Pat Metheny: The Way Up LIVE - Opening

Seoul, South Korea, 2004
Music • Views: 24,595

YouTube

The last time I posted a concert video by Pat Metheny I got an email from his manager asking me to take it down because it had been posted at YouTube without their permission, in violation of copyright. Of course I immediately did so — the last thing I want is to take anything away from Pat or his music.

This one is posted on Pat’s official YouTube channel, though, so I’m pretty sure it’s OK. And it’s a gem of a performance of the opening section of Pat’s extended composition, The Way Up.

This film was shot during the Asian leg of the 2004 tour in Seoul, Korea. It is a special documentation of the Pat Metheny Group featuring Pat Metheny, Lyle Mays, Steve Rodby, Antonio Sanchez, Cuong Vu, Gregoire Maret, and Nando Lauria.

Musicians: Pat Metheny, Lyle Mays, Steve Rodby, Antonio Sanchez, Cuong Vu, Gregoire Maret, and Nando Lauria.

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156 comments
1 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 2:54:39pm

I’m almost afraid to comment less someone e-mails me to take it down!!!
/

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:04:43pm
3 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:23:44pm

Pat rocking the essential striped shirt motif.

4 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:23:46pm
5 Bear  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:45:51pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Better driver than most drivers.
//

6 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:47:00pm
7 Bear  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:48:32pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

Where?

8 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:52:02pm

re: #7 Bear

Where?

Looks like on both Twitter and comment #6 !!

9 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:54:32pm


Fortunately, it’s harvest time for the green chile.

10 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 3:56:02pm

That’s the Devetashka Cave in Bulgaria.

11 Bear  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:01:28pm

re: #10 Charles Johnson

Thanks.

12 Gus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:26:26pm

Hey, you know. Waiting for congress to come back on the 9th of September is bullshit. We’ve 5 USN destroyers out there and 1 amphibious ship full of Marines. Russia has 2 destroyers on its way including 1 carrier. They need to get their freaking lazy asses back to DC and figure this thing out. This can easily blow up into a very serious situation. I felt more confident with the POTUS being the sole man at the helm.

13 blueraven  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:30:17pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

I just bought some Hatch chiles the other day, roasted them and used them in Carne Guisada, served with mashed potatoes, green beans and home made tortillas. Yum!

Need to go get some more before they are all gone.

14 kirkspencer  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:30:29pm

re: #12 Gus

Hey, you know. Waiting for congress to come back on the 9th of September is bullshit. We’ve 5 USN destroyers out there and 1 amphibious ship full of Marines. Russia has 2 destroyers on its way including 1 carrier. They need to get their freaking lazy asses back to DC and figure this thing out. This can easily blow up into a very serious situation. I felt more confident with the POTUS being the sole man at the helm.

It is because this could blow up into a very serious situation that the POTUS has requested congressional action. Oh, and there’s some political buy-in; this significantly reduces partisan backstabbing.

But attacking another nation with military force is de facto an act of war, and wars have a habit of not going to plan.

15 jaunte  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:33:09pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

There are some caves like that in Belize that you can take tubing trips through.

16 Gus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:33:38pm

re: #14 kirkspencer

It is because this could blow up into a very serious situation that the POTUS has requested congressional action. Oh, and there’s some political buy-in; this significantly reduces partisan backstabbing.

But attacking another nation with military force is de facto an act of war, and wars have a habit of not going to plan.

I see it more as our typical, lazy, no good for nothing politicians.

17 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:33:51pm

re: #15 jaunte

There are some caves like that in Belize that you can take tubing trips through.

And get rid of your hubby in if the honeymoon isn’t going well!!!!
/

18 Gus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:34:20pm

UN report won’t be ready for 3 weeks. They’re still a joke. House working only 9 days.

19 compound_Idaho  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:36:53pm

re: #14 kirkspencer

It is because this could blow up into a very serious situation that the POTUS has requested congressional action. Oh, and there’s some political buy-in; this significantly reduces partisan backstabbing.

But attacking another nation with military force is de facto an act of war, and wars have a habit of not going to plan.

This situation is perfectly suited to a response by the United Nations …… oh, never mind.

20 Gus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:39:20pm

Hmm. bbl

21 sagehen  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:39:37pm

Everyone on MSNBC is really disappointed the missiles aren’t flying already — the anchor, the field reports, the senators and congressmen they’ve got calling in, the military “experts” they’ve brought in to discuss it… When did hawkishness become the liberal position?

Oh. Wait. They’re a fully-owned subsidiary of GE-Westinghouse, right? And Westinghouse builds missiles or guidance systems or something?

Understood.

22 Bear  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:40:29pm

All this talk of war makes me sick. What ever happened to the supposed peace loving nation?

23 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:42:04pm

re: #22 Bear

All this talk of war makes me sick. What ever happened to the supposed peace loving nation?

It’s really possible to think that missile strikes are the best chance of ending the civil war and achieving peace. You can think it’s wrong, but a lot of ‘hawks’ are hawks not because of bloodlust but because they think there are a lot of things worth fighting for, in this case including attacking anyone who uses chemical weapons.

24 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:43:55pm

re: #13 blueraven

I just bought some Hatch chiles the other day, roasted them and used them in Carne Guisada, served with mashed potatoes, green beans and home made tortillas. Yum!

Need to go get some more before they are all gone.

They’re never all gone. There’s frozen at the store year ‘round! Of course, roasting and pealing your own is best, but we eat it more often when it’s handy in the freezer or fridge.

But the smell this time of year cannot be reproduced. Every grocery store and many restaurants have their roasters going. Last year’s Christmas parade had a chile roaster float.

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

25 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:44:07pm

“No, you idiot, I meant YOUR left!”

Algonquin Battleship

26 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:47:25pm

How about a bicycle component thread?

27 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:49:06pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Isn’t that supposed to be a river?

28 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:50:40pm

re: #26 Ojoe

How about a bicycle component thread?

Are you some kind of crank?

29 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:52:05pm

re: #28 wrenchwench

Are you some kind of crank?

I hope you can get a handle on this before we have to give you the gears.

30 kirkspencer  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:52:43pm

re: #22 Bear

All this talk of war makes me sick. What ever happened to the supposed peace loving nation?

Pretty much never existed. We are a nation born in war, and have been in constant conflict for most of our existence.

