Big News: The Impeachment Logjam Is Finally Breaking

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187 comments
1
Mike Lamb  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:33:39am

Insert “Joker ‘Here we go’” gif here

2
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:34:19am

Well here we go.

3
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:36:49am

Good. I think this is the way to go. Way too soon for Articles of Impeachment - not because they’re not deserved, but because of the politics of it.

4
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:37:08am

Nancy’s strategy seems to be to let someone else “talk her into it”…

This is Congress, which is so far removed from our conception of “real life” that we can only begin to figure out what these people are working on…

5
Decatur Deb  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:37:34am

Is ‘Doing the Right Thing’ Worth Increasing the Risk of a Second Trump Term?
nymag.com

Put me down for a “No”. At most, we should have a slow-walk investigation that will not come to vote before the election. I’ll repent and restore my civic virtue after we get rid of these monsters.

6
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:43:37am

re: #3 Blind Frog Belly White

Good. I think this is the way to go. Way too soon for Articles of Impeachment - not because they’re not deserved, but because of the politics of it.

Pelosi is being seen as being dragged to impeachment, undercutting right winger smears that she’s leading the calls. She’s letting others get her to that point. At least that’s how she might be perceiving this.

I still think she’s slow-walking this far too much but she’s got to get the caucus on board, and they’re closing on 50% support within the caucus. I think if it gets to 75%, we’d see her back it too, which would get the entire caucus on board, except the handful of Democrats who need to fend off GOP challenges in purple districts.

Nadler needs to get super aggressive on this - and obstruction is just one set of charges to consider.

There’s wire fraud, money laundering, interfering in ongoing investigations, conspiracy (involving the aforementioned), emoluments, and conspiracy against the US. Add to that the failure to protect the nation from threats foreign and domestic (abrogating his oath of office by refusing to even consider actions against Russia for interfering in the elections past, present, and future).

Any of us here can come up with a charge list of 20+ activities that could go into the impeachment. There’s enough evidence publicly available to sustain those charges too.

The longer you wait to act, the more it becomes stale and people forget just how craven and criminal Trump and the GOP are.

But I’d make sure that everyone remembers what Lindsay Graham said when he was pushing to remove Clinton from office. Make the GOP eat all the words. Make the GOP own this - and make the GOP own the record of backing a thoroughly corrupt and criminal Trump.

Do not let up. Put the hammer down and keep squeezing. When the GOP caterwauls, squeeze even more. The mistake here is to let up or think that the Russians or other foreign powers aren’t going to interfere again (and they already are).

7
NO SMOCKING GUN!  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:46:58am

re: #5 Decatur Deb

Is ‘Doing the Right Thing’ Worth Increasing the Risk of a Second Trump Term?
nymag.com

Put me down for a “No”. At most, we should have a slow-walk investigation that will not come to vote before the election. I’ll repent and restore my civic virtue after we get rid of these monsters.

Getting televised testimony about Trump’s many crimes can only help, and if the voters turn decisively against Trump, then let the GOP Senators cast unpopular votes to leave him in office.

8
BlueSpotinAL  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:49:31am

Emoluments is indisputable. Just the fact that he charges for golf expenses that go to him is a direct violation.

9
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:50:03am

Building up the case. I’m in favor of that.

10
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:50:50am

I’ve talked here about the archery/bowhunting forum where I used to argue with Righties, from the late 90s through about 2010, and how it had morphed from a place where you could have a semi-respectful debate into yet another Right wing echo chamber, because liberals got run off and moderates got tired of the shit and left, and articulate conservatives got out-shouted.

We had many interesting arguments, for a long time. I even made a few friends who invited me to come hunt in their favorite spots, and once even went to a gathering of the denizens of the forum, for a leading member who was doing his “farewell tour” - diagnosed with Stage 4 lymphoma and decided not to spend his last months slowly dying in a hospital bed.

After Obama was elected, the place turned into such a cesspool that I finally gave up on it in 2010. I’d look in on it every so often, just to see what was going on. It got worse and worse, like leaving the crud left in the flask during distillation, boiling away to a tarry residue of awfulness and stupidity.

They made fun of Global Warming, of course. So last night I wanted to see whether they even noticed the highest temperatures ever recorded in the places with the longest temperature records - France and England. It was gone. There was an announcement that not only was the forum closed, but that all historical posts were gone, too, in preparation for a Big Change in the site.

I feel some sadness that the history of the place, back when it was largely good-natured arguments among friends is gone. But I suspect the way it had evolved made the place harder for the owner to sell the site, which I suspect is what’s going on.

I won’t say it was fun while it lasted, but it was fun while it was fun.

11
NO SMOCKING GUN!  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:51:42am

Get the many contractors and Trump University students he ripped off and his sexual assault victims an opportunity to testify as well.

12
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:52:16am

I look at this way. As they build up the case, he is going to lash out. He is going to show both why he is undeserving of a second term and why he should be impeached. That will expose Congressional Republicans as enablers.

13
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:52:18am

re: #8 BlueSpotinAL

Emoluments is indisputable. Just the fact that he charges for golf expenses that go to him is a direct violation.

Yep, all except for the fact that Congress decides if there’s a problem, independent of impeachment.

14
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:54:23am

It’s about fucking time!

15
jeffreyw  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:54:58am

re: #6 lawhawk

Harry Belafonte recalled in an interview with Tavis Smiley recently a story he was told by Eleanor Roosevelt. She related a public event when her husband, FDR, introduced Randolph and asked him, Belafonte recalled, “what he thought of the nation, what he thought of the plight of the Negro people and what did he think … where the nation was headed.” Continuing the story, Belafonte recounted what FDR replied upon hearing Randolph’s remarks: “You know, Mr. Randolph, I’ve heard everything you’ve said tonight, and I couldn’t agree with you more. I agree with everything that you’ve said, including my capacity to be able to right many of these wrongs and to use my power and the bully pulpit. … But I would ask one thing of you, Mr. Randolph, and that is go out and make me do it.”

‘I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it’

16
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:55:30am

re: #10 Blind Frog Belly White

I’ve talked here about the archery/bowhunting forum where I used to argue with Righties, from the late 90s through about 2010, and how it had morphed from a place where you could have a semi-respectful debate into yet another Right wing echo chamber, because liberals got run off and moderates got tired of the shit and left, and articulate conservatives got out-shouted.

We had many interesting arguments, for a long time. I even made a few friends who invited me to come hunt in their favorite spots, and once even went to a gathering of the denizens of the forum, for a leading member who was doing his “farewell tour” - diagnosed with Stage 4 lymphoma and decided not to spend his last months slowly dying in a hospital bed.

After Obama was elected, the place turned into such a cesspool that I finally gave up on it in 2010. I’d look in on it every so often, just to see what was going on. It got worse and worse, like leaving the crud left in the flask during distillation, boiling away to a tarry residue of awfulness and stupidity.

They made fun of Global Warming, of course. So last night I wanted to see whether they even noticed the highest temperatures ever recorded in the places with the longest temperature records - France and England. It was gone. There was an announcement that not only was the forum closed, but that all historical posts were gone, too, in preparation for a Big Change in the site.

I feel some sadness that the history of the place, back when it was largely good-natured arguments among friends is gone. But I suspect the way it had evolved made the place harder for the owner to sell the site, which I suspect is what’s going on.

I won’t say it was fun while it lasted, but it was fun while it was fun.

There was a bipartisan forum I posted at from 2006-2008. The right wingers there seemed nice but really lost their shit when Obama won. I don’t want to think what’s happened in the decade since. The center has moved to the right though.

17
NO SMOCKING GUN!  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:57:03am

Here’s an idea; the Democratic nominee should run on popular ideas, instead of unpopular ones, because there are more good ideas to improve things than can possibly be enacted, and the Democrats need to win big to get even a slim Senate majority, without which no legislation will pass. vox.com

18
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:58:07am

I still think Impeachment is the right thing to do even if Trump ultimately get re-elected. Ti has to established that all the shit Trump is doing is NOT okay and that he and future Presidents who try it WILL be held accountable.

19
Skip Intro  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:58:23am

re: #11 NO SMOCKING GUN!

Get the many contractors and Trump University students he ripped off and his sexual assault victims an opportunity to testify as well.

That won’t count because he wasn’t the president then. Just go for the simple stuff that people can understand: Emoluments.

20
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 10:59:30am

re: #18 Eclectic Cyborg

I still think Impeachment is the right thing to do even if Trump ultimately get re-elected. Ti has to established that all the shit Trump is doing is NOT okay and that he and future Presidents who try it WILL be held accountable.

That’s been my thought since the beginning. It’s not merely about Trump. It’s about future abuse of power.

21
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:00:12am

re: #19 Skip Intro

That won’t count because he wasn’t the president then. Just go for the simple stuff that people can understand: Emoluments.

Yes, there’s a lot to get him while President.

22
NO SMOCKING GUN!  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:00:22am

re: #19 Skip Intro

That won’t count because he wasn’t the president then. Just go for the simple stuff that people can understand: Emoluments.

Trump certainly wasn’t shy about trotting out Bill Clinton’s accusers from decades past.

23
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:01:48am

re: #17 NO SMOCKING GUN!

