Jonathan Chait: Glenn Greenwald Is Ralph Nader

“A liberal who disagrees can only be a kept man”
Opinion • Views: 37,231

Jonathan Chait nails it: Glenn Greenwald Is Ralph Nader.

Greenwald, like Nader, does not believe in meliorist progress. If you are not good, you are evil. Even at the heyday of his career, when he was one of the most powerful figures in America and his brand of crusading regulation reigned nearly unchallenged, Nader was constantly denouncing congressional liberal allies for failing to pass sufficiently pure iterations:

In 1970, Nader championed a report by his staff savaging Ed Muskie, the liberal senator from Maine. Muskie, who helped engineer the Air Quality Act of 1967, had a reputation as an environmental ally, but Nader’s report called the act “disastrous,” adding, “That fact alone would warrant his being stripped of his title as ‘Mr. Pollution Control.’”

That same year, the Senate overwhelmingly passed a bill to create a Consumer Protection Agency (CPA), what Nader called his highest legislative goal. But, just days after praising the bill, Nader turned against it, saying that “intolerable erosions” had rendered the bill “unacceptable.” As Martin writes, “Without Nader’s backing, the bill lost momentum” and died in committee. The pattern repeated itself, as the CPA passed either the House or the Senate five more times over the next six years, but Nader rejected every bill as too compromised.

That is the echo of Greenwald’s suspicions of the Democratic agenda. President Obama scaled back some of the Bush administration’s anti-terror policies — torture, warrantless wiretapping — but kept in place others. One could make the case that he did not change enough, but that is not a Greenwald sort of argument. He insists that Obama is worse than Bush. Obama’s health-care reform was not just a step along the way to Greenwald’s ideal, it was a monstrous sellout that probably did no good at all (“there is a reasonable debate to be had among reform advocates over whether this bill is a net benefit or a net harm.”).

This way of looking at the world naturally places one in conflict with most liberals, who are willing to distinguish between gradations of success or failure. Nader and Greenwald believe their analysis not only completely correct, but so obviously correct that the only motivation one could have to disagree is corruption. Good-faith disagreement, or even rank stupidity, is not possible around Greenwald. His liberal critics are lackeys and partisan shills. He may be willing to concede ideological disagreement with self-identified conservatives, but a liberal who disagrees can only be a kept man.

I’d add another point: the Nader purist cult was also very effective — dismayingly so — in splitting the Democratic voting base in 2000.

Jump to bottom

53 comments
1 Kragar  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:55:02pm

The quest for ideological purity often destroys the chance for any real action to be taken.

2 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:57:15pm

re: #1 Kragar

The quest for ideological purity often destroys the chance for any real action to be taken.

Look at what the Tea Party has done to the GOP.

3 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:57:58pm

Yeah, we remember all too well all the emoprogs who took to the polls in ‘00 on the argument that Gore was “More of Clinton” and they wanted a “Real Progressive” to be in the White House. Then 10 years later, they stay home from the polls because Obama’s not “progressive enough” and wanted to “punish” him for it.

It’s why I’m starting to feel anxious about ‘14, listening to them talk at length about how Obama is “worse than Bush.”

4 efuseakay  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:58:09pm

The only splitting Greenwald is going to do is in the form of splitting headaches any rational person will get trying to read anything he puts out.

5 AlexRogan  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:59:48pm

Greenwald, like Nader, is all about Ideological Purity Uber Alles; they are willing to discard the perfectly good in favor of a never-ending chase after the perfect.

In this respect, they are absolutely no different that the TPer RWNJs; only their philosophies and worldviews are somewhat different.

6 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:01:44pm

Cool - Amazon Prime members can stream the new Stephen King series “Under the Dome” in HD for free. Even though they’ve scaled back some of the shipping options a bit, Amazon Prime is still an awesome deal for what you get.

7 b.d.  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:03:45pm

Did Nader call people fascists? That is all the rage these days.

