Swine Flu Is Evolution in Action

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Last weekend in a post about swine flu, I remarked that the appearance of this virus is a perfect example of rapid evolution in action. Amazingly, this triggered a couple of emails from people denying that viruses evolve, and one comment from a reader who said I was “becoming an extremist” because I pointed out this simple, uncontroversial fact.

Here’s an article at LiveScience on this subject, with statements from other extremists such as bioengineers and wildlife researchers: Swine Flu Is Evolution in Action.

While much of the modern controversy over evolution centers around whether humans evolved from non-human primates (scientists overwhelmingly agree this is the case), some people still try to poke holes in the theory of evolution, one of the most solid theories in science. In addition to evidence from ancient fossils and modern DNA studies, one of the many lines of evidence supporting evolution is that it can quite simply be seen in action among some species that evolve particularly rapidly, such as fruit flies.

But on no stage does evolution unfold more quickly or with more potentially sickening or lethal consequences for humans than among viruses. It is, to pass on a scary phrase used among scientists and marketers, viral evolution. And you could be the star host of this all-too-often deadly show.

The sudden ability of the new swine flu virus to hop from pigs to humans and then to skip from person to person, at least in Mexico, is an excellent example of evolution at work.

“Yes, this is definitely evolution,” said Michael Deem, a bioengineer at Rice University in Texas.

Deem studies how evolution is affected not just by mutations but by the exchange of entire genes and sets of genes. Viruses, which are basically packets of DNA with a protein coat, are really good at this. Viruses are also really good at exploiting the fact that we humans cough and sneeze without covering ourselves and generally don’t wash our hands frequently in a day.

“Viruses have evolved to exploit human contact as a way of spreading,” points out Peter Daszak of the Wildlife Trust, whose team 14 months ago predicted just this sort of evolution in an animal flu, coming from Latin America to the United States after evolving to infect people.

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360 comments
1 capitalist piglet  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:56:49am

Charles, why do you hate pigs?

2 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:57:06am

well, the virus is obviously an intelligent design.....

/white smoke

3 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:57:32am

re: #2 redc1c4

well, the virus is obviously an intelligent design.....

/white smoke

Is that you, Alex Jones?
//

4 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:57:47am

re: #1 capitalist piglet

Charles, why do you hate pigs?

because he has to bring home the bacon.

5 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:58:20am

Didn't any of these people see the Andromeda strain?

6 alegrias  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:58:30am

White House Spokesman Robert Gibbs is talking about a Department of Energy employment and his son with this H1N1 flu; they live in Maryland's Anne Arundel County where they sought treatment. And he's back at work today!

7 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:58:40am

Shucks, & I thought is was a bit of Sodom & Gomorrah from the Creator.

/ducks

8 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:58:42am

Will swine flu one day evolve into Democrats?

9 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:03am

re: #5 Nevergiveup

Didn't any of these people see the Andromeda strain?

Yes, but they thought it was a real-time documentary.

10 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:06am

No, it's a genetically engineered superbug meant to take out all the conservatives in the country...

11 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:08am

And the rampant use of antivirals for simple (non life threatening) infections is speeding things up.

12 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:15am

re: #8 Cygnus

Will swine flu one day evolve into Democrats?

Or vice versa?

13 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:21am

re: #8 Cygnus

Will swine flu one day evolve into Democrats?

that would more correctly be devolution.....

14 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:30am

"God created this virus to punish illegal aliens." -Jerry Falwell //

15 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:44am

re: #8 Cygnus

Will swine flu one day evolve into Democrats?

I was thinking it is the other way round.

16 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:40am

The difference between right wing & left wing kooks, regarding swine flu:

Right-wing kook: "The Government created this flu & is using it to infect people so the President can declare Marshall [sic] Law! Wake up, people!"

Left-wing kook: Will say the same thing if a Republican is President. And will probably throw in something about "The Corporations."

17 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:40am

Alex Jones - IMPORTANT BROADCAST - 4-29-09 11/13

It's all a plot to establish the North American Union. Panic!

18 NYCHardhat  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:49am

The only pigs with the flu are in Congress.

19 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:54am

This whole "swine flu" thing is obviously a Bush/Cheney creation intended to hit the minorities in this country since they have the least health care.

///////////////////////// is this really necessary? ///////////////////////////////////

20 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:01:01am

Did Got create viruses?

21 Right mind left  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:01:13am

re: #8 Cygnus

Will swine flu one day evolve into Democrats?

re: #15 unreconstructed rebel

I was thinking it is the other way round.

With rats in their name it might be more bacterial (boob-onic plague)!
/

22 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:01:21am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

"Bilderburger Flu"

23 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:01:33am

re: #13 redc1c4

that would more correctly be devolution.....

Goodness, I think you're right. My apologies to viruses everywhere.

24 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:01:52am

Gen. David Petraeus, commander of U.S. Central Command, has told U.S. officials the next two weeks are critical to determining whether the Pakistani government will survive, FOX News has learned.

"The Pakistanis have run out of excuses" and are "finally getting serious" about combating the threat from Taliban and Al Qaeda extremists operating out of Northwest Pakistan, the general added.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Gee I hope I don't get the Flu?

25 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:02:04am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

"Swinetrails"

26 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:02:16am

re: #20 Cato the Elder

Did Got create viruses?

Yeah, but it was meant as a Joke?

27 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:02:25am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Could you imagine the guy from City Wok on South Park trying to say that? Hilarious!

28 jcm  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:02:32am

No shit, we've watched Biden evolve from a simple moron to a blithering idiot.

29 KenJen  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:02:52am

This swine flu is scaring a lot of people. They should change the name to "this little piggy went to the market" flu. Less scary. This little piggy stayed home.

30 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:02:58am

re: #27 Guanxi88

Could you imagine the guy from City Wok on South Park trying to say that? Hilarious!

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Or Kim Jong Il from their Team America flick?

Good stuff

31 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:03:12am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

By shutting down the border and limiting trade and travel with Mexico?

32 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:03:14am

re: #25 jaunte

at about 3:50....

"The United States as we know it is over with"
33 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:03:22am

re: #28 jcm

No shit, we've watched Biden evolve from a simple moron to a blithering idiot.

Double-ding

34 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:03:34am

MOBILE, Ala. — A judge ordered a death sentence Thursday for a Vietnamese refugee convicted of murdering four young children by tossing them from an 80-foot-high bridge on the Alabama coast.

Circuit Judge Charles Graddick handed down the death sentence to Lam Luong and said he would order prison officials to show Luong photographs of the four children each day he is on death row.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

35 alegrias  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:03:58am

As proof, most people know if you don't take your full dose of some medicines, the bug you're trying to kill grows stronger, that is, evolves and adapts to resist "predator" medicines trying to kill the disease.

All Americans should take more math & science courses to address the inumeracy and illiteracy on these subject.

Teachers unions need to improve their teaching and actually TEACH these harder subjects instead of indoctrinating their students with social studies.

36 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:04:08am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

How many times has he said that; I bet this wasn't the first.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:04:09am

re: #10 Cato the Elder

No, it's a genetically engineered superbug meant to take out all the conservatives in the country...

Word on the street in Mexico, I hear, is that the narcotrafficantes set it loose to distract the government from their activities.

Meanwhile, people are writing in to the local paper demanding that we 'seal the border', all 2000 miles of it.

38 Kragar  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:04:36am

Heard this morning that researchers had already broken it down and determined the regular winter flu outbreak is more severe than this strain

39 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:04:38am

re: #34 Nevergiveup

MOBILE, Ala. — A judge ordered a death sentence Thursday for a Vietnamese refugee convicted of murdering four young children by tossing them from an 80-foot-high bridge on the Alabama coast.

Circuit Judge Charles Graddick handed down the death sentence to Lam Luong and said he would order prison officials to show Luong photographs of the four children each day he is on death row.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Nice work, Your Honor.

40 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:04:45am

re: #31 lawhawk

Yup, They're limiting movement to establish control of the population and round up everybody into FEMA camps for forced vaccinations.

41 saberry0530  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:05:31am

Since WHO wants to change the name and Islam has a policy against it, and I can see that the Obama administration is trying to use it as a crisis to advance their healthcare agenda, why don't we just call it the "SWINDLED FLU"!

42 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:05:31am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

Word on the street in Mexico, I hear, is that the narcotrafficantes set it loose to distract the government from their activities.

Meanwhile, people are writing in to the local paper demanding that we 'seal the border', all 2000 miles of it.

But not with a fence, that would be cruel....

43 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:05:41am

Swine flu has evolved from other versions, but this particular strain isn't as dangerous as the media hype has suggested. And don't get me started on Biden.

44 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:05:48am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Yup, They're limiting movement to establish control of the population and round up everybody into FEMA camps for forced vaccinations.

And micro-chips. Don't forget the micro-ships for tracking and control in preparation for the mass-slaughter of humanity.

45 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:00am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

This nut has read 'The Stand' one too many times. Has Flagg moved into the MGM Grand yet?

46 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:01am

Barney Frank says "oops".

Protects those who support voter fraud.

By Jessica Holzer
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank, D-Mass., admitting he had made a mistake, said Thursday he would try to remove a measure from a mortgage lending bill after supporting it earlier this week in his committee.
The measure, offered as an amendment by Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., would bar people or organizations indicted on allegations of voter fraud from receiving federal housing counseling and legal assistance grants.
"I made a mistake yesterday in not objecting to the Bachmann amendment. I did not read it carefully, and it was in the last minute that the amendment was accepted. It is a deeply flawed amendment and I am opposed to it," Frank said in a statement Thursday.
The amendment passed Frank's committee Wednesday. Frank said he would offer a "corrected amendment" on the floor when the mortgage lending legislation is considered by the House next week. He argued the amendment would violate basic principles of due process.
Frank's statement came shortly after Bachmann issued a press release to tout the passage of her amendment. She said it could prevent groups such as ACORN, which have been under investigation in connection with alleged voter fraud in some states, from accessing federal funds.

Sorry - no link - off of a trade wire.

47 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:01am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Yup, They're limiting movement to establish control of the population and round up everybody into FEMA camps for forced vaccinations.

Having watched FEMA up close & personal thru a number of hurricanes, that is a very scary thought.

48 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:02am
49 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:07am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Yup, They're limiting movement to establish control of the population and round up everybody into FEMA camps for forced vaccinations.

Just last year those camps were being run by Halliburton. Just another example of the Government taking over private enterprise!
///

50 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:25am

re: #28 jcm

No shit, we've watched Biden evolve from a simple moron to a blithering idiot.

...who no longer takes the train.
Effin' moron!

51 rightside  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:41am

re: #34 Nevergiveup

cue the aclu in 3...2...1...

52 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:55am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

*head slap*

53 freedombilly  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:56am

OT: Gibbs is getting hammered right now which has been quite enjoyable to watch.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:07:22am

re: #42 wrenchwench

But not with a fence, that would be cruel....

Nah, the guy this morning wants the fence. As far as I can tell, the concept is that we stop trade with Mexico, don't let anyone go see their parents, and stop tourism, until such time as we can trust the entire nation of Mexico to never get sick again.

55 nyc redneck  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:07:23am

this is why it is so difficult to eradicate the flu.
by the time one vaccine is developed for a certain strain, it has morphed into
something else altogether.
rapid evolution of the flu is why we keep getting sick.

56 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:07:30am

re: #11 Bubblehead II

And the rampant use of antivirals antibiotics for simple (non life threatening) infections is speeding things up.

My bad.

57 alegrias  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:07:36am

re: #34 Nevergiveup

MOBILE, Ala. — A judge ordered a death sentence Thursday for a Vietnamese refugee convicted of murdering four young children by tossing them from an 80-foot-high bridge on the Alabama coast.

Circuit Judge Charles Graddick handed down the death sentence to Lam Luong and said he would order prison officials to show Luong photographs of the four children each day he is on death row.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

* * * *
Good riddance to a violent infanticidal nutjob.

58 turn  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:08:08am

"Scientists say it could take six months to develop a vaccine for the new swine flu, and by then, nobody knows what it will have evolved into.