Here’s an idea; the Democratic nominee should run on popular ideas, instead of unpopular ones, because there are more good ideas to improve things than can possibly be enacted, and the Democrats need to win big to get even a slim Senate majority, without which no legislation will pass. vox.com

I’m waiting for one of the candidates to explain, for example, that M4A won’t abolish the private coverage you may have now, but will, over time, render it unnecessary and obsolete. When every doctor is ‘in network’, there are no ‘out of network’ charges, for example. No worries about your employer changing health insurance carriers and having to find a new PCP. And that we’re ALREADY spending the money we’ll spend on M4A, so spending won’t rise, it’ll just be accounted differently.

That’s what people are worried about - losing what they have. And none of the candidates advocating M4A are doing that.

24
Charles Johnson  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:02:58am
25
NO SMOCKING GUN!  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:03:41am

re: #23 Blind Frog Belly White

I’m waiting for one of the candidates to explain, for example, that M4A won’t abolish the private coverage you may have now, but will, over time, render it unnecessary and obsolete. When every doctor is ‘in network’, there are no ‘out of network’ charges, for example. No worries about your employer changing health insurance carriers and having to find a new PCP. And that we’re ALREADY spending the money we’ll spend on M4A, so spending won’t rise, it’ll just be accounted differently.

That’s what people are worried about - losing what they have. And none of the candidates advocating M4A are doing that.

We certainly know how effective the GOP is at running scare campaigns. “Death Panels!”

26
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:06:08am

From the other thread; i was busy reading up on David Barton’s connexions to Glenn Beck and the Christian Identity movement.

re: #341 Backwoods_Sleuth

not one fucking clue

What the hell is he talking about? Digital tax?

27
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:07:03am

re: #25 NO SMOCKING GUN!

We certainly know how effective the GOP is at running scare campaigns. “Death Panels!”

“Who would you rather have deciding your fate? A faceless bureaucrat who is part of a government that prints it’s own money? Or a company whose shareholders require them to pay out as little as they can get away with?”

28
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:08:40am

re: #27 Blind Frog Belly White

“Who would you rather have deciding your fate? A faceless bureaucrat who is part of a government that prints it’s own money? Or a company whose shareholders require them to pay out as little as they can get away with?”

We need to communicate that GOP policies create a big bureaucracy too just one with less accountability. Big government I concede can have its problems but big business having too much power is a far greater evil.

29
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:11:20am

Fox and right wing echo chamber. Keep ‘em stupid and misinformed by all means possible, including flat-out lying about Fox polls.

30
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:12:57am

re: #29 lawhawk

Fox and right wing echo chamber. Keep ‘em stupid and misinformed by all means possible, including flat-out lying about Fox polls.

[Embedded content]

Lying about what their own polls say.

31
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:13:23am

Brought forward …

re: #350 Blind Frog Belly White

More evidence that Trumpkins really don’t understand how economics work….

I had this discussion with someone on FB a while back. He said people were fleeing California, and pointed to homelessness as evidence.

When I pointed out that homelessness exists because the rent is too damn high, and the rent is too damn high because the housing stock is insufficient, and the housing stock is insufficient because PEOPLE KEEP MOVING HERE, he softly and silently vanished away….

Homeless also exists in cities such as San Francisco (and Charleston, SC., where I was homeless) because you’ll freeze to death if you are homeless and can’t get out of a place like Fargo, ND.

32
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:13:39am

re: #29 lawhawk

Fox and right wing echo chamber. Keep ‘em stupid and misinformed by all means possible, including flat-out lying about Fox polls.

[Embedded content]

Hidden in all this is that, with unemployment historically low, and the economy doing pretty well by most any standard, his approval on the economy is ONLY 52%.

33
NO SMOCKING GUN!  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:13:43am

re: #28 HappyWarrior

We need to communicate that GOP policies create a big bureaucracy too just one with less accountability. Big government I concede can have its problems but big business having too much power is a far greater evil.

Anyway, I think the nominee should run on providing a public option. Giving people a choice without threatening what they’ve got is popular.

34
DodgerFan1988  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:13:58am

Mitch McConnell needs to be arrested and charged with collaborating with a hostile foreign country and treason.

35
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:14:59am

re: #33 NO SMOCKING GUN!

Anyway, I think the nominee should run on providing a public option. Giving people a choice without threatening what they’ve got is popular.

I prefer a hybrid system. Minimum standard of care for everybody but if you have the money to afford better than that, so be it.

36
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:15:09am

re: #31 Anymouse 🌹

Brought forward …

Homeless also exists in cities such as San Francisco (and Charleston, SC., where I was homeless) because you’ll freeze to death if you are homeless and can’t get out of a place like Fargo, ND.

True. But there is a substantial percentage of homeless here who are working folks, but who simply can’t afford the rent anywhere.

37
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:15:36am

re: #32 Blind Frog Belly White

Hidden in all this is that, with unemployment historically low, and the economy doing pretty well by most any standard, his approval on the economy is ONLY 52%.

But I thought we were winning on Tariffs?

///

38
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:17:55am

People are giving him the bod on the economy because things aren’t a total clusterfuck economically.

39
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:18:04am

re: #30 HappyWarrior

Lying about what their own polls say.

Trump was REALLY UPSET with the Fox News poll today.

40
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:18:53am

re: #39 Blind Frog Belly White

Trump was REALLY UPSET with the Fox News poll today.

[Embedded content]

He knows he’s losing.

41
Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:19:34am

Nevada lawmaker says he’d vote for slavery if his constituents wanted him to

Cousins should not marry.

A Nevada assemblyman said he would vote in favor of legislation allowing for slavery if it was something his constituents wanted him to do.

Jim Wheeler, a Republican from Gardnerville, was talking to a crowd of Storey County Republicans in August he when said “yeah I would” vote for slavery if that’s what his constituents wanted.

“If that’s what they wanted, I’d have to hold my nose, I’d have to bite my tongue and they’d probably have to hold a gun to my head, but yeah, if that’s what the citizens of the, if that’s what the constituency wants that elected me, that’s what they elected me for,” he said.

42
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:19:55am

re: #40 HappyWarrior

He knows he’s losing.

Can’t believe that there aren’t enough stupid white people to keep him at 70%. After all, his rallies are full of white people!

43
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:20:32am

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Your constituents should vote to have you jump off a bridge. He’d hold his nose and do it.

What a frickin’ paragon of virtue this one is.

44
Dread Pirate  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:20:33am
45
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:20:59am

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Nevada lawmaker says he’d vote for slavery if his constituents wanted him to

[Embedded content]

Cousins should not marry.

Your constituents want you to support increasing the minimum wage and I’m willing to bet you oppose that.

46
Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:22:26am

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Nevada lawmaker says he’d vote for slavery if his constituents wanted him to

[Embedded content]

Cousins should not marry.

Addendum: Wheeler has not yet commented on incest, cannibalism, or human sacrifice but he would presumably favor those too if his Republican constituents wanted it.

47
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:23:12am

re: #44 Dread Pirate

I remember a racist meme wingnuts posted back around the time of the first KJU summit. IIRC, it showed KJU on the phone, supposedly with Iran, saying, “You do what Mistah Trump say! It go better for you!”

Those idiots really thought Trump had brought KJU to heel. I’m curious what they think is happening now.

48
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:24:27am

re: #45 HappyWarrior

Your constituents want you to support increasing the minimum wage and I’m willing to bet you oppose that.

And I have no doubt that his constituents would have to “hold a gun to his head.”

He’s a Republican. He’d gladly vote for slavery.

Moreover, why even make such a comment unless you support such a thing. Or “why won’t Democrats compromise? I agreed instead of slavery we should just go back to Jim Crow! Why won’t they meet in the middle?

49
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:25:26am

re: #47 Blind Frog Belly White

I remember a racist meme wingnuts posted back around the time of the first KJU summit. IIRC, it showed KJU on the phone, supposedly with Iran, saying, “You do what Mistah Trump say! It go better for you!”

Those idiots really thought Trump had brought KJU to heel. I’m curious what they think is happening now.

I’ve joked about KJU but he obviously has some smarts. I think he played Trump like a fiddle. Knew how to get to his ego where Trump completely ignores this is the closest living thing to a Stalin in our times.

50
danarchy  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:25:36am

re: #8 BlueSpotinAL

Emoluments is indisputable. Just the fact that he charges for golf expenses that go to him is a direct violation.

Would that fall under the Emoluments clause? Doesn’t that specifically reference receiving things from foreign entities? That just seems like garden variety unethical graft. Now all of the foreign dignitaries renting his hotel rooms and facilities and getting golf club memberships is another matter entirely.

51
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:25:45am

re: #43 lawhawk

Your constituents should vote to have you jump off a bridge. He’d hold his nose and do it.

What a frickin’ paragon of virtue this one is.

I thought the whole point of representative democracy was that you elect people whose wisdom and experience you trust to guide them as they study the issues more deeply than you have time to do yourself. It’s not about simply saving you the trouble of having to vote on every little thing.

52
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:25:54am

re: #48 Anymouse 🌹

And I have no doubt that his constituents would have to “hold a gun to his head.”

He’s a Republican. He’d gladly vote for slavery.

Moreover, why even make such a comment unless you support such a thing. Or “why won’t Democrats compromise? I agreed instead of slavery we should just go back to Jim Crow! Why won’t they meet in the middle?

I have no idea.