8 Bulworth  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:04:20pm

OT, but um, apparently this happened:

Senate Republican leaders have sent letters warning six professional sports leagues not to provide the Obama administration any assistance in promoting Obamacare.

The letters, dated June 27, warn the chiefs of the National Football League, Major League Baseball, National Basketball Association, National Hockey League, Professional Golf Association and NASCAR that partnering with the administration to publicize the benefits of the health care law would damage their reputations.

“Given the divisiveness and persistent unpopularity of this bill, it is difficult to understand why an organization like yours would risk damaging its inclusive and apolitical brand by lending its name to its promotion,” wrote Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) and Minority Whip John Cornyn (R-TX).

The letters come days after Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said she’s spoken with the NFL about potentially partnering to let people know the benefits of the Affordable Care Act ahead of the implementation of its major components. (She said there was no deal yet.) The Republican senators rattled off a slew of conservative arguments against the law, stressing polls that signal its unpopularity with the public.

Jeebus fckin Chreesto

9 Flounder  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:06:19pm

Who is Ralph Nader?

10 Joanne  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:07:04pm

re: #8 Bulworth

This is why we can’t have nice things. No matter what, if the GOP is against it, they do everything to fuck it up.

I really, really hate these guys.

11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:07:28pm

re: #7 b.d.

Did Nader call people fascists? That is all the rage these days.

American Fascism: Ralph Nader Decries How Big Business Has Taken Control of the U.S. Government | Common Dreams

12 b.d.  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:08:05pm

re: #5 AlexRogan

Greenwald, like Nader, /snip
In this respect, they are absolutely no different that the TPer RWNJs; only their philosophies and worldviews are somewhat different.

TeaBaggers actually got candidates elected, drove the narrative and had some things change (all horribly destructive), the Naderite Greenwald sect just whines.

13 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:08:09pm

re: #8 Bulworth

OT, but um, apparently this happened:

“Given the divisiveness and persistent unpopularity of this bill, it is difficult to understand why an organization like yours would risk damaging its inclusive and apolitical brand by lending its name to its promotion,” wrote Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) and Minority Whip John Cornyn (R-TX).

Jeebus fckin Chreesto

Bill? It’s not a fucking BILL, it’s the fucking LAW.

14 Patricia Kayden  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:08:37pm

“the Nader purist cult was also very effective — dismayingly so — in splitting the Democratic voting base in 2000.”

But the Republicans have become considerably crazier and extreme than 2000 so hopefully Democrats won’t let that happen in 2016 (or ever again).

15 b.d.  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:09:15pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

Thanks, silly me for thinking it was an original thought of theirs.

16 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:09:16pm

With the ideological bend of the owners of the billion + dollar sports industry, all I see is McConnell preaching to the choir.

17 efuseakay  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:12:22pm

re: #13 GeneJockey

Bill? It’s not a fucking BILL, it’s the fucking LAW.

That should be the exact response of the NFL/NBA et all.

18 AlexRogan  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:12:29pm

re: #8 Bulworth

OT, but um, apparently this happened:

Jeebus fckin Chreesto

I wonder if the TPGOPers have threatened or would threaten MLB’s antitrust status over this, even though this was just feelers going out from Sebilius to all of the major sports leagues.

19 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:12:58pm

I’ve been a target of Greenwald’s moralistic, dishonest attacks for many years. He stopped going after me when I started redirecting all links from his blog to a site that documented his sock puppet commenting habits.

He flat-out lied about me more than once, attributed words in quotes to me that I never said or wrote, then absolutely refused to retract them. This, my friends, is what is known as a major asshole. In my book, at least.

What Chait doesn’t mention is that Greenwald’s ideological attacks often include hefty doses of outright dishonesty.

20 Patricia Kayden  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:14:02pm

re: #12 b.d.

Who is pure enough on the Left to get their votes?

21 AlexRogan  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:14:05pm

re: #16 Amory Blaine

With the ideological bend of the owners of the billion + dollar sports industry, all I see is McConnell preaching to the choir.

