Newsweek: Geller Defends British Thugs Who Attacked Police, Blames Muslims

WingnutsAugust 2010 • Views: 6,606

Mark Hosenball notes anti-Muslim blogger Pamela Geller’s support for the thuggish English Defense League: N.Y. Anti-Mosque Leader Defends Group That Clashed With British Police.

A leader in the movement protesting plans to build an Islamic cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan is defending the actions of a right-wing, anti-Muslim group that was involved in violent clashes with British riot police over the weekend.

Pamela Geller is a conservative blogger, activist, and a principal organizer of Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), which seeks to block construction of the proposed center. The group is sponsoring a protest rally at the site on the 2010 anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, a week from Saturday. In a posting on her Atlas Shrugs blog, Geller expresses sympathy for the goals and actions of the English Defense League (EDL), a far-right group implicated in violent clashes with police during an anti-Islamic demonstration last Saturday in the northern English city of Bradford. “The stated goal of the EDL is to oppose militant Islam and the sharia,” Geller writes. “What’s wrong with that? Everything to the PC, leftist slaves in the media and the government.”

In an e-mail to Declassified, Geller affirmed her support for the EDL and defended the group’s actions in Bradford, which, with its nearby sister city of Leeds, has a substantial Muslim population, many of Pakistani extraction.

Geller wrote: “The media has been defamatory and libelous towards any and all counter jihad activists, including the EDL, which far from being neo-Nazi and racist, is pro-Israel and has Sikh and other non-white members and spokesmen. The EDL’s own explanation of what happened in Bradford is here. As you can see from that statement, a group of Islamic supremacists and Communists actually began the violence by throwing rocks at EDL members. White supremacists at the demonstration did not represent the EDL, and EDL members actually removed them from the demonstration.”

A proud member of the English Defense LeagueBritish media reports—including accounts from outlets known for their conservative political slants—and official police statements on the Bradford clashes do not offer much support for, and in some cases contradict, the account offered by the EDL. In an official chronology of last Saturday’s events posted on the Web site of the West Yorkshire Police, the first reference to violence is a 2:30 p.m. entry that says: “Missiles have been thrown in the area around the Bradford Urban Gardens, however, this has been contained and the police are utilising their resources to manage the current situation.”

Also see

Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer Stand With The English Defense League

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192 comments

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:04:23pm

Oh look! Loser boy is back.

Kragar Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:04:50pm

Obviously if the Muslims weren’t there, they wouldn’t be making those poor Brits so angry and forcing them to attack the police.

Another cunning stunt from

Kragar Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:05:21pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

Oh look! Loser boy is back.

Seen Kyle? He’s about this tall.

Jeff In Ohio Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:05:59pm

Looks like the MSM is catching on. Good.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:06:03pm

I hearby salute the people who tried to kill my grandmother.

I want to be just like them.

(As has been pointed out, he has not one, but FOUR L’s on his chest, because he is quadruple loser boy.)

Stanghazi Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:06:23pm

Drip drip drip.

Preparing for the photos of her hugging Geert.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:10:23pm

Yes yes, blame the victim.

These people never saw a Nazi they didn’t like.

Just disgusting.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:11:25pm

“The media has been defamatory and libelous towards any and all counter jihad activists, including the EDL, which far from being neo-Nazi and racist, is pro-Israel and has Sikh and other non-white members and spokesmen.”

She just said a known Neo-Nazi group is pro-Israel.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What a fool.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:13:01pm

re: #6 Stanley Sea

Drip drip drip.

Preparing for the photos of her hugging Geert.

You’re late to that party.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:13:38pm

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes yes, blame the victim.

These people never saw a Nazi they didn’t like.

Just disgusting.

All kinds of self hating Jews.

Stanghazi Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:16:02pm

re: #8 Fozzie Bear

“The media has been defamatory and libelous towards any and all counter jihad activists, including the EDL, which far from being neo-Nazi and racist, is pro-Israel and has Sikh and other non-white members and spokesmen.”

She just said a known Neo-Nazi group is pro-Israel.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What a fool.

What also stood out to me?

non-white.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:16:17pm

re: #10 researchok

All kinds of self hating Jews.

Pam is a JINO
/

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:16:36pm

Charles — I recommend a caption under that second photo for context, remember some visitors will have zero context or background on this issue.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:17:03pm

re: #12 Alouette

Pam is a JINO
/

Line of the day.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:17:27pm

re: #10 researchok

All kinds of self hating Jews.

I normally object to that statement, since it’s so often misused.

But I can’t understand a Jew supporting the EDL. I just can’t reckon with it at all.

It makes as much sense as a black KKK member.

Jews do not actually see Muslims as their greatest enemy of all time. They see Radical Islam, in the here and now, as a great and grave danger.

But Jews have been Jews for thousands of years. And we know that anti-semetism is not the province of any particular race or creed. We know that European Christians persecuted us for more than a millennium. We know that European fascists tried to exterminate us.

Why do they think we’ll forget?

Gus Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:18:51pm

Orrin Hatch defends Park51?!?

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:19:13pm

re: #3 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Seen Kyle? He’s about this tall.

Taxi! Over here!

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:19:41pm

re: #16 Gus 802

Orrin Hatch defends Park51?!?

Maybe he’s remembering all the opposition that LDS temples have received.

Gus Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:20:08pm

re: #18 EmmmieG

Maybe he’s remembering all the opposition that LDS temples have received.

He mentions that.

fox13now.com

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:21:18pm

re: #13 Thanos

Charles — I recommend a caption under that second photo for context, remember some visitors will have zero context or background on this issue.

I think that we should have a caption contest. We don’t do that enough.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:21:31pm

re: #16 Gus 802

Orrin Hatch defends Park51?!?

Well, good for him. He just gained points in my book, especially considering his constituency will crucify him for it.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:22:27pm

re: #18 EmmmieG

Maybe he’s remembering all the opposition that LDS temples have received.

I have been very happy to see DaddyG, a Mormon LGF member, passionately defending Park51 on those grounds as well.

I hope this is a sentiment in the Mormon community at large, even though I fear it will just turn other Christians more against them than they already are. See Jeff In Ohio’s page:

Southern Baptist Leader Calls Beck Rally a ‘Scandal’ Driven by the Spirit of the Antichrist

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:22:42pm

re: #13 Thanos

Charles — I recommend a caption under that second photo for context, remember some visitors will have zero context or background on this issue.

That is a great point. Charles. I agree.

Gus Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:22:53pm

Libelous. That’s every second word that comes out of Pam Geller’s and Robert Spencer’s mouths. Reminds me of obnoxious people that are always threatening to sue you. There is no libel. The EDL is a hate group made up of Nazis.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:22:56pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

how about,”my grandfather fought nazi tyranny in ww2 and all i got was this lousy tattoo!”

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:23:05pm

re: #15 Obdicut

I normally object to that statement, since it’s so often misused.

But I can’t understand a Jew supporting the EDL. I just can’t reckon with it at all.

It makes as much sense as a black KKK member.

Jews do not actually see Muslims as their greatest enemy of all time. They see Radical Islam, in the here and now, as a great and grave danger.

But Jews have been Jews for thousands of years. And we know that anti-semetism is not the province of any particular race or creed. We know that European Christians persecuted us for more than a millennium. We know that European fascists tried to exterminate us.

Why do they think we’ll forget?

Kapos are real.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:23:43pm

re: #12 Alouette

Pam is a JINO
/

Pam should be placed under a strict ban of cherem.

She brings the entire people down.

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:24:08pm

Nice to see she’s prepared to double down on her EDL connection instead of trying to distance herself from them. This is going to be media suicide.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:24:12pm

or”the edl pie eating champ waves to his adoring fans!”

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:25:17pm

“body by guiness”

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:25:56pm

re: #25 Boondock St. Bender

how about,”my grandfather fought nazi tyranny in ww2 and all i got was this lousy tattoo!”

“hey - Jerry - does this swastika make me look fat?”

Eclectic Cyborg Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:27:11pm

How do people like this avoid being institutionalized? It completely baffles me.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:27:22pm

And speaking of blaming the victim…

Hamas Islamists in the Gaza Strip issued a statement on Tuesday claiming responsibility for a shooting attack that killed four Israelis in the West Bank on the eve of peace talks in Washington.

The statement from the armed wing of Hamas, a group that opposes any dialogue with the Jewish state, said the “Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron.” (Reuters)

One of the victims was a pregnant woman. It was a drive by shooting that just randomly murdered a whole family.

McSpiff and Windy, get your Israel hating asses upfront and center, and please explain to us how reasonable the Hamsnicks are and how unreasonable the Israelis are. I want a piece of your sick asses today.

Kragar Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:27:24pm

re: #31 Aceofwhat?

“hey - Jerry - does this swastika make me look fat?”

No, your beer gut does that all by itself, you fat fuck.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:27:30pm

“the tattoo’s distract the eye from my man boobs”

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:28:19pm

re: #15 Obdicut

I normally object to that statement, since it’s so often misused.

But I can’t understand a Jew supporting the EDL. I just can’t reckon with it at all.

It makes as much sense as a black KKK member.

Jews do not actually see Muslims as their greatest enemy of all time. They see Radical Islam, in the here and now, as a great and grave danger.

But Jews have been Jews for thousands of years. And we know that anti-semetism is not the province of any particular race or creed. We know that European Christians persecuted us for more than a millennium. We know that European fascists tried to exterminate us.

Why do they think we’ll forget?

Jews labor under one of two misconceptions.

A) If they aren’t too Jewish, they are unlike the ‘hated’ Jews. They are as good as everyone else.