31 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:53:42pm

re: #29 b_sharp

I hope you can get a handle on this before we have to give you the gears.

Well spoken.

32 Bear  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:54:01pm

re: #30 kirkspencer

How true.

33 blueraven  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:54:43pm

re: #24 wrenchwench

They’re never all gone. There’s frozen at the store year ‘round! Of course, roasting and pealing your own is best, but we eat it more often when it’s handy in the freezer or fridge.

But the smell this time of year cannot be reproduced. Every grocery store and many restaurants have their roasters going. Last year’s Christmas parade had a chile roaster float.

[Embedded content]

Oh that roaster is too cool. Yes, I have frozen some in past years. I will probably buy a big bag full and freeze some.
I guess you can find them frozen in the supermarkets here but I have never really looked.

34 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:56:30pm
35 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:57:01pm

re: #31 wrenchwench

Well spoken.

Sorry, I was just taking a short brake.

36 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:58:31pm

re: #34 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Kinda like a slow chile roaster…..

37 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:58:48pm

re: #30 kirkspencer

Applicable to the Middle East as well. It’s why when I hear people talk about stability in the region I can’t help but *facepalm* because there hasn’t been such a thing. It’s a region that has had war in some form ongoing for years on end - whether its the Arab-Israeli conflicts most people associate with the region or civil wars, insurgencies, or failed states with warlords lording over regions.

Markets want predictability. They want to know that whoever in charge in country X will do what they think others in his position would do.

38 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:02:08pm

re: #34 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Now I’m having S.T.A.L.K.E.R. flashbacks.

39 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:05:28pm


The irony is completely lost on this one. Apparently the NSA’s wish to “…own the Internet” is solved by applying all of $67m in FY2013 to the task. In a multibillion dollar appropriations, that’s a rounding error.

Some people just want the NSA to be blind to what goes on online (or via other elint). Doesn’t matter that some real bad actors may use those means and methods to communicate. They just think that whatever the NSA is doing is somehow violating their rights.

All while the same companies that provide services like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and any other major company, is using every kind of data tracking it can to monetize your interactions. And if you’re accessing the services via a smartphone, then GPS is linked to all the other data to better track what the user does online.

40 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:10:12pm

re: #35 b_sharp

Sorry, I was just taking a short brake.

That’s a shifty excuse.

41 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:11:28pm

re: #39 lawhawk

[Embedded content]


The irony is completely lost on this one. Apparently the NSA’s wish to “…own the Internet” is solved by applying all of $67m in FY2013 to the task. In a multibillion dollar appropriations, that’s a rounding error.

Some people just want the NSA to be blind to what goes on online (or via other elint). Doesn’t matter that some real bad actors may use those means and methods to communicate. They just think that whatever the NSA is doing is somehow violating their rights.

All while the same companies that provide services like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and any other major company, is using every kind of data tracking it can to monetize your interactions. And if you’re accessing the services via a smartphone, then GPS is linked to all the other data to better track what the user does online.

$67m and perhaps a few thousand employees “owning the internet” is like me and a few buddies “owning the beach” with a bucket and some shovels.

42 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:14:06pm

Hey everyone…Howie Kurtz is trying out for one of the Fox News “comedy” shows now:

43 sagehen  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:15:13pm

Question for the emoprog dudebros who are so totally outraged that the gov’t might swim past their data while searching for whatever it is they’re searching for…

How do these guys feels about stop & frisk, which 90% of the people stopped and frisked the cops can’t even find an excuse for further action, and 80% of the ones who the cops *do* find an excuse it’s a few joints. Less than 2% have anything that could be considered a weapon (and that includes swiss army knives, snowscrapers, or scissors)

44 kirkspencer  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:15:23pm

re: #39 lawhawk

[Embedded content]


The irony is completely lost on this one. Apparently the NSA’s wish to “…own the Internet” is solved by applying all of $67m in FY2013 to the task. In a multibillion dollar appropriations, that’s a rounding error.

[snip by Kirk]

Actually, I think the problem is big number numbness. Six or more digits is the same number: “big”. A million and a billion and a trillion are closer together than 1 and 100.

There are tricks and methods of coping but they tend to work only an an individual basis. In the meantime people see a government agency moving a few million dollars and boggle. And hence comes the certainty that the government is wasting our money, because how else can you hide $67 million?

45 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:15:29pm

re: #42 bratwurst

Hey everyone…Howie Kurtz is trying out for one of the Fox News “comedy” shows now:

[Embedded content]

I have to agree with earlier sentiments, there will be an effort, no matter how anemic, to link Obamacare to authorization for military strikes. Watch some shitkicker from BFE try to argue that the cost of those strikes would be “offset” by defunding Obamacare.

46 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:17:23pm

re: #42 bratwurst

lolwut?

Kurtz is getting weird.

47 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:21:15pm

We get to watch a three ring circus in operation in a few days. Congress has to pass a budget or a continuing resolution, raise the debt ceiling, and weigh on whether or not to authorize military strikes on Syria, all within a 2-3 week period.

Yeah, I can see why Obama’s actions are mostly, if not purely, political in nature where it concerns Syria. On the other hand, why spend political capital when you don’t have to?

48 Bubblehead II  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:32:31pm

Lest we forget.

KAL 007

30 years tomorrow

People die. Wether it is at the hand of their own Government or anothers is irelevant (see war on drugs).

I have been quite on this situation, but feel compelled to speak out. This isn’t our mess.

Maybe it is time for the Middle East Governments to actually stand up and do their job and police their own?

Hell we have given how many BILLIONS of dollars in arms and training to them? What the Fuck are they doing with it?

Perhaps instead of arguing about if we should be the one going in, the question should be when the hell are the UAE and Saudia Arabia going to do somethime about it?

* Edit.

Enough of our Men and Women have died or been wounded. Let these people clean up their own mess.

*crickests*

Just my 2 cents worth.

49 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:32:58pm

re: #47 Targetpractice

Yeah, I can see why Obama’s actions are mostly, if not purely, political in nature where it concerns Syria. On the other hand, why spend political capital when you don’t have to?

