Our Friends the Saudis

World • Views: 4,122

A horrific crime leads to horrific punishment, in the religious apartheid kingdom: Saudi beheads and crucifies murder convict.

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) — Saudi authorities beheaded and crucified a man convicted of brutally slaying an 11-year-old boy and his father, the Interior Ministry announced.

According to the statement issued by the ministry Friday, shop owner Ahmed al-Anzi molested the boy and then strangled him with a length of rope. He then stabbed the boy’s father to death when the man came looking for his son. He hid both the bodies in his shop, the statement said, adding that al-Anzi threatened police with a knife when they came to arrest him.

Al-Anzi had previously been convicted of sodomy and owning pornographic films, a crime in conservative Saudi Arabia.

Crucifying the headless body in a public place is a way to set an example, according to the kingdom’s strict interpretation of Islam. Normally those convicted of rape, murder and drug trafficking in Saudi Arabia are just beheaded.

London-based rights group Amnesty International criticized al-Anzi’s execution and crucifixion.

Jump to bottom

197 comments
1 wiffersnapper  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:33:10am

The Religion of Pieces.

2 rollwave87  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:33:54am

hmm isn't our President going there to bow with them next week?
...and yeah, I know, Bush did it too and looked equally stupid if not even worse...

3 tradewind  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:34:13am

Ugh, the Saudis.
I still think there's some merit in the old saying
' Kick their ass, take back our gas '.

4 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:34:35am

But sharia law is a deterrent to crimes like this, surely/

5 jcm  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:34:46am

Quaint and Charming little Kingdom reads the travel guides.

/////////////

6 tradewind  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:35:16am

re: #1 wiffersnapper

The Religion of BlowemtoPeaces.

7 vxbush  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:35:49am

I really hope we don't have any pictures of that.

8 Summer Seale  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:35:53am

I really don't care if they execute child molesters and murderers. For what this guy did, he definitely deserved the ultimate punishment. That being said, the method of execution is pretty grotesque, displaying the body is absolutely loathsome (Why should anyone be forced to give up their lunch because of what this guy did?), and I think that their entire notion of sexuality is probably a major contributing factor to this guy's instability and crime.

Sounds liberal of me, I know. What can I say? He's not blameless, and he did deserve to die. But maybe they should rethink some stuff anyway.

9 rollwave87  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:36:10am

re: #2 rollwave87

hmm isn't our President going there to bow with them next week?
...and yeah, I know, Bush did it too and looked equally stupid if not even worse...

sorry that should say "bow to them." important distinction in this case. and, while we're on the subject, does anyone else think maybe it should be these animals who have to give up land for a 'Palestinian' state, and not Israel, the only country in the region that doesn't think we're still in the 7th century?

10 albusteve  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:36:22am

DRILL
NUKE POWER

11 JammieWearingFool  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:37:57am

Those wacky conservatives.

12 PaxAmericana  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:38:02am

What's the point of a crucifixion if they behead you first?

13 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:38:17am

This kind of thing happens in Norway all the time!
/

14 tradewind  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:38:22am

re: #9 rollwave87

Seriously, the land for a Palestinian arsenal State should be carved from the countries that kicked those people who claim to be the Pals out in the first place.... they came from Southern Syria, parts of Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.

15 francisb  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:38:28am

It does seem a bit backwards. Why crucify a corpse? It'd be a lot worse to crucify first, then behead if you want to get seriously medieval. You think they'd have this down, still living in the dark ages and all...

16 Pass The Moonbaticide  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:38:52am

Crucify an already beheaded body ?

Gotta be certain, I suppose.

17 debutaunt  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:39:31am

re: #12 PaxAmericana

What's the point of a crucifixion if they behead you first?

It's a little something for the audience.

18 MacDuff  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:39:55am

Should we expect more from people who have made no civilizational progress in well over a millenium? They'll change when they must, and not a moment sooner.

19 jcm  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:40:05am

re: #10 albusteve

DRILL
NUKE POWER

EARTH FIRST!

WE'LL MINE THE OTHER PLANETS LATER!

//

20 albusteve  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:40:54am

re: #12 PaxAmericana

What's the point of a crucifixion if they behead you first?

style points

21 seagreenroom  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:40:59am

[Ed. note: This account has been blocked.]

I really have no problem with making an example out of the guy. We need to be doing the same thing to this kind of scum. Stick em in the town square on a Sunday afternoon.

It's just good advertising.

22 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:41:02am

re: #14 tradewind

Seriously, the land for a Palestinian arsenal State should be carved from the countries that kicked those people who claim to be the Pals out in the first place.... they came from Southern Syria, parts of Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.

