awakened to discover that somethings must die for others to live... what a bitch.
| 489 |
What, me worry? Mon, May 31, 2010 6:27:12pm |
re: #476 Mich-again
I think the main reason there isn't peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that the UN, via decades of fruitless efforts to negotiate peace, refuses to let a victor's peace be imposed by Israel. The body count is in the thousands and peace is nowhere in sight.
The harder they fix it, the broker it gets.
Peace will come when people are free. People living in fear-based, evil societies like Hamas can never hope to make peace. If they can't live in peace with each other, how can they live in peace with their neighbors. But that is their choice. Become free and join the world. Do not, and live in war.
One day, they will be no more. It happened in Germany, in Russia, in Iraq, all over the globe. Dictatorships ultimately do not survive. I would only hope it could happen in my lifetime.
| 490 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 6:27:43pm |
re: #484 darthstar
This is why the monolithic view of the palestinians is so harmful. It's setting up as the only criteria of victory an impossible one.
| 491 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, May 31, 2010 6:28:02pm |
re: #472 Varek Raith
Sorry, but, killing sometimes is necessary to bring about the end of a conflict.
Some cynical son a bitch said that peace is the shit that happens between wars.
| 492 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 6:28:08pm |
| 493 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 6:28:18pm |
re: #473 Killgore Trout
Tue, there has never been peace on earth and there probably never will be.
Peace is an anomaly; war is the norm for humans.
| 494 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 6:28:55pm |
re: #484 darthstar
To be perfectly honest, the planet hasn't been in a period of global 'peace' since man came onto the planet (6,000 years ago ///). But feuds and individual conflicts do end from time to time (see England vs. France, North vs. South, Spy vs. Spy, Hatfields vs. McCoys, etc...). Usually, it's a mutual agreement to stop killing that brings the peace...not complete obliteration of the opposing party.
You cannot start a war and hope to end it. There is no 'winning'...one side can desist, or the other can surrender, but there is no 'victory' in war. There never will be.
they end when one side is brought to its knees, physically, economically or both. The one on its knees is called the loser. The other is called the victor. This is not hard.
| 495 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 6:29:22pm |
| 496 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 6:30:02pm |
re: #494 The Shadow Do
Should have added politically. See Vietnam war etc
| 497 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 6:30:05pm |
| 498 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:30:19pm |
re: #493 Racer X
Peace is an anomaly; war is the norm for humans.
Sir Richard Francis Burton said it best:
Peace is the dream of the Wise, War is the history of Man.
| 499 |
brookly red Mon, May 31, 2010 6:30:21pm |
re: #483 Varek Raith
HEY! I was gonna eat that Unicorn!
/
well just for shits & giggles not having work and all, I have been feeding the unicorn raw eat & steroids... this should be funny.
| 500 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:30:23pm |
re: #474 Spare O'Lake
To ignore an insult is not the same as not being offended.
You need to put the insult in context. Is the person insulting you just to get under your skin? No need to be offended, as they're simply desperate and have run out of arguments. Are they insulting you because they dislike you for your religion/skin color/sexual preference/or the fact that you drive a Ford or Chevy? Fuck 'em. Why would anything they have to say offend you? The rare times I'm offended by insults are where the person using them isn't aware that they're being offensive...it's that kind of ignorance of the world around them that offends me the most...sadly, I find myself most offended these days by people who represent the Conservative Right in this country...The McCains, the Palins, the McConnells...their ignorance is painful to endure, at a minimum.
| 501 |
Mich-again Mon, May 31, 2010 6:30:44pm |
re: #480 JasonA
Okay, why are these Hamas guys standing in front of a banner with the face of Christopher Lee as Saruman...?
If the guy in the picture is Saruman, then the other guys are Orcs right?
Actually, thats Sheik Yassin. They had a wheelchair swarm at his going away party.
| 502 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:32:18pm |
re: #501 Mich-again
If the guy in the picture is Saruman, then the other guys are Orcs right?
Actually, thats Sheik Yassin. They had a wheelchair swarm at his going away party.
They think they're Uruk-Hai, but they don't fight well enough for that title.
| 504 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 6:32:42pm |
re: #500 darthstar
I think in this kind of thing we're kinda faced with a choice.
We can choose to be angry/offended, or choose not to.