Maybe I'm naive but that is precisely why I've never bothered to get a flu shot. I understand even if the shot is not the exact same evolved strain it may still give you some degree of immunity but I've also heard you can feel icky after the shot too. Icky isn't worth the small degree of immunity in my mind.

59 Irish Rose  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:08:19am
Amazingly, this triggered a couple of emails from people denying that viruses evolve, and one comment from a reader who said I was “becoming an extremist” because I pointed out this simple, uncontroversial fact.

Some people will deliberately utilize any route for personal attack, simply because they can.

Others feel threatened by science, so they stay as far away from it as possible to feel comfortable with their religiosity.

Ignorance, no matter how you slice it.

60 Right mind left  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:08:39am

Are they going to say that antibodies are racist too?

/

61 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:18am

re: #53 freedombilly

OT: Gibbs is getting hammered right now which has been quite enjoyable to watch.

mmm...uhhh....I'm not sure.....

62 vxbush  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:25am

re: #25 jaunte

"Swinetrails"

Definitely a "Pigs in Space" episode.

/

63 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:25am
64 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:38am

re: #60 Right mind left

Are they going to say that antibodies are racist too?

/

I'm pro-body, provided that the body in question is that of a South American supermodel.

65 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:44am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist The Department of Homeland Security will shortly announce a lucrative contract with the "As Seen on TV" corporation to develop a Seal-a-Meal machine large enough to hermetically seal the entire Mexican/US border. Billy Mays, company spokesperson is quoted as saying, "...but wait, that's not all! If you order today we will also include the Canadian border absolutely free!"

66 ConservatismNow!  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:45am

re: #38 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Heard this morning that researchers had already broken it down and determined the regular winter flu outbreak is more severe than this strain

Your facts don't affect me. Who are you going to trust, some crotchety old researcher or the millions of anonymous posters on Twitter?

67 summergurl  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:52am

re: #53 freedombilly

OT: Gibbs is getting hammered right now which has been quite enjoyable to watch.

And TOTUS doesn't.

13 questions - all answers timed --- no more no less... just 13.

68 turn  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:10:10am

re: #53 freedombilly

OT: Gibbs is getting hammered right now which has been quite enjoyable to watch.

I like watching that guy squirm too, unfortunately I'm not watching TV.

69 rightside  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:10:11am

re: #63 rike101

6 posts....goodbye!

70 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:10:23am

re: #26 Nevergiveup

Yeah, but it was meant as a Joke?

You mean like the stinky tree in "Time Bandits"?

71 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:10:24am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

[Link: www.ew.com...]

72 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:10:30am

Preposterous. Adam and Eve rode around on the backs of tame swine flu virii in the Garden of Eden.

73 summergurl  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:10:51am

re: #68 turn

I like watching that guy squirm too, unfortunately I'm not watching TV.


I turned it on - very enjoyable


There is a tally for questions?

74 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:02am

re: #58 turn

"Scientists say it could take six months to develop a vaccine for the new swine flu, and by then, nobody knows what it will have evolved into.

Maybe I'm naive but that is precisely why I've never bothered to get a flu shot. I understand even if the shot is not the exact same evolved strain it may still give you some degree of immunity but I've also heard you can feel icky after the shot too. Icky isn't worth the small degree of immunity in my mind.

My office has done them free for employees for the last 20 years. 20-40 people, no one has felt icky yet, and it helps cut down on sick time.

75 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:06am

Have any young earthers taken this tack?

Viral disease: Intelligent Design - the Punishment Phase.

76 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:21am

re: #73 summergurl

I turned it on - very enjoyable

There is a tally for questions?


Come, Mr. Tally-man, tally his evasions!

77 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:31am

re: #72 Occasional Reader

Preposterous. Adam and Eve rode around on the backs of tame swine flu virii in the Garden of Eden.

And Noah made sure to include two of every virus on The Ark.

78 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:31am
79 JohnnyReb  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:40am

re: #58 turn

"Scientists say it could take six months to develop a vaccine for the new swine flu, and by then, nobody knows what it will have evolved into.

Maybe I'm naive but that is precisely why I've never bothered to get a flu shot. I understand even if the shot is not the exact same evolved strain it may still give you some degree of immunity but I've also heard you can feel icky after the shot too. Icky isn't worth the small degree of immunity in my mind.

If you are over 50 or have a compromised immune system, you are taking a big gamble if you don't get the flu shot. If you are young and healthy, it is not a big deal.

80 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:42am

re: #63 rike101

Another evolution post? I think we understand your position now, Charles.

And you also understand that he's against jihad, right? So I assume you insist on him not posting anymore on that subject either?

81 NYCHardhat  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:04am

re: #63 rike101

Yawn. Another evolution post? I think we understand your position now, Charles. This blog barely resembles the one I first found and enjoyed years ago.

Is this your blog?

82 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:10am
83 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:20am

re: #63 rike101

Yawn. Another evolution post? I think we understand your position now, Charles. This blog barely resembles the one I first found and enjoyed years ago.

Right - many years ago. You enjoyed reading so much, you didn't register for years and years and never made comments. Who are you?

84 freedombilly  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:29am

re: #61 Cygnus

I loved the reporter who asked about Biden saying something stupid speaking this morning and that some said it bordered on fear mongering. He then explained what Biden meant to say and many in the room busted into actual laughter.

They need somebody better in this job and I'm happy they don't currently have that person.

85 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:29am

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

And just one week ago:

Lee's Casa-Blanca store on South El Paso Street is about 50 yards from the bridge. His shop, like most of the others in Central and Downtown El Paso, relies heavily on foot traffic from Juárez. In the past eight years they have seen a huge drop in sales, mostly because foot traffic on the Paso del Norte Bridge had dropped.

Now, about 15,500 pedestrians cross each day at the Paso del Norte Bridge. In December 2000, before the terrorist attacks and before the drug cartel violence in Juárez erupted, more than 35,000 people walked across the bridge most days.

86 summergurl  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:34am

re: #76 Guanxi88

Come, Mr. Tally-man, tally his evasions!


Yeah I am wondering what this lady reporter was referring to..

Is there a tick sheet somewhere?

She said she didn't want that counted as her "real question". ?

87 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:35am

re: #75 Catttt

Have any young earthers taken this tack?

Viral disease: Intelligent Design - the Punishment Phase.

No old-earther ever would.

88 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:36am

re: #72 Occasional Reader

Preposterous. Adam and Eve rode around on the backs of tame swine flu virii in the Garden of Eden.

Keeping the girth strap tight was likely a problem.

89 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:12:40am

re: #78 buzzsawmonkey

I thought they had a matched paramecium.

You should be flagella-ted for that one.

90 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:13:17am

re: #86 summergurl

Yeah I am wondering what this lady reporter was referring to..

Is there a tick sheet somewhere?

She said she didn't want that counted as her "real question". ?

Mulligans at pressers? Eh, these days, why not?

91 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:13:24am

re: #82 DaddyG

Stinky just twitched something awful. You sure you meant to go without the sarc tag?

I concur. Um, buzz, please tell us you were kidding.

92 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:13:38am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

Word on the street in Mexico, I hear, is that the narcotrafficantes set it loose to distract the government from their activities.

Meanwhile, people are writing in to the local paper demanding that we 'seal the border', all 2000 miles of it.

Good luck with that.

Got this from Medaura's husband:

Scientists see this flu strain as relatively mild

As the World Health Organization raised its infectious disease alert level Wednesday and health officials confirmed the first death linked to swine flu inside U.S. borders, scientists studying the virus are coming to the consensus that this hybrid strain of influenza -- at least in its current form -- isn't shaping up to be as fatal as the strains that caused some previous pandemics.

In fact, the current outbreak of the H1N1 virus, which emerged in San Diego and southern Mexico late last month, may not even do as much damage as the run-of-the-mill flu outbreaks that occur each winter without much fanfare.

93 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:13:41am

re: #8 Cygnus

Will swine flu one day evolve into Democrats?

No, it has do devolve. Democrats are already less evolved.

94 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:14:04am

re: #77 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

And Noah made sure to include two of every virus on The Ark.

Noah: Reaching for bottle on desk in his quarters.

Mrs. Noah: "No, wait! Don't drink that one!"

95 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:14:13am
96 alegrias  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:14:17am

re: #46 karmic_inquisitor

Barney Frank says "oops".

Protects those who support voter fraud.

Sorry - no link - off of a trade wire.

* * * * *
Probable Friends of Barney:

I'm pretty sure my local Alexandria Residential Housing Authority (ARHA) is in cahoots with ACORN and receiving "housing" funds. You never saw such "community organizing" in a hood that rarely votes unless the Dem ward heelers pay people to vote. This is an open air drug market & full of crime as is.

We have a 100% democrat run city, and a dweeby part time democrat Gov. Tim "Eyebrow" Kaine, and now ARHA will get federal bailouts & ACORN money to boot, plus the prospect of GITMO Boyz in our hood.

97 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:14:19am

re: #63 rike101

Then why are you still here?

Karma: 0

rike101

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jun 25, 2007 at 8:33 am
No. of comments posted: 6
No. of links posted: 0

98 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:14:47am

re: #88 jaunte

Keeping the girth strap tight was likely a problem.

Bean and Germ must never mate
It is written on this grape!

-Hypno-germs, folks, ATHF

99 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:15:01am

re: #64 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I'm pro-body, provided that the body in question is that of a South American supermodel.

Ah... good that you clarified. I had a couple of Slavic supermodels all ready to send your way, but I've sent them home now.

100 Emerald  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:15:20am

Right... every strain of the flu ever known to mankind has existed since the beginning of time. New varieties never, ever show up, rendering old vaccines worthless. New varieties never cause pandemics because no one has antibodies to that new particular strain.

It must be confusing living in a world were logic doesn't work.

101 Russkilitlover  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:15:32am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist


Meanwhile, people are writing in to the local paper demanding that we 'seal the border', all 2000 miles of it.

Gee, if we got started on the fence oh, say, 3 years ago, we might actually have a shot.

102 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:15:38am

re: #89 Occasional Reader

You should be flagella-ted for that one.

Bacteria puns? How cilia of you.

103 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:15:41am

re: #98 Guanxi88

Bean and Germ must never mate
It is written on this grape!

-Hypno-germs, folks, ATHF

Didn't care for that episode, a little too weird, even by ATHF standards.

104 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:06am

re: #34 Nevergiveup

MOBILE, Ala. — A judge ordered a death sentence Thursday for a Vietnamese refugee convicted of murdering four young children by tossing them from an 80-foot-high bridge on the Alabama coast.

Circuit Judge Charles Graddick handed down the death sentence to Lam Luong and said he would order prison officials to show Luong photographs of the four children each day he is on death row.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I hope they throw him off the same bridge.

105 turn  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:08am

re: #74 jaunte

My office has done them free for employees for the last 20 years. 20-40 people, no one has felt icky yet, and it helps cut down on sick time.

Thanks, wow 20 years of shots and not one icky. The MIL is in her 70's and complains about not feeling well after her shots. How do you know it cuts down on sick time? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just curious.

106 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:08am
107 dwells38  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:17am

Microevolution in specific I think. Because it's within species. But definitely evolution. Enough microevolution occurs along with speciation and you get macroevolution eventually I think is how it works. Usually that takes too long to see in a human lifetime.

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:20am

This morning, after morning prayers on the PA system, our director made an announcement to the kids about the swine flu. "I've talked to the diocese about the situation..." he says, and I can see the kids listening intently, and I suddenly realize they think he's going to close the school.

"...wash your hands regularly," he says, "be careful to cover sneezes and coughs with a tissue..." and I see them drooooop, because he's NOT gonna close the school.

Poor little ones.

/

109 Kragar  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:27am

re: #102 Cygnus

Bacteria puns? How cilia of you.

Its all done in fungus.

110 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:29am

re: #63 rike101

Yawn. Another evolution post? I think we understand your position now, Charles. This blog barely resembles the one I first found and enjoyed years ago.

I usually enjoy playing with trolls, but this one seems to easy.

111 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:34am

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Thanks.