I’m not sure he is expending political capital. At least not very much. He’s positioning his administration as having tried to do something about the gassing of civilians, so that in 2016 the GOP can’t paint him as a Neville Chamberlain. He gets to answer the demands of all sides this way, acceding to calls that he go through Congress while forcing the GOP to go on the record. No resolution can pass without the GOP promise not to filibuster in the Senate and majority GOP support in the House.

50 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:35:25pm

re: #49 goddamnedfrank

I’m not sure he is expending political capital. At least not very much. He’s positioning his administration as having tried to do something about the gassing of civilians, so that in 2016 the GOP can’t paint him as a Neville Chamberlain. He gets to answer the demands of all sides this way, acceding to calls that he go through Congress while forcing the GOP to go on the record. No resolution can pass without the GOP promise not to filibuster in the Senate and majority GOP support in the House.

And with the GOP set to “chronic backstabbing” mode, the odds of it passing a resolution authorizing military strikes with any haste are remote. Boehner once again is gonna have to decide just how wedded he is to the “Hastert Rule.”

51 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:37:13pm

re: #47 Targetpractice

We get to watch a three ring circus in operation in a few days. Congress has to pass a budget or a continuing resolution, raise the debt ceiling, and weigh on whether or not to authorize military strikes on Syria, all within a 2-3 week period.

Yeah, I can see why Obama’s actions are mostly, if not purely, political in nature where it concerns Syria. On the other hand, why spend political capital when you don’t have to?

Most serious analysts are off for the weekend but AP does a decent job with this article.
Analysis: For Obama, decision to pull back from the brink in Syria tests credibility

The stunning reversal also raises questions about the president’s decisiveness and could embolden leaders in Syria, Iran, North Korea and elsewhere, leaving them with the impression of a U.S. president unwilling to back up his words with actions.

Action or no action both carry responsibility. Assad has used chemical weapons a couple times without consequence. If Iran or N. Korea interpret this as a blank check then it could cause trouble. This does really look to me like an attempt to share the political blame if things don’t go well. I’m not sure it’s going to work that way. The press is still plenty friendly with Obama but there’s also a long tradition of the press building up idols and then tearing them down. Audiences love that sort of thing.

52 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:37:21pm

re: #46 Charles Johnson

lolwut?

Kurtz is getting weird.

Getting? He’s done gone past weird.

53 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:38:58pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

That’s an amazingly shitty and biased article, so I’m unsurprised to see you post it as ‘pretty good’.

54 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:40:39pm

re: #44 kirkspencer

Actually, I think the problem is big number numbness. Six or more digits is the same number: “big”. A million and a billion and a trillion are closer together than 1 and 100.

There are tricks and methods of coping but they tend to work only an an individual basis. In the meantime people see a government agency moving a few million dollars and boggle. And hence comes the certainty that the government is wasting our money, because how else can you hide $67 million?

Reminds me of Fiver in Watership Down. Just a matter of degree. (Rabbits in the book couldn’t count beyond four.)

55 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:41:41pm

Increasingly, I find that lolwut is the best multi-purpose response to breaking events.

56 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:42:03pm

re: #54 wrenchwench

The audiobook version of that on audible is really, really good. I just got it and listened to it a month or so again. I forget how just tight and perfect that book is, what a great job he does of convincing us that this rabbit culture actually could exist.

57 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:44:52pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Most serious analysts are off for the weekend but AP does a decent job with this article.
Analysis: For Obama, decision to pull back from the brink in Syria tests credibility

Action or no action both carry responsibility. Assad has used chemical weapons a couple times without consequence. If Iran or N. Korea interpret this as a blank check then it could cause trouble. This does really look to me like an attempt to share the political blame if things don’t go well. I’m not sure it’s going to work that way. The press is still plenty friendly with Obama but there’s also a long tradition of the press building up idols and then tearing them down. Audiences love that sort of thing.

The press would tear him into for going to war without Congressional approval and against public opinion, for pissing off the Russians, for acting without UN approval, and so on. Saying the only way he maintains some credibility is by acting just like the guy he criticized up and down the campaign trail is ludicrous.

58 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:48:29pm

re: #48 Bubblehead II

Lest we forget.

KAL 007

30 years tomorrow

People die. Wether it is at the hand of their own Government or anothers is irelevant (see war on drugs).

I have been quite on this situation, but feel compelled to speak out. This isn’t our mess.

Maybe it is time for the Middle East Governments to actually stand up and do their job and police their own?

Hell we have given how many BILLIONS of dollars in arms and training to them? What the Fuck are they doing with it?

Perhaps instead of arguing about if we should be the one going in, the question should be when the hell are the UAE and Saudia Arbia are going to do somethime about it?

*crickests*

Just my 2 cents worth.

Because people die is not an excuse to turn a blind eye to it. We routinely take steps to limit the dangers of everyday life in an effort to reduce the number of deaths. We do it not because we assume we can eliminate deaths but because we feel a moral imperative to address those deadly events fueled by our ability to feel empathy.

If a stranger contracts cancer because of HPV, we can always exclaim “it isn’t our fight” and refuse to fund research or to support vaccinations but that isn’t what we do.

It is the responsibility of the other countries in the area to take steps to resolve the Syrian conflict, but it also our responsibility by dint of our choice of being part of the global community. Perhaps military intervention is the wrong practical choice right now, but watching 400 children who have no connection with whatever evil is raging in the area die because of actions taken that could be preventable if very hard, emotionally, to accept.

If military intervention is not an acceptable solution, then suggest another, because doing nothing may be a choice but it isn’t a solution.

59 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:50:41pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

Saying the only way he maintains some credibility is by acting just like the guy he criticized up and down the campaign trail is ludicrous.

Nobody’s saying that. However, both action and no action carry responsibility and potential pitfalls.
Here’s another decent article.
Five big consequences of the president’s call to let Congress decide about America’s Syrian intervention.
#5 is a particularly interesting point.

60 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:51:19pm

I have a feeling this Syria crisis is going to end for Obama’s critics the same way these things usually do - with egg all over the critics’ faces.

I would not be surprised if Obama’s pretty familiar with Sun Tzu - I see him using tactics from the Art of War all the time, and his opponents fall for them every time.

61 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:51:39pm

re: #58 b_sharp

Perhaps military intervention is the wrong practical choice right now, but watching 400 children who have no connection with whatever evil is raging in the area die because of actions taken that could be preventable if very hard, emotionally, to accept.