53
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:26:32am

re: #50 danarchy

Would that fall under the Emoluments clause? Doesn’t that specifically reference receiving things from foreign entities? That just seems like garden variety unethical graft. Now all of the foreign dignitaries renting his hotel rooms and facilities and getting golf club memberships is another matter entirely.

You mean like KSA booking rooms and suites and holding conferences and shit in Trump properties?

54
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:27:42am

re: #42 Blind Frog Belly White

Can’t believe that there aren’t enough stupid white people to keep him at 70%. After all, his rallies are full of white people!

The way Republican polling goes around here:

[phone rings] [phone rings again]

“Hello, we’re Blank Polling Company, we’d like to ask you a few questions about Republican politicians.

“Okay.

“Question 1: Do you support Donald Trump?

“No.”

[click]

55
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:28:58am

re: #47 Blind Frog Belly White

56
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:31:29am

re: #55 Eclectic Cyborg

That’s the one.

Correct version would be “Listen - just send him a nice letter telling him he’s a great guy. Meet with him and smile for the cameras. He’ll let you to anything.”

57
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:31:48am

re: #55 Eclectic Cyborg

[Embedded content]

Yeah they think this is funny. Jokes on them.

58
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:32:11am

re: #8 BlueSpotinAL

Emoluments is indisputable. Just the fact that he charges for golf expenses that go to him is a direct violation.

As I mentioned repeatedly, we did not need the Mueller Report, there is enough evidence right there in our faces.

59
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:32:32am

re: #56 Blind Frog Belly White

That’s the one.

Correct version would be “Listen - just send him a nice letter telling him he’s a great guy. Meet with him and smile for the cameras. He’ll let you to anything.”

If Maduro was smart, Trump would be praising Venezuela.

60
Charles Johnson  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:32:56am

An important point.

61
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:33:26am

re: #26 Anymouse 🌹

From the other thread; i was busy reading up on David Barton’s connexions to Glenn Beck and the Christian Identity movement.

What the hell is he talking about? Digital tax?

Large digital companies pay a minimum tax for business done in France regardless of where they have located their head offices for tax (evasion) purposes

62
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:33:51am

re: #60 Charles Johnson

An important point.

[Embedded content]

All in time.

63
Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:36:34am

Speaking of slavery, I didn’t know until recently that slavery was legal in the New Mexico Territory until 1863. This was the subject of quite a bit of discussion at the federal level, but there were never more than a dozen or so slaves in the territory. A House committee approved New Mexico’s admission as a slave state in 1860. Ironically, southern congressmen were unable to accept the offer, since most of them had already resigned because of secession.

64
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:39:03am

re: #10 Blind Frog Belly White

Perhaps you should take up knitting instead, since Ravelry ran off the RWNJs. /s

My wife is on Ravelry. She said the place was turning into a cesspool until they did that. No more Klan needlepoint patterns or Nazi sweater patterns. No more nutbars in the fora going on about the hour’s conspiracy theories.

When Penzey’s Spices did the same during the campaign, RWNJs threatened a boycott against them. Penzey’s said “fine.”

Their boycott is going about as well as their boycotts against Dick’s Sporting Goods, Target, Wal*Mart, Starbucks, the play “Hamilton,” &c.

It’s almost as though corporations know who their customer base actually is.

65
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:41:06am

re: #34 DodgerFan1988

[Embedded content]

Mitch McConnell needs to be arrested and charged with collaborating with a hostile foreign country and treason.

putin’s mitch

66
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:43:46am

re: #64 Anymouse 🌹

Perhaps you should take up knitting instead, since Ravelry ran off the RWNJs. /s

My wife is on Ravelry. She said the place was turning into a cesspool until they did that. No more Klan needlepoint patterns or Nazi sweater patterns. No more nutbars in the fora going on about the hour’s conspiracy theories.

When Penzey’s Spices did the same during the campaign, RWNJs threatened a boycott against them. Penzey’s said “fine.”

Their boycott is going about as well as their boycotts against Dick’s Sporting Goods, Target, Wal*Mart, Starbucks, the play “Hamilton,” &c.

It’s almost as though corporations know who their customer base actually is.

I don’t know that there’s any place left for political arguments that revolve around policy, data, etc. Look what happened here with Dark Falcon - he had at least tried to be a ‘reasonable conservative’, but on the Right these days, you’re either with Trump, or you’re out. And “Conservatism” is now defined as “Whatever Trump wants”, subject to change without notice.

So, I’m happy here among like minds.

67
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:44:09am

re: #63 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Speaking of slavery, I didn’t know until recently that slavery was legal in the New Mexico Territory until 1863. This was the subject of quite a bit of discussion at the federal level, but there were never more than a dozen or so slaves in the territory. A House committee approved New Mexico’s admission as a slave state in 1860. Ironically, southern congressmen were unable to accept the offer, since most of them had already resigned because of secession.

I believe the Arizona territory seceded with the CSA. This really wasn’t that long ago. As youvd told us in the past SK, you vividly remember a childhood neighbor or acquaintance who lived these times. I wonder about my own grandparents’ grandparents a lot and the lives they lived. Man how much different. Six countries among them and six different native languages. As far west as Conneacht in Ireland’s Irish speaking lands and as Far East as Slovakia near the borderlands of Slovakia, Ukraine, & Poland.

68
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:44:40am

re: #45 HappyWarrior

Your constituents want you to support increasing the minimum wage and I’m willing to bet you oppose that.

“in good conscience, i’d have to” //

69
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:45:33am

re: #66 Blind Frog Belly White

I don’t know that there’s any place left for political arguments that revolve around policy, data, etc. Look what happened here with Dark Falcon - he had at least tried to be a ‘reasonable conservative’, but on the Right these days, you’re either with Trump, or you’re out. And “Conservatism” is now defined as “Whatever Trump wants”, subject to change without notice.

So, I’m happy here among like minds.

Imo DF’s problem is he couldn’t separate being a good Republican from being a good American and that line grew thin.

70
Old Liberal  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:45:49am

re: #46 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Addendum: Wheeler has not yet commented on incest, cannibalism, or human sacrifice but he would presumably favor those too if his Republican constituents wanted it.

How about making Christianity illegal? Of course he’d say that’s unconstitutional. Too stupid to live.

71
Charles Johnson  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:46:30am
72
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:47:21am

re: #51 Blind Frog Belly White

I thought the whole point of representative democracy was that you elect people whose wisdom and experience you trust to guide them as they study the issues more deeply than you have time to do yourself.

It’s not about simply saving you the trouble of having to vote on every little thing.
73
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:47:23am

re: #64 Anymouse 🌹

WRT taking up knitting, back when I met with klys to introduce her to archery, Mrs. FBW pointedly said that between cycling and watch collecting, I had enough hobbies, so if I wanted to take up archery again I’d need to drop one of those.

Sounds harsh, but she’s right - I tend to get obsessively involved in hobbies so that trying to manage 3 at the same time would have eaten up too much of my waking time. Honestly, though, I don’t control my muse. It’s like a switch.

74
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:48:59am

Saw Once upon a time in Hollywood with my wife last night.

A few thoughts:

Click to Reveal

- Great performances from Pitt and Dicaprio.

- Margot Robbie was good, but underused.

- The violence, while intense, was not as frequent as I thought it would be.

- There’s a scene between Dicaprio and a young girl that is absolutely fantastic.

- The sequence where Brad Pitt’s character fights Bruce Lee was a lot of fun.

- The production designers did an AMAZING job of recreating 1969 Los Angeles and their work is shown off a lot, maybe a little too much. At times, it seemed the camera was more focused on the aesthetics than the actors themselves.

- The soundtrack was solid

- The movie does drag at times and is a bit long, but overall is enjoyable.

- Would not call it Tarantinos best, but it’s easily in his Top 5. Maybe even Top 3.

75
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:48:59am

re: #60 Charles Johnson

An important point.

Here’s a nice deflection from Prof. Kruse’s point (with charts)

leaving out the part where President Obama had inherited President GW Bush’s failing economy (and the racism).

76
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:51:32am

re: #66 Blind Frog Belly White

I don’t know that there’s any place left for political arguments that revolve around policy, data, etc. Look what happened here with Dark Falcon - he had at least tried to be a ‘reasonable conservative’, but on the Right these days, you’re either with Trump, or you’re out. And “Conservatism” is now defined as “Whatever Trump wants”, subject to change without notice.

So, I’m happy here among like minds.

the problem is that ‘whatever trump wants’ is not a policy argument.
it can’t be supported with data
it cant be approached using logic and reason

so there’s no ‘argument’ to be had

77
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:51:48am

re: #75 Anymouse 🌹

Wow, I didn’t even know we had an official Misery Index.

78
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:52:43am

re: #66 Blind Frog Belly White

I don’t know that there’s any place left for political arguments that revolve around policy, data, etc. Look what happened here with Dark Falcon - he had at least tried to be a ‘reasonable conservative’, but on the Right these days, you’re either with Trump, or you’re out. And “Conservatism” is now defined as “Whatever Trump wants”, subject to change without notice.

So, I’m happy here among like minds.

Republicans have been doing that for a long time though. With Reagan, with GW Bush’s “you’re with us or your against us,” &c.

Those who follow the faith follow the current faith leader. They might bellyache about some decisions or statements, but they’ll come up with an apologetic for it.

Those who aren’t so closely tied to the religion will drift away.

It creates a vicious circle in the GOP where the remaining reliable voters become ever-more reactionary.