112 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:49am

re: #106 buzzsawmonkey

Just sent in a report on myself.

Charles, please remove my #48, and accept my apologies.

Now spank yourself!

HARDER!

113 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:55am

re: #74 jaunte

My office has done them free for employees for the last 20 years. 20-40 people, no one has felt icky yet, and it helps cut down on sick time.

Mine does that too every year. Also, the Giant grocery chain is doing it for free (you have to get signed up, but there are no strings).

114 summergurl  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:17:34am

re: #110 DaddyG

I usually enjoy playing with trolls, but this one seems to easy.


Not even gamey....

115 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:17:42am

re: #109 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its all done in fungus.

Any more puns in spore for this thread?

116 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:17:44am

re: #63 rike101

Well, I guess all I can say is, bye, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. You committed profile suicide, dingbat, not martyred.

117 freedombilly  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:17:53am

re: #63 rike101

Yawn. Another evolution post? I think we understand your position now, Charles. This blog barely resembles the one I first found and enjoyed years ago.

11 out of the 13 posts that Charles has made in the last two days have had nothing to do with evolution. Why not just go read those rather than be the 1,000th person to complain about evolution threads?

118 Right mind left  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:03am

re: #64 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I'm pro-body, provided that the body in question is that of a South American supermodel.

I'm sure you can get a trade agreement without preconditions...if you "posed" as a dictator?

119 Russkilitlover  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:03am

re: #69 rightside

6 posts....goodbye!

6-8 total posts seems to be the point when these nutters decide to jump off the cliff.

120 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:03am

re: #103 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Didn't care for that episode, a little too weird, even by ATHF standards.

Come on, man! It was perfect.

Shake, doing a lounge act in the delusional "theater of the mind" for "Phil" from "Kill Yourself" and his lovely wife, "Wear a Hat made from Tin Foil" and their lovely child, "Smear yourself with garbage and try to cross the freeway."

It's what freed the fish, man.

121 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:05am

re: #110 DaddyG

I usually enjoy playing with trolls, but this one seems to easy.

He's undersized - throw him back!

122 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:40am

re: #74 jaunte

My office has done them free for employees for the last 20 years. 20-40 people, no one has felt icky yet, and it helps cut down on sick time.

And how do you know for sure that as a result, you aren't autistic, and this isn't all just a very complex autistic dream you're having, like that little kid in the last St. Elsewhere episode?

123 capitalist piglet  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:47am

re: #63 rike101

In fact, you enjoyed LGF so much, you posted six times since 2007!

Sheesh. Come up with a better line, will you guys?

124 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:48am

re: #105 turn

Thanks, wow 20 years of shots and not one icky. The MIL is in her 70's and complains about not feeling well after her shots. How do you know it cuts down on sick time? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just curious.

Well, without a control group it's really just speculation. Over that stretch we haven't had many employees out sick with the flu. Those that did get sick were the ones who didn't choose to get the shot.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:55am

re: #101 Russkilitlover

Gee, if we got started on the fence oh, say, 3 years ago, we might actually have a shot.

For all the good it would do. A fence might, conceivably, reduce illegal border crossings, but it won't stop flu from getting in.

126 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:02am
Member of U.S. delegation to Mexico has flu-like symptoms
Associated Press
Posted: 04/30/2009 12:05:05 PM MDT

WASHINGTON - White House says member of U.S. delegation to Mexico shows flu-like symptoms, testing ongoing.

Check back to elpasotimes.com soon for more details.

127 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:10am

re: #112 Occasional Reader

Now spank yourself!

HARDER!

Just want to make clear, are you advocating that he spank himself, that is, that he... never mind.

heh, heheh.

128 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:30am

re: #122 Occasional Reader

And how do you know for sure that as a result, you aren't autistic, and this isn't all just a very complex autistic dream you're having, like that little kid in the last St. Elsewhere episode?

I for one would feel much better if Howie Mandel only existed in the mid of an autistic child.

129 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:32am

re: #63 rike101

When are you gonna' pee on the coffee table?

130 turn  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:47am

re: #79 JohnnyReb

If you are over 50 or have a compromised immune system, you are taking a big gamble if you don't get the flu shot. If you are young and healthy, it is not a big deal.

Thanks johnny, I'm a bit over 50 and do suffer from allergies (which is a compromise to the immune system). After reading a few comments like your's I'll give getting a flu shots more consideration.

131 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:20:01am

re: #127 Guanxi88

Just want to make clear, are you advocating that he spank himself, that is, that he... never mind.

heh, heheh.

Whatever makes him happy.

But I'm confident that buzz is Master of His Domain.

132 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:20:09am

re: #106 buzzsawmonkey

Just sent in a report on myself.

Charles, please remove my #48, and accept my apologies.


Er- and my 82, I quoted him.

Buzzsaw we'd better get to working on some new song lyrics and redeem this thread.

133 califleftyb  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:20:14am

Charles,

Most of us vaguely understand how a virus works. The bastards sneak inside our cells using ingenious methods. Inside, they head where all our nuclear DNA is located since it can't reproduce by itself, and hijack the machinery inside our own cells. Our DNA gets new instructions from Mr. Virus; churning out more viruses. Our cell dies, the cell wall dissolves, and more viruses go on to infect other cells. So it's nice to say something nice about viruses in the context of evolution. We have defenses against viruses that shut them down, usually anyway. The little bastards will insert in the genome, replicate a few hundred times, the copies reinserting back into the genome, and then the our antibodies comes to the rescue and shuts them down before they kill every cell in our body. Those little scraps of viral remnants remain in the genome, like a signpost saying "I was here". They are called Endogenous Retro-viruses or ERVs for short.

What's interesting is by chance, the cell partially infected with a virus will be a reproductive cell, that happens to go on to produce progeny. When that happens every descendant will have that same dead viral base pair sequence, like a genetic 'scar', in the same exact places that that one reproductive cell had. If you and I had the exact same viral fragments in r the same hundreds of places in our genome, that would be proof that you and I share a common ancestor. Well, it so happens humans and chimpanzees, have seven, of the exact same viral base pairs sequences, each roughly one-thousand or so pairs long, and each in several hundred respective locations in their respective genomes. We know how that can happen; chimps and humans shared a common ancestor. We can also estimate how long those viral fragments have been there because there are slight, random changes to the sequence over time. The molecular clock on the shared ERVs is 5-8 million years which just happens to be what the fossil evidence suggests for a split between the ancestors of chimps, and humans. What a flippin coincidence, huh?

In addition to ERVs, we also share broader genetic markers that have no function called LINEs and SINEs. We share them with chimps, we share them with mice. But when a human-chimp ERV just happens to lie in the same region as a LINE or SINE we share with a mouse, why the mouse elements are overwritten by the human-chimp ERV! And that's exactly what you'd expect, if the ancestors of primates diverged from the ancestors of rodents before the chimps and humans split. And when you calculate those molecular clocks, why it works out to about 70-80 million years, which again just happens to line up with the fossil evidence for the primate-rodent split. Another coincidence! We can see how ERVs insert into genomes, we can see how those viral sequences get passed on to cells during mitosis. We can make it happen on command in a lab. And the argument that it's 'common design' is going to be a particularly hard sale, given that these particular sequences aren't even native to the human and chimp genome, or any plant or animal, on earth. They're only used by viruses.

'Show me the proof' huh? Well, there it is. ERVs aren't just evidence folks, they're more than a smoking gun; ERVs are a high quality video surveillance tape of common descent. Let's be clear about this; the critical fact here is how they got to be in the same place on both the chimp and human genome in hundreds of places. Since the point of insertion is controlled by chance and local chemistry, the odds of seven distinct ERVs each inserting in the same exact respective places in both genomes, each genome being several billion base pairs long, and each of the seven inserting hundreds of times, is significantly greater than the chance of winning the lottery 25 consecutive times in a row. Creationists really don't have an answer for it, because the only plausible answer is common ancestry of humans and chimpanzees.

134 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:20:39am
135 Kragar  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:21:02am

re: #115 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Any more puns in spore for this thread?

Only if they fit the mold

136 debutaunt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:21:26am

re: #83 Catttt

Right - many years ago. You enjoyed reading so much, you didn't register for years and years and never made comments. Who are you?

An ex-faux-lizard.

137 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:22:11am

Comments whining and complaining about posts related to evolution will be deleted.

Continuing to whine and complain after that will cause accounts to be blocked.

(And I wish people would try to remember not to quote posts that look like they're going to be deleted, but I guess it's not to be.)

138 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:22:14am

re: #131 Occasional Reader

Whatever makes him happy.

But I'm confident that buzz is Master of His Domain.

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays?

139 Macker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:22:25am

re: #34 Nevergiveup

DIE YOU MOTHERFUCKER DIE!

140 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:23:10am

Word is a virus, man.

And language is a virus from outer space

141 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:23:27am

re: #116 Honorary Yooper

Deleted, not banned.

/yet

142 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:23:32am

re: #133 califleftyb

Is there going to be a test?

(I think that was a good post. I may lack qualification to judge, however.)

143 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:23:53am

Related - anyone else feel really weirded out about people seriously discussing on news shows the Mayan calendar in relation to news stories? I mean, as if the Mayan calendar is the Encyclopedia Britannica or something?

144 freedombilly  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:24:04am

re: #137 Charles

Sorry about my #117. Meant to hit reply and not quote. Please delete it. Won't happen again.

145 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:24:26am

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Only if they fit the mold

We only want cultured puns.

146 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:24:28am

re: #133 califleftyb So in short I've descended from a snot nose monkey. I can live with that.

147 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:24:45am

The only people who ever complain about posts on evolution, by the way, are creationists.

I'm not going to delete all those comments quoting our latest sleeper, because there are too many of them.

148 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:24:52am

re: #137 Charles

Comments whining and complaining about posts related to evolution will be deleted.

Continuing to whine and complain after that will cause accounts to be blocked.

(And I wish people would try to remember not to quote posts that look like they're going to be deleted, but I guess it's not to be.)

Sorry.

149 subsailor68  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:03am

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist

For all the good it would do. A fence might, conceivably, reduce illegal border crossings, but it won't stop flu from getting in.

I do believe that this gentleman would agree with ya:

Edgar Allan Poe

;-)

150 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:27am

re: #143 Catttt

Related - anyone else feel really weirded out about people seriously discussing on news shows the Mayan calendar in relation to news stories? I mean, as if the Mayan calendar is the Encyclopedia Britannica or something?

At the end of History, through which we have been living lo, these many years, we Last Men turn even the calendar into a source of guidance, amusement, and even spiritual insight. It is our curse to live in mad times; this is just one more folly.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:27am

re: #143 Catttt

Related - anyone else feel really weirded out about people seriously discussing on news shows the Mayan calendar in relation to news stories? I mean, as if the Mayan calendar is the Encyclopedia Britannica or something?

The 2012 thing again?

(Isn't the Mayan calendar in the Encyclopedia Brittanica?)

152 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:46am

re: #139 Macker

DIE YOU MOTHERFUCKER DIE!

Tatoo the pictures of those kids to the insides of his eyelids first.

153 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:52am

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Only if they fit the mold


The ultimate conversion of todays topics would be a moldy breaded pork sandwich pun.

154 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:26:07am

re: #147 Charles

I'm not going to delete all those comments quoting our latest sleeper, because there are too many of them.

If it's any defense, I quoted selectively?

155 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:26:16am

re: #137 Charles

That's why you made the "reply" button, is it not?

156 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:26:58am

"Swine Flu Is Evolution in Action"

Oh really, Charles? Well then, how come nobody has ever found a transitional species between a swine and an influenza virus? And don't tell me it's the rhinovirus 'cause I happen to know a rhinoceros is not the same thing as a pig. So there.

/

157 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:27:01am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

The 2012 thing again?

(Isn't the Mayan calendar in the Encyclopedia Brittanica?)

I've got a Mayan calendar up on my wall. It shows scantily clad Mayan girls, posing with power tools. Well, bronze tools, anyway.

158 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:27:07am

re: #147 Charles

The only people who ever complain about posts on evolution, by the way, are creationists.