The former is human nature, but the latter is healthier.
| 505 |
darthstar Mon, May 31, 2010 6:32:44pm |
Okay, time to go pull the stuffed clams off the barbecue and put the chicken on...back in a while.
| 506 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:32:50pm |
re: #492 Semper Fi
Oh, what did you have? Must have been good. Italian??
That was last night. Tonight was 16-oz., 11/2-inch Porterhouse steaks, roasted asparagus drizzled with olive oil and a bit of Parmesan, baked potatoes with butter, sour cream and chives, a Romaine salad with cucumbers, celery, tomatoes, broccoli florets and red onions, crusty bread smothered with garlic-butter and orange sorbet with chocolate shavings. Oh, and green onions I picked this morning. I LOVE THE SUMMER!!!
| 507 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 6:33:09pm |
| 508 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:33:40pm |
| 510 |
Mich-again Mon, May 31, 2010 6:34:34pm |
re: #506 MandyManners
We had burgers, pasta salad and corn on the cob. Where'd you go? Bellagio?
| 511 |
researchok Mon, May 31, 2010 6:34:58pm |
re: #484 darthstar
To be perfectly honest, the planet hasn't been in a period of global 'peace' since man came onto the planet (6,000 years ago ///). But feuds and individual conflicts do end from time to time (see England vs. France, North vs. South, Spy vs. Spy, Hatfields vs. McCoys, etc...). Usually, it's a mutual agreement to stop killing that brings the peace...not complete obliteration of the opposing party.
You cannot start a war and hope to end it. There is no 'winning'...one side can desist, or the other can surrender, but there is no 'victory' in war. There never will be.
Wars begin and end because of the various costs of waging war. That is as true today as it has been in the past, and that will be true in the future.
Peace among nations is arrived at when the cost of war becomes overwhelming. Racism, bigotry and hate are overcome when the cost of racism, bigotry and hate becomes too great for society to bear.
As long as the Palestinians perceive the cost of war as acceptable, then we will have war.
When nations that are that are led by or are under the influence of tyrants or dictators, attempt to justify those actions, we can rightly assume that justification is false. Tyrants and dictators do not make moral choices, because moral choices can only lead to the demise of the tyranny.
Anyone that comes to the defense of tyrannical regimes and their leaders, have themselves made a conscious choice to defend and stand by what is immoral. It should be repeated.
| 512 |
sandbox Mon, May 31, 2010 6:34:59pm |
New Sandbox bumper sticker:
Next time, disable the propellers.
| 513 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:35:12pm |
re: #502 Dark_Falcon
They think they're Uruk-Hai, but they don't fight well enough for that title.
Uruk-Hai would stomp their jihadi asses into the dirt.
| 514 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:35:23pm |
Fierce game tonight between the Blackhawks and Flyers. Halfway through the second period and still no score. Very different than Sunday.
| 515 |
jayzee Mon, May 31, 2010 6:35:38pm |
Well with all their time occupied by Israel, it's a relief that the UNSC will not be discussing this this week.
/
| 516 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 6:35:53pm |
re: #506 MandyManners
That was last night. Tonight was 16-oz., 11/2-inch Porterhouse steaks, roasted asparagus drizzled with olive oil and a bit of Parmesan, baked potatoes with butter, sour cream and chives, a Romaine salad with cucumbers, celery, tomatoes, broccoli florets and red onions, crusty bread smothered with garlic-butter and orange sorbet with chocolate shavings. Oh, and green onions I picked this morning. I LOVE THE SUMMER!!!
As you described, it sounds, and I'm sure it was, outstanding. Just one question:
What kind of potatoes?
| 517 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, May 31, 2010 6:36:16pm |
re: #452 darthstar
It would be so sweet if I could agree with you.
| 518 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:36:27pm |
re: #510 Mich-again
We had burgers, pasta salad and corn on the cob. Where'd you go? Bellagio?
Home. I have a fantastic butcher who knows how to age Porterhouse to perfection.
| 519 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:36:54pm |
| 520 |
Mich-again Mon, May 31, 2010 6:37:09pm |
re: #514 Dark_Falcon
Fierce game tonight between the Blackhawks and Flyers. Halfway through the second period and still no score. Very different than Sunday.