However, if the players’ unions/orgs want to do it, I can’t see that the owners would be able to do jack shit about it.

I hope they do it anyway.

22 Dave In Austin  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:14:48pm

I’m sick to my stomach. A new level of doucheeness.
Mr Rodgers is evil….. My God!!

http://www.upworthy.com/fox-news-spends-6-minutes-describing-why-mr-rogers-was-an-evil-evil-man-5

23 Joanne  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:15:05pm

re: #20 Patricia Kayden

Who is pure enough on the Left to get their votes?

Jesus Christ?

24 AlexRogan  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:17:35pm

re: #23 Joanne

Jesus Christ?

I’m sure that Nader would nominate himself as being sufficiently pure.

25 b.d.  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:18:09pm

re: #20 Patricia Kayden

Who is pure enough on the Left to get their votes?

Touché. They have even already turned on Warren because of her vote on the “Monsanto Protection Act”.

26 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:18:34pm

I don’t know about pure enough, but here in Wisconsin, there is no one with enough name recognition to run against Walker. Ask any democrat in the state about Ron Kind. Blank stare, then ” who the fuck is Ron Kind?”.

The GOP has done real damage to the democrats here.

27 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:23:05pm

Nazi flag is anti-Obama, not anti-Jew, says homeowner

“I respect your First Amendment rights,” a Connors Lane neighbor told Joseph Sincavage about the Nazi swastika flag hanging off the front of Sincavage’s house.

“I don’t respect Nazism, but I respect your First Amendment rights,” said the neighbor.

That episode, which took place as a reporter was suggesting that passersby could conclude that the flag flyer was anti-Jew, seemed to help Sincavage understand the suggestion.

At that moment, late morning Thursday June 27, Sincavage decided to fly an Israeli flag also, “so Jewish people won’t think I’m mad at them or anything like that.” He immediately ordered one and said, “It’s on the way.”

The flag of Nazi Germany, which symbolizes for many race supremacy, hatred, violence and murder of Jewish people, is being flown not to convey those messages, said Sincavage, a 73-year-old U.S. Marine. He said he is flying the flag as a symbol of a totalitarian state, which he said Germany became, and which he feels the United States is becoming under President Barack Obama.

28 stabby  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:27:51pm

re: #22 Dave In Austin

I’m sick to my stomach. A new level of doucheeness.
Mr Rodgers is evil….. My God!!

http://www.upworthy.com/fox-news-spends-6-minutes-describing-why-mr-rogers-was-an-evil-evil-man-5

wtf!
xkcd.com

Note the mouse-over text.

29 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:27:51pm

re: #27 Amory Blaine

Nazi flag is anti-Obama, not anti-Jew, says homeowner

Oh, FFS.

“We’re becoming a totalitarian state!” says an opponent of the current Administration, who has absolutely no reason to fear any kind of reprisal for speaking so negatively about the government. It’s like the folks who think that the fall of DOMA somehow erodes THEIR freedoms.

As my Mom would have said, “Holy jumping Judas priest!” - have these people no sense at all?

30 A Mom Anon  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:30:25pm

re: #27 Amory Blaine

OFFS. WTF is wrong with people. Yes, it makes SOOOO much sense to fly the Nazi flag with Israel’s. Seriously?

I swear, if I was the Queen of the World, I would pre-empt all TV and radio broadcasts with American and World History programming written by actual historians for the next 6 months. That level of ignorance is weapons grade.

31 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:36:21pm

re: #30 A Mom Anon

OFFS. WTF is wrong with people. Yes, it makes SOOOO much sense to fly the Nazi flag with Israel’s. Seriously?

I swear, if I was the Queen of the World, I would pre-empt all TV and radio broadcasts with American and World History programming written by actual historians for the next 6 months. That level of ignorance is weapons grade.

On the plus side, flying those two together will convey an important message: “This homeowner is seriously confused.”