I'm not going to delete all those comments quoting our latest sleeper, because there are too many of them.

Clean up on asile 32, 45, 68, 85...
...nuts... Quarantine on thread number 3!

159 turn  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:27:25am

re: #124 jaunte

Well, without a control group it's really just speculation. Over that stretch we haven't had many employees out sick with the flu. Those that did get sick were the ones who didn't choose to get the shot.

Maybe I've just been lucky, I haven't had the flu in ages. Probably 15 years if you can believe that. btw the painting you did for the cookbook was outstanding, turnwife loves that cook book.

160 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:27:29am

re: #156 Kenneth

"Swine Flu Is Evolution in Action"

Oh really, Charles? Well then, how come nobody has ever found a transitional species between a swine and an influenza virus? And don't tell me it's the rhinovirus 'cause I happen to know a rhinoceros is not the same thing as a pig. So there.

/

And there's no fossil record of any virus.
/

161 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:27:57am

re: #158 DaddyG

Clean up on asile 32, 45, 68, 85...
...nuts... Quarantine on thread number 3!

I guess this thread now has the Rike101 Flu.

162 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:28:49am

re: #145 Kosh's Shadow

We only want cultured puns.

LGF is a Level IV Petri dish for puns, except it's more fun.

163 Shug  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:29:11am

If Influenza didn't evolve, you would get the same vaccine every year.

of you would get one series of vaccines and be done.

but it evolves.
Sometimes in such a way that the vaccine from the year before us ineffective.

but it evolves.

(Unlike the ideas of Ben Stein)

164 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:29:19am

re: #138 MandyManners

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays?

Get used to it! The Kid is coming up fast on his days of "self-discovery"... won't that be a fun parenting moment?

165 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:29:43am

re: #147 Charles

The only people who ever complain about posts on evolution, by the way, are creationists.

I'm not going to delete all those comments quoting our latest sleeper, because there are too many of them.

I guess that's because this blog has evolved since its creation.

166 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:29:54am

re: #161 Honorary Yooper

I guess this thread now has the Rike101 Flu.

Maybe we should just call it Troll Flu, more generic that way.

167 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:29:54am

My ancestors were not viruses!

168 Spiritualized  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:30:15am
"Scientists say it could take six months to develop a vaccine for the new swine flu, and by then, nobody knows what it will have evolved into.

Manbearpig?

169 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:30:22am
170 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:30:44am

re: #167 Ben Hur

My ancestors were not viruses!

No, they were probably prions.

171 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:30:54am

re: #166 Ford_Prefect

Maybe we should just call it Troll Flu, more generic that way.

That's a damned fine name for this, or any other, strain of influenza. It'd be a good name for a punk band, too.

172 debutaunt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:30:58am

re: #163 Shug

If Influenza didn't evolve, you would get the same vaccine every year.

of you would get one series of vaccines and be done.

but it evolves.
Sometimes in such a way that the vaccine from the year before us ineffective.

but it evolves.

(Unlike the ideas of Ben Stein)

Nice scattershot from your evolver.

173 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:31:09am

re: #170 Honorary Yooper

No, they were probably prions.

What's that, a new hybrid car?

174 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:31:26am
175 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:31:54am

re: #139 Macker

DIE YOU MOTHERFUCKER DIE!

Ya know #34 was a while ago, I kinda forgot which one it was. Thought I did something wrong? I guess it's that guilt complex my wife has given me?

176 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:32:10am

re: #160 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

And there's no fossil record of any virus.
/

Those teeny little bones are awfully difficult to find. /

177 turn  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:32:18am

re: #133 califleftyb

wow, you have to post more often. What a concise and easy to understand explanation of a very complex process. ding

178 Shug  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:32:26am

Question for the New Earthers:

Did Noah take a copy of influenza on the ark?

179 Right mind left  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:32:41am

re: #156 Kenneth

"Swine Flu Is Evolution in Action"

Oh really, Charles? Well then, how come nobody has ever found a transitional species between a swine and an influenza virus? And don't tell me it's the rhinovirus 'cause I happen to know a rhinoceros is not the same thing as a pig. So there.

/

I think it has something to do with avian flu because they are airborne transmitted...not that chickens are great at flying or anything...

...And as for those rinos, haven't they defected recently?

Is this thread evolving now?

What about now?re: #167 Ben Hur

My ancestors were not viruses! avian

!

180 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:32:51am
181 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:33:06am

re: #178 Shug

Question for the New Earthers:

Did Noah take a copy of influenza on the ark?

two copies

182 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #174 Iron Fist

The plants give of "special" pollen that makes you want to kill yourself for the defense of Gaia?

I like the ones from that Star Trek (TOS) episode better, the ones that make Vulcans just want to relax, have fun, and get laid.

183 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:33:24am
184 Cygnus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:33:38am

re: #173 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

What's that, a new hybrid car?

"My Mother the Car" explained.

185 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:33:56am
186 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:33:56am

re: #169 buzzsawmonkey

Remember Francis Fukuyama, and his "End of History" blather after the Soviet Union imploded? How, since we had won the Cold War, the world was going to become a paradise of liberal democracies and smell of roses forevermore?

Don't hear much about Fukuyama, or his Fuked-up yammering, these days, but it seems that some people are still looking for the End of History--as apocalypse, this time. And since tired old Western religion, and its apocalyptic visions, is something that our TV sophisticates wouldn't be caught dead in, they find it in the Natural, Indigenous, Close-to-the-Land Mayan calendar.

Fukuyama misunderstood the idea. He was an orthodox, albeit Rightist, Hegelian. Hegel gave a name to the idea; Nietzsche adapted and thought it ought more clearly, and then Spengler brought it down to earth.

History, understood as the progressive development and growth of Western culture and its universal mission of the techno-scientific conquest of nature for the relief of the human estate, has more or less come to an end, as we have attained most of the original goals of Bacon's project in the sciences, and Machiavelli's and Hobbes' projects in human affairs. History is, in the sense, over. It doesn't mean the end of the world, the end of politics, or any real change in day-to-day life.

187 Shug  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:34:02am

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey

The Evian flu is spread by bottled-water drinkers.

it's a Benzene based viron

188 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:34:18am

re: #147 Charles

The only people who ever complain about posts on evolution, by the way, are creationists.

I'm not going to delete all those comments quoting our latest sleeper, because there are too many of them.


Charles: Found a great site on the Anti-vaxx crowd..Complete scientifc smackdown.
[Link: antiantivax.jottit.com...]

189 Russkilitlover  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:34:39am

re: #178 Shug

Question for the New Earthers:

Did Noah take a copy of influenza on the ark?

Duh! Influenza is not an organism, it's a punishment from God.
///// Sheesh!

190 sarah  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:34:46am

First of all, Swine Flu is NOTHING to panic over. Sheesh.

Second of all a little OT that worries me more greatly.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/04/30/20090430dubai0430.html

After a two-year courtship, Phoenix and the Persian Gulf port of Dubai made their relationship official Wednesday in a ceremony packed with smiles and handshakes, gift exchanges and goodwill.
191 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:34:54am

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey

The Evian flu is spread by bottled-water drinkers.

My Deer, Park your bottled water puns somewhere else.

192 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:01am

re: #164 Kenneth

Get used to it! The Kid is coming up fast on his days of "self-discovery"... won't that be a fun parenting moment?

Oh, joy.

193 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:08am

re: #143 Catttt

Related - anyone else feel really weirded out about people seriously discussing on news shows the Mayan calendar in relation to news stories? I mean, as if the Mayan calendar is the Encyclopedia Britannica or something?

I laugh about it. I presume the long count calendar having an end is akin to those perpetual calendars we used to get from the bank that would calulate the date for the next 12 years or so. Just another date for those predicting the end of the world to panic about or in extreme cases buy white tennis shoes, purple capes and sleeping pills.

194 JohnnyReb  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:12am

OT Question. When people say the US is involved in two wars, shouldn't they be saying a "two front" war vice two wars. I mean there is technically only one global war on terror or whatever it is being called this week.

195 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:13am

re: #174 Iron Fist

Isn't that pretty much the Green Menace M. Night Shayalam's latest eco-horror flick in a nutshell? The plants give of "special" pollen that makes you want to kill yourself for the defense of Gaia?

There is nothing so nuts that you can think of that some Leftist hasn't already been there beforehand.


I wish the people who think Earth would be better off without people would start with themselves instead of everyone else.
Then the rest of us would be spared their preaching.

And that goes for the "Earth After People" "History" channel show, too.

196 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:33am

re: #182 Occasional Reader

I like the ones from that Star Trek (TOS) episode better, the ones that make Vulcans just want to relax, have fun, and get laid.

I must have missed that episode... did they visit Jamaica and try the ganja or something?

197 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:53am

re: #169 buzzsawmonkey

Remember Francis Fukuyama, and his "End of History" blather after the Soviet Union imploded? How, since we had won the Cold War, the world was going to become a paradise of liberal democracies and smell of roses forevermore?

Don't hear much about Fukuyama, or his Fuked-up yammering, these days, but it seems that some people are still looking for the End of History--as apocalypse, this time. And since tired old Western religion, and its apocalyptic visions, is something that our TV sophisticates wouldn't be caught dead in, they find it in the Natural, Indigenous, Close-to-the-Land Mayan calendar.


It could be because he dead.

198 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:36:00am
199 Russkilitlover  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:36:15am

re: #192 MandyManners

Oh, joy.

How are things going with his school, mama bear?

200 Right mind left  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:36:41am

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey

The Evian flu is spread by bottled-water drinkers.


Thanks for that discovery - you must be Perrier-Mason!

201 rightside  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:36:48am

re: #194 JohnnyReb

I wondered that too.

202 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:36:51am
203 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:36:53am

re: #195 Kosh's Shadow

I wish the people who think Earth would be better off without people would start with themselves instead of everyone else.
Then the rest of us would be spared their preaching.

And that goes for the "Earth After People" "History" channel show, too.

By that show's account, after Man dies off, the Earth will reclaim everything in 1000 years. So what's the big deal?

204 califleftyb  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:36:57am

One final note (for those who care) You could spend your entire scientific career studying human-chimp ERVs. And those ERVs are just one small piece of the genetic evidence for common descent between only two species, out of millions. And the genetic evidence in turn makes up only one small portion of the over all evidence for common descent. All of those lines of evidence converge on the same solution; we humans share ancestors with other creatures on earth, some more recently than others. This common ancestry interlocks consistently across all the lines of evidence; genetic, fossil, and comparative homology. And that kind of convergence is itself pretty damn powerful evidence.

Now put on your damn face mask and don't sneeze in my direction!

205 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:37:00am
206 Eowyn2  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:37:07am

re: #126 wrenchwench

I have flu like symptoms.

Is it lizard flu?
I will have no swine before my time.

207 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:37:27am
208 Russkilitlover  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:37:30am

re: #194 JohnnyReb

OT Question. When people say the US is involved in two wars, shouldn't they be saying a "two front" war vice two wars. I mean there is technically only one global war on terror or whatever it is being called this week.

No. You completely misunderstand. There is Bush's war (Iraq, BAD) and Obama's war (Afghanistan GOOD). See 2 wars.

209 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:10am

re: #197 Ben Hur

It could be because he dead.

No, he's still alive according to Wikipedia.

210 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:10am

re: #207 Iron Fist

I was never a big Trek fan, nor even Next Generation. I liked Deep Space: Nine. Fuck the new age hippy shit. Bring on the power politics, malevolent non-humans, shapeshifters, and full scale war or three (or was it four?).

Why I love Star Wars & not Trek.

211 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:14am

re: #178 Shug

Question for the New Earthers:

Did Noah take a copy of influenza on the ark?

The pigs did.

212 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:16am

re: #186 Guanxi88

The End of Fukuyama
Why his latest pronouncements miss the mark.
By Christopher Hitchens, 2006

I have a feeling that last week was a disappointing one for Francis Fukuyama, whose essay "After Neoconservatism" (adapted from his upcoming book America at the Crossroads) was awarded seven pages in the Feb. 19 New York Times Magazine. The anti-Danish mayhem that had been dominating the news was surpassed by the fantastic criminality and sacrilege in Samarra, and nobody seemed to have time for the best-advertised defection from the neocon ranks. This, I think, is a pity, since the essay exhibits several points of interest.