79
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:52:45am

re: #77 Eclectic Cyborg

Wow, I didn’t even know we had an official Misery Index.

It’s sponsored by Major League Baseball.

80
mmmirele  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:53:06am

re: #26 Anymouse 🌹

From the other thread; i was busy reading up on David Barton’s connexions to Glenn Beck and the Christian Identity movement.

What the hell is he talking about? Digital tax?

AM, Warren Throckmorton is the expert on David Barton, has written about him. You might be interested in his comments about the Family documentary Netflix has coming out.

wthrockmorton.com

81
Charles Johnson  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:58:48am
82
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jul 26, 2019 • 11:59:04am

re: #66 Blind Frog Belly White

I don’t know that there’s any place left for political arguments that revolve around policy, data, etc. Look what happened here with Dark Falcon - he had at least tried to be a ‘reasonable conservative’, but on the Right these days, you’re either with Trump, or you’re out.

He argued Conservative principles but sided with whatever kept the GOP in power

83
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:00:14pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

They warned him.

84
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:00:56pm

a couple of thoughts on this philosophy of democracy stuff:

The complicated business of politics is to negotiate agreements between groups with different interests with the object of finding a common way forward.

At present only one side buys into this premise, while the other does not market any notion of democratic participatory ‘politics’ but rather power, domination, and force of will. Authoritarian and dictatorial.

Principled opponents are welcome when politics is a clash of value systems, each of which is in some way valid; a competition between basically well-intentioned people who see the world differently.

When it becomes, not even a conflict of interests, but instead an “our team no matter what”, degenerative, brutal struggle for office in which only one side with righteous indignation believes only the other is and can be capable of behaving despicably while they themselves run roughshod over it all, well then eff em without mercy.

(paraphrased from the west wing)

Toby: Political parties lead to divisiveness; and they should. If we have honest disagreements, arguments are good
Leo: They are good only if they lead to statesmanship, or it’s just theater. Statesmanship *is* compromise

Ben Franklin thought the only hope for democracy was if people respected each other enough to compromise

Politics requires two or more principals acting in good faith

85
Decatur Deb  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:01:35pm

My 5-term GOP representative has just announced she is not seeking another term. wish we could say we’ve scared her off, but no. She will likely be replaced by worse.

86
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:02:12pm

re: #69 HappyWarrior

Imo DF’s problem is he couldn’t separate being a good Republican from being a good American and that line grew thin.

My experience in debating with Republicans is that starting with Limbaugh and Gingrich, more and more of them were seduced by the combative, scorched earth approach, because it provided certainty, whereas compromise means uncertainty. They’d even say, “Why should I compromise if I’m right?”, which morphed into “The other side is EEEEVILLL!!!! You don’t compromise with EEEEVILLL!”, and this felt very validating for them.

And over time, the ones who got seduced by the anger and hate had those feelings rewarded and amplified, and their numbers grew in the GOP, while the ones who thought it a useful strategy largely ignored it. But by 2015 that anger and hate-driven base had become the strongest section of the GOP.

Along comes Trump, who is nothing but anger and hate, and acted like a seed crystal in a supersaturated solution. Almost instantly, the whole thing hardened into the Trumpian GOP, and the ones who’d tried being The Reasonable Conservative found themselves with a choice - follow Trump in everything, or leave. DF took the former path. Being, and remaining Republican was more important than his alleged principles. And once you start down that road, like any cult, it’s nearly impossible to turn back.

87
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:04:05pm

re: #76 DangerMan

the problem is that ‘whatever trump wants’ is not a policy argument.
it can’t be supported with data
it cant be approached using logic and reason

so there’s no ‘argument’ to be had

” Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.”

88
sagehen  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:05:02pm

re: #77 Eclectic Cyborg

Wow, I didn’t even know we had an official Misery Index.

I thought the Misery Index was a weather thing (temperature + humidity).

89
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:05:21pm

re: #78 Anymouse 🌹

Republicans have been doing that for a long time though. With Reagan, with GW Bush’s “you’re with us or your against us,” &c.

Those who follow the faith follow the current faith leader. They might bellyache about some decisions or statements, but they’ll come up with an apologetic for it.

Those who aren’t so closely tied to the religion will drift away.

It creates a vicious circle in the GOP where the remaining reliable voters become ever-more reactionary.

I don’t see it as a circle. I see it as a spiral.

90
Dr Lizardo  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:05:21pm

re: #85 Decatur Deb

My 5-term GOP representative has just announced she is not seeking another term. wish we could say we’ve scared her off, but no. She will likely be replaced by worse.

There was another Republican the other day that announced they’re not running for re-election.

Maybe we’re seeing the beginnings of GOP congresspeople starting to get genuinely scared about next year’s elections. If we start seeing more and more Republican congresspeople announcing they’re not running next year, then it’ll become increasingly obvious they’re worried about an across-the-board wipeout.

91
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:05:48pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

Surprising absolutely no one who was paying attention.

Trump got his idiotic photo op and gave up leverage to do so - that NK first denuclearize before any one-on-one meeting.

Jong Un got parity with the US and got to continue its missile and nuke programs unmolested.

North Korea couldn’t be happier with the turn of events.

And now they’re in process of launching a missile sub capable of firing one of those nuclear tipped missiles as blackmail. Never mind that it’s based on a 1950s era sub and it would likely be a suicide mission for that crew, but the ability to fire first with no warning is precisely why they have invested in this in the first place. Or it is able to fire as retaliation should NK be attacked.

It’s the perfect blackmail platform.

They could fire from within NK territorial waters and give South Korea, Japan, or even US forces limited time to react - less than from a known missile launch field. It’s why US boomers are so dangerous - it limits reaction time and gives second strike capacity.

92
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:05:58pm

re: #88 sagehen

I thought the Misery Index was a weather thing (temperature + humidity).

Inflation + unemployment, IIRC.

93
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:07:40pm

re: #86 Blind Frog Belly White

My experience in debating with Republicans is that starting with Limbaugh and Gingrich, more and more of them were seduced by the combative, scorched earth approach, because it provided certainty, whereas compromise means uncertainty. They’d even say, “Why should I compromise if I’m right?”, which morphed into “The other side is EEEEVILLL!!!! You don’t compromise with EEEEVILLL!”, and this felt very validating for them.

And over time, the ones who got seduced by the anger and hate had those feelings rewarded and amplified, and their numbers grew in the GOP, while the ones who thought it a useful strategy largely ignored it. But by 2015 that anger and hate-driven base had become the strongest section of the GOP.

Along comes Trump, who is nothing but anger and hate, and acted like a seed crystal in a supersaturated solution. Almost instantly, the whole thing hardened into the Trumpian GOP, and the ones who’d tried being The Reasonable Conservative found themselves with a choice - follow Trump in everything, or leave. DF took the former path. Being, and remaining Republican was more important than his alleged principles. And once you start down that road, like any cult, it’s nearly impossible to turn back.

I think you nail it. It’s honestly sad because even though I’m staunchly liberal, a conservative balance isn’t the worst thing. One that a radical right does is distort what the right and left are. In an American context, Nancy Pelosi should never be seen as a moderate and I mean that as a compliment to the Speaker. She led on lgbt Rights when I was a baby, opposed Iraq a year after 9/11 and got most CDs to oppose it, & led on healthcare reform.

94
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:09:20pm

re: #77 Eclectic Cyborg

Wow, I didn’t even know we had an official Misery Index.

Bloomberg puts it out.

95
Dr Lizardo  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:10:32pm

re: #91 lawhawk

Sure - park an Ohio-class boomer up there in the Baltic and the missile flight time to Moscow is what, a few minutes or so?

96
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:10:40pm

So Unproven Innocence is now also an abolitionist? A statement against the Nevada wingnut, or did I just miss it before?

97
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:14:55pm

re: #80 mmmirele

AM, Warren Throckmorton is the expert on David Barton, has written about him. You might be interested in his comments about the Family documentary Netflix has coming out.

wthrockmorton.com

Thanks. I’ll take a look at that.

Aaaand, right off the page, Alexander Torshin and Maria Butina are associated with The Family.

Perhaps this is the time to get rid of the unconstitutional National Prayer Breakfast and Day of Prayer, since The Family is entangled with a foreign power.

98
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:18:51pm

re: #95 Dr Lizardo

Yup… depending on the flight path, it could be as little as 7 minutes from the Barents. Likewise, Russian boomers could park 500 miles off the US coast and fire their nukes within a similar timeframe at our missile fields, or hit DC and NY within a few minutes.

99
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:20:40pm

re: #98 lawhawk

Yup… depending on the flight path, it could be as little as 7 minutes from the Barents. Likewise, Russian boomers could park 500 miles off the US coast and fire their nukes within a similar timeframe at our missile fields, or hit DC and NY within a few minutes.

Gosh, remember the halcyon days of our youth, when we lived with the expectation of nuclear annihilation?

100
sagehen  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:21:07pm

re: #93 HappyWarrior

I think you nail it. It’s honestly sad because even though I’m staunchly liberal, a conservative balance isn’t the worst thing. One that a radical right does is distort what the right and left are. In an American context, Nancy Pelosi should never be seen as a moderate and I mean that as a compliment to the Speaker. She led on lgbt Rights when I was a baby, opposed Iraq a year after 9/11 and got most CDs to oppose it, & led on healthcare reform.