32 gunnison  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:39:13pm

Every observation you make here, Charles, is incontestable - Nader did split the vote, with consequences that we all still endure.
Both Nader and Greenwald are peas in a pod when it comes to inflexible pugnacity.
I’m quite prepared to accept that Greenwald and your good self have a history which is much as you describe; my own experience with GG is that he’d rather have a root canal without novocaine than openly admit he fucked up, so there’s no fight out of me with any of this.

That said, the chances that we will avoid leaving our children with a tragic and impossible inheritance by any political/economic process which occupies the middle ground between where the GOP now is, and where the Democrats now are, are just about exactly zero.

So it’s a bit of a puzzle, isn’t it?

33 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:50:15pm

re: #32 gunnison

That said, the chances that we will avoid leaving our children with a tragic and impossible inheritance by any political/economic process which occupies the middle ground between where the GOP now is, and where the Democrats now are, are just about exactly zero.

So it’s a bit of a puzzle, isn’t it?

Not really. Reread what you just read, and then think about the solution.

34 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:58:43pm

re: #27 Amory Blaine

Yeah, I hear that level of fuckery from people who fly the confederate flag or have it on their vehicle. At the same time, I don’t see any Ghanian flag, for instance, displayed alongside those.

35 gunnison  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 3:01:51pm

re: #33 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Not really. Reread what you just read, and then think about the solution.

I’m thinking that perhaps you’re reading something that I’m not saying.
I can’t tell.
Perhaps you could fill in the blanks for me about “solutions”?

36 BroncD  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 3:11:47pm

Youtube Video

This is Ralph Nader. This is who he is. He needs to be shunned forever by polite society.

37 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 3:23:14pm

re: #35 gunnison

I’m thinking that perhaps you’re reading something that I’m not saying.
I can’t tell.
Perhaps you could fill in the blanks for me about “solutions”?

Sure. First of all, left and right are meaningless. They’re part of the problem a simple binary system that doesn’t accurately represent jack shit. And the problem doesn’t lie with the parties, it lies with the electorate. An outside, third party does no good whatsoever, which is easily demonstrable— they barely scratch up any vote. What is necessary is a better-educated populace, a better-informed populace. So that has to be the issue you support— which means that, until the GOP reforms itself into a party with any practical solutions— that Democrats need to get supported because their policies, broadly, result in a better-engaged and better-informed electorate.

38 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 3:50:08pm

re: #13 GeneJockey

Bill? It’s not a fucking BILL, it’s the fucking LAW.

39 gunnison  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 3:50:28pm

re: #37 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Sure. First of all, left and right are meaningless. They’re part of the problem a simple binary system that doesn’t accurately represent jack shit. And the problem doesn’t lie with the parties, it lies with the electorate. An outside, third party does no good whatsoever, which is easily demonstrable— they barely scratch up any vote. What is necessary is a better-educated populace, a better-informed populace. So that has to be the issue you support— which means that, until the GOP reforms itself into a party with any practical solutions— that Democrats need to get supported because their policies, broadly, result in a better-engaged and better-informed electorate.

Ah, now I see where you’re coming from.
I don’t see it as binary in quite that way. I’m not as convinced that the democrats are as dedicated to conjuring a better informed, better educated citizenry as you seem to be, though they’re more aligned with that than the current iteration of the GOP without a doubt.

Your strategy boils down to voting democrat until such time as the GOP transforms into a solution-generator. At least that’s the way it reads to me.

I don’t think that will work. The problems are systemic - we’re welded to an economic edifice which must grow exponentially to support the usury upon which it rests, and we have no clue how to decouple economic growth from a similar growth profile in resource consumption. Neither the GOP or the democrats are willing to address that issue, and both are arguing about “growth”, not in the sense that it’s problematic, but merely about how to best promote it.
Consequently all of our institutions - political, economic, legal and religious - are now systemically incapable of responding to newly emerging planetary baselines.

I agree it’s not about “left” or “right”. Completely. But voting the lesser of two evils until one of those “evils” has some kind of magical epiphany won’t cut it so far as avoiding a train wreck for the next generation.