However, it must also be said that Fukuyama himself made it hard for people to concentrate on his words. There appears to be an arsenal of clichés and stock expressions located somewhere inside his word processor, so that he has only to touch the keyboard for one of them to spring abruptly onto the page.

Classic Hitch.

213 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:26am

re: #205 Ben Hur

Achille Lauro Murderer Released in Italy

He goes on the list

214 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:46am

re: #196 Kenneth

I must have missed that episode... did they visit Jamaica and try the ganja or something?

"This Side of Paradise"

215 debutaunt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:46am

re: #200 Right mind left

Thanks for that discovery - you must be Perrier-Mason!

hahahahahhahahahahhaaa

216 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:53am
217 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:39:07am

re: #174 Iron Fist

I find a lot of these leftist end-of-the-world things to be not too dissimilar from the religious zealot who holds a sign on the street corner stating "REPENT! THE END IS NEAR!". Instead of God, it's Gaia.

218 rightside  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:39:15am

re: #208 Russkilitlover

Which drive by will be the first to ask the one, "How come you haven't found Bin Laden yet?"

219 SixDegrees  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Yup, They're limiting movement to establish control of the population and round up everybody into FEMA camps for forced vaccinations.

I'm waiting for that stupid bitch Pat Robertson to weigh in and claim that this is God's punishment for electing a Democrat.

220 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:40:00am

re: #205 Ben Hur

Achille Lauro Murderer Released in Italy

Italian officials announced Molqui's release on Thursday. He is currently staying in a holding center, where he is fighting an expulsion order. He has married an Italian citizen, and claims that his marriage should grant him citizenship as well. In addition, Molqui argues that he has no citizenship. As a descendant of Arabs who fled pre-state Israel, Molqui is not eligible for citizenship in Israel, nor is he eligible for citizenship in his state of birth.

I feel like puking.

221 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:40:04am

re: #192 MandyManners
You will know when he volunteers to do his own laundry.

Speaking of which how did it go with the school?

222 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:40:07am

re: #197 Ben Hur

It could be because he dead.

Notice of his death would come as a great surprise to him & his students.

223 Right mind left  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:40:10am

re: #208 Russkilitlover

No. You completely misunderstand. There is Bush's war (Iraq, BAD) and Obama's war (Afghanistan GOOD). See 2 wars.

Isn't it all part of the contingency "operation" where someone in the war room keeps picking the battalion pieces off the map and the buzzer goes off every time...?

/

224 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:40:18am

re: #210 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Why I love Star Wars & not Trek.

Right, because the later Star Wars movies didn't suck at all.

////

225 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:40:39am

United States Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday that the military option for forcing Iran to halt its nuclear program would be just temporary and ineffective and that sanctions made more sense.


[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Yeah Fine Great Wonderful. What are we sanctioning this week, Cheeseburgers?

226 turn  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:06am

re: #208 Russkilitlover

No. You completely misunderstand. There is Bush's war (Iraq, BAD) and Obama's war (Afghanistan GOOD). See 2 wars.

Bush's war, the one O ended. spit

227 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:13am

re: #224 Occasional Reader

Right, because the later Star Wars movies didn't suck at all.

////

I said I love Star Wars. I can't help it if George Lucas doesn't.

228 Lincolntf  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:22am

re: #195 Kosh's Shadow

"And that goes for the "Earth After People" "History" channel show, too."

Seriously, that show treats every further sign of collapse as great progress. Things that stick around for a long time are hideous remnants of a much darker past for our planet. It was initially a kind of interesting show (like a decent high school Science Class movie) , but the way they do their narration is just lame. It's not even propaganda, it's just dumb.

229 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #209 doppelganglander

No, he's still alive according to Wikipedia.

Strange.

Why on earth did I think he was dead?

MIRACLE!

230 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #191 Occasional Reader

My Deer, Park your bottled water puns somewhere else.

Saratoga perhaps? Or maybe Fiji is more to your liking?

231 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:46am

re: #210 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Why I love Star Wars & not Trek.

Three words:

Jar Jar Binks.

232 Eowyn2  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:48am

re: #205 Ben Hur

Achille Lauro Murderer Released in Italy

swine everywhere

233 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:41:59am

re: #212 Kenneth

The End of Fukuyama
Why his latest pronouncements miss the mark.
By Christopher Hitchens, 2006

Classic Hitch.

Fukuyama was one of man instances of the dispute known, more broadly, a the legacy of the Strauss Divided. I was party to it for many a year, and the factionalism and disagreements among his students and students of his students are mind-blowing. Most frustrating of all, they're none of them provably wrong, because of Straussian esotericism.

Good times.

234 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:42:26am

re: #229 Ben Hur

Strange.

Why on earth did I think he was dead?


Because he never calls, he never writes...

235 Eowyn2  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:42:40am

re: #210 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Why I love Star Wars & not Trek.

space balls

236 Russkilitlover  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #231 Honorary Yooper

Three words:

Jar Jar Binks.

Might not want to go there, the other side can always toss out.....Wessssssley.

237 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:43:13am

re: #229 Ben Hur

Strange.

Why on earth did I think he was dead?

MIRACLE!

Not dead, refuted and thus dialectically eliminated.

238 Shug  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:43:14am

You just can't make this stuff up.

PETA criticizes Octomom for wanting to buy a pet pig

239 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:43:22am

re: #228 Lincolntf

It's not even propaganda, it's just dumb.

That's why it's called "entertainment" and not education.

240 Kragar  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:43:36am

re: #194 JohnnyReb

OT Question. When people say the US is involved in two wars, shouldn't they be saying a "two front" war vice two wars. I mean there is technically only one global war on terror or whatever it is being called this week.

Global war on man made disasters (like the stimulus bill and the budget)

241 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:43:40am

re: #221 DaddyG

You will know when he volunteers to do his own laundry.

Speaking of which how did it go with the school?

The meeting is soon.

242 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:43:58am

re: #238 Shug

You just can't make this stuff up.

PETA criticizes Octomom for wanting to buy a pet pig

I have no comment for that.

243 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:44:03am

re: #231 Honorary Yooper

Three words:

Jar Jar Binks.

At least he looked like a creature from another planet (a planet designed by 4 year olds), as opposed to Trek aliens, who are just humans with odd noses/brows.

244 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:44:03am

re: #203 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

By that show's account, after Man dies off, the Earth will reclaim everything in 1000 years. So what's the big deal?

Because I think there is something greater than us that we're supposed to live for. The idea that we'd be gone, not evolved into something greater, but just died off, is depressing. Why continue if that's all there is? Isn't there some value to our existence, our culture, our science?
If we die off like that, it means we failed.

And that's also why I disliked the end of Battlestar Galactica, and now "from the makers of BSG" means "don't waste your time" to me.

245 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:44:09am

re: #220 MandyManners

I feel like puking.

As a descendant of Arabs who fled pre-state Israel, Molqui is not eligible for citizenship in Israel, nor is he eligible for citizenship in his state of birth.

That is NOT entirely accurate.

They gave SHI'A Arabs that fled pre-state Israel citizenship.

They put the Sunni Arabs that fled pre-state Israel in refugee camps.

246 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:44:50am

re: #236 Russkilitlover

the other side can always toss out.....Wessssssley./blockquote>

Out of an airlock, preferably.

247 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:45:11am

re: #227 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I said I love Star Wars. I can't help it if George Lucas doesn't.

It is, indeed, sort of as if Carol Reed had insisted on making The Third Man II: The Fourth Man, and worked it up as a slapstick comedy with a big song & dance number at the end.

248 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:45:12am

Last update - 20:31 30/04/2009

Saudi Arabia: U.S. lied, Saudi king did not speak with Peres

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

The official source demanded that the State Department retract the news and offer an explanation and clarification of the reasons behind this falsehood that does not serve relations between the two friendly countries."


Yeah Fine Wonderful. And the Saudi "Peace Plan" they must really mean peace ha?

249 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:45:12am

re: #171 Guanxi88

That's a damned fine name for this, or any other, strain of influenza. It'd be a good name for a punk band, too.

I just got an email from T.O.G.A. (Trolls, Ogres, Ghouls and AlGore) demanding that I rescind my support for the term Troll Flu as it is insulting to trolls and other mythical figures.

250 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:45:13am

re: #228 Lincolntf

"And that goes for the "Earth After People" "History" channel show, too."

Seriously, that show treats every further sign of collapse as great progress. Things that stick around for a long time are hideous remnants of a much darker past for our planet. It was initially a kind of interesting show (like a decent high school Science Class movie) , but the way they do their narration is just lame. It's not even propaganda, it's just dumb.

I hate that show. First of all, it's utterly pointless; if we're not going to be here, why should we care what happens? Second, you're right -- they do treat the absence of man as a net plus for the planet. No thanks.

251 ckb  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:45:30am

One of the cool things about viral evolution is that the process actually de-selects versions of the virus that are particularly deadly. Say the virus mutates to a form that kills the host in a matter of hours. This doesn't give the virus much time to spread itself, and will be quickly selected out (after it kills a few hosts).

The virus that survives is the one that sickens the host slowly and gives the host time to spread it to other hosts.

A completely dumb process with no smarts behind it, but extraordinarily effective nonetheless.

252 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:46:08am

re: #238 Shug

You just can't make this stuff up.

PETA criticizes Octomom for wanting to buy a pet pig

Maybe she has a good reason. How many teats do pigs have anyway?

253 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:46:28am

re: #249 Ford_Prefect

I just got an email from T.O.G.A. (Trolls, Ogres, Ghouls and AlGore) demanding that I rescind my support for the term Troll Flu as it is insulting to trolls and other mythical figures.

"Troll Flu" is also insulting to people from Michigan's Lower Peninsula.

254 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:46:29am

re: #250 doppelganglander

I hate that show. First of all, it's utterly pointless; if we're not going to be here, why should we care what happens? Second, you're right -- they do treat the absence of man as a net plus for the planet. No thanks.

Attention History Channel: Drop this show & bring back Dogfights!

255 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:46:34am

re: #249 Ford_Prefect

I just got an email from T.O.G.A. (Trolls, Ogres, Ghouls and AlGore) demanding that I rescind my support for the term Troll Flu as it is insulting to trolls and other mythical figures.

It's Hiney Flu (H1N1).

256 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:46:37am

re: #251 ckb


A completely dumb process with no smarts behind it, but extraordinarily effective nonetheless.

Which is a perfect description of reproduction, the democratic republic, and barbecue.

257 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:46:51am

re: #243 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

At least he looked like a creature from another planet (a planet designed by 4 year olds), as opposed to Trek aliens, who are just humans with odd noses/brows.

I believe Jar Jar was designed by a 4-year-old (or slightly older) child, George Lucas's young son.

258 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:01am

re: #253 Honorary Yooper

"Troll Flu" is also insulting to people from Michigan's Lower Peninsula.

Say "Ja" to da UP, eh?

259 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:01am

re: #252 Kenneth

Maybe she has a good reason. How many teats do pigs have anyway?

Hope her kids aren't kosher?

260 rightside  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:06am

re: #254 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

They have a show starring michael vick?

261 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:17am

re: #251 ckb

A completely dumb process with no smarts behind it, but extraordinarily effective nonetheless.

Is this an example of "Dumb Design" perhaps?

262 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:24am

re: #245 Ben Hur

re: #220 MandyManners

I feel like puking.

As a descendant of Arabs who fled pre-state Israel, Molqui is not eligible for citizenship in Israel, nor is he eligible for citizenship in his state of birth.

That is NOT entirely accurate.

They gave SHI'A Arabs that fled pre-state Israel citizenship.

They put the Sunni Arabs that fled pre-state Israel in refugee camps.

Interesting... I just got this note from a jackass on a "christian justice" site.

Israel is the only country on earth that gives citizenship based on race and not on geography. It does not matter if you were born and raised in Israel. What matters is that you are Jewish.

What are the facts here?