Is it preventable, though? We can probably stop the use of chemical weapons, but are you confident we can end the civil war and that afterwards there will be stable conditions?

62 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:53:21pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

That is because they took more Bible study instead of reading historic texts like The Art of War.

63 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:54:22pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

As a consequence of all of the above, even if the president “wins” and persuades Congress to support his extremely limited action in Syria, the perception of America as a nimble, forceful actor on the world stage and that its president is a man whose word carries great weight is likely to be diminished.

Hah. America is perceived as ‘nimble?’ America that has gotten bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq and has just recently, painfully, pulled itself away from those conflicts is ‘nimble’?

64 jaunte  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:54:57pm

re: #63 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Yes, I was wondered where ‘nimble’ came from.

65 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:55:01pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

The press would tear him into for going to war without Congressional approval and against public opinion, for pissing off the Russians, for acting without UN approval, and so on. Saying the only way he maintains some credibility is by acting just like the guy he criticized up and down the campaign trail is ludicrous.

Exactly. There are huge differences between Syria and Libya too. In Libya we had a UN resolution and majority NATO support. If Obama didn’t ask Congress and did this on his own authority he’d be going in with no international orgs running interference and only France as wingman. The fallout from that would be devastating. This way the Congressional Republicans get a chance to back up their rhetoric with a vote, and when they once again decide that obstructing Obama is more important than being consistent they’ll be the ones that own the next Assad regime atrocity.

66 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:55:03pm

So I was doing some poking around on ye olde Internets earlier today and I discovered that Barrett Brown has the EXACT same birthday I do.

Of all the people…

67 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:55:14pm

re: #63 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Nimble as a battleship.

68 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:56:24pm

I read The Art of War in high school because my debating coach recommended it. A revelation.

69 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:57:30pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Nobody’s saying that. However, both action and no action carry responsibility and potential pitfalls.
Here’s another decent article.
Five big consequences of the president’s call to let Congress decide about America’s Syrian intervention.
#5 is a particularly interesting point.

The article could be boiled down into one line: “Bush was right.” Its a bunch of hawks trying to argue why Obama causing the rubble to bounce in Syria on his own initiative is the only way things would out for the better. That the political consequences of unilateral action are preferable, because it maintains this idea of the US as the 600lb gorilla that stands ready to savage anyone that looks at it the wrong way.

70 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:58:00pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

I read it after the late James Clavell used it liberally in his novel, “Noble House.”

71 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:58:35pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

I read The Art of War in high school because my debating coach recommended it. A revelation.

“Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.”

72 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 5:59:01pm

I should hate it, but I love the photo with this tweet:

73 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:00:14pm

The thing about The Art of War is that it’s not really about war.

/cryptic zen mode

74 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:00:29pm

re: #72 wrenchwench

Same photo in WSJ article. online.wsj.com

75 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:00:52pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout


#5 is a particularly interesting point.

It really isn’t.

5. America’s international standing will likely suffer.

As a consequence of all of the above, even if the president “wins” and persuades Congress to support his extremely limited action in Syria, the perception of America as a nimble, forceful actor on the world stage and that its president is a man whose word carries great weight is likely to be diminished.

Except in the real world this is what the world has come to hate about America. Rothkopf is deliberately confusing how domestic hawks see the US with post Iraq international opinion. The two visions aren’t at all similar. The vast majority of the world wants a thoughtful US that uses it’s power only as an extension of the United Nation’s express will and after much deliberation. They’re incredibly tired of seeing us engage in near unilateral uses of force.

76 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:01:49pm

re: #61 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Is it preventable, though? We can probably stop the use of chemical weapons, but are you confident we can end the civil war and that afterwards there will be stable conditions?

Perhaps I should have said ‘may’ be preventable.

There is no guarantee that steps taken will lead to peace in Syria.

But then we seldom expect a guarantee before we take steps.

77 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:02:23pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

Plus, if the GOP is actually a serious party, they should have been discussing real options already, they should be ready to work with the president. Instead, since they’re jackoffs, they’ve been just criticizing whatever the fuck has been going down. But anyway, get them up to speed, have the debate, act. The civil war hasn’t just been going on for a few days. The use of chemical weapons changes things but it’s not some ultimate strategic game-changer that will now allow Assad to crush the opposition.

78 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:02:51pm

re: #74 PhillyPretzel

Same photo in WSJ article. online.wsj.com

Thanks!

It’s mind-expanding to think of that guy with his weapon by the window watching the same speech the dudebros watched.

79 kirkspencer  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:04:48pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

The article could be boiled down into one line: “Bush was right.” Its a bunch of hawks trying to argue why Obama causing the rubble to bounce in Syria on his own initiative is the only way things would out for the better. That the political consequences of unilateral action are preferable, because it maintains this idea of the US as the 600lb gorilla that stands ready to savage anyone that looks at it the wrong way.

It’s David Rothkopf in Foreign Policy. Bush was right, Obama is always wrong, the rich are rich because they should be.

80 Lidane  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:05:01pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

The press would tear him into for going to war without Congressional approval and against public opinion, for pissing off the Russians, for acting without UN approval, and so on. Saying the only way he maintains some credibility is by acting just like the guy he criticized up and down the campaign trail is ludicrous.

THIS. SO MUCH.

The guy can’t win. If he goes in guns blazing and bombs flying, the press and the pundit class tear him a new asshole for it, and the 2014 election becomes about how much of an out of control tyrant he is. If he FOLLOWS THE CONSTITUTION and goes to Congress to get authority to strike, he’s weak, loses credibility, gives Syria a win, blah blah blah.

Fuck these people sideways. I’m not thrilled with any military action in Syria, but these people need to make up their goddamn minds. They can’t have it both ways.

81 jaunte  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:07:46pm

re: #74 PhillyPretzel

Separately, Syria’s deputy prime minister, Kadri Jamil, said Mr. Obama’s announcement proved the U.S. is no longer the superpower that it is represented to be.

“This muddied political position has made a mockery of the U.S. administration all over the world,” said Mr. Jamil in an interview from Damascus with the Lebanon-based news channel Al-Mayadeen.
online.wsj.com

Trying to think of a U.S. middle east policy position that Kadri Jamil couldn’t characterize in exactly the same way.