B) They believe the Holocaust has ordained them with a ‘holy’ spirituality, not unlike those Christians who believe they needn’t do good works. By accepting Christ, they are guaranteed a place in Heaven. These Jews believe they are the final arbiter on what and what isn’t moral.

Of course, both of these concepts bear some truth- but only if the persons in questions are inherently moral to begin with.

Jews, as the only people to have survived from antiquity as a identifiable group have done so because they have been able to integrate into the societies they lived in. This is no small matter. As one author noted, Jews can be found in every major city in the world. As he also said, ‘Show me a single Hittite”- a people far greater in number in antiquity.

The Holocaust was/is an event that is owned by humanity and not just the Jews. In some ways, the Holocaust impacted non Jews more than anyone else. Christian Europe cannot wear white, ever again.

That said, whatever penance Christian Europe musty endure cannot be dictated by Jews. If that penance is to real, Christian Europe must find her own ways to atone for scars and wounds to heal.

Pamela Geller is not the moral arbiter.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:28:42pm

re: #28 elbruce

Nice to see she’s prepared to double down on her EDL connection instead of trying to distance herself from them. This is going to be media suicide.

You assume that the American public will necessarily turn on Nazis. I posit that they wont.

Anybody that opposes the left is an ally to the decreasingly-marginalized (increasingly mainstreamed) far right at this point. That includes Nazis.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:28:56pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

What the fuck, dude?

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:29:00pm

“i drank this much beer last nite!”

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:29:34pm

re: #31 Aceofwhat?

“hey - Jerry - does this swastika make me look fat?”

Dude, that is hilarious.

The only good thing I can say about most of the photos I’ve seen of these thugs is that they tend to be paunchy little weasels.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:29:45pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

And speaking of blaming the victim…

One of the victims was a pregnant woman. It was a drive by shooting that just randomly murdered a whole family.

McSpiff and Windy, get your Israel hating asses upfront and center, and please explain to us how reasonable the Hamsnicks are and how unreasonable the Israelis are. I want a piece of your sick asses today.

Criticizing Israel isn’t an endorsement of these sick fucks. I wish you would stop acting like they are one and the same.

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:30:30pm

re: #35 Boondock St. Bender

“the tattoo’s distract the eye from my man boobs”

“What do you mean, i look like a man-o-lantern?”

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:30:42pm

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, that is hilarious.

The only good thing I can say about most of the photos I’ve seen of these thugs is that they tend to be paunchy little weasels.

That was the main thing I felt was unrealistic about American History X. I’ve never seen a skinhead that was actually in that good condition.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:30:50pm

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

dude would go 30 sec.tops in a real fight,then he’s sucking wind.

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:31:54pm

Crazy Pam Retorts….
Newsweek on the EDL

Thought you might like to see this piece Mark Hosenball did on the EDL. Clearly the left is attempting to split the counter jihad movement. They want me to distance myself from brave souls fighting Islamic supremacism. N-O-T G-O-I-N-G T-O H-A-P-P-E-N.

If I lived in England, I would surely be active in the EDL Jewish division. Members of the EDL will be attending our rally to stop the Ground Zero Islamic supremacist mosque on September 11th (be there).

Nice!

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:31:55pm

EDL member hails cab at rally after his water breaks

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:31:57pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

And speaking of blaming the victim…

One of the victims was a pregnant woman. It was a drive by shooting that just
randomly murdered a whole family.

McSpiff and Windy, get your Israel hating asses upfront and center, and please explain to us how reasonable the Hamsnicks are and how unreasonable the Israelis are. I want a piece of your sick asses today.

Post one comment where I’ve been anti-Israeli. Hint: You can’t.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:32:05pm

re: #41 Fozzie Bear

Criticizing Israel isn’t an endorsement of these sick fucks. I wish you would stop acting like they are one and the same.

The problem has never been about criticizing Israel.

The problem was and is that the critics of Israel almost always assume the side of the Palestinians, some of the most broken and dysfunction bigots, racists and hate mongers of modern times.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:32:12pm

re: #43 Obdicut

That was the main thing I felt was unrealistic about American History X. I’ve never seen a skinhead that was actually in that good condition.

I take it you have never seen a prison yard.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:32:25pm

re: #38 Obdicut

What the fuck, dude?

I am sick and tired of the moral equivocation of our lefty contingent.

I despise moronic rightwing nuts and despise the moonbats as well.

In fact, I am just thoroughly sick of stupid people in general.

Those tow are two of the largest purveyors of anti-Israel talk here. I want to here them defend this.

Then I want to tear them new assholes.

I thought that was all pretty obvious from the post.

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:33:03pm

re: #39 Boondock St. Bender

“i drank this much beer last nite!”

“We’re goin’ streeekin’!!”

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:33:05pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

or more accurately in the bar adjacent to our protest

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:33:14pm

re: #50 LudwigVanQuixote

I am sick and tired of the moral equivocation of our lefty contingent.

I despise moronic rightwing nuts and despise the moonbats as well.

In fact, I am just thoroughly sick of stupid people in general.

Those tow are two of the largest purveyors of anti-Israel talk here. I want to here them defend this.

Then I want to tear them new assholes.

I thought that was all pretty obvious from the post.

Post a single comment where I’ve been anti-Israeli. You’re butthurt about last night, you fool.

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:33:19pm

re: #41 Fozzie Bear

Criticizing Israel isn’t an endorsement of these sick fucks. I wish you would stop acting like they are one and the same.

Nonsense. Everybody knows there are exactly two sides to every conflict, and if you don’t support one side 100%, then it means you support the other side 100%. There are no third sides, nor is there a middle. ///

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:33:38pm

re: #50 LudwigVanQuixote

I am sick and tired of the moral equivocation of our lefty contingent.

I despise moronic rightwing nuts and despise the moonbats as well.

In fact, I am just thoroughly sick of stupid people in general.

Those tow are two of the largest purveyors of anti-Israel talk here. I want to here them defend this.

Then I want to tear them new assholes.

I thought that was all pretty obvious from the post.

See my 48

Stanghazi Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:33:39pm

re: #50 LudwigVanQuixote

I am sick and tired of the moral equivocation of our lefty contingent.

I despise moronic rightwing nuts and despise the moonbats as well.

In fact, I am just thoroughly sick of stupid people in general.

Those tow are two of the largest purveyors of anti-Israel talk here. I want to here them defend this.

Then I want to tear them new assholes.

I thought that was all pretty obvious from the post.

Oh goodie. I guess I do have to go to work.

LVQ, can’t tell you what or when, but damn.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:34:38pm

re: #48 researchok

The problem has never been about criticizing Israel.

The problem was and is that the critics of Israel almost always assume the side of the Palestinians, some of the most broken and dysfunction bigots, racists and hate mongers of modern times.

No, that just isn’t the case. You can criticize Israel’s actions without questioning it’s right to exist. You can draw into question the acts of a government without questioning Judaism.

I myself have at times found myself upset with things Israel has done. That does not mean I have any love for Hamas.

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:34:46pm

re: #39 Boondock St. Bender

“i drank this much beer last nite!”

“Hey, Pam! Check out my gunz!”

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:35:09pm

re: #50 LudwigVanQuixote

I am sick and tired of the moral equivocation of our lefty contingent.

I despise moronic rightwing nuts and despise the moonbats as well.

In fact, I am just thoroughly sick of stupid people in general.

Those tow are two of the largest purveyors of anti-Israel talk here. I want to here them defend this.

Then I want to tear them new assholes.

I thought that was all pretty obvious from the post.

Did you ever stop and consider it’s not all about you?

I’ve seen Windsagio post some inane things on Israel. Nothing at all that was “Israel-hating”. I haven’t seen McSpiff post anything I’d consider “Israel-hating” either.

Can you back up that accusation?

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:35:12pm

re: #37 Fozzie Bear

You assume that the American public will necessarily turn on Nazis. I posit that they wont.

Only if the media has the guts to report that the Nazis are Nazis.

I think that the radical right allying with open Nazis is more likely to marginalize the radical right than it is to elevate the Nazis.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:35:15pm

“that would be the angle of my penis right now,…if only i could see it…”

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:36:16pm

re: #47 McSpiff

Post one comment where I’ve been anti-Israeli. Hint: You can’t.

Well let’s talk about Israel’s disproportionate responses. You have been quite vocal about that in the past. Now is not the time to shrink away.

Please tell me, how that family was disproportionally responding to anyone.

Please tell me how when this is a reality over there that Israelis live with everyday, how is doing whatever it takes to avoid the very real danger of things like that happening, disproportionate?

Then you can tell me how the Blue helmets will protect people.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:36:22pm

re: #54 elbruce

Nonsense. Everybody knows there are exactly two sides to every conflict, and if you don’t support one side 100%, then it means you support the other side 100%. There are no third sides, nor is there a middle. ///

Guess what- there are no two sides or a middle.

That works if the two sides are opponents and not enemies.

Opponents can disagree, argue buit play the rules of civilized nations.

The Palestinians- and much of the Arab world are enemies. They do not share our values. They care little for human right and have no issue with state sponsored racism, bigotry and hate.

They are not moral equals to us or anyone else in the civilized world.

PERIOD.

zora Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:36:44pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam Retorts…
Newsweek on the EDL

Nice!

there is an edl jewish division? i hope it is an army on one. geller.

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:36:59pm

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

Post links to my comments asshole.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:37:41pm

re: #57 Fozzie Bear

No, that just isn’t the case. You can criticize Israel’s actions without questioning it’s right to exist. You can draw into question the acts of a government without questioning Judaism.