263 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:28am

re: #238 Shug

You just can't make this stuff up.

PETA criticizes Octomom for wanting to buy a pet pig

I'm with PETA here.

264 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:40am

re: #256 Guanxi88

Which is a perfect description of reproduction, the democratic republic, and barbecue.

You're not invited to my next barbecue.

/sniff

265 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:48am

re: #225 Nevergiveup


Yes yes.

We've heard it all before.

Bombing Aushwitz will only take valuable war assets away from the over all war effort........Those assets would be better served bringing the war to a speedy end.

266 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #260 rightside

They have a show starring michael vick?

"The Adventures of Ron Mexico"

267 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:12am

re: #245 Ben Hur

That is NOT entirely accurate.

They gave SHI'A Arabs that fled pre-state Israel citizenship.

They put the Sunni Arabs that fled pre-state Israel in refugee camps.

Which is the killer?

268 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:12am
269 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:26am

re: #244 Kosh's Shadow

I kinda liked the show's ending--save for the way they wrapped up the Starbuck character.

270 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:26am

re: #251 ckb
Some day...."they" will be studing your brain .....and scratch their
heads and wonder..........?
LOL

271 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:29am

re: #254 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Attention History Channel: Drop this show & bring back Dogfights!

They can take "Paranormal Investigations" and "Psychic Kids" with them, too.

272 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:43am

re: #254 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Attention History Channel: Drop this show & bring back Dogfights!

You want Michael Vick producing shows for the History Channel?

273 rightside  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:48am

re: #266 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

NFL shop stopped all orders with that name on a falcons jersey LOL

274 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:52am
275 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:48:57am

re: #260 rightside

They have a show starring michael vick?

D'OH

276 Desert Dog  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:49:00am

re: #260 rightside

They have a show starring michael vick?

The Lady and the Tramp II - This Time It's Personal - cage match

277 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:49:01am

re: #127 Guanxi88

Just want to make clear, are you advocating that he spank himself, that is, that he... never mind.

heh, heheh.

Don't worry, it's probably not going to go beyond an 8th grade level...
/ONN

278 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:49:06am

re: #252 Kenneth

Maybe she has a good reason. How many teats do pigs have anyway?

Boob thread in 252 posts!

279 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:49:09am

re: #238 Shug

You just can't make this stuff up.

PETA criticizes Octomom for wanting to buy a pet pig

How is that possible? Her pa is Pali, no? Must be Christian Pali.

280 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:49:41am

re: #273 rightside

NFL shop stopped all orders with that name on a falcons jersey LOL

You can play as "Ron Mexico" on some Playstation football game, IIRC.

281 Ben Hur  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:49:46am

re: #267 MandyManners

Which is the killer?


Probably Sunni.

282 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:49:56am

re: #279 Ben Hur

How is that possible? Her pa is Pali, no? Must be Christian Pali.

I thought Iraqi?

283 quickjustice  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:01am

Was it Circe who turned men into swine? Having been on the NYC dating scene, I'd say that that magic trick is repeated here daily!

284 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:07am
285 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:12am

re: #248 Nevergiveup

Last update - 20:31 30/04/2009

Saudi Arabia: U.S. lied, Saudi king did not speak with Peres

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

The official source demanded that the State Department retract the news and offer an explanation and clarification of the reasons behind this falsehood that does not serve relations between the two friendly countries."

Yeah Fine Wonderful. And the Saudi "Peace Plan" they must really mean peace ha?

The Saudi "peace plan" is a plan for the "peaceful" destruction of Israel by flooding it with "refugees".
Note that under the plan, Israel and the Palestinian state would have to take back refugees whose homes had been in each area, but the Arab countries would not take back any of them. The plan specifically says "Palestinian repatriation must take into account the special circumstances of the Arab countries", code for "we don't want them; they go to Israel".

286 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:17am

re: #260 rightside

They have a show starring michael vick?

putz/

No, He's the new co-host with Victoria Stilwell on Animal Planet's "It's Me or the Dog">

287 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:23am

re: #256 Guanxi88

Which is a perfect description of reproduction, the democratic republic, and barbecue.

You don't like *ahem* procreating?

288 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:31am

re: #271 doppelganglander

They can take "Paranormal Investigations" and "Psychic Kids" with them, too.

Most agreed. That's not history, it's not even science. It's bullshit. Now, that "How the Earth Was Made" show is pretty good.

289 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:39am

re: #271 doppelganglander

They can take "Paranormal Investigations" and "Psychic Kids" with them, too.

And all their shows on UFOs.

290 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:42am
291 J.S.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:48am

re: #220 MandyManners

(slightly off topic) -- did you hear that the results of a new study (published in the journal Pediatrics, May edition) about the use of medication in the treatment of ADHD kids and test scores? (apparently, there is a rise in test scores for children who take a certain medication)...(this apparently was a long-term study).link.

292 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:50am

Breaks over - time to stand on my head. BBL

293 Nevergiveup  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:50:51am

re: #283 quickjustice

Was it Circe who turned men into swine? Having been on the NYC dating scene, I'd say that that magic trick is repeated here daily!

I'm a guy and so by definition not so swift, but that was shot at men wasn't it?

294 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:51:11am

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

Basically, Jar Jar Binks came across as Stepin Fetchit playing a Rastafarian diplodocus.

Holy shit.

That's perfect.

295 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:51:20am

re: #278 DaddyG

Boob thread in 252 posts!

You asked for it...

296 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:51:49am

re: #293 Nevergiveup

I'm a guy and so by definition not so swift, but that was shot at men wasn't it?

All men are pigs.

This is one of the reasons jihadists are so pissed.

297 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:51:50am

re: #287 MandyManners

You don't like *ahem* procreating?

On the contrary, I enjoy all three of the cited examples of something that's utterly stupid and yet tremendously effective.

298 quickjustice  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:51:53am

re: #293 Nevergiveup

Not necessarily. The behavior of some chicks turns some men into swine as well!

299 Macker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:52:24am

re: #190 sarah

Waddya Expect! This town (Phoenix) is run by a Demo☭rat.

300 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:52:54am

re: #291 J.S.

(slightly off topic) -- did you hear that the results of a new study (published in the journal Pediatrics, May edition) about the use of medication in the treatment of ADHD kids and test scores? (apparently, there is a rise in test scores for children who take a certain medication)...(this apparently was a long-term study).link.

I'd not seen the news but, I can testify that it's true.

301 Kenneth  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:53:02am

re: #283 quickjustice

One of the Hadith tells how Allah turned a tribe of Jews into swine. So charming.

302 Russkilitlover  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:53:10am

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

Basically, Jar Jar Binks came across as Stepin Fetchit playing a Rastafarian diplodocus.

I hate to say it but by Return of the King, I was getting pretty fed up with the whole Gollum thing and all his soliloquies. Film makers can get too enchanted with their pet creations and give them way too much screen time.

303 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:53:36am

bbiab

304 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:53:40am

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

Basically, Jar Jar Binks came across as Stepin Fetchit playing a Rastafarian diplodocus.

Awesome.

305 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:54:42am

re: #283 quickjustice

Was it Circe who turned men into swine? Having been on the NYC dating scene, I'd say that that magic trick is repeated here daily!

And other critters iirc... waste of talent being all spiteful and stuff when she could have turned them into accountants or farmers or something... on the other hand when a ship full of hormone charged killers lands on your island what's there to do with them? Kill them or charm them... option 1 not so much, option 2 works a bit better and and beats getting either chopped to bits or carried off as plunder... pesky ancient Greeks...

306 alegrias  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:55:37am

re: #282 Nevergiveup

I thought Iraqi?

* * * *
Octomom's father was Pali, working in Iraq as a translator, presumably FOR the USA which gives the welfare family all it needs, from what I recall reading somewhere.

307 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:56:31am

re: #263 MandyManners

I'm with PETA here.

Pigs are food, not pets.

308 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:58:40am
Today and every day, we have an opportunity as well as an obligation to confront these scourges, to fight the impulse to turn the channel when we see images that disturb us or wrap ourselves in the false comfort that others’ sufferings are not our own. Instead, we have the opportunity to make a habit of empathy, to recognize ourselves in each other, to commit ourselves to resisting injustice and intolerance and indifference, in whatever forms they may take, whether confronting those who tell lies about history, or doing everything we can to prevent and end atrocities like those that took place in Rwanda, those taking place in Darfur.

That is my commitment as president. I hope that is yours as well.

It will not be easy. At times, fulfilling these obligations require self-reflection.

From President Obama's Holocaust Memorial Speech 2009

This breathtaking soaring oratory is not just cause for concern, it should send shivvers down the spine of Kurds, Chechans, Darfurians, Hutus, Israelis, and the other small peoples of the world.

I have great news for you small nations. If you are under threat of annihilation, your would be more numerous killers should pause and know that Obama is going to resist them. This is so comforting. The Iranian Revolutionary Guards had to just pee laughing when they read this.

President Obama, believe it or not, using the same time you took to write your lovely speech, you could have DONE something about Darfur. One paragraph and the willingness to back it up would have done the job:

Today I will act against the serial acts of genocide of the govenrment of Sudan. Your embassy's in any country that wishes to have relations withe the US are to be closed in 48 hours. I have dispatched a large naval taks force to the region.

I ask the US Congress to authorize a series of escalations in force until the Government of Sudan agrees categorically to cease and desist from all support of Janjaweed and paramilitary groups acting against Darfur. These escalations in force will grow until Sudan turns over all wanted for crimes against Darfur and grants fill autonomy and promises complete non-interference in Darfur; they will agree to pay reparations and repatriate the victims of their crimes. If Sudan desires a peaceful resolution they will admit they have done wrong and rejoin the community of nations. If they resist, we will escalate.

The task force's first mission will be to close the skies over Darfur to all aircraft save passenger plane traffic and relief planes. Should Sudan resist in any way, we will impose a no-fly zone for all Sudanese aircraft in Sudan. Any use of force or ground or naval attacks against the task force or peacekeepers will result in the complete destruction of Sudan's ability to wage war. We will escalate our use of force against the Sudanese government until they stop killing or trying to kill anyone in Darfur.

This is Sudan's second genocide against its own people in 20 years. America will not sit silent. We have watched, we asked you to stop, we have given you aid so you have no reason for these acts against your own people.

We do not want war but the United States will not sit silent while a government annihilates its people for reasons of bigotry and naked aggression.

Then his words might mean something. And if he said those words the killing in Darfur would stop instantly.

309 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:58:43am

re: #283 quickjustice

Was it Circe who turned men into swine? !

This comes back to the question I asked the other day: about why Homer praises Eumaeus, the swineherd and only loyal friend of Odysseus, and why it is only to this swineheard that Homer speaks in the second person?

Is this some sort of insight and commentary on human nature after the end of the age of the gods; are men in a godless world swine, then, and is this why Odysseus needs Eumaeus to help him regain and exercise his kingship?

310 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:59:55am
311 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:04:09pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

The 2012 thing again?

(Isn't the Mayan calendar in the Encyclopedia Brittanica?)

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh! We're all gonna get sucked into a

312 debutaunt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:04:41pm

re: #276 Desert Dog

The Lady and the Tramp II - This Time It's Personal - cage match

How delightfully sick!

313 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:05:35pm

re: #174 Iron Fist

Isn't that pretty much the Green Menace M. Night Shayalam's latest eco-horror flick in a nutshell? The plants give of "special" pollen that makes you want to kill yourself for the defense of Gaia?

There is nothing so nuts that you can think of that some Leftist hasn't already been there beforehand.

Evil pollen also inundates my truck and makes everyone realize I don't wash it very often. The evil, yellow plant menace of doom!

314 Guanxi88  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:07:20pm

re: #313 Catttt

Evil pollen also inundates my truck and makes everyone realize I don't wash it very often. The evil, yellow plant menace of doom!

Makes me wheeze, hack, and cough for months at a time here in central Texas. If Barry had campaigned on a Western Cedar (juniper, to you non-Texans) eradication platform, he might have gotten my vote, too.

315 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:07:41pm
316 ConservatismNow!  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:25:08pm

re: #238 Shug

You just can't make this stuff up.