40 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 3:52:19pm

re: #23 Joanne

Jesus Christ?

nope…he’s a hippie…

41 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 4:14:29pm

re: #39 gunnison

I don’t see it as binary in quite that way. I’m not as convinced that the democrats are as dedicated to conjuring a better informed, better educated citizenry as you seem to be, though they’re more aligned with that than the current iteration of the GOP without a doubt.

That’s all that matters.

Your strategy boils down to voting democrat until such time as the GOP transforms into a solution-generator. At least that’s the way it reads to me.

Yeah, and pushing the Democrats to be more progressive from within, by voting for the most progressive candidates that can actually win their districts.

I don’t think that will work. The problems are systemic - we’re welded to an economic edifice which must grow exponentially to support the usury upon which it rests, and we have no clue how to decouple economic growth from a similar growth profile in resource consumption.

What usury?

And yeah, we need to move to a sustainable economy, too.

Consequently all of our institutions - political, economic, legal and religious - are now systemically incapable of responding to newly emerging planetary baselines.

So your plan is..?

42 gunnison  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 4:31:06pm

re: #41 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

That’s all that matters.

You don’t sound to me like someone with a tendency to oversimplify, so we both know a statement like that is suspect right out of the box.

Yeah, and pushing the Democrats to be more progressive from within, by voting for the most progressive candidates that can actually win their districts.

No quarrel with that, really.

What usury?

Um, I’m not sure how to address that question. Last I heard we were still placing our eggs in the capitalist basket. Are you saying it’s not structured around loans and interest? And that if the economy doesn’t grow at something like 3% annually, with 3.5% or 4% being even “better” then we start to have problems with those elements? (As a point of interest, a 3.5% growth rate propels the economy into being twice as big in 20 years as it is today. Twice as big.)

And yeah, we need to move to a sustainable economy, too.

Sure we do, and we have no clue what that might look like, nor are we even ready to approach discussing it in terms which aren’t predicated on “growth”. Which ain’t gonna happen.

So your plan is..?

I wish I knew.
I don’t come to comment threads like this to evangelize solutions that I hold dear to my breast. I come to places like this when I see some interesting and thoughtful viewpoints which align well with my own instincts, in the hope of really discussing issues in a reality based way.
I agree without sustainability being a primary goal, we’re pissing in the wind. I don’t know what a sustainable economy capable of supporting high-tech modernity would look like.
I don’t know anyone who does. Humankind is at a unique moment in the trajectory of its history, so this is all quite new, and very difficult to even embrace all the implications of that.

43 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 4:36:41pm

re: #42 gunnison

You don’t sound to me like someone with a tendency to oversimplify, so we both know a statement like that is suspect right out of the box.

I’m not someone to oversimplify. That’s not a simple answer.

Um, I’m not sure how to address that question. Last I heard we were still placing our eggs in the capitalist basket. Are you saying it’s not structured around loans and interest? And that if the economy doesn’t grow at something like 3% annually, with 3.5% or 4% being even “better” then we start to have problems with those elements? (As a point of interest, a 3.5% growth rate propels the economy into being twice as big in 20 years as it is today. Twice as big.)

How the hell is that usury?

I wish I knew.

Great. Let me know when you’ve got something. Until then, what the hell, dude, did you just decide you wanted to waste my time for awhile?

44 gunnison  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 5:16:14pm

re: #43 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

re: #43 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m not someone to oversimplify. That’s not a simple answer.

“That’s all that matters” is about as simple a concept as could be.

How the hell is that usury?

OK call it something else, loans and interest if you like, the fact remains that without a growth rate in excess of 3% or so, the system won’t support that “return on investment”.
That’s the issue. And we don’t know how to decouple that kind of economic growth from similar growth in resource consumption. Since resource consumption growth rates like that cannot be supported any longer by reason of planetary imperatives - we have a problem.
And neither party is willing to even have this shit on the table for discussion.