Jordan IS Palestine.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:41:03am

I have to say that this sort of falls for me into the Clawhammer Category. I'm opposed to the death penalty on general principles, but most of the guys we execute out here in California fall into the class of people I would myself execute with a clawhammer if the state asked me to.

That said---ooooh, gross. And---these are the people we keep listening to about how to create lasting peace in the Middle East?

24 Altermite  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:41:51am

I think that the proper midieval method for displaying a corpse is a gibbet, not a cross. Silly Saudis.

I'm torn on this one. I think that their blaming his rape and two murders on 'being a sodmist' is reprehensible. He was a child molester, and that has nothing to do with being gay.

On the other hand, he was a child molester, and while it is barbaric, I can't help but think that would be a terrifying deterrent.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:42:29am

re: #12 PaxAmericana

What's the point of a crucifixion if they behead you first?

Public display.

26 ctrlL  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:42:33am

What does it say about the people of a nation when, in order to "set an example", the state publicly beheads and then crucifies criminals. It appears that the general population must already be somewhat used to barbarism in everyday life to need
this disgusting reminder to not commit a crime.
Do you suppose it is something in the water?
////////

27 KenJen  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:42:57am

Crucifixion was used to for slow, painful deaths. Leave it to ass backward people to chop his head off first.

28 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:43:14am

re: #24 Altermite

I think that the proper midieval method for displaying a corpse is a gibbet, not a cross. Silly Saudis.

I'm torn on this one. I think that their blaming his rape and two murders on 'being a sodmist' is reprehensible. He was a child molester, and that has nothing to do with being gay.

On the other hand, he was a child molester, and while it is barbaric, I can't help but think that would be a terrifying deterrent.

Didn't deter him.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:43:28am

re: #14 tradewind

Seriously, the land for a Palestinian arsenal State should be carved from the countries that kicked those people who claim to be the Pals out in the first place.... they came from Southern Syria, parts of Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.

Now if only those countries had some contiguous borders all in one spot, we'd be in business.

30 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:43:36am

After taking the dude off of his cross everyone gathered for a rousing 'stoning' session followed by propping him up against a wall for the firing squad to have a go.

31 albusteve  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:43:38am

re: #19 jcm

EARTH FIRST!

WE'LL MINE THE OTHER PLANETS LATER!

//

BURN THE APPALACHIANS NOW!

32 [deleted]  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:45:49am
33 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:46:27am

Gee Whiz -

A crucifixion, on Shavuot, in and around Pentecost, will wonders never cease.

-S-

34 rollwave87  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:46:29am

re: #21 seagreenroom

I really have no problem with making an example out of the guy. We need to be doing the same thing to this kind of scum. Stick em in the town square on a Sunday afternoon.

It's just good advertising.

the last time I checked, America has gotten this far cause our founders (Hamilton, Adams, Washington, Franklin) weren't huge fans of the whole 'mob rule/vigilante justice' thing...what if that guy wasn't even the one who committed the crime? if you're really into that way of running a society, check into timeshares in Gaza. Im sure you'll find a good deal.

35 jemima  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:46:51am

Amnesty International was critical of this punishment.

Another gormless international agency is heard from before teatime.

36 Altermite  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:48:14am

re: #28 Jimmah

Didn't deter him.

Good point.

37 MandyManners  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:50:34am

re: #21 seagreenroom

You're fucking sick. Why don't you go live there?

38 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:51:04am

Honest question: already-dead or not, have the Saudis ever actually crucified anyone in modern memory? That seems bizarre, even for them. I mean, not that beheading isn't, but jeez louise.

Also, I am genuinely interested in how they find people to serve the role of Official Mutilator. Are they conscripted? Volunteers? Is it considered a prestigious position, or just one of those things that someone has to do, like picking up the garbage?

39 tradewind  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:52:03am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

/details/
Just saying...
Make it a five state solution, then. Just let them go back home.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:52:20am

No quite two hundred years ago, you could get a lavish breakfast, champagne and a great view of public hangings at a hotel in London that happened to have a good vantage point on the public gallows.

Charles Dickens was offered a day out at this place. He declined.

Times change. But people have to want them to, and they have to have the freedom to speak out.

41 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:52:49am

re: #21 seagreenroom

I really have no problem with making an example out of the guy. We need to be doing the same thing to this kind of scum. Stick em in the town square on a Sunday afternoon.

It's just good advertising.

Yeah! That's what America needs -- to be more like Saudi Arabia! Let's put black sacks on our women too, while we're at it.