I myself have at times found myself upset with things Israel has done. That does not mean I have any love for Hamas.

BULLSHIT.

I criticize Israel often- but I’ll be damned if any of that criticism bestows any kind of credibility on the Palestinians.

Jeff In Ohio Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:37:46pm

re: #35 Boondock St. Bender

“the tattoo’s distract the eye from my man boobs”

I have this fantasy that skinheads with swastika tattoos have them centered over their nipples like black tape on strippers.

No, not that kind of fantasy.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:38:03pm

re: #56 Stanley Sea

Oh goodie. I guess I do have to go to work.

LVQ, can’t tell you what or when, but damn.

Ohh but I can… what about his whining about the Israel first people here?

And no I am not butthurt.

Kragar Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:38:19pm

“Hey is that a Spice Girl? POSH! ITS ME, OLAF! OVER HERE! …I dont think she saw me.”

Wozza Matter? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:38:33pm

I’m not sticking around for this.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:38:34pm

“some time in the ninties the pillsbury doughboy got mixed up with the wrong crowd”

ShaunP Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:38:35pm

re: #68 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh but I can… what about his whining about the Israel first people here?

And no I am not butthurt.

You sound butthurt…

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:38:52pm

re: #57 Fozzie Bear

No, that just isn’t the case. You can criticize Israel’s actions without questioning it’s right to exist. You can draw into question the acts of a government without questioning Judaism.

I myself have at times found myself upset with things Israel has done. That does not mean I have any love for Hamas.

I have no issue with that- I was very clear when I noted that most critics of Israel support the Palestinians. I never said all.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:39:19pm

re: #67 Jeff In Ohio

ummmm…ok(slowly backs away…lol

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:39:26pm

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

Well let’s talk about Israel’s disproportionate responses. You have been quite vocal about that in the past. Now is not the time to shrink away.

Please tell me, how that family was disproportionally responding to anyone.

Please tell me how when this is a reality over there that Israelis live with everyday, how is doing whatever it takes to avoid the very real danger of things like that happening, disproportionate?

Then you can tell me how the Blue helmets will protect people.

Did McSpiff say this family was disproportionately responding to anyone?

If not, why would you ask him that?

I don’t feel that Israel doing ‘whatever it takes’ to avoid the danger of attacks by Hamas is okay. That would depend on what ‘whatever’ was.

So am I anti-Israel now too?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:39:40pm

re: #65 McSpiff

Post links to my comments asshole.

Like the one bitching about the Israel first people here.. I’m looking for it. In the mean time, rather than being a snot, you can make this go away by simply saying that Israel has a right to defend itself from such attacks.

If you say that, openly, I’ll drop the whole thing.

If you don’t then I really don’t need to look through all of your drivel.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:40:12pm

re: #63 researchok

Guess what- there are no two sides or a middle.

That works if the two sides are opponents and not enemies.

Opponents can disagree, argue buit play the rules of civilized nations.

The Palestinians- and much of the Arab world are enemies. They do not share our values. They care little for human right and have no issue with state sponsored racism, bigotry and hate.

They are not moral equals to us or anyone else in the civilized world.

PERIOD.

The Palestinians are the people living in a place. They are not homogeneous in belief, only location.

“They” as a whole aren’t your enemy. Some of them certainly are, but not the whole. It’s the same issue as the park51 issue, really, just in a different place, older, and even more inflamed on all sides.

If X is a member of set Y, and X has a certain property, that doesn’t mean all members of set Y do. It’s an error in reasoning caused by feelings replacing rational thought.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:43:28pm

re: #59 Obdicut

Did you ever stop and consider it’s not all about you?

I’ve seen Windsagio post some inane things on Israel. Nothing at all that was “Israel-hating”. I haven’t seen McSpiff post anything I’d consider “Israel-hating” either.

Can you back up that accusation?

windbagio will usually post some anti-Israel snark and decorate it with some of his emoticon graffiti “just to keep us on our toes :;>>p”

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:44:23pm

re: #64 zora

there is an edl jewish division? i hope it is an army on one. geller.

What are Israeli flags and Jewish activists doing at demonstrations sponsored by the English Defence League?

Roberta Moore, 39, a petite woman in a colorful outfit, speaks in a rolling Brazilian accent and works for a commercial firm. A Jew born in Rio de Janeiro, she once lived in Israel and now resides in north London. She is not exactly the stereotypical EDL member the media likes to depict, but Moore is one of the most prominent activists in the group’s so-called Jewish division. In her heart she is an unrestrained Kahanist - at least according to fans on her Facebook page.

They’re an extremist terrorist group. Very nasty folks.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:45:11pm

re: #78 Alouette

Did you just push “shift” and run your hand across the top of the keyboard?

(Although I will add that since we read our scriptures in the Roman alphabet, the Princess will read a colon or semi colon followed by a closing parenthesis as “smiley face.”)

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:45:20pm

re: #63 researchok

The Palestinians- and much of the Arab world are enemies. They do not share our values. They care little for human right and have no issue with state sponsored racism, bigotry and hate.

They are not moral equals to us or anyone else in the civilized world.

PERIOD.

Move that period some decimal places over. 99.999…% of the people you’re maligning are regular folks who go to their jobs every day, raise their families, get along with their neighbors, and just like me wish that the assholes with guns would knock it off.

If you’re going to claim that entire races are somehow inhuman and that conflict is inevitable, then that puts you on the pro-violence side. The only practical outcome of your rhetoric is prolonging conflict and stacking the bodies even higher.

By the way, this is the part where I call you a racist. Racist.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:45:41pm

to spice things up.mtv adds a new member to “jersey shore”

Stanghazi Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:46:01pm

re: #78 Alouette

windbagio will usually post some anti-Israel snark and decorate it with some of his emoticon graffiti “just to keep us on our toes :;>>p”

I’ll use the ole LGF canard. If the poster isn’t here, it’s not fair to call them out.

Windbagio? puleeze.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:46:41pm

re: #77 Fozzie Bear

The Palestinians are the people living in a place. They are not homogeneous in belief, only location.

“They” as a whole aren’t your enemy. Some of them certainly are, but not the whole. It’s the same issue as the park51 issue, really, just in a different place, older, and even more inflamed on all sides.

If X is a member of set Y, and X has a certain property, that doesn’t mean all members of set Y do. It’s an error in reasoning caused by feelings replacing rational thought.

Yeah, we shouldn’t have gone to war with Germany because the Germans “..not homogeneous in belief, only location.”

Here is the deal. Poll after poll highlight Palestinian racism, bigotry and hate. Hamas won an election, fair and square- and it isn’t as if they were hiding their racist agenda. That agenda is broadcast day and night in their media, schools and from many religious pulpits.

Still, you have point. Please advise me as to the moderate Palestinians you refer. What political party do they belong to? Who are their noble and courageous leaders? Where are the documents that might enshrine freedom liberty and democracy? Where are the documents that would enshrine religious freedom?

Yes, Hamas was elected fair and square. The Nazi came to power by the manipulation of free elections too.

Had we bombed the shit out of Berlin in 1939, 50 MILLION lives might have been spared.

But who cares, right?

Wozza Matter? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:47:12pm

re: #82 Boondock St. Bender

to spice things up.mtv adds a new member to “jersey shore”

ooooo who?????

(would really rather actually be talking about Jersey Shore right now…….)

although i am watch Biggest Loser, so yeah, there are lots of things i’d rather be doing………

AlexRogan Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:47:21pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

And speaking of blaming the victim…

One of the victims was a pregnant woman. It was a drive by shooting that just randomly murdered a whole family.

McSpiff and Windy, get your Israel hating asses upfront and center, and please explain to us how reasonable the Hamsnicks are and how unreasonable the Israelis are. I want a piece of your sick asses today.

I know you don’t particularly care for McSpiff and Windsagio, but you trying to pick a fight with them straight out of the gate today, without provocation, makes you look like a bully and a dick.

Get over it already and chill…

(Note: I am not defending or endorsing any other Lizards’ point of view.)

Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:47:27pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

What are Israeli flags and Jewish activists doing at demonstrations sponsored by the English Defence League?

They’re an extremist terrorist group. Very nasty folks.

These are folks who read in “The Guardian” that Israel is a “fascist, apartheid state” and they’re all like, yeah, I am so totally down with that!

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:48:04pm

re: #73 researchok

I have no issue with that- I was very clear when I noted that most critics of Israel support the Palestinians. I never said all.

I support ‘the Palestinians’. I do so by noting that the Arab states (and Iran) are the biggest persecutor of the Palestinians, both directly, through denying them citizenship, creating terrible conditions in the refugee camps, funding terrorist in their midst, and indirectly, through pumping out antisemitic propaganda, refusing to recognize Israel, and sabotaging peace. I also feel the Palestinians bear a great deal of responsibility for their situation, since they have not been able to take a stand against the terrorists in their midst, in not accepting Israel’s existence, etc.

“The Palestinians” really do suffer. They suffer for reasons that are of their own creation, and of the creation of the Arab states. They suffer from Israel’s actions too, even though, and let me be absolutely clear, Israel acts with great restraint and is, ironically, the best friend that the Palestinians have. Without Israel, the Palestinians would be another oppressed minority in the Arab states.

But that does not mean that one can’t sympathize for them, for their position.