Great. Let me know when you’ve got something. Until then, what the hell, dude, did you just decide you wanted to waste my time for awhile?

It was you who replied to my comment, I didn’t engage you, so what the fuck is this about me wasting your time?
Anyway, if exploratory discussion is not your bag, that’s fine. But you’re in charge of your own time management, not me.
I didn’t decide a fucking thing about your time - I simply replied to you because you addressed me.
Civility.
Perhaps you might try it.

45 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 5:31:41pm

re: #44 gunnison

“That’s all that matters” is about as simple a concept as could be.

It can still be the end conclusion of a very complex chain of thought. As in this case.

OK call it something else, loans and interest if you like, the fact remains that without a growth rate in excess of 3% or so, the system won’t support that “return on investment”.

I just don’t get why this is a core problem. You can have a sustainable economy that grows. It seems like an ancillary issue.

It was you who replied to my comment, I didn’t engage you, so what the fuck is this about me wasting your time?

You disagreed with my proposed solution on the grounds that you have no idea what it will take to fix this but somehow you’re certain that what I’m saying has no part in it. That’s the bit where I feel like my time gets wasted. If you’re a doomer, then say so, that’s fine. If you’re not, then it seems pretty obvious that even if long-term there’s some grander solution, the best thing right now is to stop the death-spiralling GOP from blocking all goddamn progress at all on climate change, for example. Whatever is coming down the pike at it, it’s not a binary thing, it’s a thing of magnitudes, and so yes, it really is better to get a weak-tea Democrat over a complete asshole Republican, every time.

And don’t be a sensitive plant.

46 gunnison  Fri, Jun 28, 2013 7:06:47pm

re: #45 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I just don’t get why this is a core problem. You can have a sustainable economy that grows. It seems like an ancillary issue

If we can figure out how to have an economy that grows without that growth being joined at the hip to similar growth in consumption, then yes, I agree.
But I don’t know how we do that, specifically, within the context of an economy based to the tune of about 70% on consumerism.
Do you know?

You disagreed with my proposed solution on the grounds that you have no idea what it will take to fix this but somehow you’re certain that what I’m saying has no part in it. That’s the bit where I feel like my time gets wasted. If you’re a doomer, then say so, that’s fine. If you’re not, then it seems pretty obvious that even if long-term there’s some grander solution, the best thing right now is to stop the death-spiralling GOP from blocking all goddamn progress at all on climate change, for example. Whatever is coming down the pike at it, it’s not a binary thing, it’s a thing of magnitudes, and so yes, it really is better to get a weak-tea Democrat over a complete asshole Republican, every time.

I don’t disagree with that. What I do say is that it’s my personal instinct that that won’t be enough to avoid a chaotic series of problems for our progeny.
I’m not saying jettison those ideas, not at all, and of course we have to fight to keep the hyper-toxic assholes out of office by, if there’s no other way, replacing them with less toxic ones.
If that makes me a ‘doomer’ in your eyes then so be it, but for my money doomers are those who are resigned, and that sure as hell ain’t me.

And don’t be a sensitive plant.

I’m not one of those either. That doesn’t mean I’ll let you blame me for wasting your time.
:)
To be clear, I don’t take the position that what you’re saying has no part to play, that would be both stupid and disagreeable. If I gave the impression that I thought your suggestions were worthless, that was a mistake, and looking back I don’t think that’s what I said.

What I do say is that I fear it won’t be enough - I think we need more radicalism to apply pressure on the sclerotic system (which means on the fuckwits that Charles does such a good job of ridiculing here on LGF) via direct citizen activism, just for starters.

47 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 29, 2013 4:07:21am

re: #46 gunnison

If we can figure out how to have an economy that grows without that growth being joined at the hip to similar growth in consumption, then yes, I agree.
But I don’t know how we do that, specifically, within the context of an economy based to the tune of about 70% on consumerism.
Do you know?