Great game so far huh? Loving it. Kind of hoping for the Flyers to win the Cup, but I don't really care much either way.
| 521 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:37:24pm |
re: #509 MandyManners
Liz Taylor knew how to pick 'em.
Yes, she did. But I have to tell you that I was referring to the 19th Century explorer, not the 20th Century actor. I'm still updinging you because you're right.
| 522 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:38:19pm |
re: #514 Dark_Falcon
Fierce game tonight between the Blackhawks and Flyers. Halfway through the second period and still no score. Very different than Sunday.
The Kid watched the Rockies play on line. Well, he had audio 'cause I let him have a pre-paid credit card to order stuff like that on-line. The screen showed a really weird thingy.
| 523 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 6:39:23pm |
re: #512 sandbox
New Sandbox bumper sticker:
Next time, disable the propellers.
Can only be done by fouling the props with drowned unicorns
| 524 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:39:26pm |
| 525 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 6:39:26pm |
re: #520 Mich-again
Great game so far huh? Loving it. Kind of hoping for the Flyers to win the Cup, but I don't really care much either way.
Can't agree about who I want to win (born and raised in Chicago, and I still live in Cook County), but the Flyers are doing very well.
| 526 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:40:12pm |
re: #521 Dark_Falcon
Yes, she did. But I have to tell you that I was referring to the 19th Century explorer, not the 20th Century actor. I'm still updinging you because you're right.
I knew that. I was just being a smart-ass.
Yes, indeed. Mandy's a smart-ass.
| 527 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:40:56pm |
Mandy's also a bit tipsy thanks to some good merlot.
| 529 |
sandbox Mon, May 31, 2010 6:42:52pm |
re: #519 MandyManners
Throw a net around it. Or some other tech way the Israelis can figure out. I understand that if the boats then float around for days on the open sea, there will be cries of a humanitarian crisis because they are running out of water and food and medicine. But it's alot easier than boarding boats.
| 530 |
windsagio Mon, May 31, 2010 6:43:38pm |
re: #527 MandyManners
Mandy's also a bit tipsy thanks to some good merlot.
That's the best way to be, Windy is jealous >>
| 531 |
Four More Tears Mon, May 31, 2010 6:44:42pm |
re: #529 sandbox
But... aren't the boats full of that stuff anyway?/
| 532 |
The Shadow Do Mon, May 31, 2010 6:44:48pm |
re: #529 sandbox
Throw a net around it. Or some other tech way the Israelis can figure out. I understand that if the boats then float around for days on the open sea, there will be cries of a humanitarian crisis because they are running out of water and food and medicine. But it's alot easier than boarding boats.
Those in the know weighed in earlier today on the topic. It is virtually impossible to do what you propose. And you're right, it would only have led to further escalation. At some point someone was going to have to go aboard.
| 533 |
Semper Fi Mon, May 31, 2010 6:45:12pm |
Good night good folks. It's been a long day and a little emotional focusing on loved ones here and not here.
| 534 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 6:46:00pm |
Grand opening of Atlantis hotel in Dubai
According to Guinness book of world records, the opening night was marked with the biggest fireworks of the century!
| 535 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:46:54pm |
re: #529 sandbox
Throw a net around it. Or some other tech way the Israelis can figure out. I understand that if the boats then float around for days on the open sea, there will be cries of a humanitarian crisis because they are running out of water and food and medicine. But it's alot easier than boarding boats.
I'm sure the IDF thought things through.
| 536 |
Racer X Mon, May 31, 2010 6:47:25pm |
| 537 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:47:41pm |
re: #534 Racer X
Grand opening of Atlantis hotel in Dubai
According to Guinness book of world records, the opening night was marked with the biggest fireworks of the century!
That's easy. The century is only 10 years old.
They arrest anyone for kissing?
| 538 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:48:45pm |
Buddy made a cake for Gov. Christie. Awesome.
| 539 |
compound idaho Mon, May 31, 2010 6:48:55pm |
re: #516 Semper Fi
As you described, it sounds, and I'm sure it was, outstanding. Just one question:
What kind of potatoes?
Hopefully Idaho Russet Burbank
| 541 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:50:13pm |
re: #516 Semper Fi
As you described, it sounds, and I'm sure it was, outstanding. Just one question:
What kind of potatoes?