In a way, they are similar to the Roma. As I think you know, my wife is part Roma. Now, the funny thing is she doesn’t like traditional Roma culture at all. It’s misogynistic, closed off, anti-science, superstitious, clannish, and racist. Traditional Roma men would view her as an abomination. But that does not mean that she can’t have sympathy as Roma camps are destroyed, can’t weep because it only increases their ostracism, their exclusion from society, only pushes back the time when Roma women will gain equality in Roma society, will gain freedom.

The Palestinians have caused much of their own problems. Their suffering is still real. The suffering of Israel, the forebearance of Israel, is still a model for the world.

But the conflict is not Palestine vs. Israel. It is all of the Arab states, and Iran, vs. Israel. Palestine and every Palestinian could vanish tomorrow and Israel would still face attacks, slander, terrorism, and the threat of war.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:48:25pm

re: #77 Fozzie Bear

The Palestinians are the people living in a place. They are not homogeneous in belief, only location.

“They” as a whole aren’t your enemy. Some of them certainly are, but not the whole. It’s the same issue as the park51 issue, really, just in a different place, older, and even more inflamed on all sides.

If X is a member of set Y, and X has a certain property, that doesn’t mean all members of set Y do. It’s an error in reasoning caused by feelings replacing rational thought.

The problem nowadays is that Jews who think like that are few in numbers.

They were all killed.

The only ones left are those will fight back and not wait to be slaughtered.

Bummer.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:48:39pm

re: #85 wozzablog

caption contest for the blubbery nazi in the header

Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:49:18pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

And speaking of blaming the victim…

One of the victims was a pregnant woman. It was a drive by shooting that just randomly murdered a whole family.

McSpiff and Windy, get your Israel hating asses upfront and center, and please explain to us how reasonable the Hamsnicks are and how unreasonable the Israelis are. I want a piece of your sick asses today.

I don’t recall that McSpiff has said anything anti-Israel. The Israel-hating ass you’re looking for is “drcordell” though I haven’t seen him post for a while.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:49:27pm

re: #65 McSpiff

Post links to my comments asshole.

OK here is a gem dick wad.

littlegreenfootballs.com

For the record, I think overwhelming displays of force is something that needs to be revived. I’m sure the IDF could put on an impressive display and finish removing that tree.

Yeah innocent people who were no where near the tree got shot by terrorists under the watchful eye of the blue helmets… but it’s a joke.

or here is another Gem

littlegreenfootballs.com

Its easy. If they’re dead and not in an IDF uniform, they’re “Hezzie”. Helps some posters sleep at night.

As if Israel targets civilians and we laugh at it, or don’t care when innocent people get hurt.

And here is another you duplicitous asswad,

windsagio Keep fighting the good fight

You want some more?

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:50:44pm

re: #84 researchok

Yeah, we shouldn’t have gone to war with Germany because the Germans “..not homogeneous in belief, only location.”

Here is the deal. Poll after poll highlight Palestinian racism, bigotry and hate. Hamas won an election, fair and square- and it isn’t as if they were hiding their racist agenda. That agenda is broadcast day and night in their media, schools and from many religious pulpits.

Still, you have point. Please advise me as to the moderate Palestinians you refer. What political party do they belong to? Who are their noble and courageous leaders? Where are the documents that might enshrine freedom liberty and democracy? Where are the documents that would enshrine religious freedom?

Yes, Hamas was elected fair and square. The Nazi came to power by the manipulation of free elections too.

Had we bombed the shit out of Berlin in 1939, 50 MILLION lives might have been spared.

But who cares, right?

Poll after poll highlights American racism, bigotry, and hate. That doesn’t make it right, nor does it mean that everyone here is a racist hateful bigot.

If you want to make the people of a region your enemy, fine, I can’t stop you. But they aren’t Germany circa 1939. Unless you have a time machine, pre-emptively committing genocide isn’t permissible.

You don’t have a time machine, do you?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:51:10pm

re: #86 talon_262

I know you don’t particularly care for McSpiff and Windsagio, but you trying to pick a fight with them straight out of the gate today, without provocation, makes you look like a bully and a dick.

Get over it already and chill…

(Note: I am not defending or endorsing any other Lizards’ point of view.)

Oh no, I actually think Windy can be brought round.

I despise McSpiff though. And you are correct. I am coming out shooting.

It will happen more frequently too.

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:51:23pm

re: #88 Obdicut

well put. history will show the pali.leadership has much to answer for.

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:51:31pm

re: #84 researchok

Yeah, we shouldn’t have gone to war with Germany because the Germans “..not homogeneous in belief, only location.”

The people over there who are the problem think exactly like you do. Just with the names switched around. It’s starting to look like you’re just another one of them, except that you just happen to want to mass-murder a different group than they do. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t care which populace you want to slaughter, I’m against it.

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:51:36pm

re: #90 Boondock St. Bender

caption contest for the blubbery nazi in the header

“Yep, that’s my haggis…just toss it over here”

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:51:37pm

re: #76 LudwigVanQuixote

You lie like a god damn rat. I’ll give you a couple freebies

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/showc/409/8562056

You won’t ever hear me defend the UN’s track record on Israel. Nor will I defend “Peace keeping” missions like what we’re discussing here. At best it should be made clear that these forces are purely observers or they should be removed.

Here’s me defending Israel during the flotilla issue,

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/showc/127/8438025

Here’s one where I support hezbollah getting scuds… O wait, no, I say take the bastards out

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/showc/62/8300617

Why are we even talking about the Palis? I don’t care if its the Knights of Columbus moving Scuds in next to Israel…they simply can’t be there. Thats the end of. This is a very short term problem with a very obvious solution.

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:52:15pm

re: #88 Obdicut

I support ‘the Palestinians’. I do so by noting that the Arab states (and Iran) are the biggest persecutor of the Palestinians, both directly, through denying them citizenship, creating terrible conditions in the refugee camps, funding terrorist in their midst, and indirectly, through pumping out antisemitic propaganda, refusing to recognize Israel, and sabotaging peace. I also feel the Palestinians bear a great deal of responsibility for their situation, since they have not been able to take a stand against the terrorists in their midst, in not accepting Israel’s existence, etc.

“The Palestinians” really do suffer. They suffer for reasons that are of their own creation, and of the creation of the Arab states. They suffer from Israel’s actions too, even though, and let me be absolutely clear, Israel acts with great restraint and is, ironically, the best friend that the Palestinians have. Without Israel, the Palestinians would be another oppressed minority in the Arab states.

But that does not mean that one can’t sympathize for them, for their position.

In a way, they are similar to the Roma. As I think you know, my wife is part Roma. Now, the funny thing is she doesn’t like traditional Roma culture at all. It’s misogynistic, closed off, anti-science, superstitious, clannish, and racist. Traditional Roma men would view her as an abomination. But that does not mean that she can’t have sympathy as Roma camps are destroyed, can’t weep because it only increases their ostracism, their exclusion from society, only pushes back the time when Roma women will gain equality in Roma society, will gain freedom.

The Palestinians have caused much of their own problems. Their suffering is still real. The suffering of Israel, the forebearance of Israel, is still a model for the world.

But the conflict is not Palestine vs. Israel. It is all of the Arab states, and Iran, vs. Israel. Palestine and every Palestinian could vanish tomorrow and Israel would still face attacks, slander, terrorism, and the threat of war.

Yes, the Palestinians suffer. It is also true there is no such thing as a disproportionate call to genocide- and that is what Israelis face every day and have faced for decades.

If that is to change, then that change must come from within. We cannot cajole or buy their civilized behavior.

Democracies and free nations are built on the blood of patriots- and that does not mean our blood.

As to your remarks re the Arab world, you are right on the money.

100

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:52:59pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Did McSpiff say this family was disproportionately responding to anyone?

If not, why would you ask him that?

I don’t feel that Israel doing ‘whatever it takes’ to avoid the danger of attacks by Hamas is okay. That would depend on what ‘whatever’ was.

So am I anti-Israel now too?

Obdi there is context here. I’ll find some more of this guy’s quotes. You might want to refrain from getting into this for a spell, and see what happens.

101

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:53:26pm

re: #93 Fozzie Bear

Poll after poll highlights American racism, bigotry, and hate. That doesn’t make it right, nor does it mean that everyone here is a racist hateful bigot.

If you want to make the people of a region your enemy, fine, I can’t stop you. But they aren’t Germany circa 1939. Unless you have a time machine, pre-emptively committing genocide isn’t permissible.

You don’t have a time machine, do you?

There is bigotry in idea and attitude and there is the bigotry of bombs and terror.

Not the same thing.

102

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:54:19pm

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

Well let’s talk about Israel’s disproportionate responses. You have been quite vocal about that in the past. Now is not the time to shrink away.

Please tell me, how that family was disproportionally responding to anyone.

Please tell me how when this is a reality over there that Israelis live with everyday, how is doing whatever it takes to avoid the very real danger of things like that happening, disproportionate?

Then you can tell me how the Blue helmets will protect people.

Hey, you should start your own blog where you can control all of the discussion topics. Maybe log in under different account names so you have absolute control over the opinions that other people present.

103

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:55:30pm

re: #89 researchok

The problem nowadays is that Jews who think like that are few in numbers.

They were all killed.

The only ones left are those will fight back and not wait to be slaughtered.

Bummer.

So the only way that Jews can exist in the world is to kill everybody else. Man, I guess I’d better convert before they get around to us… /

104

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:55:41pm

re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote

OK here is a gem dick wad.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Yeah innocent people who were no where near the tree got shot by terrorists under the watchful eye of the blue helmets… but it’s a joke.