42 tradewind  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:52:55am

re: #39 tradewind

(After all, it IS all about a homeland, right? They just want a little place of their own..)
/sarc/

43 tradewind  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:53:49am

re: #41 Charles

And yank those drivers' licenses while we're at it!
That'd solve our dependence on foreign oil.......

44 debutaunt  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:55:13am

re: #30 Truck Monkey

After taking the dude off of his cross everyone gathered for a rousing 'stoning' session followed by propping him up against a wall for the firing squad to have a go.

And finally, he was picked last for a team.

45 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:55:18am

re: #32 Claire

Child molester/murderer? I wish we could do a little public crucifying here for scum like that and they wouldn't even have to be beheaded first.

Either American values mean something, or they don't. Call me an idealist, but I'd prefer the US remain an example for the rest of the world, rather than just another member of the rabble.

46 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:55:42am

Crucifies? How very Roman of them!

47 c6gunner  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:56:43am

He wasn't crucified; by definition, crucifixion requires the individual to be alive. Displaying a corpse in public, even if it's tied or nailed to a cross, is not crucifixion.

48 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:58:00am

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

No quite two hundred years ago, you could get a lavish breakfast, champagne and a great view of public hangings at a hotel in London that happened to have a good vantage point on the public gallows.

Charles Dickens was offered a day out at this place. He declined.

Times change. But people have to want them to, and they have to have the freedom to speak out.

Yes hangings were holidays for the working class. The famous story of a London hanging of several pickpockets which drew hundreds of spectators at Tyburn (the place of public execution in London - where Marble Arch now stands) , meanwhile other pickpockets were working the crowd.

49 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:00:33am

re: #38 negativ

Honest question: already-dead or not, have the Saudis ever actually crucified anyone in modern memory? That seems bizarre, even for them. I mean, not that beheading isn't, but jeez louise.

Also, I am genuinely interested in how they find people to serve the role of Official Mutilator. Are they conscripted? Volunteers? Is it considered a prestigious position, or just one of those things that someone has to do, like picking up the garbage?

Saudi Head-Chopper Discusses His Craft.

50 Buster  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:00:57am

Rape and double murder would (and should) earn the death penalty in this country. The method of execution is based on the culture. We prefer our executions not be bloody or gross; therefore, no beheading s, hangings, electrocutions, firing squads etc. for us. Our society has come to prefer a medical procedure that guarantees the murderer a clean painless death (unlike his/her victim).

If execution is to be a deterrent though, a good old public beheading or hanging has merits. The crucifixion is a bit over the top though. I would prefer the old British "head on a pike" post execution ritual.

51 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:03:24am

People who sit here shizzling on about "deterrence" should realize that psychopaths are not capable of thinking in such terms. Their cunning - a variable quality - serves to meet their sick needs and nothing else. Ted Bundy would have been Ted Bundy no matter what the promised torments.

But by all means, don't let that stop you from fantasizing about your personal town square and the instruments of torture and humiliation you'd like to see installed there. Just remember: that is the furniture of your mind.

Find it comfy?

52 Claire  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:03:49am

re: #34 rollwave87

What makes this an example of "mob rule/vigilante justice?" The article said he was convicted of the crime. What if he WAS the wrong guy? Good thing, I guess, he didn't live in a state in the US where he could be electricuted, lethally injected in front of an audience or Utah where he could've been put in front of a firing squad. Yeah, that's so much more civilized compared to a beheading. As far as the crucifixion, since he's dead already, I bet he didn't mind.

53 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:07:51am

re: #16 Pass The Moonbaticide

Crucify an already beheaded body ?

Gotta be certain, I suppose.

Well, considering the old English sentence for treason mostly. Hung, then drawn and quartered. If you were lucky, the hanging killed you.

54 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:08:59am

re: #52 Claire

What makes this an example of "mob rule/vigilante justice?" The article said he was convicted of the crime.

He was convicted of the crime in a country that's ruled by sharia law -- in which courts and trials have a very different meaning than they do in the United States. But don't let that stop you from wishing we could be more like them.

55 nyc redneck  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:09:54am

the r.o.p is a very brutal organization.
it seems founded on death and torture and subjugation.
we are not speaking their language, nor they ours.
as islam pushes the boundaries everywhere to dominate.

56 Claire  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:09:59am

re: #51 Cato the Elder

It becomes a matter of degree, does it not? So much better to kill them in semi-private "dignified" circumstances like the stupid ritual of last meals and calls from the governor and reporters witnessing it. At least we don't have to be exposed to it as we drive to the mall. So icky and all that. It's OK to do it, I just don't want to have to see it.