Beats me. I just grabbed them out of the bin Saturday. (Now I'm feeling like a shitty cook.)
| 542 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:50:39pm |
| 543 |
jayzee Mon, May 31, 2010 6:50:59pm |
re: #529 sandbox
Throw a net around it. Or some other tech way the Israelis can figure out. I understand that if the boats then float around for days on the open sea, there will be cries of a humanitarian crisis because they are running out of water and food and medicine. But it's alot easier than boarding boats.
Remember, 5 of the 6 boats went off without a hitch. The success rate was pretty high on this opp. If Israel were almost any other country, the outcry would simply teach them that perhaps the risking of their soldiers' lives to be humane will only haunt them, so maybe next time a little less restraint would be in order.
| 544 |
solomonpanting Mon, May 31, 2010 6:52:16pm |
| 545 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:54:29pm |
| 546 |
albusteve Mon, May 31, 2010 6:56:29pm |
| 548 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:59:21pm |
| 549 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 6:59:57pm |
| 550 |
solomonpanting Mon, May 31, 2010 7:05:55pm |
re: #549 MandyManners
I hate pop quizzes.
What about pop music? Pop culture? Mamas & Papas? Papas and Beer?
| 551 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 7:07:41pm |
| 552 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, May 31, 2010 7:08:48pm |
re: #529 sandbox
Throw a net around it. Or some other tech way the Israelis can figure out. I understand that if the boats then float around for days on the open sea, there will be cries of a humanitarian crisis because they are running out of water and food and medicine. But it's alot easier than boarding boats.
seriously? throw a net around a ship?
seriously.
seriously?
| 553 |
solomonpanting Mon, May 31, 2010 7:09:28pm |
| 554 |
sandbox Mon, May 31, 2010 7:12:41pm |
re: #552 Aceofwhat?
I meant throw a net around the ship's propeller. Which I have been advised above is impractical. The object is to mechanically disable the motor.
| 555 |
sandbox Mon, May 31, 2010 7:17:16pm |
re: #554 sandbox
Maybe the BP guys in the gulf can figure something out.
| 556 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 7:17:25pm |
re: #554 sandbox
I meant throw a net around the ship's propeller. Which I have been advised above is impractical. The object is to mechanically disable the motor.
Those often don't work. The Sea Shepherds often use prop foulers against Japanese whaling ships, but these normally fail.
| 557 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 7:17:53pm |
| 558 |
MandyManners Mon, May 31, 2010 7:18:42pm |
re: #554 sandbox
I meant throw a net around the ship's propeller. Which I have been advised above is impractical. The object is to mechanically disable the motor.
Maybe those idiots should not have done what they did to begin with.
| 559 |
sandbox Mon, May 31, 2010 7:19:26pm |
re: #556 Dark_Falcon
"Prop Foulers" I like that term. And Israel can drop them from helicopters.
| 560 |
solomonpanting Mon, May 31, 2010 7:19:45pm |
| 561 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, May 31, 2010 7:24:16pm |
re: #559 sandbox
"Prop Foulers" I like that term. And Israel can drop them from helicopters.
True, but ships can dodge, and the devices are rather hit-or-miss (mostly miss).
| 562 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, May 31, 2010 7:28:49pm |
Evening lizards!
Here is an LGF post from Memorial Day 2006 from yours truly....
This morning I took my little girls to the church, found a veteran, and paid respect.
First we put flowers on the grave...
| 563 |
ClaudeMonet Mon, May 31, 2010 9:01:41pm |
re: #308 _RememberTonyC
I truly believe the President has a good heart, but a world view that is far too idealistic when it comes to the motivations and intentions of the people in Israel's neighborhood.
Jimmy Carter Part II, but without men with backbone on the other end like Begin and Sadat who can impose peace on their own skeptical nations and make it stick.
| 564 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:32:36am |
re: #438 albusteve
the whole damned ME controversy is about money, prestige and religious fervor...there is nothing in there about tolerance or multiculturalism and anybody that thinks so is naive...when it blows up for Israel, which it surely will, I hope the US is on the right side of history...I have my doubts with this admin...a major shooting war is cooking
Missiles and retaliation. The major shit will hit the fan when they try to take out Tel Aviv.
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