Except I was serious, you’re just ignorant of history. When the US had a similar incident with North Korea, they respond with a show of force and it worked out rather well. Operation Paul Bunyan

or here is another Gem
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

As if Israel targets civilians and we laugh at it, or don’t care when innocent people get hurt.

That was for you labeling a reporting as Hezzbollah with no facts to back that. Haven’t produced any either.

And here is another you duplicitous asswad,

You want some more?

I don’t even see any context or mention of Israel there, so I’ll just ignore that I guess.

105

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:55:48pm

re: #100 LudwigVanQuixote

Obdi there is context here. I’ll find some more of this guy’s quotes. You might want to refrain from getting into this for a spell, and see what happens.

Did you read what he posted above?

106

Boondock St. Bender Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:55:49pm

re: #97 Aceofwhat?

As mom and dad look on…dad ponders the 15 quid he was too cheap to pay for condoms…

107

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:56:05pm

re: #104 McSpiff

PIMF: reporter.

108

DaddyG Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:56:34pm

Poster boy there is obviously a fan of more than one German import. Nazism and Beer.

109

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:56:36pm

re: #106 Boondock St. Bender

As mom and dad look on…dad ponders the 15 quid he was too cheap to pay for condoms…

“Hey, Bruce…are your nipples hard too?”

110

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:56:54pm

re: #101 researchok

There is bigotry in idea and attitude and there is the bigotry of bombs and terror.

Not the same thing.

Then there’s the kind where you suggest that bombing Germany prior to WWII would have been a good idea, implicitly drawing a comparison between Germany and Palestine.

If you want to go down the “lets commit genocide” rhetorical path, go ahead. Just don’t be surprised if people point out that this is exactly what you are doing.

111

Wozza Matter? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:57:31pm

i’ll regret this in the morning - but this is all this conversation seems to be for me.

Youtube Video

112

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:57:55pm

re: #99 researchok

Yes, the Palestinians suffer. It is also true there is no such thing as a disproportionate call to genocide- and that is what Israelis face every day and have faced for decades.

You’ve been making calls to genocide for this entire thread.

You know what’s another big part of the problem? Bloodthirsty psychos in America cheering for murder and calling for more and more blood. Speaking of which…

re: #99 researchok

Democracies and free nations are built on the blood of patriots- and that does not mean our blood.

Speak for yourself about not being a patriot. I consider myself one.

113

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:58:02pm

re: #110 Fozzie Bear

We did bomb Germany before WWII. It was called WWI.

114

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:58:24pm

re: #103 elbruce

So the only way that Jews can exist in the world is to kill everybody else. Man, I guess I’d better convert before they get around to us… /

I’m seeing a string of replies to comments which make no sense as a reply to that comment.

Why don’t you all start over?

115

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:58:24pm

Sorry everyone, Charles. I just find me being labeled as anti-Israeli ridiculous. I’ve made my point and will go back to scrolling over LVQ.

116

DaddyG Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:58:32pm

re: #90 Boondock St. Bender

caption contest for the blubbery nazi in the header

Mein Paunch

117

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:58:35pm

re: #112 elbruce

You misread him. He has not called for genocide, and the patriot comment meant that it will take Palestinian patriots, not US patriots, to reform Palestine.

118

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:58:58pm

re: #114 EmmmieG

I’m seeing a string of replies to comments which make no sense as a reply to that comment.

Why don’t you all start over?

or better yet…abandon the silly thing altogether!

119

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:59:03pm

re: #116 DaddyG

Mein Paunch

I would get it’s own reality show at this rate.

120

zora Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:00:24pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

What are Israeli flags and Jewish activists doing at demonstrations sponsored by the English Defence League?

They’re an extremist terrorist group. Very nasty folks.

wow! i was hoping that was one of geller’s lies.

121

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:00:26pm

re: #110 Fozzie Bear

Then there’s the kind where you suggest that bombing Germany prior to WWII would have been a good idea, implicitly drawing a comparison between Germany and Palestine.

See, if that happened, then the British would end up partitioning Palestine to give a safe home to the few remaining German people who managed to survive researchok’s genocidal campaign of mass murder. We’d end up with the same thing with the languages switched around.

122

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:00:40pm

re: #96 elbruce

The people over there who are the problem think exactly like you do. Just with the names switched around. It’s starting to look like you’re just another one of them, except that you just happen to want to mass-murder a different group than they do. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t care which populace you want to slaughter, I’m against it.

Yes, and you just want Jews to not respond until there is enough of their blood (determined by who, I wonder) before they can respond and meet with your approval.

As for your mass murder remark, you are a lying sack of shit. Never, ever, have I promoted the idea of mass murder for the sake of murder.

Israelis aren’t calling for genocide- Arabs are.

Israelis aren’t calling for no Palestinian state- Arabs are calling for the eradication of Israel.

Israelis aren’t calling for the subjugation of Muslims- Arabs are calling for the subjugation of Jews.

Wanna play some more? I can go on all day.

For the record, I am not a Jew (very lapsed COE now), though my ancestors were Spanish/Portuguese Sephardim.

A distant relative was murdered in Munich.

Yeah, I know, it was his fault.

123

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:01:00pm

I’d note, Ludwig, that because you have decided this thread should be about the incident in Israel, people reading the thread are losing a chance to learn more about the EDL.

I’m really loathe to suggest you create a page for the sole purpose of attacking another lizard, but I don’t think taking over the thread— when the attack in Israel is not even the topic— is a good way of doing things.

124

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:01:10pm

re: #98 McSpiff

You came around on the flotilla incident. I missed that post. I’ll give you credit for it rather than posting some of your earlier and much less balanced posts on the topic.

I almost wrote, I suppose you were disappointed that there weren’t enough “goods” that time to fit your preconceptions of Israel.

But that would be deeply uncharitable.

So let’s say that I take you at your word, because I had missed that post.

In fact, actually that post showed a lot of thought.

Too bad you came out with all the crap about the cross border shooting later.

Look, you have written a lot of shitty things here on the topic. But, I will have to give you credit when it is due.

125

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:01:16pm

re: #117 Obdicut

You misread him. He has not called for genocide, and the patriot comment meant that it will take Palestinian patriots, not US patriots, to reform Palestine.

He said:

re: #84 researchok

Yeah, we shouldn’t have gone to war with Germany because the Germans “..not homogeneous in belief, only location.”

Here is the deal. Poll after poll highlight Palestinian racism, bigotry and hate. Hamas won an election, fair and square- and it isn’t as if they were hiding their racist agenda. That agenda is broadcast day and night in their media, schools and from many religious pulpits.

Still, you have point. Please advise me as to the moderate Palestinians you refer. What political party do they belong to? Who are their noble and courageous leaders? Where are the documents that might enshrine freedom liberty and democracy? Where are the documents that would enshrine religious freedom?

Yes, Hamas was elected fair and square. The Nazi came to power by the manipulation of free elections too.

Had we bombed the shit out of Berlin in 1939, 50 MILLION lives might have been spared.

But who cares, right?

If that isn’t an implicit endorsement of genocide, then I’m a ham sandwich.

126

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:01:19pm

re: #119 EmmmieG

I would get it’s own reality show at this rate.

It would…PIMF

127

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:01:31pm

re: #102 elbruce

Hey, you should start your own blog where you can control all of the discussion topics. Maybe log in under different account names so you have absolute control over the opinions that other people present.

Nah, that’s something you would do.

128

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:02:20pm

re: #103 elbruce

So the only way that Jews can exist in the world is to kill everybody else. Man, I guess I’d better convert before they get around to us… /

No, Jews can exist in a world and environment that won’t tolerate racism, hate, bigotry and calls to genocide.

Anything else I can clear up for you?

129

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:02:28pm

re: #123 Obdicut

I’d note, Ludwig, that because you have decided this thread should be about the incident in Israel, people reading the thread are losing a chance to learn more about the EDL.

I’m really loathe to suggest you create a page for the sole purpose of attacking another lizard, but I don’t think taking over the thread— when the attack in Israel is not even the topic— is a good way of doing things.

This is a fantastic point. You are completely correct.

130

HoosierHoops Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:02:29pm

The first time I call recall the Pali’s using terrorism was at the 1972 Olympics.
It was a horrible wake up call to the world.. They haven’t stopped since 1972.
I can’t recall the State of Israel ever using terrorism to Rule in the West Bank or Gaza..I find their actions under impossible circumstances the best any nation could do…I feel sorry for them…
If the Pali’s were launching rockets, Blowing up Pizza joints and City Bus’s in America..It would be all over for them…

131

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:02:36pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

I think that we should have a caption contest. We don’t do that enough.

Gotta throw this one in whenever I see that pic.

132

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:02:46pm

re: #125 Fozzie Bear

Had we bombed the shit out of Berlin in 1939, we would not have committed genocide.

So how is it a call to genocide?

133

Stanghazi Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:03:35pm

re: #129 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks LVQ. I can put off work for a while longer.

134

First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:03:43pm

re: #97 Aceofwhat?

“Yep, that’s my haggis…just toss it over here”

“You must be this tall to ride The Cyclone.”

135

Aceofwhat? Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:04:58pm

re: #134 negativ

“You must be this tall to ride The Cyclone.”

“Ok, let’s limber up. Arm circles, to the right, one-two-three-four…to the left, one-two-three-four”

136

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:05:18pm

re: #125 Fozzie Bear

He said:

re: #84 researchok

If that isn’t an implicit endorsement of genocide, then I’m a ham sandwich.

Yes, you are a ham sandwich.

After the Holocaust, it should be clear that no nation in the civilized world ought to tolerate racism, bigotry and calls to genocide.