Her leadership on LGBT rights was ENTIRELY a function of local district requirements. If she were still in her home state of Maryland, it would have taken her another 15 or 20 years to take that view.

101
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:22:00pm

re: #99 Blind Frog Belly White

Trump thinks he can win a war using nukes.

102
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:22:15pm

re: #100 sagehen

Her leadership on LGBT rights was ENTIRELY a function of local district requirements. If she were still in her home state of Maryland, it would have taken her another 15 or 20 years to take that view.

True but she did take it.

103
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:23:10pm

re: #100 sagehen

Her leadership on LGBT rights was ENTIRELY a function of local district requirements. If she were still in her home state of Maryland, it would have taken her another 15 or 20 years to take that view.

Or, just ask likely, she wouldn’t have made it into office, just like I will never defeat John Ratcliffe with those views right now.

104
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:23:56pm

re: #101 lawhawk

Trump thinks he can win a war using nukes.

trump figures he’d survive a war using nukes

105
I Would Prefer Not To  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:24:03pm

re: #3 Blind Frog Belly White

Good. I think this is the way to go. Way too soon for Articles of Impeachment - not because they’re not deserved, but because of the politics of it.

You might be right, but I’m getting tired of people talking about “poilitics” and “optics” when crimes have been committed.

106
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:26:17pm

re: #101 lawhawk

Trump thinks he can win a war using nukes.

I’m not sure that’s quite true, but I do think that some of his advisers think so.

I think Trump has a deep seated fear of getting involved in an actual shooting war. He understands it can all go wring and make everyone hate him. Look at the times he’s actually used force - it was so limited as to be completely meaningless - “Hey, let’s blow up a few nonworking Syrian airplanes, as long as everyone gets clear”.

It’s one of the things that makes his belligerence so pointless - he eventually gets exposed as a paper tiger.

107
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:27:03pm

re: #105 I Would Prefer Not To

You might be right, but I’m getting tired of people talking about “poilitics” and “optics” when crimes have been committed.

we would do well to separate:

- impeachment hearings held in the house
- a vote on articles of impeachment in the house
- whether any sort of hearings would be held in the senate (ok who am i kidding)
- a trial in the senate
- the senate voting after the trial

each succeeding step is not inevitable

108
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:27:14pm

More bad news for the GOP - their ranks of women in the House are shrinking, and with a bit of luck, we’ll see even bigger losses next year.

109
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:27:21pm

re: #105 I Would Prefer Not To

You might be right, but I’m getting tired of people talking about “poilitics” and “optics” when crimes have been committed.

Yes, it sucks. But that’s what we’re faced with.

110
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:29:43pm

re: #106 Blind Frog Belly White

His words are all bombast, this is absolutely and indisputably true.
But his musing about nukes is something he’s fixated on since before he entered the WH.

He does think that he could win a war with nukes. Why else mention it re: Afghanistan?

Devil’s Advocate: He’s mentioning it because he thinks he can play the madman and force concessions from whoever he’s threatening. The problem is no one takes him seriously and knows that his vanity and ego are so fragile that he’ll back down when he can’t get his way so that he can claim victory even as he loses ground.

111
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:33:15pm

re: #100 sagehen

Her leadership on LGBT rights was ENTIRELY a function of local district requirements. If she were still in her home state of Maryland, it would have taken her another 15 or 20 years to take that view.

That and being present when Mayor Moscone and councilmember Harvey Milk were murdered.

112
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:34:06pm

re: #110 lawhawk

His words are all bombast, this is absolutely and indisputably true.
But his musing about nukes is something he’s fixated on since before he entered the WH.

He does think that he could win a war with nukes. Why else mention it re: Afghanistan?

Devil’s Advocate: He’s mentioning it because he thinks he can play the madman and force concessions from whoever he’s threatening. The problem is no one takes him seriously and knows that his vanity and ego are so fragile that he’ll back down when he can’t get his way so that he can claim victory even as he loses ground.

I agree with the Devil’s Advocate position. He LOVES to threaten a fate “like the world has never seen”, but he keeps backing down, the latest example being the Iran raid he stopped at the last minute, and before that all the talk and saber rattling at Maduro that then came to nothing.

His alligator mouth keeps writing checks his hummingbird ass won’t cash.

113
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:34:37pm

re: #111 Anymouse 🌹

That and being present when Mayor Moscone and councilmember Harvey Milk were murdered.

That’s Dianne Feinstein, who actually found Moscone’s body.

114
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:35:18pm

re: #113 Blind Frog Belly White

That’s Dianne Feinstein, who actually found Moscone’s body.

Oops, mixed up my representatives. Thank you for the correction.

115
ericblair  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:37:29pm

re: #106 Blind Frog Belly White

I’m not sure that’s quite true, but I do think that some of his advisers think so.

I think Trump has a deep seated fear of getting involved in an actual shooting war. He understands it can all go wring and make everyone hate him. Look at the times he’s actually used force - it was so limited as to be completely meaningless - “Hey, let’s blow up a few nonworking Syrian airplanes, as long as everyone gets clear”.

It’s one of the things that makes his belligerence so pointless - he eventually gets exposed as a paper tiger.

He’s a physical coward. Even that pile of yogurt he has for a brain has figured out that any exchange of nukes is going to have at least one with 1600 Pennsylvania Ave as its target.

116
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:38:58pm

re: #110 lawhawk

His words are all bombast, this is absolutely and indisputably true.
But his musing about nukes is something he’s fixated on since before he entered the WH.

He does think that he could win a war with nukes. Why else mention it re: Afghanistan?

Devil’s Advocate: He’s mentioning it because he thinks he can play the madman and force concessions from whoever he’s threatening. The problem is no one takes him seriously and knows that his vanity and ego are so fragile that he’ll back down when he can’t get his way so that he can claim victory even as he loses ground.

i think your devil’s advocate is way to smart for trump. he’s not that clever

117
unproven innocence  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:39:16pm

re: #96 Anymouse 🌹

So Unproven Innocence is now also an abolitionist? A statement against the Nevada wingnut, or did I just miss it before?

If your comment is about me, abolitionist was my original handle here. I adopted unproven innocence when the rise of Palantir™ was a hot topic here, and those same technologies that had helped in tracking/targeting OBL (who had literally declared war on the US) were being rapidly expanded to such things as domestic surveillance, investigations and law enforcement. I do not understand the Nevada wingnut reference.

118
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:41:40pm

Meghan McCain putting out the same sort of excuses that Dark Falcon put out here.

“The explosion in the culture war, which has happened with the rise of Trump, has made me more conservative. No Republican is good enough for a certain group of people. All Republicans are evil to a certain segment of the media,” she says. “And you become more tribal, and more territorial of your people and what you represent. And that has certainly happened to me.”

You made me support racists and undermining our country. That’s why I belong to the party of personal responsibility.

Meghan McCain Is Having a Weird Year (Elle)

119
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:43:31pm

re: #117 unproven innocence

If your comment is about me, abolitionist was my original handle here. I adopted unproven innocence when the rise of Palantir was a hot topic here, and those same technologies that had helped in tracking/targeting OBL (who had literally declared war on the US) were being rapidly expanded to such things as domestic surveillance, investigations and law enforcement. I do not understand the Nevada wingnut reference.

Your previous name was before my time here then.

The reference to the Nevada wingnut is at re: #41 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel, where a Nevada lawmaker says he’d vote for slavery if his constituents demanded it.

120
HappyWarrior  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:43:57pm

re: #118 Anymouse 🌹

Meghan McCain putting out the same sort of excuses that Dark Falcon put out here.

You made me support racists and undermining our country. That’s why I belong to the party of personal responsibility.

Meghan McCain Is Having a Weird Year (Elle)

You and your father chose to stay loyal to a party who repeatedly attacked your sister, mother, & father. You chose to stay with the GOP for your reasons but no Democrat forced ya.

121
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:46:07pm

re: #118 Anymouse 🌹

“You made me racist by calling racists in my party racists, so I had no recourse but to start agreeing with them against you!”

122
I Would Prefer Not To  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:48:24pm

re: #109 Blind Frog Belly White

Yes, it sucks. But that’s what we’re faced with.

I think it’s a false choice. No impeachment or reelection. What if I told that it’s more likely that he will lose if we start the proceedings:
1) Tons of negative info will come out (nothing positive will)
2) He will lose his shit, not a good look during a campaign. Trump can’t handle the pressure…

123
Brian J.  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:49:58pm

re: #1 Mike Lamb

Insert “Joker ‘Here we go’” gif here

Congratulations on your re-election, Donald.

Democrats have decided to jump into the abyss. They’ve forgotten how to count. To sixty-seven, for instance, or to 270. So they’ve decided to spend months on a stupid and futile gesture to appease a far left that can never be appeased.

And it’s not like there will be some spectacular trial in which they are gallantly beaten. It’ll take half a lunch break, with McConnell grinning his shit-eating grin as all charges are dismissed.

124
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:51:33pm

re: #122 I Would Prefer Not To

I think it’s a false choice. No impeachment or reelection. What if I told that it’s more likely that he will lose if we start the proceedings:
1) Tons of negative info will come out (nothing positive will)
2) He will lose his shit, not a good look during a campaign. Trump can’t handle the pressure…

As the tweet from Kevin Kruse noted above, when investigations first started against Richard Nixon, only 16% of the nation was in favour of impeachment. That number didn’t cross 50% until about a month before he resigned.