PETA criticizes Octomom for wanting to buy a pet pig

Not everything PETA does is fucking nuts. I actually agree with them here and with their reasons for doing so. Pigs are not dogs or cats. This woman DOES NOT need another mouth to feed.

317 jcbunga  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:27:19pm

I'm no expert, but isn't the proof is on any label of hand sanitizer?..."Kills 99.99% of germs".

The remaining 0.01% is a mean bunch of survivors, who go on and produce a more resistant version, and so on.

Survival of the fittest, pure and simple.

318 Hawaii69  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:50:00pm

re: #174 Iron Fist


There is nothing so nuts that you can think of that some Leftist hasn't already been there beforehand.


Yeah....nutty stuff like belief in evolution.

Keep rationalizing.

319 shane  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 12:59:36pm

All viruses evolve to a less lethal form.

320 Bagua  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:00:06pm

re: #156 Kenneth

"Swine Flu Is Evolution in Action"

Oh really, Charles? Well then, how come nobody has ever found a transitional species between a swine and an influenza virus? And don't tell me it's the rhinovirus 'cause I happen to know a rhinoceros is not the same thing as a pig. So there.

/

Brilliant.

321 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:00:25pm
322 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:03:24pm

Swine Flu? I thought we were supposed to call it Naturally Occuring Non-Disaster.

323 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:07:58pm
324 hazzyday  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:11:01pm

At work yesterday I was told by the Social Justice coordinator to not use the term "Swine Flu" Rather use the H2 uh.... H1... uh. She couldn't remember. I said H1N1? she said yes. So community organizers would prefer that you call this flu. The "Hinie Flu"?

Actually I have to go look this up now.

325 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:16:07pm

re: #324 hazzyday

At work yesterday I was told by the Social Justice coordinator to not use the term "Swine Flu" Rather use the H2 uh.... H1... uh. She couldn't remember. I said H1N1? she said yes. So community organizers would prefer that you call this flu. The "Hinie Flu"?

Actually I have to go look this up now.

Hiney Flu. I decided yesterday.

/

326 TheHeebrewHammer  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:18:23pm

About 36,000 people in the USA die from the regular flu. That's about 3,000 per month or 750 per day. How many people have died from the swine flu here in America to date? Maybe one?

Does anyone know why the Feds and other governments getting their panties in a wad over such a benign flu? Why aren't the Feds going ape-doo-doo over the regular flu? About 750 died yesterday from it and the day before that and the day before that.

How many people annually die from the regular flu on a global basis? According to the Communist News Network (CNN) they say the following.

"Common seasonal flu kills 250,000 to 500,000 people every year worldwide, far more than the current outbreak of swine flu."

With those numbers we might as well shut down all forms of transportation and force everyone to stay indoors until this annual pandemic subsides.

327 SixDegrees  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:23:58pm

re: #307 CyanSnowHawk

Pigs are food, not pets.

They can be both.

A traveling salesman happens on a farmhouse. The farmer is propped up in a rocking chair on the front porch, along with a three-legged pig curled up beside him on a blanket. The salesman, curious, asks why the pig is there, when there are obviously many other pigs living out in the barn.

"Well," the farmer replied, "one night, when we were all asleep, a fire started down in the kitchen. That pig was out in the barn, but he broke out, broke into the house, ran upstairs and started squealing and jumping on the bed until we woke up. We barely made it out before the fire blocked off the staircase. That pig saved our lives!"

"So," the salesman asked, "did he lose his leg in the fire?"

The farmer answered, "No. But you don't eat a pig like that all at once."

328 hazzyday  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:27:30pm

re: #326 TheHeebrewHammer

"Chicken Little" syndrome

329 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:49:02pm
330 Hhar  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 1:56:58pm

re: #326 TheHeebrewHammer

A couple reasons:

1. Influenza is deadly as a comorbid agent, IOW healthy people get it, but don't die of it. Swine flu seems to kill young people.

2. It would be best to get this particular bug under control, because (the fear is) that the longer it is around, the more likely it will run into another flu virus, swap spit and mutate into something truly truly nasty.

2. Biden is an idiot.

331 shane  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 2:13:34pm

To 323 Ironfist:

The virus that does the least damage to the host lives the longest and has the highest chance for survival. Like Ebola, 3 to 4 days and you die. (there are two different strains one with a much higher mortality). Now in 3 to 4 days, the host is far to ill to travel so the spread is relatively small. The incubation period and degree of illness will dictate the hosts travel and social interaction. As a virus spreads small differences will appear in the DNA over time. The less lethal, the longer incubation, the more chance to spread. Maybe it would be more correct to call it selective breading, but I also consider that to be a form of evolution.

332 bubbasbbq  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 2:20:05pm

Whenever anybody questions the validity of evolution, simply ask them if "things" can adapt. You know people, dogs, cats, armadillos. Ask them if they can adapt to their surroundings in order to survive. You'll almost always get a yes. Then ask them if things like a virus or a bacterium can adapt. Again, ask them if these can adapt to their surroundings in order to survive. Again, you almost always get a yes. then tll them that is evolution. evolution is the ability for living things to adapt to their surroundings. then watch their heads cave in.

OK, so it is far more complex than that, but it is like watching a super computer trying to divide by zero.

333 Shane  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 2:30:16pm

#332 bubbasbbq:

The problem with creationists is they haven't bothered to read or understand evolution. Evolution is the ability of a species to change and adapt to an evironment. Evolution is not the answer to the question what is the origin of life. Unfortunately, they haven't educated themselves about evolution so they attempt to answer the question of the origin of life with the out come of evolution. Kind of like asking the guy at the hard ware store if he has any 3/16 inch drill bits and his reply is no but I have a 16 foot ladder.

334 Hawaii69  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 2:49:52pm

re: #326 TheHeebrewHammer

Does anyone know why the Feds and other governments getting their panties in a wad over such a benign flu? Why aren't the Feds going ape-doo-doo over the regular flu? About 750 died yesterday from it and the day before that and the day before that.

Because this isn't the the "regular flu". It a completely new, never before seen strain. Avian Flu and Human
Flu genes used a Pig as a mixing vat. The end result is a combination of all three that is now transmissible to humans.

The fact that not too many people have died from it yet hardly means that it is "benign". The more it spreads from human to human, the more easily it will spread. Viruses are just pieces of DNA or RNA, and genetic information that must use a hosts cells to replicate themselves. As they replicate, they mutate.

This new flu may make a benign sweep around the planet, and then come back next year with some new,
and more deadly, properties.

The total number of deaths isn't so importants as the mortality rate. Yes, maybe 500,000 people die worlwide each year from the flu. Influenza normally has about a .1% mortality rate. So, if 500,000 died, that means a total of 499,500,000 people contracted the flu and lived.

Out of 1600 suspected cases of swine flu in Mexico, there are 140 suspected deaths. If those numbers are correct, that's almost a 9% mortality rate. Instead
of 500,000 annual flu deaths, you'd be looking at 450 million.

No one can say that this new flu has anywhere near a 9% mortality rate, and it's unlikely, but there's absolutely nothing to stop such a deadly flu strain from appearing.

Viruses do unpredictable things. Viruses like AIDS and Ebola, which are currently spread only through body fluids, do not survive well outside of the body. because of that, they're not likely to go airborne.

But, "not likely" is a far cry from "impossible".

335 Hawaii69  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 3:01:53pm

re: #41 saberry0530

Since WHO wants to change the name and Islam has a policy against it, and I can see that the Obama administration is trying to use it as a crisis to advance their healthcare agenda, why don't we just call it the "SWINDLED FLU"!


WHO wants to change to name because farmers are getting trounced. Misinformed people believe they can get it from eating pork.

Enjoy your bliss.

336 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 3:09:54pm

re: #190 sarah

First of all, Swine Flu is NOTHING to panic over. Sheesh.

Second of all a little OT that worries me more greatly.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/article s/2009/04/30/20090430dubai0430.html

Swine flu sux.

The US Marines aren't exactly panicky little girls, and they quarantined a fair number of guys who were exposed to a guy who caught it traveling around San Bernardino, CA. I can tell you that the USAF doesn't do that kind of quarantine for regular flu, so government officials are plenty concerned.

337 CEQAttorney  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 3:22:43pm

I've never understood those creationists who deny evolution exists.

Some of you know my personal beliefs. I believe that God does exist and He had something to do with our creation. While the Genesis story is not literally true, in my opinion, God did do something to guide our evolution.

We have seen evolution in our own lifetimes. Those living entities with short lifespans (bacteria, for example) will evolve to adapt to the changing conditions. We see insects and birds change because of new conditions. It is preposterous to think it does not happen.

There really should not be a debate about this.

The existence in God (or a god) is not a provable fact; it's a matter of faith. If you could prove God exists, there would be no need for faith.

338 semperjase  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 3:57:51pm

It seems Charles is comparing apples and oranges.

The macro-evolution of single celled organisms evolving into humans is not the same as the micro-evolution of changing viruses. The flu virus has not evolved into a different species. It is still the flu.

339 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 4:13:27pm

I wondered when the creationists would show up.

340 Scorch  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 4:50:29pm

We fight evolution in insects, plant diseases and weeds full time in agriculture. We rotate crops and limit uses of of herbicides, fungicides and insecticides so any crop disease, insect or weed variety will not evolve into one the products we are provided with will continue to be effective in their control. This can happen in a three year period if one is careless in their actions. Oh by the way I also believe in God and no I am not and never have been a creationist or believer in ID being taught as a science in school.

341 CEQAttorney  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 4:53:00pm

re: #339 Charles

I wondered when the creationists would show up.

Who?

Just out of odd curiosity, where do I fit into that definition? I do believe there is a God and He had something to do with our existence. However, I am not convinced that the Genesis story is completely 100% accurate. It is, in my opinion, man's interpretation of the Creation event.

If you truly believe in God, you have to realize that God is beyond our comprehension. We cannot ascribe human reactions to Him. Time, for example, has no meaning. So, one "day" for God could be anything.

342 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 5:20:06pm

re: #341 CEQAttorney

Who?

The one right before my comment. That's a very very common creationist talking point.

Just out of odd curiosity, where do I fit into that definition?

Well, if you don't deny evolution (whether you call it macro- or micro-evolution, or try to cloak the denial in "intelligent design") then I'd say you're not a creationist.

343 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 5:48:52pm

re: #338 semperjase

It seems Charles is comparing apples and oranges.

The macro-evolution of single celled organisms evolving into humans is not the same as the micro-evolution of changing viruses. The flu virus has not evolved into a different species. It is still the flu.

What stops 'microevolution' from becoming 'macroevolution?'

344 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 6:58:43pm

re: #338 semperjase

It seems Charles is comparing apples and oranges.

The macro-evolution of single celled organisms evolving into humans is not the same as the micro-evolution of changing viruses. The flu virus has not evolved into a different species. It is still the flu.

Actually, viruses can evolve and the new strains (not species) can cause very different diseases. This is evolution. This is natural selection in action.

345 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 6:58:59pm

re: #343 jaunte

What stops 'microevolution' from becoming 'macroevolution?'

Nothing.

346 shane  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 8:39:15pm

To #338 Semperjase:

So you are willing to admit that the virus evolves. That is a good start. Not a start into atheism, but a start into scientific observation. Organisms can evolve and change. That's all. Really. It actually does not have a single thing to do with a belief in god. It really just is an observation that organisms change and adapt to different environments.

347 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:24:50pm

re: #338 semperjase

It seems Charles is comparing apples and oranges.

The macro-evolution of single celled organisms evolving into humans is not the same as the micro-evolution of changing viruses. The flu virus has not evolved into a different species. It is still the flu.

The only 'difference' between 'microevolution' and 'macroevolution' is that in the former, not enough genetic differences between populations have accumulated to prevent interbreeding between them, while in the latter, they have. And this is also a fuzzy distinction at best; horses and donkeys can interbreed and produce mules, and lions and tigers can interbreed and produce ligers and tigons; it's just that these offspring are sterile.