That’s the whole point. Hama, et al, would not exist if we refused to give them and their racist ideologies any kind of recognition or credibility.

Is that a hard concept for you to grasp?

137

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:07:27pm

re: #132 Obdicut

Had we bombed the shit out of Berlin in 1939, we would not have committed genocide.

So how is it a call to genocide?

Wait…didn’t we bomb the crap out of Germany from 1941 to 1945?

138

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:07:49pm

re: #132 Obdicut

Had we bombed the shit out of Berlin in 1939, we would not have committed genocide.

So how is it a call to genocide?

Actually, yes, we would have. We would have been bombing a (so far) non agressive power in pursuit of preventing something we had no fucking idea was coming.

In hindsight, sure, it’s permissible. But time is unidirectional. At the time, we had no idea, and it still would have been wrong to act as though we knew what was coming, because we couldn’t have known, and we didn’t know.

(When I say 1939, I mean before Germany invaded anyone, not after)

139

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:07:52pm

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

Let me be brutally clear on the Tree Clearing Incident. I consider it a direct parallel to the Axe murder incident in the Korean DMZ. What’s that mean? Israel was engaged in action explicitly allowed by the UN when their troops were murdered by those on the other side of the line. I support Israel doing a show of force similar to Operation Paul Bunyon to show that they will exercise their rights as they see fit.

What I don’t agree with, have not agreed with, and will not agree without explicit proof being provided is that the UN peacekeepers on site were directly engaged or providing support for the attack on the IDF. Everything I’ve seen shows the attack was solely the action of the Lebanese army.

140

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:08:07pm

re: #110 Fozzie Bear

Then there’s the kind where you suggest that bombing Germany prior to WWII would have been a good idea, implicitly drawing a comparison between Germany and Palestine.

If you want to go down the “lets commit genocide” rhetorical path, go ahead. Just don’t be surprised if people point out that this is exactly what you are doing.

My reference to bombing Berlin was rhetorical.

My point was that we ought not recognize, deal with or give credibility to any nation who espouses racism, bigotry, hate and calls to genocide as part of their identity.

If we marginalize those nations, you can be assured that they will not empower those kind of people again.

141

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:09:12pm

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Actually, yes, we would have. We would have been bombing a (so far) non agressive power in pursuit of preventing something we had no fucking idea was coming.

But that’s not genocide.

142

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:09:25pm

re: #136 researchok

Yes, you are a ham sandwich.

After the Holocaust, it should be clear that no nation in the civilized world ought to tolerate racism, bigotry and calls to genocide.

That’s the whole point. Hama, et al, would not exist if we refused to give them and their racist ideologies any kind of recognition or credibility.

Is that a hard concept for you to grasp?

Actually, the hard concept for me to grasp is your call to bomb people who might attack us, rather than ones who have. Unless you have provable psychic powers, of course. Then it’s totally cool.

Do you have psychic powers?

143

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:09:38pm

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Actually, yes, we would have. We would have been bombing a (so far) non agressive power in pursuit of preventing something we had no fucking idea was coming.

In hindsight, sure, it’s permissible. But time is unidirectional. At the time, we had no idea, and it still would have been wrong to act as though we knew what was coming, because we couldn’t have known, and we didn’t know.

(When I say 1939, I mean before Germany invaded anyone, not after)

So what do you say now? Palestinian and many Arab states make clear their intent when it comes to Jews and other minorities.

How should we respond?

144

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:10:32pm

re: #143 researchok

So what do you say now? Palestinian and many Arab states make clear their intent when it comes to Jews and other minorities.

How should we respond?

Not by bombing the shit out of them.

145

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:10:33pm

re: #136 researchok

After the Holocaust, it should be clear that no nation in the civilized world ought to tolerate racism, bigotry and calls to genocide.

Let’s review what you said in #63

The Palestinians- and much of the Arab world are enemies. They do not share our values. They care little for human right and have no issue with state sponsored racism, bigotry and hate.
They are not moral equals to us or anyone else in the civilized world.

PERIOD.

Not Hamas - “the Palestinians and much of the Arab world.” You’re maligning entire populations, stating that they are our enemies, and claiming that they have some sort of morally deficient nature. Not because of what some have done, but because of who those populations are.

146

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:10:49pm

re: #141 Obdicut

But that’s not genocide.

Ah, I see. He was only proposing bombing a nation that had not yet attacked us in uninhabited areas? Clearly I must have misread him. It’s just the open fields of Germany that he has a problem with. Can’t say I blame him, those cows piss me off too.

147

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:11:37pm

re: #142 Fozzie Bear

Actually, the hard concept for me to grasp is your call to bomb people who might attack us, rather than ones who have. Unless you have provable psychic powers, of course. Then it’s totally cool.

Do you have psychic powers?

Again, we ought to wait until some major violence occurs? Ought Iran be allowed nuclear programs?

When Nasrallah says, ‘It is good there are so many Jews in Israel, it will save us the trouble of rounding them up’, ought the Israelis wait till Hizbollah attacks?

148

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:11:40pm

re: #143 researchok

So what do you say now? Palestinian and many Arab states make clear their intent when it comes to Jews and other minorities.

How should we respond?

How about we start by taking the “wipe them all out” (i.e. genocide) option off the table, hmm?

Then it won’t feel like i’m talking to a lunatic.

149

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:12:29pm

re: #146 Fozzie Bear

Yes, that’s ‘all’ he was proposing.

Calling it ‘genocide’ diminishes what genocide is. By those standards, we committed genocide in Iraq and in Bosnia.

150

zora Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:14:08pm

re: #139 McSpiff

Let me be brutally clear on the Tree Clearing Incident. I consider it a direct parallel to the Axe murder incident in the Korean DMZ. What’s that mean? Israel was engaged in action explicitly allowed by the UN when their troops were murdered by those on the other side of the line. I support Israel doing a show of force similar to Operation Paul Bunyon to show that they will exercise their rights as they see fit.

What I don’t agree with, have not agreed with, and will not agree without explicit proof being provided is that the UN peacekeepers on site were directly engaged or providing support for the attack on the IDF. Everything I’ve seen shows the attack was solely the action of the Lebanese army.

i remember this thread. everyone agreed that it was fucked up what happened to the idf while attempting the cut down the tree. the only contention was whether the media and un peacekeepers were complicit in an ambush.

151

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:14:25pm

I have been in a deeply not good mood these past couple of days.

There are only so many drooling Nazis I can be bombarded with before I get cranky.

There really is only so much data I can read about how the world as we know it, really is ending, no joke, no hyperbole, marching towards a cliff and all the civilization we have strived for through the milenia will be gone - because people are too fucking stupid to do otherwise.

This is my fucking job. I measure everyday, how we are killing ourselves.
And the data just keeps getting worse.

I come here and I watch my nation shrink into madness. The data comes in everyday and keeps getting worse. These neo-nazi shit rags are going to gain traction in the congress and the senate. We do not have the time to get them out of office, repair the damage they cause and then start worrying about the civilization ending problem.

That is just a fact.

We are going to die for the stupid reasons of other stupid people.

I’m not making an excuse for being so irascible. However, I realize that my frustration is turning to utter anger and hatred.

So that said, I am going to sign off for a while.

152

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:14:27pm

re: #145 elbruce

Let’s review what you said in #63

Not Hamas - “the Palestinians and much of the Arab world.” You’re maligning entire populations, stating that they are our enemies, and claiming that they have some sort of morally deficient nature. Not because of what some have done, but because of who those populations are.

Yes I am.

Arab world media, schools and pulpits make very clear their intentions.

Yeah, we should not have interfered with Hitler because there were German dissidents.

Brilliant.

With whom shall we deal? Where are they? What power do they have? How popular are they?

I understand- you have to find a way to justify your support of racists and bigots. I get it.

153

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:15:56pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Not by bombing the shit out of them.

Or by bombing the shit out of them for real like America would do, and then they would think twice.

154

McSpiff Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:16:48pm

re: #150 zora

i remember this thread. everyone agreed that it was fucked up what happened to the idf while attempting the cut down the tree. the only contention was whether the media and un peacekeepers were complicit in an ambush.

Yup, that’s how I gained the anti-Israeli label. That and making a fool out of LVQ a few times over the past few weeks. It happens, I’m not too worried about it.

155

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:17:18pm

re: #149 Obdicut

Yes, that’s ‘all’ he was proposing.

Calling it ‘genocide’ diminishes what genocide is. By those standards, we committed genocide in Iraq and in Bosnia.

Considering that no distinction is made between military assets and civilians in his post, yes, he was calling for genocide. He was advocating bombing Palestine (the place), not Hamas, the organization.

re: #84 researchok

Yeah, we shouldn’t have gone to war with Germany because the Germans “..not homogeneous in belief, only location.”

Here is the deal. Poll after poll highlight Palestinian racism, bigotry and hate. Hamas won an election, fair and square- and it isn’t as if they were hiding their racist agenda. That agenda is broadcast day and night in their media, schools and from many religious pulpits.

Still, you have point. Please advise me as to the moderate Palestinians you refer. What political party do they belong to? Who are their noble and courageous leaders? Where are the documents that might enshrine freedom liberty and democracy? Where are the documents that would enshrine religious freedom?

Yes, Hamas was elected fair and square. The Nazi came to power by the manipulation of free elections too.

Had we bombed the shit out of Berlin in 1939, 50 MILLION lives might have been spared.

But who cares, right?

Read that post again. Seriously.

That’s a call for genocide, clear as day.