It was getting the information out in front of the public which did that. Some of its out there now, but more’s coming.

125
Brian J.  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:52:02pm

re: #23 Blind Frog Belly White

I’m waiting for one of the candidates to explain, for example, that M4A won’t abolish the private coverage you may have now, but will, over time, render it unnecessary and obsolete. When every doctor is ‘in network’, there are no ‘out of network’ charges, for example. No worries about your employer changing health insurance carriers and having to find a new PCP. And that we’re ALREADY spending the money we’ll spend on M4A, so spending won’t rise, it’ll just be accounted differently.

That’s what people are worried about - losing what they have. And none of the candidates advocating M4A are doing that.

The problem with this is that half the candidates endorsing M4A DO want to abolish private coverage, while the other half are just terrified of BernieBros doxxing them and have no idea what they want.

126
ckkatz  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:54:27pm

re: #63 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Speaking of slavery, I didn’t know until recently that slavery was legal in the New Mexico Territory until 1863. This was the subject of quite a bit of discussion at the federal level, but there were never more than a dozen or so slaves in the territory. A House committee approved New Mexico’s admission as a slave state in 1860. Ironically, southern congressmen were unable to accept the offer, since most of them had already resigned because of secession.

Apropos to little:

(And Delaware’s history was even more checkered.)

After the Revolutionary War, many northern states rapidly passed laws to abolish slavery, but New Jersey did not abolish it until 1804, and then in a process of gradual emancipation similar to that of New York. But, in New Jersey, some slaves were held as late as 1865. (In New York, they were all freed by 1840.) The law made African Americans free at birth, but it required children (born to slave mothers), to serve lengthy apprenticeships as a type of indentured servant until early adulthood for the masters of their slave mothers. New Jersey was the last of the Northern states to abolish slavery completely. The last 16 slaves in New Jersey were freed in 1865 by the Thirteenth Amendment.

en.wikipedia.org

127
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 12:58:17pm

re: #126 ckkatz

Huh, you learn something new here every day.

128
I Would Prefer Not To  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:01:34pm

re: #123 Brian J.

Congratulations on your re-election, Donald.

Democrats have decided to jump into the abyss. They’ve forgotten how to count. To sixty-seven, for instance, or to 270. So they’ve decided to spend months on a stupid and futile gesture to appease a far left that can never be appeased.

And it’s not like there will be some spectacular trial in which they are gallantly beaten. It’ll take half a lunch break, with McConnell grinning his shit-eating grin as all charges are dismissed.

1) Seeking justice is never futile.
2) I am nowhere near far left, I just hate the fact that will were killing kids at the border to appease bigotry.
3) If we were doing this right Mitch would be worried sick about his reelection chances (or afraid he’ll be brought up on charges during the next admin).

129
sagehen  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:01:59pm

re: #113 Blind Frog Belly White

That’s Dianne Feinstein, who actually found Moscone’s body.

The hugely consequential thing about Dianne Feinstein’s tenure as SF mayor was she forced an earthquake retrofit of Candlestick Park. There was a lot of criticism at the time, “unnecessary government interference, anti-business” — but OMG can you imagine the carnage of Loma Prieta if she hadn’t done that? She saved the lives of 30,000 people who weren’t crushed under rubble during the World Series.

130
Dread Pirate  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:02:13pm
131
Brian J.  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:02:26pm

re: #20 HappyWarrior

That’s been my thought since the beginning. It’s not merely about Trump. It’s about future abuse of power.

Flopping about impotently like trout on dry land will not discourage future abuse of power. I’d be a lot more likely to support impeachment if its proponents were honest in saying that failure to convict was certain, and that an impeached President (or an impeached and acquitted one) has all the same powers as an unimpeached one.

132
The Ghost of a Flea  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:02:35pm

re: #110 lawhawk

His words are all bombast, this is absolutely and indisputably true.
But his musing about nukes is something he’s fixated on since before he entered the WH.

He does think that he could win a war with nukes. Why else mention it re: Afghanistan?

Devil’s Advocate: He’s mentioning it because he thinks he can play the madman and force concessions from whoever he’s threatening. The problem is no one takes him seriously and knows that his vanity and ego are so fragile that he’ll back down when he can’t get his way so that he can claim victory even as he loses ground.

Merge the two positions.

He’s a coward because he’s primed to avoid failure and shame, but has no conscientious reservations about use of violence. Violence is on the table if (1) he’s certain he can totally dominate the opponent, (2) he thinks he can “get away with” in the specialized sense that he’s made a calculation that the act will receive praise. It’s all a power hierarchy calculation. This can be seen in how he performs threats and bullying…the social precursor of violence…and strongman posturing when it gets him adulation in front of a crowd (including the Twitter crowd), but doesn’t actually behave that way face to face with other heads of state.

(It’s also present in how he talks about sex…that gross “I’m a bad boy” thing where the emphasis on license…I get to do this because power…absent morals)

When he’s stanning a dictator or empathizing with an abuser, it’s because he admires what they’re able to get away with; he wants a piece of that.

133
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:02:43pm

Kamala Harris Is President Of Making Trump Republicans Sh*t The Bed (Wonkette)

After the first Democratic debate, we wrote about Kamala Harris’s performance with the headline “Kamala Harris Shows America What She’ll Do To Trump, If You’ll Let Her.” The way Harris commanded the stage of eight million Democrats that night and ran the room like she owned it, the way she cut through with authority and emotion and humor … well, it was somethin’, all right!

We’ve been following Harris for years (even back when sHe WaS a CoP!), but we really started paying attention in the Trump era, as we watched her terrify Jeff Sessions and terrify her male GOP colleagues on the Senate Judiciary Committee. (sHe WaS aCtUaLlY a pRoSeCuToR.) She mopped the floor with Bill Barr. She did it to Brett Kavanaugh. Even Dead John McCain would pound the table and stomp around at Harris, because that impertinent lady simply would not stop asking impolite questions of Republicans. How ruuuuuude. Do you not know who John McCain’s daughter is?!

We’ve had a sneaking suspicion that Kamala Harris is literally the only person we want to see on a debate stage with Donald Trump, along with a sneaking suspicion that she is literally the only Democratic candidate who might make Trump try to weasel out of said debates. And it sounds like that sneaking suspicion is shared in the White House and among Republican operatives! But where that fact makes us giggle, it sounds like it’s making Trump and his acolytes shit the bed. Womp womp!

The article goes on about a Vanity Fair writer who spoke to Republican strategists who are concerned Sen. Harris would make a formidable opponent to Trump. (Includes a ten hour YouTube clip of the Law & Order “duh duh” sound, if you’re interested)

134
Brian J.  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:06:39pm

re: #133 Anymouse 🌹

Kamala Harris Is President Of Making Trump Republicans Sh*t The Bed (Wonkette)

The article goes on about a Vanity Fair writer who spoke to Republican strategists who are concerned Sen. Harris would make a formidable opponent to Trump. (Includes a ten hour YouTube clip of the Law & Order “duh duh” sound, if you’re interested)

Back home in the real world, Harris is in fourth place in the primary and sliding as the cheap shot she took at Biden during the first debate wears off, and performs worse than any of the other top four candidates against Trump. With 86% of primary voters now familiar with her (according to Morning Consult), she doesn’t have the fallback of claiming more people will like her once they get to know her. (It should also be noted that in 2010 and 2014, Harris significantly trailed other California Democrats in statewide elections against Republicans, but was carried along on the waves that Jerry Brown generated.)

135
Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:07:32pm

re: #133 Anymouse 🌹

Kamala Harris Is President Of Making Trump Republicans Sh*t The Bed (Wonkette)

The article goes on about a Vanity Fair writer who spoke to Republican strategists who are concerned Sen. Harris would make a formidable opponent to Trump. (Includes a ten hour YouTube clip of the Law & Order “duh duh” sound, if you’re interested)

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Donald Trump losing to a black woman would be fucking glorious.

136
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:08:09pm

re: #134 Brian J.

on the other hand, it is still way too early to tell, I will start paying closer attention next year in the spring…right now it is just positioning and getting their names out there and talked about

137
cat-tikvah  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:08:38pm

re: #105 I Would Prefer Not To

When we emerge from this nightmare, I don’t EVER want to hear the word “unprecedented” again EVER in my lifetime. EVER.

138
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:10:12pm

re: #134 Brian J.

Back home in the real world, Harris is in fourth place in the primary and sliding as the cheap shot she took at Biden during the first debate wears off, and performs worse than any of the other top four candidates against Trump. With 86% of primary voters now familiar with her (according to Morning Consult), she doesn’t have the fallback of claiming more people will like her once they get to know her. (It should also be noted that in 2010 and 2014, Harris significantly trailed other California Democrats in statewide elections against Republicans, but was carried along on the waves that Jerry Brown generated.)

We’ll have to see what happens. I haven’t settled on a particular candidate, and I imagine a bunch will drop out before or shortly after the Iowa Caucus.

As for the Nebraska Primary (yay, we get one of those this time round), I imagine it will be a pretty short list.

Regardless, any of the candidates is better than Pumpkin Pinochet. (I really don’t want to see Williamson on the ballot, but I’d vote for her if I had to.)

139
Patricia Kayden  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:10:40pm

re: #2 HappyWarrior

Well here we go.