And how exactly is it torture if he's already dead?

57 MacDuff  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:11:08am

re: #50 Buster

So, crucifixion is "over the top" and "head on a pike" is not? Get a grip.

58 Claire  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:11:27am

re: #54 Charles

I don't want to be more like them, but I do hold the opinion that deterrence works.

He killed a boy and his father. He would very liekly be put to death in the United States as well.

59 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:12:41am

re: #56 Claire

Enjoy being you?

60 Claire  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:13:51am

re: #57 MacDuff

Haven't you guys ever heard the word hyperbole?

61 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:18:24am

The Saudis have had our government by the ***** for almost 70 years. Our state department and government agencies will not say a word.

62 bcgirl  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:19:09am

It is amazing that they even had a trial, if the young boy had been a young girl, it would not have been a rape at all, Sharia law, yes oh that is what i want in the US-- NOT ---

63 quickjustice  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:19:20am

They crucified him after beheading him? Where's the sadistic pleasure in that? The Saudi authorities nailed him on his boards!

64 Buster  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:20:36am

re: #60 Claire

She gets it! Thanks.

65 Toonman  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:22:32am

re: #50 Buster

I thought the "head on a pike" routine was performed just outside of the town limits to warn newcomers. The display wasn't really for the people of the town so much...

I agree that his crime deserved capital punishment, but I would think that just beheading him would have been a pretty brutal display for the public. The crucifixion is way over the top.

I'm not condoning the beheading. Just saying that the beheading pretty much gets the point across the first time. If you want to display the body, do it like the Brits did with the pirates: Hang 'em at the outskirts of town, and leave the bodies for everyone to see. It is still visible, but not nearly as brutal and bloody.

66 MacDuff  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:22:51am

re: #60 Claire

Haven't you guys ever heard the word hyperbole?

Yes, thank you, I'm fairly well versed in the English language. Hyperbole is generally not part of a civilized discussion, which is what I though we were having.

By the way, are you familiar with the word condescension? Well, of course you are.

67 realwest  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:25:32am

re: #21 seagreenroom
That is a truly repellent and disgusting comment and NOT WORTHY OF STAYING ON LGF IMO.

68 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:27:26am

Strictly speaking, this is somewhat unIslamic. Sura Five calls for exiling, or executing (by which I suspect is meant beheading), _or_ crucifying (which, again, I suspect means really _crucifying_) a certain class of people, those who bring disorder to the world, fight against God or his prophet, etc. Note that's executing or crucifying, not executing _and_ crucifying. So they should have chopped off the bugger's head _or_ nailed or tied him to a cross and left him until he died.

One suspects they're trying to meet the strictures of the Koran while avoiding the world's condemnation. I'm not sure God or Mohammad would approve.

Just for general info, the Saudis typically (I think always) dope the condemned to the gills with hashish before he is executed, which is pretty humane. Also, just for general info, one can get a fair trial in Saudi Arabia if you're a Saudi or well connected with well connected Saudis who want to help. If you're a foreigner, or a woman who's family has turned their backs on you, you're probably pretty much screwed.

69 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:28:11am

There was a time when I could post an article like this, and people wouldn't applaud the Saudis for publicly butchering people and displaying the bodies.

This is why I hesitate about these articles now -- because I know when I do post an article about Saudi beheadings, people will show up and thoughtlessly say, "Yeah! That's what we should do too!"

I don't want to live in a country that beheads people in public. Those of you who applaud this kind of thing should ask yourselves whether that's the country you want to live in -- because Saudi Arabia is beckoning you if it is.

70 realwest  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:38:14am

re: #69 Charles
With all due respect Charles, I'm not convinced that the people who show up to applaud this are simply thoughtless and it wouldn't bother me AT ALL if you were to delete those posts; they certainly don't make LGF look good.

71 debutaunt  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:39:17am

re: #69 Charles

There was a time when I could post an article like this, and people wouldn't applaud the Saudis for publicly butchering people and displaying the bodies.

This is why I hesitate about these articles now -- because I know when I do post an article about Saudi beheadings, people will show up and thoughtlessly say, "Yeah! That's what we should do too!"

I don't want to live in a country that beheads people in public. Those of you who applaud this kind of thing should ask yourselves whether that's the country you want to live in -- because Saudi Arabia is beckoning you if it is.

We could fund the travel cost with a paypal acccount.

72 debutaunt  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:39:54am

re: #71 debutaunt

Oh geez, I stuttered.