156

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:17:20pm

re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote

You know, your mood is not germane.

What matters is your morality and sense of right and wrong and ethics.

You and I disagree on all kinds of political stuff, but not on the real issues of what is moral and what is ethical.

I have big respect for that.

157

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:18:38pm

re: #153 LudwigVanQuixote

Or by bombing the shit out of them for real like America would do, and then they would think twice.

Afghanistan says different.

The soviets bombed the shit out of them for a long time.

Didn’t work.

The soviets burned towns, shot children, tortured people.

Didn’t work.

158

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:19:10pm

re: #155 Fozzie Bear

Define “genocide” for me.

159

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:19:32pm

re: #157 Obdicut

Afghanistan says different.

The soviets bombed the shit out of them for a long time.

Didn’t work.

The soviets burned towns, shot children, tortured people.

Didn’t work.

Well, clearly they weren’t angry enough. Maybe if they hated them harder, and blamed them for more things, as a group, it would have worked.

160

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:20:38pm

re: #143 researchok

So what do you say now? Palestinian and many Arab states make clear their intent when it comes to Jews and other minorities.

How should we respond?

You probably know that I am an ardent supporter of Israel, that I even identify as a Zionist, even though I am neither Jewish nor religious, nor have ever been to Israel.

I am VERY frustrated by the level of ignorance/prejudice directed at Israel, especially the double-standard that it’s OK for the Arabs to retaliate for “occupation”, but not for Israel to blockade Gaza, erect the wall, and establish check points. Living in the San Francisco Bay Area, I am constantly bombarded with anti-Israel propaganda that borders on anti-Semitism at any given time. I should say that I am disgusted as well.

Secondly, I will readily admit that it is hard to see how the Palestinians would want peace, with all the negative media flowing out of the Middle East and the United States in general. It is also difficult for me to comprehend how some lizards call for peace while applying a double-standard against Israel, especially given the ugly fact that some of these lizards probably identify more with the liberal than conservative camp.

All that said, I think it’s very true that in order for Palestine to become free, as in not subjected to the blockade and other NECESSARY safety measure, change will have to come from within. Hamas will have to be overthrown or at least reduced to a level of insignificance. Same with Fatah. Same with the PLO. Etc. Carpet bombing Gaza, or rounding up Arabs in the West Bank is not the answer though. I am 110% confident that Israel wants peace, but not so confident with the Palestinians. I think Oslo failed because the Arabs didn’t want peace at all. That is the sticking point here. Peace definitely needs a partner, but past history shows that Israel is alone in this regard. And yes, the Palestinians suffer terribly because of it.

161

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:20:57pm

re: #155 Fozzie Bear

Considering that no distinction is made between military assets and civilians in his post, yes, he was calling for genocide. He was advocating bombing Palestine (the place), not Hamas, the organization.

re: #84 researchok

Read that post again. Seriously.

That’s a call for genocide, clear as day.

PAY ATTENTION:

I’ve noted earlier that

‘My reference to bombing Berlin was rhetorical.

My point was that we ought not recognize, deal with or give credibility to any nation who espouses racism, bigotry, hate and calls to genocide as part of their identity.

If we marginalize those nations, you can be assured that they will not empower those kind of people again.’

Now, how about we discuss your clear support for groups whoi make calls to genocide, racism and bigotry.

How do you feel about other racial groups?

162

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:22:41pm

re: #158 Obdicut

Define “genocide” for me.

Wiping out a group (or nation) of people without regard for distinctions between military and civilian, combatant and non. When a call is made to bomb an area (not with fluffy hamsters, but bombs that are designed to kill and maim people) rather than a state or a military, because the people there are “bad people”, that sounds a hell of a lot like a call for genocide to me.

163

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:23:24pm

re: #162 Fozzie Bear

You think that bombing Berlin would wipe out a nation, or the German people?

164

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:24:21pm

re: #160 eclectic infidel

You probably know that I am an ardent supporter of Israel, that I even identify as a Zionist, even though I am neither Jewish nor religious, nor have ever been to Israel.

I am VERY frustrated by the level of ignorance/prejudice directed at Israel, especially the double-standard that it’s OK for the Arabs to retaliate for “occupation”, but not for Israel to blockade Gaza, erect the wall, and establish check points. Living in the San Francisco Bay Area, I am constantly bombarded with anti-Israel propaganda that borders on anti-Semitism at any given time. I should say that I am disgusted as well.

Secondly, I will readily admit that it is hard to see how the Palestinians would want peace, with all the negative media flowing out of the Middle East and the United States in general. It is also difficult for me to comprehend how some lizards call for peace while applying a double-standard against Israel, especially given the ugly fact that some of these lizards probably identify more with the liberal than conservative camp.

All that said, I think it’s very true that in order for Palestine to become free, as in not subjected to the blockade and other NECESSARY safety measure, change will have to come from within. Hamas will have to be overthrown or at least reduced to a level of insignificance. Same with Fatah. Same with the PLO. Etc. Carpet bombing Gaza, or rounding up Arabs in the West Bank is not the answer though. I am 110% confident that Israel wants peace, but not so confident with the Palestinians. I think Oslo failed because the Arabs didn’t want peace at all. That is the sticking point here. Peace definitely needs a partner, but past history shows that Israel is alone in this regard. And yes, the Palestinians suffer terribly because of it.

re: #144 Obdicut

Not by bombing the shit out of them.

I never suggested that. My belief is that we ought ti make clear that until civilized behavior is maintained, we will not negotiate or attempt to ‘buy’ that good behavior.

This is not asking for much. As a rule, the Palestinians sound very reasonable when addressing the world in languages other than their own. It is when they speak to their on people the true colors of racism and bigotry emerge.

165

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:24:43pm

re: #161 researchok

PAY ATTENTION:

I’ve noted earlier that

‘My reference to bombing Berlin was rhetorical.

My point was that we ought not recognize, deal with or give credibility to any nation who espouses racism, bigotry, hate and calls to genocide as part of their identity.

If we marginalize those nations, you can be assured that they will not empower those kind of people again.’

Now, how about we discuss your clear support for groups whoi make calls to genocide, racism and bigotry.

How do you feel about other racial groups?

Why don’t you establish that “clear support” with evidence first? Go ahead, find where I have supported Hamas. I’ll wait.

Not everybody that disagrees with you is supporting your enemies. You might want to ease back a bit before you accidentally call for bombing civilians again.

166

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:25:58pm

re: #163 Obdicut

You think that bombing Berlin would wipe out a nation, or the German people?

Bombing a city would kill a hell of a lot of people. Shall we quibble some more over whether those deaths qualify as “bad” or ultra bad”?

167

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:32:19pm

re: #165 Fozzie Bear

Why don’t you establish that “clear support” with evidence first? Go ahead, find where I have supported Hamas. I’ll wait.

Not everybody that disagrees with you is supporting your enemies. You might want to ease back a bit before you accidentally call for bombing civilians again.

Have you repudiated them? Do you consider them as a legitimate regime? Have you made any demands of them? Do you consider them as equals, moral or otherwise, to the Israelis? Do you believe they have the best interest of the Palestinians at heart?

Have a record of criticizing the overt racism and bigotry- and not just as it relates to the question when Israel comes up?

If you really are interested in Mid East reality, see these. They are redacted work product.

* Birth Of A Nation, A Garden Blooms
* Temptations And Choices
* The Poison
* The Promise
* The Third Rail Of Palestinian Failure

168

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:34:08pm

re: #147 researchok

Again, we ought to wait until some major violence occurs? Ought Iran be allowed nuclear programs?

When Nasrallah says, ‘It is good there are so many Jews in Israel, it will save us the trouble of rounding them up’, ought the Israelis wait till Hizbollah attacks?

Preventive war is a war crime.

169

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:34:36pm

re: #164 researchok

re: #144 Obdicut

I never suggested that. My belief is that we ought ti make clear that until civilized behavior is maintained, we will not negotiate or attempt to ‘buy’ that good behavior.

This is not asking for much. As a rule, the Palestinians sound very reasonable when addressing the world in languages other than their own. It is when they speak to their on people the true colors of racism and bigotry emerge.

I stand corrected on that point - should have read up more. I’ll do that next time around, especially on such a contentious issue.

That said, I agree. No money should be given to the Palestinian Authority till it cleans up its own house first. Period.

170

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:35:14pm

re: #166 Fozzie Bear

Bombing a city would kill a hell of a lot of people. Shall we quibble some more over whether those deaths qualify as “bad” or ultra bad”?

While I am not advocating bombing cities (I need to repeat that for you) are you implying that 50 million lives saved would not be a god enough reason?

Would you be willing to kill someone to save you parents, child, grandparents, or friend if they were in danger?

171

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:35:16pm

re: #166 Fozzie Bear

Bombing a city would kill a hell of a lot of people. Shall we quibble some more over whether those deaths qualify as “bad” or ultra bad”?

It’s not a quibble to say that you’re calling things that aren’t genocide genocide.

Don’t do it. It minimizes real genocides.

172

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:37:18pm

re: #168 elbruce

Preventive war is a war crime.

I hear you.

Of course the law doesn’t bear you out. Preemptive strikes and war are perfectly legal.

Of course that ought to change. The Jews in Israel just ought to accept the idea they are fair game.

173

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:38:16pm

re: #166 Fozzie Bear

Bombing a city would kill a hell of a lot of people. Shall we quibble some more over whether those deaths qualify as “bad” or ultra bad”?

Sure, no question about the loss of life on a large scale. But how does that equate with genocide?