82 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:08:01pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

I read The Art of War in high school because my debating coach recommended it. A revelation.

I read it the first time along with Musashi’s Book of Five Rings after reading Lustbader’s first Ninja book. I later reread it after running into references to it in the military history I was studying in high school.

83 Bubblehead II  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:08:15pm

Charles, e have00a poblem hetrref=”/showc/58/10145752” class=”rep”>#58 b_sharp

Because people die is not an excuse to turn a blind eye to it. We routinely take steps to limit the dangers of everyday life in an effort to reduce the number of deaths. We do it not because we assume we can eliminate deaths but because we feel a moral imperative to address those deadly events fueled by our ability to feel empathy.

If a stranger contracts cancer because of HPV, we can always exclaim “it isn’t our fight” and refuse to fund research or to support vaccinations but that isn’t what we do.

It is the responsibility of the other countries in the area to take steps to resolve the Syrian conflict, but it also our responsibility by dint of our choice of being part of the global community. Perhaps military intervention is the wrong practical choice right now, but watching 400 children who have no connection with whatever evil is raging in the area die because of actions taken that could be preventable if very hard, emotionally, to accept.

If military intervention is not an acceptable solution, then suggest another, because doing nothing may be a choice but it isn’t a solution.

84 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:09:00pm

re: #77 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Plus, if the GOP is actually a serious party, they should have been discussing real options already, they should be ready to work with the president. Instead, since they’re jackoffs, they’ve been just criticizing whatever the fuck has been going down. But anyway, get them up to speed, have the debate, act. The civil war hasn’t just been going on for a few days. The use of chemical weapons changes things but it’s not some ultimate strategic game-changer that will now allow Assad to crush the opposition.

If the GOP were a serious party, they’d be back to work no later than Monday to begin deliberations. But they’re not, so they’re going to remain on vacation for another week, then return to bitch about to the press about how Obama is making America look bad by not addressing the “red line” in a speedy fashion.

85 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:09:24pm

re: #79 kirkspencer

It’s David Rothkopf in Foreign Policy. Bush was right, Obama is always wrong, the rich are rich because they should be.

Hah, i hadn’t noticed that was him. Every week he’s got an article about how Obama is completely blowing something. He’s one of the most knee-jerk anti-Obama guys out there.

I read another shitty article of his awhile back, on how Obama had totally screwed up with Brazil by not promising to support them for UN security counsel. He said that no one would hold him to that promise because it didn’t mean anything— and now in this article he’s bloviating about how it’s so important Obama keep his word.

His last article is titled:

Too Little, Too Late

What Assad’s chemical attack and the failure of Obama’s Syria policy really mean.

86 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:10:45pm

re: #79 kirkspencer

It’s David Rothkopf in Foreign Policy. Bush was right, Obama is always wrong, the rich are rich because they should be.

Right, that guy. He’s one reason why I don’t check Foreign Policy much any more.

87 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:11:07pm

re: #81 jaunte

Trying to think of a U.S. middle east policy position that Kadri Jamil couldn’t characterize in exactly the same way.

I was unaware that one of the definitions of “superpower” is liberal use of military force. By that measure, Russia is more of a “superpower” than America.

88 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:11:38pm

Later, lizards.

89 Lidane  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:12:30pm

re: #77 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

if the GOP is actually a serious party

Youtube Video

90 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:12:42pm

re: #87 Targetpractice

I was unaware that one of the definitions of “superpower” is liberal use of military force. By that measure, Russia is more of a “superpower” than America.

Let’s see his tune in a week or so.
;)

91 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:14:53pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

Right, that guy. He’s one reason why I don’t check Foreign Policy much any more.

It’s funny, he’s obviously a very smart man, but he just can’t get away from starting with the conclusion that Obama is fucking up.

This article by him is very good:
|

nytimes.com

Except that he’s using it to criticize Obama, while repeating many things that Obama himself has said. It’s a really weird problem he’s got.

92 sagehen  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:15:29pm

re: #75 goddamnedfrank

The vast majority of the world wants a thoughtful US that uses it’s power only as an extension of the United Nation’s express will and after much deliberation. They’re incredibly tired of seeing us engage in near unilateral uses of force.

The vast majority of the world wants a US whose political leadership doesn’t look and sound like a bunch of 6-year-olds in a fucking sandbox. They’re not particularly reassured that at least there’s one grownup trying to keep the six-year-olds from throwing all their toys every which way.

What S&P said about our economy when they downgraded the credit rating… is what the middle east is saying now about our military — the nation’s fundamentals are all there, but political dysfunction is makes those fundamentals irrelevant. They’re unreliable.

93 Lidane  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:17:30pm
94 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:17:39pm

re: #73 Charles Johnson

The thing about The Art of War is that it’s not really about war.

/cryptic zen mode

Indeed. It’s about how to succeed in relationships.

95 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:18:13pm

This is a thought-provoking read: Repeal the War Powers Resolution.

96 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:18:44pm

re: #94 lawhawk

Indeed. It’s about how to succeed in relationships.

“Even the finest sword plunged into salt water will eventually rust.”

97 jaunte  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:20:09pm

re: #95 Charles Johnson

“…As satisfying as it might be in the short term to hobble the president, both parties would come to regret the consequences of such political combat, not least because it would shift greater responsibility for military action onto a Congress that in the long run may not want it…”

98 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:22:56pm

re: #96 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

“Even the finest sword plunged into salt water will eventually rust.”

That’s what she said.

99 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:23:01pm

re: #63 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Seems to me we can get in and out of conflicts nimbly enough. (Grenada/Panama/Kuwait) It’s the nation building that bogs us down.

100 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:23:25pm

re: #79 kirkspencer

It’s David Rothkopf in Foreign Policy. Bush was right, Obama is always wrong, the rich are rich because they should be.

By the way, I don’t think you can accuse him of saying that the rich are rich because they should be. He stresses how much luck and connections have to do with it, and if you read the article I linked in the times, it’s actually quite astute. He just has a die-hard conviction that anything Obama does is bad, or too late, or not enough, or he said it wrong.

101 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:25:14pm

re: #95 Charles Johnson

This is a thought-provoking read: Repeal the War Powers Resolution.