73 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:41:11am

re: #62 bcgirl

It is amazing that they even had a trial, if the young boy had been a young girl, it would not have been a rape at all, Sharia law, yes oh that is what i want in the US-- NOT ---

Not strictly true. The rules for women (which is, admittedly defined down there; girls become "women" quite young by our lights) are not the same as the rules for very young girls. Women who claim rape and are then found guilty of adultery, which happens, almost invariably broke one of the rules on who they can be alone with. This tends to make the typical Sharia judge - who probably has a very low opinion of women, anyway - assume she _intended_ to break the rule on who she can be alone with, so probably intended to break the rule on adultery or fornication. That's unreasonable and barbaric by our lights, but pretty consistent in Sharia law. It would be fairly hard to rape a woman who is following the rules on who she can be alone with.

Note: this leaves aside the entire question of the Third Country Nationals, many of them female, who form the domestic staffs in Saudi households. Some Saudis seem to think that they fall into the category of "those held under your right hand," which is to say, slaves, and are thus accessible and permitted and have no right of refusal. Other Saudis do not think so. Young Saudi men, of course, like most young men anywhere, simply don't think at all.

74 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:41:20am

This is an honest question for Lizards of the Christian faith. And since I'm an "Old Testament" guy, I truly am wondering about this.

Is there any sort of an Anti Christian element in the act of crucifixion when performed by muslims? Is this some attempt to make the criminal somehow appear less muslim and more Christian by hanging him on a cross?

75 wrenchwench  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:41:32am

re: #72 debutaunt

Oh geez, I stuttered.

You just ccouldn't cccount.

76 ryannon  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:42:08am

re: #51 Cato the Elder

People who sit here shizzling on about "deterrence" should realize that psychopaths are not capable of thinking in such terms. Their cunning - a variable quality - serves to meet their sick needs and nothing else. Ted Bundy would have been Ted Bundy no matter what the promised torments.

But by all means, don't let that stop you from fantasizing about your personal town square and the instruments of torture and humiliation you'd like to see installed there. Just remember: that is the furniture of your mind.

Find it comfy?

Brilliant, and so to the point.

/absolutely no sarcasm intended here.

77 Lynn B.  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:43:53am

re: #67 realwest

re: #70 realwest

Enough. It's been taken care of.

78 Sand Panda  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:44:01am

While we're overhauling the justice system, why don't we start executing women in local football stadiums? It would be cheap half-time entertainment and it would deter any women tempted to immorally pursue an education. Oh, wait a minute...

What is the matter with people?

79 Annar  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:44:02am

Ever since Muhammad set the example of child abuse by doing a nine year old girl, it has been an ongoing problem in the Islamic world. Young fresh immortal boys are part of the (male) believers reward in the after life. See Qur'an 52:24, 56:17 and 76:16 for example. Some, like the now headless Saudi 'example' just can't wait.

80 MacDuff  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:44:35am

Well, as much as I've "enjoyed" this enlightening roundtable of sadism and reminiscence regarding medieval execution techniques, it's become a little much for me. "Hyperbole" notwithstanding, I have to wonder how some could find some of these comments even remotely intellectual or enjoyable.

The Saudis are savages, their methods are sadistic and their legal system is Sharia for God's sake!

I'm going to enjoy my Saturday afternoon.

81 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:45:24am

re: #55 nyc redneck

They seem stuck in about 622 CE. They will never be a light unto the nations...

82 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:47:59am

re: #69 Charles

Charles:

Something odd I noticed before and during the First Gulf War; an absolutely _amazing_ percentage - large enough that I was prompted to actively enquire of individuals - of Americans I served with, at least _contemplated_ converting / reverting (yes, men and even some women, both) and on precisely this issue: The Saudis executed their serious criminals quickly and publically, and most of the troops thought that was just fine.

83 samsgran1948  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:48:59am

My neck of the woods is experiencing a true horror. Last week a man raped, sodomized and killed a three-year-old girl in the middle of the night. He attacked the child in the middle of the night while her parents slept in a different room. The girl's five-year-old brother witnessed part of the attack and was able to identify the attacker -- a man the parents had allowed to sleep on their sofa for a couple of weeks while he saved up enough money to rent his own place. He had moved out but broke in through the child's bedroom window. (The kicker? Apparently, the guy's an illegal alien.)

Personally, I think the sucker should fry.

Cato the Elder points out:

People who sit here shizzling on about "deterrence" should realize that psychopaths are not capable of thinking in such terms. Their cunning - a variable quality - serves to meet their sick needs and nothing else. Ted Bundy would have been Ted Bundy no matter what the promised torments.