174

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:39:24pm

re: #167 researchok

Have you repudiated them? Do you consider them as a legitimate regime? Have you made any demands of them? Do you consider them as equals, moral or otherwise, to the Israelis? Do you believe they have the best interest of the Palestinians at heart?

Have a record of criticizing the overt racism and bigotry- and not just as it relates to the question when Israel comes up?

If you really are interested in Mid East reality, see these. They are redacted work product.

* Birth Of A Nation, A Garden Blooms
* Temptations And Choices
* The Poison
* The Promise
* The Third Rail Of Palestinian Failure

Are we playing 20 questions now?

I’ll answer your questions, after you first establish that your assertion that I support Hamas in any way, since it is of course, “completely clear”.

Here, i’ll quote your accusation here:

Now, how about we discuss your clear support for groups whoi make calls to genocide, racism and bigotry.

Since you have absolutely no reason to believe this, I will assume that you just conflated me with a regime which seeks the Annihilation of the Jewish people based on nothing other than the fact that I disagree with you that all Palestinians are manifestly evil.

For the record, I am not a fan of Hamas. I find them detestable. I also don’t like Nazis, the KKK, Satan, and Stalin. Are there any other evil entities I have to call out for you to not accuse me of being one of them?

175

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:39:29pm

re: #165 Fozzie Bear

Why don’t you establish that “clear support” with evidence first? Go ahead, find where I have supported Hamas. I’ll wait.

Not everybody that disagrees with you is supporting your enemies. You might want to ease back a bit before you accidentally call for bombing civilians again.

PAY ATTENTION:

I’ve noted earlier that

‘My reference to bombing Berlin was rhetorical.

My point was that we ought not recognize, deal with or give credibility to any nation who espouses racism, bigotry, hate and calls to genocide as part of their identity.

If we marginalize those nations, you can be assured that they will not empower those kind of people again.’

Nice try, though. I understand why you want to paint me the way you do.

How’s that working out for you?

176

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:41:43pm

re: #174 Fozzie Bear

Are we playing 20 questions now?

I’ll answer your questions, after you first establish that your assertion that I support Hamas in any way, since it is of course, “completely clear”.

Here, i’ll quote your accusation here:

Since you have absolutely no reason to believe this, I will assume that you just conflated me with a regime which seeks the Annihilation of the Jewish people based on nothing other than the fact that I disagree with you that all Palestinians are manifestly evil.

For the record, I am not a fan of Hamas. I find them detestable. I also don’t like Nazis, the KKK, Satan, and Stalin. Are there any other evil entities I have to call out for you to not accuse me of being one of them?

Where exactly have you noted your distaste for Hamas?

I will concede that in all likelihood you find the Nazis, KKK, et al, not your cup of tea.

177

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:45:03pm

re: #176 researchok

Where exactly have you noted your distaste for Hamas?

As for me, my health insurance doesn’t cover ideological purity litmus tests. However, I’d think that the fact that I oppose advocates of murder should cover it. That very much includes them. As well as those who want to kill all Palestinians because of them.

178

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:46:58pm

re: #176 researchok

He just did note his distaste of Hamas.

So right there.

Also, it’s reasonable to assume people dislike Hamas, without needing an open display of such.

179

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:47:23pm

re: #170 researchok

While I am not advocating bombing cities (I need to repeat that for you) are you implying that 50 million lives saved would not be a god enough reason?

Would you be willing to kill someone to save you parents, child, grandparents, or friend if they were in danger?

No, it wouldn’t be a good enough reason, because it is not a reasonable reason. Nobody knew what was going to happen, so it would have been mass murder, not war. The end does not justify the means.

If I had a time machine and absolute certainty of the results of my actions, sure. But we don’t live in that world.

I would kill to save family, sure, but I wouldn’t kill someone because a psychic assured me that that person would attack my family several months from now. Why not? Because psychics aren’t real, and you can’t rewrite the past.

We know now what we know. We knew then what we knew then. Nobody apart from a very small number of people in Germany knew what was about to happen.

WWII happened as it had to happen, because that’s just what happened. It’s a hell of a shame, but that’s human nature. Sometimes we turn on each other in horrifying and unforeseeable ways.

180

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:48:13pm

re: #176 researchok

Where exactly have you noted your distaste for Hamas?

I will concede that in all likelihood you find the Nazis, KKK, et al, not your cup of tea.

Where have you noted your distaste for Satan? I never saw it. Therefore, you are in league with Satan.

181

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:49:49pm

re: #145 elbruce

Let’s review what you said in #63

Not Hamas - “the Palestinians and much of the Arab world.” You’re maligning entire populations, stating that they are our enemies, and claiming that they have some sort of morally deficient nature. Not because of what some have done, but because of who those populations are.

Was it only Hamas partying in the streets and gleefully shreiking death chants after 9-11?

182

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:50:53pm

re: #181 Spare O’Lake

Was it only Hamas partying in the streets and gleefully shreiking death chants after 9-11?

An excellent point. Since the truth of this cannot be determined, we should kill everyone who lives there. /

183

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:57:39pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear

Where have you noted your distaste for Satan? I never saw it. Therefore, you are in league with Satan.

That’s funny.

Not much in the way of critical thinking though.

184

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:01:59pm

re: #183 researchok

That’s funny.

Not much in the way of critical thinking though.

So is it assumed that I am in agreement with every group I have not decried? Lets start with first premises. Is it reasonable to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is necessarily a supporter of a terrorist organization? A yes or no answer will suffice.

185

Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:20:16pm

re: #172 researchok

I hear you.

Of course the law doesn’t bear you out. Preemptive strikes and war are perfectly legal.

Of course that ought to change. The Jews in Israel just ought to accept the idea they are fair game.

Actually, a war of agression is indeed a war crime under international law. Hence, the Bush Administration’s condemnation of the ICC.

But hey, it’s not a crime if John Woo says it isn’t, I guess.

186

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:26:20pm

re: #181 Spare O’Lake

Was it only Hamas partying in the streets and gleefully shreiking death chants after 9-11?

Right, it’s not like we have any murderous bigots on our side, do we? By the way, could you step up on this pedestal for a moment? Thanks.

As I was saying to the class… the existence of murderous bigots like this one on our side doesn’t mean that we’re morally deficient as a people. Just as the existence of murderous bigots over there doesn’t mean they are. Now, their murderous bigots will use examples like this guy to suggest that we all are horrible and out to kill them all. Similarly, such murderous bigots as this one will use theirs to suggest that they are all horrible and out to kill us all. As this one has indeed just done.

Every population has assholes. And their assholes and our assholes want to draw all of them and all of us into a fight with each other. The thing to remember is it’s not Islam vs. the West. It’s reasonable people (in both Islam and the West) vs. the assholes (in both Islam and the West). This is what the real enemy looks like, right here.

Thanks Spare O’Lake, you can step down now.

187

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:28:24pm

re: #172 researchok

Preventive war is a war crime.

I hear you.

Of course the law doesn’t bear you out. Preemptive strikes and war are perfectly legal.

You didn’t hear me at all. Preventive war is a war crime. Preemptive war is a different thing, and is allowable. You were arguing for the former, not the latter. Just because they sound similar does not mean they’re the same thing.

188

tnguitarist Tue, Aug 31, 2010 4:00:24pm

re: #181 Spare O’Lake

Was it only Hamas partying in the streets and gleefully shreiking death chants after 9-11?

No. it was every single Muslim on the face of this planet.

snark tag shouldn’t be needed

189

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 6:06:43pm

re: #184 Fozzie Bear

So is it assumed that I am in agreement with every group I have not decried? Lets start with first premises. Is it reasonable to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is necessarily a supporter of a terrorist organization? A yes or no answer will suffice.

No. There is your once word answer.

Now, anyone who assigns any kind of moral equivalency to the Palestinian leadership and the Israelis is indeed a bigot and a supporter of terror.

Clear enough?

190

researchok Tue, Aug 31, 2010 6:08:06pm

re: #187 elbruce

You didn’t hear me at all. Preventive war is a war crime. Preemptive war is a different thing, and is allowable. You were arguing for the former, not the latter. Just because they sound similar does not mean they’re the same thing.

The idea that any kind of preventive war is illegal is widely disputed- and rejected by many legal scholars.

191

elbruce Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:38:19pm

re: #190 researchok

The idea that any kind of preventive war is illegal is widely disputed- and rejected by many legal scholars.

Name two.

Wikipedia:

A preventive war or preventative war is a war initiated to prevent another party from attacking, when an attack by that party is not imminent or known to be planned. Preventive war aims to forestall a shift in the balance of power by strategically attacking before the balance of power has a chance to shift in the direction of the adversary. Preventive war is distinct from preemptive war, which is first strike when an attack is imminent. Preventive war undertaken without the approval of the United Nations is illegal under the modern framework of international law, though Robert Delahunty and John Yoo from the George W. Bush administration maintained in their discussion of the Bush Doctrine that these standards are unrealistic.

Other than those two assholes.

Quick reminder: Japan’s bombing of Pearl Harbor was an example of preventive war. So were Germany’s invasions of Denmark and Norway. So was Egypt starting the Six-Day War. Why do you think it’s good?

192

ClaudeMonet Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:46:45am

re: #36 researchok

No one person ever speaks for all of us Jews. We’re not exactly organized like many religions. One of our classic jokes is, “What do you have when you have 10 Jews in a room? 17 opinions.”

Pamela Geller speaks for us least of all. There is no doubt in my mind that she is completely insane.

Spy Mode Auto

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