It’s a strong argument for its repeal or at the very least for the opposition party not to invoke it every time the guy in the White House chooses to address an international incident with military force. But that’s asking both parties to take a tool out of their ratfuckery arsenals and we know how loathe they are to part with one of those.

102 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:25:32pm

Rosh Hashana is right around the corner, and it’s time to get clarity (sung to Get Lucky by Daft Punk):

Youtube Video

103 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:25:53pm

re: #79 kirkspencer

It’s David Rothkopf in Foreign Policy. Bush was right, Obama is always wrong, the rich are rich because they should be.

Radical Clintonista Wingut!

He joined the Clinton Administration in 1993 as Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce for International Trade Policy and Development.

Capitalist scum!

104 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:26:12pm

I had been away from just taking some fun pictures lately. So Thursday I caught a break at work and captured a rose in fire. Just for a less serious moment. Paged.

105 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:27:11pm

re: #99 Political Atheist

Seems to me we can get in and out of conflicts nimbly enough. (Grenada/Panama/Kuwait) It’s the nation building that bogs us down.

Not a single soldier lost in Kosovo.

106 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:27:17pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce for International Trade Policy and Development.

How the hell did that fit on his office door!?!?!
/

107 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:28:02pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

re: #106 sattv4u2

Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce for International Trade Policy and Development.

How the hell did that fit on his office door!?!?!
/

Business cards must be the size of a billboard!!

108 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:28:17pm

re: #99 Political Atheist

Seems to me we can get in and out of conflicts nimbly enough. (Grenada/Panama/Kuwait) It’s the nation building that bogs us down.

Grenada had like 90,000 people in it, Grenada And Kuwait was occupied by Saddam for seven goddamn months, Panama had a couple of million people and wasn’t in the middle of a civil war.

Seriously, Kuwait? Seven months and a UN resolution. That’s nimble?

109 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:28:33pm

re: #106 sattv4u2

Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce for International Trade Policy and Development.

How the hell did that fit on his office door!?!?!
/

“Who’s this guy?”
“He’s the Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce for…for…aw fuck it, his name is Dave.”

110 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:29:03pm

re: #105 prairiefire

Not a single soldier lost in Kosovo.

Right or darn close. I think we lost some airmen in a crash. But yeah I should have included that one. NATO stepped up strong.

111 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:29:23pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

“Who’s this guy?”
“He’s the Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce for…for…aw fuck it, his name is Dave.”

By the time they announce he’s in the room the meeting adjourned!!

112 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:30:04pm

re: #96 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

“Even the finest sword plunged into salt water will eventually rust.”

re: #98 Pavlovian Hive Mind

That’s what she said.

Youtube Video

113 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:30:10pm

re: #104 Political Atheist

I had been away from just taking some fun pictures lately. So Thursday I caught a break at work and captured a rose in fire. Just for a less serious moment. Paged.

That is very cool!

114 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:30:27pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

Radical Clintonista Wingut!

Capitalist scum!

No, as I said, and linked above, he writes some very smart, good stuff. But even on occasions where he agrees with Obama, he somehow winds up criticizing him.

He’s a very smart guy, he can write well, but he has some sort of problem with Obama that really biases him.

I’m not sure how you can have missed this, it’s pretty obvious from just a quick glance at what he’s written.

115 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:30:49pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

“Who’s this guy?”
“He’s the Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce for…for…aw fuck it, his name is Dave.”

lol

116 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:32:46pm

re: #108 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Seriously, Kuwait? Seven months and a UN resolution. That’s nimble?

Compared to IraqII, Afghanistan, Vietnam, yes. And why is the existence of a civil war or not important? All I’m doing is drawing a distinction between war or conflict and that plus nation building or regime change as far as getting bogged down goes.

118 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:34:55pm

re: #116 Political Atheist

Compared to IraqII, Afghanistan, Vietnam, yes.

Okay, well, that seems like an unusuably broad definition of ‘nimble’. Are you saying that if we now take 7 months and get a UN resolution, that’d be a nimble response?

And why is the existence of a civil war or not important? All I’m doing is drawing a distinction between war or conflict and that plus nation building or regime change as far as getting bogged down goes.

What is the purpose of intervening against Assad if he then goes on to win the civil war?

119 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:35:07pm

re: #117 Pavlovian Hive Mind

Nebraska Republican lawmaker: My ‘gut feeling’ says Syria got chemical weapons from Iraq

Facepalm.

They’re just never going to let this one drop. They’ve been looking for some way, any way, to vindicate wasting hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of American lives on a fucking wild goose chase.

120 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:35:57pm

Slate via Der Spiegel: NSA spied on al Jazeera.

And the illegality of this is what? There is none. Hacking in and trying to figure out what AJ reports on, the sources used, and utilizing a network of contacts a foreign media outlet has cultivated and can include sources that the US intel community couldn’t or hasn’t been able to access.

The article is designed to provoke outrage against the US in spying on journalists and reporting agencies, even though AJ was, up until recently, the mouthpiece of a foreign government - Qatar.

Would it surprise me that the NSA hacked into Press IR as well? Or other state-government media outlets in the Middle East? AJ is just one of the larger ones, but it’s hardly alone.

And it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that foreign governments are attempting to do the same to US media outlets to do the same. You know - learn who those unnamed official sources that leak bits and pieces of information that find their way into stories we read about on a daily basis, etc. as well as the information that the media outlets haven’t published - working notes, interviews, etc. All useful intel.

121 Kragar  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:37:58pm

‘Libtard’-hating police chief’s suspension extended indefinitely

The Patriot-News reported on Friday that the Gilberton City Council voted unanimously to keep Mark Kessler on suspension for “using borough property for non-borough purposes without prior borough permission” until they can meet with his attorney, Joseph Nahas, citing a scheduling conflict for scuttling a planned Aug. 30 meeting.

The meeting was to be held four days after video surfaced of Kessler shooting at a picture of a clown he called “libtard Eric,” after council vice-president Eric Boxer. Council president Daniel Malloy was also reportedly represented in another of Kessler’s targets in the video.

Kessler told the Los Angeles Times his videos — which include him shooting at pictures he identified as House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and Secretary of State John Kerry — constitute peaceful political speech.

But while he has attracted supporters, at least one activist group, Keystone Progress, told the Times it had collected more than 23,000 signatures on a petition calling for him to be fired, saying Kessler’s supporters may retaliate with violence if the council moves to oust him.