I really don’t get why this is any sort of stumbling block to you at all. It’s completely unclear to me. If you’re in a sustainable economy, an increase in consumption really doesn’t matter. It’s figuring out how to get stuff to the sustainable tech that’s the problem.

I don’t disagree with that. What I do say is that it’s my personal instinct that that won’t be enough to avoid a chaotic series of problems for our progeny.

Probably. Maybe utter devastation for them.

I’m not saying jettison those ideas, not at all, and of course we have to fight to keep the hyper-toxic assholes out of office by, if there’s no other way, replacing them with less toxic ones.

Okay. Your original framing of the problem was that some middle ground between the GOP and the Democrats wasn’t going to result in anything good, that this was a ‘puzzle’, and this was right after talking about Nader and Greenwald. Unless that was a massive non sequitur, it clearly has an implication that someone, somewhere, thinks that the middle ground between the GOP and the Democrats is going to be a successful place. Was it just a non sequitur?

To be clear, I don’t take the position that what you’re saying has no part to play, that would be both stupid and disagreeable. If I gave the impression that I thought your suggestions were worthless, that was a mistake, and looking back I don’t think that’s what I said.

Yeah, when you say that what I’m doing is hoping for a magical epiphany, that is pretty much telling me that my suggestions are worthless. In general, when you accuse the person you’re arguing with of waiting for magic to solve the problem, that’s a pretty heavy and insulting charge.

What I do say is that I fear it won’t be enough - I think we need more radicalism to apply pressure on the sclerotic system (which means on the fuckwits that Charles does such a good job of ridiculing here on LGF) via direct citizen activism, just for starters.

I think we need more radicals in office, and to do that we need to shift the GOP and the Democrats both, and you do that by shifting the populace. And there’s no magic to that, just a thousand million individual actions.

And yeah, it may not work. Of course.

48 recurvata  Sat, Jun 29, 2013 5:00:45am

Charles, I get that you don’t like Greenwald, and you may have very good and valid reasons for feeling that way. Maybe he is the asshole you think he is. But your animus towards him colors everything you write about his work. The NSA story is a big story. Discrediting it because it’s reported by the evil Greenwald, who got a few technical details wrong, is bad reasoning. Your anti-Greenwald mania is the focus for everything you write about this topic. Look back at your posts on it over the past month. All, or almost all, are focused or predicated on what a shit Greenwald is. Maybe you should just write a post about how bad he is, get it all out, and let it go. Two semi quotes here: Resentment is like drinking poison and hoping it will kill your enemy, and, from Arthur Conan Doyle, Please grasp this fact with your cerebral tentacle, the doll and its maker are not identical (always wanted to use that one).

49 gunnison  Sat, Jun 29, 2013 9:59:36am

re: #47 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I really don’t get why this is any sort of stumbling block to you at all. It’s completely unclear to me. If you’re in a sustainable economy, an increase in consumption really doesn’t matter. It’s figuring out how to get stuff to the sustainable tech that’s the problem.

What I’m saying is that our economy in its current form, and our rate of resource consumption are not separate issues - they are distinct features of a single issue. Thus “getting stuff to the sustainable tech” is problematic in a world with decreasing availability of vital resources. Especially energy and water.

There are also hard limits (the Laws of Thermodynamics) on the amount of energy we can consume on-planet, regardless, and this is important, of how or where that power is generated. Even generating power on the moon and transporting it back to Earth with Harry Potter’s magic wand does not get us off the hook with that problem, and that hard limit is approaching closer than we think. I can provide links to the physics of this issue if you’re interested in looking at them.

What’s unclear to me is why you don’t think these things are problematic. It’s resources that are the primary phenomenon, humans and their economic apparatus are a derivative phenomenon. Thus an economy which rests primarily on consumption is inherently problematic, and capitalism (socialism too) does indeed rest on that. I’m saying we don’t know (or I sure don’t know) what a “sustainable” economy would look like in this context.