I’m so glad to hear this. We need to hold impeachment hearings to expose Trump’s outrageous conduct. The public needs to know who is in their White House.

140
Patricia Kayden  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:12:48pm

re: #135 Eclectic Cyborg

I think I’d die and go to heaven if that happened. I still remember how happy I was when President Obama won. My family and friends in other countries were so ecstatic and I skipped work the next day. To be honest, I’ll be happy for any Democrat who beats Trump.

141
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:14:06pm

re: #134 Brian J.

Back home in the real world, Harris is in fourth place in the primary and sliding as the cheap shot she took at Biden during the first debate wears off, and performs worse than any of the other top four candidates against Trump. With 86% of primary voters now familiar with her (according to Morning Consult), she doesn’t have the fallback of claiming more people will like her once they get to know her. (It should also be noted that in 2010 and 2014, Harris significantly trailed other California Democrats in statewide elections against Republicans, but was carried along on the waves that Jerry Brown generated.)

I’m just imagining Brian picking John Edwards to win the Democratic nomination.

142
A hollow voice says, Inpeach...  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:15:18pm

re: #138 Anymouse 🌹

We’ll have to see what happens. I haven’t settled on a particular candidate, and I imagine a bunch will drop out before or shortly after the Iowa Caucus.

As for the Nebraska Primary (yay, we get one of those this time round), I imagine it will be a pretty short list.

Regardless, any of the candidates is better than Pumpkin Pinochet. (I really don’t want to see Williamson on the ballot, but I’d vote for her if I had to.)

If the perception among Democrats is that she can beat DT, she’ll zoom right up to the top in the rankings.

143
The Ghost of a Flea  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:15:41pm

re: #132 The Ghost of Rattlesnake Whiskey Man

Okay, so I forgot to curve that back around to address war-fighting.

Trump’s enthusiastic about the idea of war…he gets to make people die, order people to kill, take credit for “wins,” etc…but when you sit him down with generals to go over how war actually works, that fear of failure/culpability is going to make him shrivel. The idea of the war not working to make him feel good and deliver him praise because he might fail and be stuck with blame (the only thing matters) would cause him to balk at beyond gestures, get-in-get-out actions. So we end up with a pattern of line stepping—talking that war-starting shit—refusal to commit, and the “compromise” position of one-time actions that are telegraphing as theater of strength.

And, frankly, I think that’s a good explanation for the kind of warfighting we’ve seen the Trump Administration pull. Droning people and hiding the civilian casualties; the MOAB in Afghanistan and the cruise missiles in Syria, which were pretty much symbolic ordinance detonations; that disastrous special forces raid; the pre-declared troop and fleet movements to make Iran feel pressured.

What sucks about this is that it’s not a hard and fast set of rules such that we’re safe from more stupid war. If Trump’s issues and substance intake ever align with the wrong set of hawk advisors willing to tell him much of a cakewalk an engagement would be…he’d do it. (Chances are good this has already happened…again, consider the messy SF raid)

Carry that over to nukes and we might be slightly safer, because there’s plenty of social cuing that No Bad Baby No Touch to keep Trump away. But he’s also going to fixate on them as the ultimate expression of power and license, and they’re going to be embedded in his masturbatory threat sessions because there’s no bigger source of power rush.

144
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:16:39pm

re: #122 I Would Prefer Not To

I think it’s a false choice. No impeachment or reelection. What if I told that it’s more likely that he will lose if we start the proceedings:
1) Tons of negative info will come out (nothing positive will)
2) He will lose his shit, not a good look during a campaign. Trump can’t handle the pressure…

If you told me that, I’d say that’s possible.

I’d respond that It’s also possible that swing voters might feel like the proceedings are a partisan show trial, or that if Trump is impeached in the House but not convicted in the Senate, people who don’t pay close attention may see it as exoneration and thus the impeachment was a witch hunt, like Trump always said it was.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

145
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:17:17pm

re: #124 Anymouse 🌹

As the tweet from Kevin Kruse noted above, when investigations first started against Richard Nixon, only 16% of the nation was in favour of impeachment. That number didn’t cross 50% until about a month before he resigned.

It was getting the information out in front of the public which did that. Some of its out there now, but more’s coming.

146
William Lewis  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:17:25pm

re: #134 Brian J.

That’s your fantasy world, not the real world. Thankfully your misogyny is not determining the nominee.

147
Brian J.  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:18:41pm

re: #136 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

on the other hand, it is still way too early to tell, I will start paying closer attention next year in the spring…right now it is just positioning and getting their names out there and talked about

She’s been running for six months without significant progress, and the Iowa caucuses are six months from next week. To quote Yogi Berra, “It gets late early out there.”

148
Joe Bacon 🌹  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:19:15pm

149
A Three Hour Tour  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:20:10pm

re: #141 Belafon

I’m just imagining Brian picking John Edwards to win the Democratic nomination.

I made that mistake once.

150
Joe Bacon 🌹  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:21:19pm

re: #149 A Three Hour Tour

I made that mistake once.

I did vote for Edwards in the 2004 California primary.

But by 2008 no way in hell voting for him.

151
I Would Prefer Not To  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:21:48pm

re: #144 Blind Frog Belly White

If you told me that, I’d say that’s possible.

I’d respond that It’s also possible that swing voters might feel like the proceedings are a partisan show trial, or that if Trump is impeached in the House but not convicted in the Senate, people who don’t pay close attention may see it as exoneration and thus the impeachment was a witch hunt, like Trump always said it was.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

To me it comes down to our we better off sticking our head in the sand or fighting for what we believe to be just. (again, there are other choices, but it seems to come down to fighting or not fighting).

Also, the same is true for trump’s plan.

152
Old Liberal  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:22:04pm

re: #140 Patricia Kayden

I think I’d die and go to heaven if that happened. I still remember how happy I was when President Obama won. My family and friends in other countries were so ecstatic and I skipped work the next day. To be honest, I’ll be happy for any Democrat who beats Trump.

Wasn’t that something? We thought the world had changed. It had. And these reactionaries couldn’t handle that. So they’re burning it down

153
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:22:30pm

re: #149 A Three Hour Tour

I made that mistake once.

Yeah, but even if you did in July 2007 I doubt you did it in May of 2008.

154
Joe Bacon 🌹  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:23:16pm

Meanwhile Slumlord Sean continues to beat the Seth Rich drum.

Hoping against hope that Seth’s parents sue the shit out of him.

crooksandliars.com

155
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:23:39pm

re: #151 I Would Prefer Not To

To me it comes down to our we better off sticking our head in the sand or fighting for what we believe to be just. (again, there are other choices, but it seems to come down to fighting or not fighting).

Also, the same is true for trump’s plan.

Remember the Alamo. No, really, remember the fight at the Alamo.

156
gocart mozart  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:24:47pm
157
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:24:52pm

Former blue-check Republican Trump supporter to Jerry Nadler;

158
Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:25:45pm

re: #148 Joe Bacon 🌹

[Embedded content]

Yep, tax cuts for the really rich, de-regulation for the hinterland gentry (the heart and soul of his support), and the crumbs of white privilege for the goobers.

159
MsJ  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:25:47pm

re: #4 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

Nancy’s strategy seems to be to let someone else “talk her into it”…

Or, alternately, she counts votes before bringing shit to the floor.

160
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:26:07pm

re: #131 Brian J.

Flopping about impotently like trout on dry land will not discourage future abuse of power. I’d be a lot more likely to support impeachment if its proponents were honest in saying that failure to convict was certain, and that an impeached President (or an impeached and acquitted one) has all the same powers as an unimpeached one.

apollo 13:

There’s a thousand things that have to happen in order.
We are on number eight. You’re talking about number 692.

hell, we’re not even on number eight yet and you’ve leapfrogged to #1,000.

161
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:27:34pm

re: #133 Anymouse 🌹

Kamala Harris Is President Of Making Trump Republicans Sh*t The Bed (Wonkette)

The article goes on about a Vanity Fair writer who spoke to Republican strategists who are concerned Sen. Harris would make a formidable opponent to Trump. (Includes a ten hour YouTube clip of the Law & Order “duh duh” sound, if you’re interested)

trump will try to weasel out of the debates with whoever wins the Dem nom.

162
Dread Pirate  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:27:58pm
163
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:28:32pm

I’m just amazed Brian hasn’t brought up AOC yet.

164
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:28:52pm

re: #158 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Or as I’ve noted before, when people say “why do conservative voters vote against their own interests” the answer is “racism is their interest.”

165
MsJ  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:29:03pm

re: #45 HappyWarrior

Your constituents want you to support increasing the minimum wage and I’m willing to bet you oppose that.

THAT’S DIFFERENT!!!!!11!!!!!

166
NO SMOCKING GUN!  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:29:35pm

Thread in which the victim of a troll attack recounts his war with them, and the enormous effort he had to go through to talk to a real live person at Twitter and get his account reinstated.

167
Belafon  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:29:37pm

(That’s called bait, btw)

168
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:30:09pm

re: #147 Brian J.

She’s been running for six months without significant progress, and the Iowa caucuses are six months from next week. To quote Yogi Berra, “It gets late early out there.”

Former Presidents Howard Dean and Michael Dukakis were just talking about how everything is all sewed up 17 months before the election.

169
lawhawk  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:30:40pm

re: French v. American wines….