Cato's got a good point. Psychopaths don't think like the rest of us. But executing the guy would ensure that he at least never, ever repeated his crime.

84 [deleted]  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:50:47am
85 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:51:13am

re: #74 _RememberTonyC

re: #74 _RememberTonyC

This is an honest question for Lizards of the Christian faith. And since I'm an "Old Testament" guy, I truly am wondering about this.

Is there any sort of an Anti Christian element in the act of crucifixion when performed by muslims? Is this some attempt to make the criminal somehow appear less muslim and more Christian by hanging him on a cross?

No, not a bit of it, in inception, way back when Christians hadn't become "the enemy." That said, they did seem to employ it in Spain as a specifically anti-Christian means of terrorizing the largely Christian conquered populace.

86 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:53:45am

re: #21 seagreenroom

Charles: now that's good advertising. Let that be a lesson to the rest.

87 ryannon  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:53:47am

re: #82 Tom Kratman

Charles:

Something odd I noticed before and during the First Gulf War; an absolutely _amazing_ percentage - large enough that I was prompted to actively enquire of individuals - of Americans I served with, at least _contemplated_ converting / reverting (yes, men and even some women, both) and on precisely this issue: The Saudis executed their serious criminals quickly and publically, and most of the troops thought that was just fine.

Did I read you right?

Some of the American military contemplated converting to Islam because 'the Saudis executed their serious criminals quickly and publically'?

I'm trying hard to connect the dots but I still don't see the picture....

88 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:55:13am

re: #85 Tom Kratman

thank you

89 Sand Panda  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:56:38am

re: #82 Tom Kratman

Charles:

Something odd I noticed before and during the First Gulf War; an absolutely _amazing_ percentage - large enough that I was prompted to actively enquire of individuals - of Americans I served with, at least _contemplated_ converting / reverting (yes, men and even some women, both) and on precisely this issue: The Saudis executed their serious criminals quickly and publically, and most of the troops thought that was just fine.

The First Gulf War took place almost two decades ago; just think how much general attitudes have changed since that time. For example, current support for the death penalty, although still the majority position (if I remember correctly) is at its lowest for thirty years. Secondly, it's possible that being in a combat situation temporarily skewed their perspective.

90 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:57:02am

by the way, look at what that tool john kerry told a reporter for the saudi newspaper:

[Link: www.daralhayat.com...]

what a loathsome prick he is

91 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:58:01am

That's enough.

Comments applauding the Saudis for this are going to be deleted, and accounts are going to be blocked. I've deleted three comments already. Any more in this vein will cause accounts to be blocked.

I'm not going to stand for this at LGF.

92 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:59:36am

re: #87 ryannon

Did I read you right?

Some of the American military contemplated converting to Islam because 'the Saudis executed their serious criminals quickly and publically'?

I'm trying hard to connect the dots but I still don't see the picture....

You read it right. Yes, they approved of quick trials and public executions and that, with the fact that Saudi society appears generally pretty well ordered and reasonably prosperous - if you're a Saudi, rather than a TCN - was enough to make them think about it. Note, my unit was kind of...mmmm...special, and specifically tasked with close dealings with the Saudis in their towns, offices, and homes. I can't vouch for rifleman X in 2/7 Infantry who never got closer to a Saudi than seeing them wave as he passed by in his Bradley.

93 haakondahl  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:01:18am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Now if only those countries had some contiguous borders all in one spot, we'd be in business.

Be careful what you wish for.

94 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:03:09am

re: #90 _RememberTonyC

by the way, look at what that tool john kerry told a reporter for the saudi newspaper:

[Link: www.daralhayat.com...]

what a loathsome prick he is

As disappointing as Bush was in his 2nd term, I am still glad he defeated Kerry.

95 Sand Panda  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:03:34am

Oh dear, it seems that this thread has all the vitality of the average Saudi convict...

Bye all.

96 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:04:45am

re: #89 Sand Panda

The First Gulf War took place almost two decades ago; just think how much general attitudes have changed since that time. For example, current support for the death penalty, although still the majority position (if I remember correctly) is at its lowest for thirty years. Secondly, it's possible that being in a combat situation temporarily skewed their perspective.

I'm certain they've changed. And actual conversions, as opposed to just contemplating it, were small then and now, both. For one thing, our official enemy is Islamic. For another, we are not operating in prosperous and fairly neat Saudi Arabia but in...well...a couple of hell holes. That said, though, I am _very_ sure that most of our troops approve of quick trials and public executions. That won't have changed. Who do you think mostly forms the Army and Marines and how do you imagine their beliefs and values might differ from the national mean?