348 Hhar  Fri, May 1, 2009 3:35:08am

re: #338 semperjase

I agree: the evolution of flu virus is not the same process as evolution above the level of the species. On the other hand, comparing apples to oranges (as you say this is) is not invalid: both are edible fruit, and you can something of the properties of one by studying the other. The fact is that a lot of evolution is just what this virus is demonstrating.

Macro-evolution has some aspects that may well not be reducible to gene flow between populations (people who think otherwise need to read Sober's The Nature of Selection and Okasha's Evolution and the Levels of Selection) but all of those phenomena are causally attributable to ordinary biological attributes of organisms, and no special magic needs to be invoked to explain them.

349 iron oxide  Fri, May 1, 2009 5:33:56am

I am not a creationist and I firmly believe in evolution, however it is debatable whether the emergence of H1N1 is an example of evolution in action.

"Viruses straddle the definition of life. They lie somewhere between supra molecular complexes and very simple biological entities. Viruses contain some of the structures and exhibit some of the activities that are common to organic life, but they are missing many of the others. In general, viruses are entirely composed of a single strand of genetic information encased within a protein capsule. Viruses lack most of the internal structure and machinery which characterize 'life', including the biosynthetic machinery that is necessary for reproduction." (George Rice, Montana State University, [Link: serc.carleton.edu...]

If viruses are not alive then the evolution of a virus is no more proof of Darwinian evolution then the evolution of a computer program is.

BTW: I am not George Rice, I am simply quoting him.

350 Mr Secul  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:02:28am

re: #338 semperjase

It seems Charles is comparing apples and oranges.

The macro-evolution of single celled organisms evolving into humans is not the same as the micro-evolution of changing viruses.

Do you know that you have missed a huge number of intermediate steps? Are you just exaggerating or is that actually what you think happened?

The flu virus has not evolved into a different species. It is still the flu.

Just as we are still primates, still apes, still mammals, still amniotes, tetrapods, vertebrates, metazoa, and still eukaryotes. We never stopped belonging to any of our ancestral clades.

Given the nature of viruses, few (or no) biologists would expect viruses to become anything other than viruses. This is because of a specific limitation of viruses and is not a general limitation of evolution.

The only way that I know for a virus to become a not-a-virus is for it to become endogenous (to be incorporated into a non-viral organism's genome). Viruses are unable to replicate without a host but they can contribute to another organism's genome. There is speculation that DNA from viral infections contributed to the evolution of the mammalian placenta.

Note also that species concepts make most sense when applied to organisms that reproduce sexually. In other words, when inheritance is predominantly vertical, from parent(s) to child. Viruses and bacteria can swap genes willy-nilly, even between quite unrelated genomes, so species concepts make less sense when dealing with viruses and bacteria.

351 bodrules  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:06:56am

If viruses are not alive then the evolution of a virus is no more proof of Darwinian evolution then the evolution of a computer program is.

Viruses do evolve, as they have genetic material that is subject to change, these changes are then selected for / against by the environment it finds itself in i.e. pressure is exerted on the virus that selects for changes to its viral coat proteins (aka antigens) in order to evade the hosts immune system (typically B cell mediated in the first instance vis antibodies, and then T cell mediated vis TCR mediated CD4 and CD8 mediated cytotoxcitity) or to ensure that it's more transmissible / infecting a host once transmitted.

In the case of this little beast, the viral coat protein genes are from an existing swine H1N1 strain, the RNA polymerase genes (essential for replicating its RNA genome) are from a human H1N1 strain and the M proteins are from a avian H1N1 strain.

Result of this recombination - a virus with a unique genome, which enables a previously species limited virus (swine) to jump the species barrier and infect a new host species - H sapiens.

And that is evolution in action, right till the fat lady sneezes and drops dead.

352 bodrules  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:22:47am

Any way the good news on this front is that the H1 protein looks to be one that can only mediate infection of the upper respiratory tract epithelial cells - as opposed to deeper in the lung like H5N1 or indeed like the Spanish flu which could infect any old cell it came into contact with.

Also as far as it goes, there seems to be nothing unusual about the NS1 protein either, so fingers crossed.

353 Hhar  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:50:11am

re: #349 iron oxide

I am not a creationist and I firmly believe in evolution, however it is debatable whether the emergence of H1N1 is an example of evolution in action.

"Viruses straddle the definition of life. They lie somewhere between supra molecular complexes and very simple biological entities. Viruses contain some of the structures and exhibit some of the activities that are common to organic life, but they are missing many of the others. In general, viruses are entirely composed of a single strand of genetic information encased within a protein capsule. Viruses lack most of the internal structure and machinery which characterize 'life', including the biosynthetic machinery that is necessary for reproduction." (George Rice, Montana State University, [Link: serc.carleton.edu...]

If viruses are not alive then the evolution of a virus is no more proof of Darwinian evolution then the evolution of a computer program is.

BTW: I am not George Rice, I am simply quoting him.

A couple things. A digression first.
A. . No observed phenomenon is proof of evolution. The theory of evolution can be described as the idea of universal common descent with modification through deep time. In its classical form it had three primary evidentiary bases
1. The evidence of deep time
2. The fossil record, with the evidence of the changing composition of life in its history
3. The nested hierarchy of life.

With molecular biology, we can add to that: the nested hierarchy was developed on the basis of morphology, including embryology. However, the hierarchy is present when you look at molecular genetics, and in its substantial outlines confirms the morphological hierarchy well. So we can call 3. The twin-nested hierarchy of life.

We can now add 4. The molecular evidence for the mechanisms of descent with modification. Note that evolution as formulated doesn't need a specific genetic mechanism to be defined in order for the process to be accepted as real: there is LOTS of evidence THAT it happens, and molecular biology helps tell us HOW it happened.

B. I agree that viruses are not cellular life. But although evolution is a property of living things, it is not exclusively a property of living things. If we accept that life arose from non-life by natural means, then at some point there was a fuzzy zone in which there was almost life which became life. How did that happen? Well, likely non-life evolved from life. So, to my eye, and to the eye of people like John Maynard Smith non-living things could evolve, and the fact that viruses evolve is ordinary and expected.

C. What is evolution? According to one famous (and incorrect) definition, evolution is the the change in gene frequency in populations over time. The definition is wrong because it isn't inclusive enough and because it narrowly defines the process by a single set of mechanisms: it doesn't really include things like higher order causal genetic phenomena (e.g. cytogenetic alterations), but it still captures the central importance of changes in gene frequency as a causal mechanism. Well, viruses have genes, they have populations, so......?

D. Evolution of computer programs can be, in fact, evidence of Darwinian evolution. Simple in silico models of evolution have demonstrated fundamental aspects of evolving systems: simple systems can (for instance) evolve irreducibly complex features by stepwise random mutation and selection. So I'm happy to say that both a computer program and this virus demonstrate features of Darwinian evolution very nicely. Nothing wrong with it.

354 dwells38  Fri, May 1, 2009 7:25:26am

re: #343 jaunte

What stops 'microevolution' from becoming 'macroevolution?'

Continued interbreeding within the species I would think.

But if populations within groups can become separated for long enough they drift apart genetically enough that they can no longer produce viable offspring and continue on separate paths. In nature that can happen due to a geographical barrier (such as a mountain range or a body of water).

355 dwells38  Fri, May 1, 2009 7:54:46am

re: #341 CEQAttorney

Who?

Just out of odd curiosity, where do I fit into that definition? I do believe there is a God and He had something to do with our existence. However, I am not convinced that the Genesis story is completely 100% accurate. It is, in my opinion, man's interpretation of the Creation event.

If you truly believe in God, you have to realize that God is beyond our comprehension. We cannot ascribe human reactions to Him. Time, for example, has no meaning. So, one "day" for God could be anything.

CEQAttorney I think that's as close to reconciling all of this with your beliefs as you're going to get. Some of the IDers try to say that evolution is occurring but that God is directly intervening in each micro and macro step. But breaking that down becomes absurd. What God wastes it's time evolving things like cancer and viruses and insects that lay eggs in other insects body cavities? And how is such an author of mechanicistic oddities and cruel life modes worthy of worship or indistinguishable from blind, cold-hearted natural processes anyway? It provides no answers and only creates lots more questions (who created this cruel God?).

I like your faith-based logical leap better. Kind of like a fantasy movie that immediately forces suspension of disbelief up front so you can enjoy vs the one that tries to make you think the hero can somehow dodge bullets and leap from helicopters to trains unscathed.

356 Hhar  Fri, May 1, 2009 9:03:30am

re: #355 dwells38

CEQAttorney I think that's as close to reconciling all of this with your beliefs as you're going to get. Some of the IDers try to say that evolution is occurring but that God is directly intervening in each micro and macro step. But breaking that down becomes absurd. What God wastes it's time evolving things like cancer and viruses and insects that lay eggs in other insects body cavities?

ID is often an idea about how theology relates to science. An IDer will take their theology, and say it is science. You can have the same notion that IDers have, and acknowlege that it is hardly science, and not be an IDer. In my religion, we holdthat G-d not only created but sustains the universe. IOW, G-d's hand is evident in everything, and nothing he does is wasted. That's a theological position. It does not break down into absurdity, for the simple fact that we do not know why G-d did things and does things the way He does. We do know that He gives us life, and is the source of everything good, and we do not denounce him as absurd, because we are basically ignorant of why He acts the way He does. So what kind of G-d does things as you describe? The G-d who gives life, and sustains, and will sustain.

And how is such an author of mechanicistic oddities and cruel life modes worthy of worship or indistinguishable from blind, cold-hearted natural processes anyway? It provides no answers and only creates lots more questions (who created this cruel God?).

How is He distinguishable from blind mechanism? I have always held that the existence of the Universe is sufficient (but not definitive) evidence for G-d. If you want to know the value of considering G-d, follow in His ways. Which ways, of the myriad religions? I can only point you to mine, as I know their value. Its a personal opinion. Does it have scientific merit? Not really.

I like your faith-based logical leap better. Kind of like a fantasy movie that immediately forces suspension of disbelief up front so you can enjoy vs the one that tries to make you think the hero can somehow dodge bullets and leap from helicopters to trains unscathed.

There is a naive charm to your analysis that I admire. So few people are able to retain into adulthood the innocent appreciativeness you express.

357 shane  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:03:29am

re: 353 hbar;

I consider all of technology an example of evolution. Those things that help man, either in feeding himself or entainment, stay around. Those that don't die off. Cars are a good example. Currently, as the car industry progresses, robots are making more and more of our vehicles. So the entire manufactoring plant can be looked upon as similar to an organism. Those things that change and improve the organism remain, others discarded. And eventually, it will be very self sufficient and have fewer and fewer people working at it. It remains and is improved by man to benefit man. It has evolved.

Just a thought.

358 shane  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:07:45am

re: 341 CEQAttorney;

Who?

Just out of odd curiosity, where do I fit into that definition? I do believe there is a God and He had something to do with our existence. However, I am not convinced that the Genesis story is completely 100% accurate. It is, in my opinion, man's interpretation of the Creation event.

If you truly believe in God, you have to realize that God is beyond our comprehension. We cannot ascribe human reactions to Him. Time, for example, has no meaning. So, one "day" for God could be anything

This is the crux of the problem of reconciling evolution and God. They aren't really related. Evolution is the observation that organisms change over time and adapt to their environments. In no way shape or form does it try to, or accomplish an explanation for the origin of life. It simply doesn't answer that question. A belief in evolution does not dictate where or how life originated.

359 dwells38  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:10:37am

re: #356 Hhar

Nice clarifying comments Hhar. Those of us who place high value on reason have plenty of common ground. And a thinking person of faith such as yourself can easily come to a reason-based position on how life might have developed without feeling as though your theology is threatened by it. And a thinking person not of faith such as myself (give me some slack here) :) can easily see that the current foremost scientific explanation for the development of life on earth doesn't adequately address all of the questions a human mind can pose about our existence, our purpose, and the origin of the universe.

360 bubbasbbq  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:30:17am

re: #333 Shane

Shgane,

I understand this totally, that is why I said to watch their little heads cave in.
you are making them process they clearly do not want to process. And doing it with a smile.


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