… Your original framing of the problem was that some middle ground between the GOP and the Democrats wasn’t going to result in anything good, that this was a ‘puzzle’, and this was right after talking about Nader and Greenwald. Unless that was a massive non sequitur, it clearly has an implication that someone, somewhere, thinks that the middle ground between the GOP and the Democrats is going to be a successful place. Was it just a non sequitur?

More like clumsiness.
What I originally extracted from your words was that; the GOP is batshit insane (they are of course) - the democrats are less insane (also true) - therefore we should vote dem until such time as the GOP gets some kind of clue. In that scenario, were it to play out like that, the most likely outcome would be some compromise positions emerging from political horse-trading between those two parties. Some “middle ground” would thus naturally occur regardless of its appropriateness or value.

So I’m not suggesting such middle ground as a “successful place” - it would be a worthless place - but it would emerge anyway simply from the dynamics of a two-party system.

In general, when you accuse the person you’re arguing with of waiting for magic to solve the problem, that’s a pretty heavy and insulting charge.

I’m simply describing in good faith the way these things look to me, and we’re both running into the common problem of there being a difference between what we’re saying and what the other person is hearing.
I actually work at not being insulting most of the time in settings like this, but by reason of clumsiness ( or sometimes sheer rascality) I don’t always succeed. I’m not trying to insult you - somebody once told me not to be a ‘sensitive plant’, which seemed to me like good advice at the time.

I do agree that the sensibilities of the populace must shift before we can get any traction. I suspect that those sensibilities are going to be impacted by the (perhaps) chaotic withdrawal of much of modernity’s opulence before they are likely to be impacted by any educational

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 29, 2013 1:27:12pm

re: #48 recurvata

Don’t know if you’ve ever noticed this, but there seem to be a lot of people who don’t exactly admire Glenn Greenwald, including the author of the piece linked above. Ever wonder why?

51 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 29, 2013 2:16:03pm

I think I’ve made a pretty solid case that his reporting throughout the NSA story has been sloppy, inaccurate, and often very misleading. Yep, I’m not Gleen’s biggest fan, and I fully admit it. But the reason for that is not based on irrational personal bias — it’s because of his outrageous character assassination tactics and his tendency to jump into paranoid fear-mongering to get his points across. Does he sometimes have good points - yes. But he often covers up and misrepresents facts in order to get those points across. That offends me as someone who tries to get things as accurate as possible.

As Greenwald himself says, he approaches writing like a litigator, and that means he’s not trying to be fair or even necessarily completely honest. And it shows.

52 gunnison  Sat, Jun 29, 2013 2:36:30pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

Does he sometimes have good points - yes. But he often covers up and misrepresents facts in order to get those points across.

Agree. Completely.
Several denizens of the comment threads at his new perch at the Guardian have called him on it too, which of course triggers the hive mind of that hardcore center of his commentariat into a state of apoplexy.

That said, and as you point out specifically, he sometimes gets it right. And as you also point out repeatedly, the fact that he’s all of those things that we’re saying he is doesn’t mean that a conversation about overreach on the part of government agencies is unnecessary.
Not just government agencies either, we’ve got plenty of big private interests that are way to big for their britches too.

53 MikeTheModerateDemocrat  Sat, Jun 29, 2013 3:29:30pm

No Nader means no Iraq war, period.

But he doesn’t care. The egotistical jackass just doesn’t care.

And neither does Greenwald.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Good Liars at The Libertarian Convention [VIDEO] The Good Liars visit the Libertarian Convention in Washington DC. They interview presidential candidates, talk to someone who thinks people should be allowed to own nuclear weapons, and Starchild. SUPPORT US: http://Herohero.co/thegoodliars SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!NASHVILLE, TN JUNE ...
teleskiguy
Yesterday
Views: 182 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Ranked-Choice Voting Has Challenged the Status Quo. Its Popularity Will Be Tested in November. JUNEAU — Alaska’s new election system — with open primaries and ranked voting — has been a model for those in other states who are frustrated by political polarization and a sense that voters lack real choice at the ...
Cheechako
5 days ago
Views: 174 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0