I don't think impending combat then had the slightest bearing.

97 ryannon  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:05:26am

re: #92 Tom Kratman

You read it right. Yes, they approved of quick trials and public executions and that, with the fact that Saudi society appears generally pretty well ordered and reasonably prosperous - if you're a Saudi, rather than a TCN - was enough to make them think about it. Note, my unit was kind of...mmmm...special, and specifically tasked with close dealings with the Saudis in their towns, offices, and homes. I can't vouch for rifleman X in 2/7 Infantry who never got closer to a Saudi than seeing them wave as he passed by in his Bradley.

I think I see what you mean - and yes, Saudi society must seem pretty well-ordered and appealing, from a certain point of view.

On the other hand, how many of those guys actually converted?

On another level, it's sort of like wanting to become a bonze because you look good in orange... :-)

98 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:07:43am

And meanwhile, in the midst of this barbarism, we have one tiny country, Israel....still fighting to exist after 61 years.

Youtube Video
99 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:08:20am

re: #94 Joel

As disappointing as Bush was in his 2nd term, I am still glad he defeated Kerry.

agree 100% ...

100 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:10:18am

OT ... But just a little something to lift the morale of the sane Republicans/Conservatives out there:

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

Some good (and surprising) names in there

101 realwest  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:10:41am

re: #77 Lynn B.

re: #70 realwest

Enough. It's been taken care of.


Yes, but it hadn't been when I posted. Thank you.

102 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:11:41am

re: #97 ryannon

I think I see what you mean - and yes, Saudi society must seem pretty well-ordered and appealing, from a certain point of view.

On the other hand, how many of those guys actually converted?

On another level, it's sort of like wanting to become a bonze because you look good in orange... :-)

In my battalion? None. I think there might have been a couple across the half million troops we deployed. And even that might in part have been black troops changing from Nation of Islam to Sunni Islam.

I don't know if that analogy works, but it's funny.

103 haakondahl  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #96 Tom Kratman
Who do you think mostly forms the Army and Marines and how do you imagine their beliefs and values might differ from the national mean?
I don't think impending combat then had the slightest bearing.

Make your point. You have no tenure here.

104 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:13:28am

re: #98 NY Nana

And meanwhile, in the midst of this barbarism, we have one tiny country, Israel....still fighting to exist after 61 years.


[Video]

and Obama 's administration just turned down their requests for Apache Longbow helicopters and F15SE fighters according to reports which I hope are wrong. This is the most non sympathetic to Israel administration from top to bottom since Eisenhower. BHO has surrounded himself with Israel haters all his life so I should not be surprised.

105 haakondahl  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:14:06am

Correction:

re: #96 Tom Kratman

Who do you think mostly forms the Army and Marines and how do you imagine their beliefs and values might differ from the national mean?
I don't think impending combat then had the slightest bearing.

Make your point. You have no tenure here.

106 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:14:37am

re: #99 _RememberTonyC

agree 100% ...

Although if Kerry had won then BHO would not be POTUS today but yes I am glad kerry lost. Is your moniker a tribute to Tony Conigliaro?

107 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:17:04am

re: #103 haakondahl

Who do you think mostly forms the Army and Marines and how do you imagine their beliefs and values might differ from the national mean?
I don't think impending combat then had the slightest bearing.

Make your point. You have no tenure here.

And who are you to say so? Define "tenure." When did you join? Let's see, you joined two years before me. What specific rights do you think that gives you? Are you feeling foolish yet?

108 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:19:15am

re: #105 haakondahl

Correction:


Make your point. You have no tenure here.

And, while we're on the subject of tenure, how much time do you have in the armed forces? What were your MOS's? Do you have any tenure there to support the point you haven't really made?

Me? 32 years. Army. Infantry. Ranger. That stuff.

109 Wild Knight  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:19:51am

One of the best points raised in this thread so far is the one by Charles at 54. Point is not whether execution for certain crimes is right or wrong. Many people support capital punishment for certain types of crimes. I do. There are some crimes which are extreme enough to warrant the extreme penalty. The issue, however, is with the method by which the accused is tried. When you're being tried for your life, you'd better damn well hope that you are undergoing the fairest trial possible. Civilised countries offer a system which, though it can make mistakes, is the fairest of all historical alternatives. This person was tried and found guilty by Sharia Law. Doesn't make me feel very confident that he had the opportunity to make the best defence he could. Even the inquisition with its plurality of lawyers, legal procedures, witnesses both for and against AND defence lawyers was a good deal fairer than Sharia Law - and that IS saying something. And as for the method of execution... Well, capital punishment IS the extreme penalty. Anything beyond that is purely barbaric and revolting punto e basta. These are the two reasons why the story is so horrifying. The issue of whether he deserved it or not is a red herring. You and I will never for sure given that all the data we have is derived from reports on the outcome of a trial by Sharia Law. Stories like these ought to make us thank heaven that we live in civilised countries not to commend these stone-age barbarians for a system of justice which would have made the Greeks, Romans and Mediaeval Church throw their hands up in horror.