“You can’t have a police chief that intimidates at least half of the population,” Keystone Progress executive director Michael Morrill said to the Times.

122 Lidane  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:39:28pm

re: #117 Pavlovian Hive Mind

Nebraska Republican lawmaker: My ‘gut feeling’ says Syria got chemical weapons from Iraq

Facepalm.

Shelf lives, how the fuck do they work?

123 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:40:27pm

re: #122 Lidane

Shelf lives, how the fuck do they work?

They’re called elections, but unfortunately like a bad grocery store, voters keep putting new stickers on the same expired goods.

124 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:42:04pm

re: #118 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, well, that seems like an unusuably broad definition of ‘nimble’. Are you saying that if we now take 7 months and get a UN resolution, that’d be a nimble response?

Um not really we are not yet in conflict in Syria yet at all. Unless we got some spec ops guys in there anyway. Ask me about “nimble” when it’s over and I’m not forecasting. If we get a resolution (which looks unlikely) and the goal is to deter chem weapon use…

What is the purpose of intervening against Assad if he then goes on to win the civil war?

The President will define the purpose. Chem weapon deterrence maybe just as has been said. And air attacks proved pretty nimble and effective in Libya. So we have a recent positive example of a nimbly run conflict. Excludes the combat aftermath by definition.

125 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:43:13pm

re: #113 Killgore Trout

Thanks much.

126 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:44:13pm

re: #104 Political Atheist

Great photos. Really great catch/get.

My latest photo batch is nothing so illuminating. Just more photos from lower Manhattan, including the WTC and some super ornate architectural details that often get overlooked during the daily grind.

127 kirkspencer  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:44:50pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

Radical Clintonista Wingut!

Capitalist scum!

What a comprehensive and overwhelming rebuttal. Please allow me some minor counterpoints. Carville worked for Bill Clinton too. So did Mack McLarty.

And here in 2013 (which is not 1993) Rothkopf still includes an Obama bash in everything he writes, a Bush was Right in almost everything he writes, and a defense of the rich that comes darn close to divine right in the majority of what he writes.

128 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:45:32pm

re: #124 Political Atheist

Um not really we are not yet in conflict in Syria yet at all. Unless we got some spec ops guys in there anyway. Ask me about “nimble” when it’s over and I’m not forecasting. If we get a resolution (which looks unlikely) and the goal is to deter chem weapon use…

Sorry, I don’t get how this applies to what we were talking about. The US isn’t thought of as a nimble actor. We are sometimes thought of as a rash actor, but not really so nimble. The only examples of truly quick and nimble actions were attacks against opponents we absolutely and completely overmatch in every way, and we weren’t entering into an ongoing conflict. Nobody doubts the US ability to bomb somewhere quickly.

What is the purpose of intervening against Assad if he then goes on to win the civil war?

The President will define the purpose. Chem weapon deterrence maybe just as has been said. And air attacks proved pretty nimble and effective in Libya. So we have a recent positive example of a nimbly run conflict. Excludes the combat aftermath by definition.

Okay, so how is it ‘deterrence’ if we just shoot him a bit and then he wins the civil war anyway? The next dictator who uses chemical weapons will say “Well, I think I can handle a few days of strikes, so I’ll go ahead and use the weapons”?

129 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:46:24pm

re: #126 lawhawk

Ever wonder if the Manhattan skyscrapers inspired the obelisk in 2001? I always kinda thought so.

130 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:46:36pm

re: #127 kirkspencer

Is there something of his I haven’t seen that makes you assert the last? He does write about the inevitability of wealth accumulation under our system, but that’s not really a defense of it. I mostly stopped reading him back in 2011, though, so if he has some newer stuff that’s crazier on economics I’d like to know about it.

131 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:47:00pm

re: #117 Pavlovian Hive Mind

Nebraska Republican lawmaker: My ‘gut feeling’ says Syria got chemical weapons from Iraq

Facepalm.

My ‘gut feeling’ says this guy is a nitwit.

132 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:50:15pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

Right, that guy. He’s one reason why I don’t check Foreign Policy much any more.

You’ve been missing out. I would guess 80-90% of the Syria articles over the past week have been arguing against intervention.

133 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:51:34pm

re: #128 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Sorry, I don’t get how this applies to what we were talking about. The US isn’t thought of as a nimble actor. We are sometimes thought of as a rash actor, but not really so nimble. The only examples of truly quick and nimble actions were attacks against opponents we absolutely and completely overmatch in every way, and we weren’t entering into an ongoing conflict. Nobody doubts the US ability to bomb somewhere quickly.

Okay, so how is it ‘deterrence’ if we just shoot him a bit and then he wins the civil war anyway? The next dictator who uses chemical weapons will say “Well, I think I can handle a few days of strikes, so I’ll go ahead and use the weapons”?

I thought we were talking about a point I made that our military can be nimble in conflict-In and out, and that it’s most often the nation creep part that bods us down. Only time can tell us how Syria plays out. I’m really not sure what your problem with that point is.

134 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:56:15pm

re: #133 Political Atheist

I thought we were talking about a point I made that our military can be nimble in conflict-In and out, and that it’s most often the nation creep part that bods us down. Only time can tell us how Syria plays out. I’m really not sure what your problem with that point is.

My problem with that post is that engaging in a civil war is implicitly nation-building.

135 Lidane  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 6:57:21pm
136 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:00:08pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

You’ve been missing out. I would guess 80-90% of the Syria articles over the past week have been arguing against intervention.

Not from Rothkopf:

foreignpolicy.com

We have clearly waited too long to act in Syria. The international community bears at least some responsibility for the losses associated with this most recent gas attack, because in failing to respond to prior attacks it sent a message to Assad that such abuses would be tolerated. (Russia’s role as enabler and protector of Assad has earned it a much greater share of culpability.) And while our guilt over the massive death toll and the suffering caused by the broader humanitarian crisis in Syria is clear, we’ve done precious little to effectively abate it. It is remarkable how little shame there is among U.S. officials, such that even the paltry commitments we made to assist those fighting the criminal regime in Damascus — including providing light weapons and equipment support — have yet to make their way to the conflict zone.

And hah, is that seriously a Newsmax web feed I see on Foreign Policy’s page?

Wow.