Something I had overlooked - Trump family owns a winery in VA.

170
I Would Prefer Not To  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:30:59pm

re: #155 Belafon

Remember the Alamo. No, really, remember the fight at the Alamo.

I would like to think we are on the side against slavery, but I think the war analogies fail here. It’s more a civil rights issue than a war issue. When people were risking their necks for voting rights in the south a solid majority were against them. They did it anyway. They didn’t wait for favorable poll numbers. That’s leadership.

171
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:32:01pm

LOL

172
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:33:03pm

re: #159 MsJ

Or, alternately, she counts votes before bringing shit to the floor.

(insert cute little girl “Why Not Both?” meme here)

173
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:34:47pm

re: #163 Belafon

I’m just amazed Brian hasn’t brought up AOC yet.

I’m willing to bet real money that last summer he rattled on about how AOC et al. were gonna lose us the election and give the GOP a permanent House majority.

174
makeitstop  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:34:53pm

re: #163 Belafon

I’m just amazed Brian hasn’t brought up AOC yet.

He played that one the last time he dropped in.

175
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:34:57pm

re: #144 Blind Frog Belly White

If you told me that, I’d say that’s possible.

I’d respond that It’s also possible that swing voters might feel like the proceedings are a partisan show trial, or that if Trump is impeached in the House but not convicted in the Senate, people who don’t pay close attention may see it as exoneration and thus the impeachment was a witch hunt, like Trump always said it was.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

- i’ve mentioned several times the idea of holding the hearings and then not voting thus robbing the senate of grandstanding with the trial
- depending on what they uncover, you are right that the reaction may be to see it as exoneration - especially if the investigation is weak
- (i think that’s unlikely considering what we already know)

here’s yet another scenario:

- the house starts investigating
- they build a strong case
- they know they have the votes for impeachment
- they hold the vote next october
- no time for the senate to hold a grandstanding trial before november

( i can dream cant i?)

176
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:36:36pm

re: #175 DangerMan

- i’ve mentioned several times the idea of holding the hearings and then not voting thus robbing the senate of grandstanding with the trial
- depending on what they uncover, you are right that the reaction may be to see it as exoneration - especially if the investigation is weak
- (i think that’s unlikely considering what we already know)

here’s yet another scenario:

- the house starts investigating
- they build a strong case
- they know they have the votes for impeachment
- they hold the vote next october
- no time for the senate to hold a grandstanding trial before november

( i can dream cant i?)

The hearings took FOREVER with Watergate. And Nixon wasn’t stonewalling anywhere near as much as Trump is/will.

177
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:37:23pm

re: #148 Joe Bacon 🌹

[Embedded content]

that’s what the series of tim wise (?) tweets said the other day

dont argue with these people about the racism and lies - they are a lost cause.

Run on the racism, lies, etc so everyone else who doesnt know gets disgusted

178
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:38:04pm

re: #147 Brian J.

She’s been running for six months without significant progress, and the Iowa caucuses are six months from next week. To quote Yogi Berra, “It gets late early out there.”

This unknown guy named Barack Obama was being outpolled 3-1 by Hillary Clinton in 2008.

fivethirtyeight.com

Heading into the Iowa caucus. She finished third, behind Obama and John Edwards.

179
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:40:03pm

re: #162 Dread Pirate

DIA analysts say North Korea may have produced 12 nuclear weapons since the first Trump-Kim summit. Wow.

and in case it’s not painfully obvious, they didnt just decide to start this process after the first summit

180
DangerMan  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:42:08pm

re: #169 lawhawk

re: French v. American wines….

Something I had overlooked - Trump family owns a winery in VA.

Trump family owns a winery in Virginia. There’s always a money angle for the family. ALWAYS.

nobody bought that bilgewater before
they aint gonna buy it now

181
Anymouse 🌹🎃  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:44:38pm

re: #176 Blind Frog Belly White

The hearings took FOREVER with Watergate. And Nixon wasn’t stonewalling anywhere near as much as Trump is/will.

Where “forever” equaled fifteen months.

And Nixon stalled on all sorts of crap. He even went to the Supreme Court to prevent his tapes from being released, and went to court over a whole bunch of crap.

He initially denied any knowledge of what happened.

The media initially was supportive of Nixon during his reëlection campaign, but when the Washington Post made the connexion between the DNC Headquarters break-in and Nixon operatives, the press started to turn against him (you can make just as much money tearing down a president as you can building one up).

182
ckkatz  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:57:29pm

From last thread:

re: #205 Barefoot Grin

I was disappointed while watching but having time to listen to clips again, I think he was mostly effective when he needed to be. And it was a two-way street: when the GOP members were yelling at him he got them all flustered with “could you repeat the question?” And Ted Lieu walked him effectively through the necessary elements of obstruction so that, even having supposedly walked back his admission that he would have indicted Trump but for OLC memo, he basically said “hell yes, he obstructed!”

I have no idea whether Mueller may be in some sort of decline. Certainly, at a minimum, a 75 year old is not as energetic as a 40 year old.

A few thoughts from an admitted non-expert…

First, there is a strict dividing line between the politicians who depend upon public personal grandstanding and the technocrats (like Mueller) who gain nothing from it, so avoid it. And that dividing line is generally respected.

Mueller is well aware that he was not the real star of the hearings, the politicians were. And it was in his interest to not pretend to be. In terms of Mueller, this optics stuff is nonsense. And apparently a Republican talking point.

From what I can see, the tv personas discussing ‘optics’ are simply regurgitating Republican talking points. Whether out of incompetence, being a ‘true believer’, laziness, or dishonesty, they are certainly not doing journalism. Fortunately, I do seem to see a general trend of discounting that talking point.

I think that Mueller actually achieved his goal; To provide the report findings and get out of the way. It, maybe, wasn’t elegant, but, irl, this stuff never is.

Second, Mueller was FBI director at the time of 9/11. At that point, the FBI conducted two kinds of investigations, criminal and intelligence.

Because of the need for to keep classified information secret, criminal investigations generally avoided attempting to use it. In fact, to avoid tainting a criminal investigation, there was a strict wall between criminal and intelligence investigations. To some degree it was enshrined in the law.

Due to criticism that this wall hindered the FBI attempts to uncover the 9/11 conspiracy, this wall was modified in the aftermath of 9/11.

As far as I can tell, during the investigation, Mueller respected that wall and generally handled the domestic and criminal, rather than intelligence portion. Additionally, after all the criticism about Starr’s handling of the investigation, he was very careful to stay within carefully defined boundaries.

I would guess that Mueller and his associates looked at investigating Trumps finances, and interviewing Trump. And decided that the cost of pursuing those avenues would a lot higher than the benefits derived.

183
Blind Frog Belly White  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:58:40pm

re: #182 ckkatz

(Psssst! We all went to the next thread!)

184
A Three Hour Tour  Jul 26, 2019 • 1:58:53pm

re: #153 Belafon

Yeah, but even if you did in July 2007 I doubt you did it in May of 2008.

In 2008, I supported Hillary for the Democratic nomination, with McCain my fallback for the GOP. I thought that Obama, while charismatic, needed four additional years in the Senate for seasoning and that 2012 should be his year to run.

After Hillary lost the nomination, I was one of those annoying PUMA bastards and supported McCain while my wife volunteered for the local Obama campaign. I pulled the lever for McCain in November … and was relieved and grateful that Obama won by a landslide. Seriously, it was like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders.

I immediately unplugged from all online political blogs until the inauguration … especially the Pajamas Media family and LGF … to detoxify, reevaluate, and deprogram myself from my post-9/11 induced craniorectal inversion.

In March 2009, I took a peek back in to the blogs I had considered the more sane conservative blogs after Obama had introduced and advocated for some policy initiatives that I liked and the so-called sane conservatives were sounding unhinged.

Then, I heard about Charles’ break with the right-wing blogosphere, and I started lurking here more regularly.

185
A Three Hour Tour  Jul 26, 2019 • 2:07:09pm

re: #183 Blind Frog Belly White

(Psssst! We all went to the next thread!)

CL-ed again.

Well, I did lurk for about 10 years before registering, so it may be appropriate.

186
MsJ  Jul 26, 2019 • 2:30:51pm

re: #172 Blind Frog Belly White

(insert cute little girl “Why Not Both?” meme here)

That works be a huge mistake. If pelosi brings something to the floor and it fails, then it’s game over.

187
Eventual Carrion  Jul 26, 2019 • 4:26:13pm

re: #176 Blind Frog Belly White

The hearings took FOREVER with Watergate. And Nixon wasn’t stonewalling anywhere near as much as Trump is/will.

And the tapes are totally different with the 2 situations also. One was missing tape and the other is pissing tape.


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The Good Liars at The Libertarian Convention [VIDEO] The Good Liars visit the Libertarian Convention in Washington DC. They interview presidential candidates, talk to someone who thinks people should be allowed to own nuclear weapons, and Starchild. SUPPORT US: http://Herohero.co/thegoodliars SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!NASHVILLE, TN JUNE ...
teleskiguy
Yesterday
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Ranked-Choice Voting Has Challenged the Status Quo. Its Popularity Will Be Tested in November. JUNEAU — Alaska’s new election system — with open primaries and ranked voting — has been a model for those in other states who are frustrated by political polarization and a sense that voters lack real choice at the ...
Cheechako
5 days ago
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