137 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:00:19pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

After four 12 hour work days, i get a break tomorrow

I’m only scheduled for 10 hours!!!

{blink}!!!!!

138 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:01:03pm

re: #129 Political Atheist

It’s possible. Lever House appears to have similar proportions to the 1x4x9 of the monolith.

139 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:01:55pm

re: #134 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

We are not and just might not get engaged in it at all. My point covers a longer time than this news story.

140 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:02:22pm

re: #137 sattv4u2

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

After four 12 hour work days, i get a break tomorrow

I’m only scheduled for 10 hours!!!

{blink}!!!!!

You poor rich dude.

141 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:05:32pm

re: #139 Political Atheist

We are not and just might not get engaged in it at all. My point covers a longer time than this news story.

Okay. The US is not known for being ‘nimble’. Gulf I was not nimble, it was very well, planned, very clear, obvious signs and build-up came before it, and while it was very well-executed, it wasn’t nimble. Panama and Grenada I could grant you, but those were boots-on-the-ground invasions of small countries that we overran with massive force.

The US is not considered a ‘nimble’ actor, because most of our military actions are of the non-nimble kind.

142 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:06:21pm

re: #141 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. The US is not known for being ‘nimble’. Gulf I was not nimble, it was very well, planned, very clear, obvious signs and build-up came before it, and while it was very well-executed, it wasn’t nimble. Panama and Grenada I could grant you, but those were boots-on-the-ground invasions of small countries that we overran with massive force.

The US is not considered a ‘nimble’ actor, because most of our military actions are of the non-nimble kind.

Maybe nubile was meant, not nimble.

143 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:06:52pm

re: #140 b_sharp

You poor rich dude.

If by “rich” you mean “full working life, but not a personal one” then yes ,, yes I am

144 sagehen  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:07:21pm

re: #118 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, well, that seems like an unusuably broad definition of ‘nimble’. Are you saying that if we now take 7 months and get a UN resolution, that’d be a nimble response?

What is the purpose of intervening against Assad if he then goes on to win the civil war?

It’s already been two years and we’ve done fuck-all, so yeah… 7 months would have been nimble.

145 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:08:47pm

re: #143 sattv4u2

If by “rich” you mean “full working life, but not a personal one” then yes ,, yes I am

Just happy I could get 2 contradictory labels in.

146 kirkspencer  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:13:11pm

re: #130 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Is there something of his I haven’t seen that makes you assert the last? He does write about the inevitability of wealth accumulation under our system, but that’s not really a defense of it. I mostly stopped reading him back in 2011, though, so if he has some newer stuff that’s crazier on economics I’d like to know about it.

My reading of his “inevitability” is that he believes it right - that while luck and connections play a large part, the pedigree is significant.

I’ve seen the argument that by pedigree he means the accident of being born to wealth, but as I read his discussions it seems to me it’s more a case of having the genetics to be rich and powerful. In other words, the rich are rich because they are supposed to be rich.

147 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:16:40pm

re: #141 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Of the non nimble kind, how many included us nation building or miission crreep? You said intervening in a civil war is nation building. I’d say that is directly proportionate to our involvement. Take Libya. We used our military, and the Libyans are doing the nation building.

What the world thinks of us can be broad brushed as you say. But you broadened my point beyond what I said. I said military conflict. You took that to US policy overall.

My point is our military is capable of being nimble in conflict. It has been in the past even recently. The orders coming may or my not leave that as a likely outcome. Above you mentioned how we can bomb. We can also put other kinds of force into play as long or as briefly as we (really our President and the JCS) choose.

148 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:17:20pm

re: #146 kirkspencer

My reading of his “inevitability” is that he believes it right - that while luck and connections play a large part, the pedigree is significant.

I’ve seen the argument that by pedigree he means the accident of being born to wealth, but as I read his discussions it seems to me it’s more a case of having the genetics to be rich and powerful. In other words, the rich are rich because they are supposed to be rich.

I haven’t gotten that from him, that semi-biological argument. I thought he mainly used pedigree as a factor of something that you tended to find among the ultra-powerful, as in, when asking the question “Is this person a member of the ultra-powerful”, the question “Are they from a family that has had other members of the ultrapowerful”.

Read that New York Times piece of his I posted, and I think that, aside from the reflexive Obama-bashing and refusal to call out the GOP as the systemic pro-wealth-divide party, you’ll like the premise of it. He has often good ideals, but for some reason he can’t bring himself to actually look at the current state of the world and politics, and he just has it in for Obama.

149 Gus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:17:45pm

Bzzzt.


That came across my TL.

150 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:20:12pm

re: #147 Political Atheist

Of the non nimble kind, how many included us nation building or miission crreep? You said intervening in a civil war is nation building. I’d say that is directly proportionate to our involvement. Take Libya. We used our military, and the Libyans are doing the nation building.

Yes. Which brings me back to the question of what good is it to attack him if he then crushes the opposition.

What the world thinks of us can be broad brushed as you say. But you broadened my point beyond what I said. I said military conflict. You took that to US policy overall.

Okay. The US is not viewed as a nimble actor. We’re viewed as a frighteningly reckless actor, though that’s gotten better under Obama, but not as a nimble actor. Nobody doubts the ability of the US military to be nimble in combat, but the piece in the article was talking about our ability to be policy-nimble.

151 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:20:42pm

re: #149 Gus

Bzzzt.

[Embedded content]


That came across my TL.

Boy, that dude is probably fucking up real bad.

152 Gus  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:25:22pm

re: #151 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Boy, that dude is probably fucking up real bad.

Thought about that.

153 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:26:26pm

re: #149 Gus

Bzzzt.

[Embedded content]


That came across my TL.

Protip: If you’re trying to maintain anonymity, don’t wear your nearly unique service record on your chest and sleeve.

154 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:28:36pm

re: #152 Gus

Thought about that.

Combination of rank and ribbons can probably be used to identify him.

155 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:41:55pm

re: #154 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Combination of rank and ribbons can probably be used to identify him.

Probably no one would bother. The uniform is dancing on the line, but the statement is not quite partisan.

156 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 31, 2013 7:53:13pm

re: #155 Decatur Deb

Probably no one would bother. The uniform is dancing on the line, but the statement is not quite partisan.

I hope they don’t got after him. He looks old and tired.


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