110 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:20:17am

re: #104 Joel

When I saw the spinoff, all I could post on it was [deleted].

/OTOH, it spared me from having the Secret Service here to question me.

Were you even the tiniest bit surprised? Hussein and Shrillary must be kvelling. Colin Powell was probably their advisor. Whoops! Forgot Jimmy the Jew hater.

111 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:20:23am

re: #108 Tom Kratman

Is it true that US soldiers deployed in Saudi Arabia were told not to display crosses on their necks or to have Bibles?

112 suntory_boss  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:21:25am

I'm opposed to the death penalty here and there. It doesn't matter how you kill someone, they are deprived of their life, the state is playing "God" etc. The end result is still death. We, a nation that has the death penalty, shouldn't be criticizing other nations that have it as well. If We got rid of it, then we could point out the barbarity of the death penalty

113 Danny  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:25:42am

What they won't tell you is that the executioner teabagged the head, too.

114 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:25:50am

re: #110 NY Nana

When I saw the spinoff, all I could post on it was [deleted].

/OTOH, it spared me from having the Secret Service here to question me.

Were you even the tiniest bit surprised? Hussein and Shrillary must be kvelling. Colin Powell was probably their advisor. Whoops! Forgot Jimmy the Jew hater.

I suspect that Samantha Power and Zbigniew Breszinski (sic) are calling the shots at State and that Hillary and Bill have become marginalized. The attempt to appoint rabid anti Israel Chas Freeman to such a sensitive post would have been an eye opener to those concerned about the legitimate existential threat the Jewish nation is under. Even when Netanyahu was here, Obama could not even fake a smile of friendship. The free world is going to be involved in such dangerous times. even though I cared not a whit for McCain at lest I knew that he was sympathetic towards Israel's plight (and if Rudy had been in his cabinet, so much the better!), yet this is the guy who won so we have to deal with it. Too bad so many elderly foolish Jews in Florida bought into the charismatic charlatan's nonsense.

115 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:27:54am

re: #112 suntory_boss

I'm opposed to the death penalty here and there. It doesn't matter how you kill someone, they are deprived of their life, the state is playing "God" etc. The end result is still death. We, a nation that has the death penalty, shouldn't be criticizing other nations that have it as well. If We got rid of it, then we could point out the barbarity of the death penalty

You have a point but then again I can point out the barbarity of some of these criminals who were executed

[Link: off2dr.com...]

116 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:31:45am

re: #111 Joel

Is it true that US soldiers deployed in Saudi Arabia were told not to display crosses on their necks or to have Bibles?

That was kind of an oddity. There was no problem with having a bible or missal, indeed, they were printed and bound in desert tan for distribution. I still have mine, somewhere. I saw Christian chaplains, in certain places, with their branch insignia, and other chaplains, one, anyway, possibly Jewish, without. There was talk of not wearing a cross on your neck but I can't think of anytime it was enforced. And the Saudis generally went out of their way to avoid seeing anything that might have required them to act in ways that the guys with the tanks and such wouldn't like.

About the only real annoyance was that female troops couldn't run around in T-shirts, but that was ignored outside the Saudi-controlled towns and cities and, again, the Saudis turned a blind eye. I know it's hard for Americans to accept, but their government really went about as far as it could to accomodate us while not causing a revolution against themselves.

117 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:32:47am

re: #116 Tom Kratman

Thanks for your response.

118 Salamantis  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:33:10am

I am in favor of the death penalty for particularly heinous crimes. Sometimes, as in the cases of a Bundy, a Dahmer, a Gacy, a Chikatillo, a McVeigh, or a Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, nothing less will do. Such people can never be rehabilitated, and remain a danger and an expensive encumbramce for as long as they live in detention. Plus, I do consider the death penalty to have a deterrent effect - not upon all, but upon some. And it's damn certain that executed murderers will never themselves kill again.

However, one's motivation should be justice, not vengeance. They shouldmn't be tortured, however sick fantasies of, for instance, breaking every bone in their bodies and injecting them with something to throw them into convulsions, might creep into the seamy underbellies of our psyches. This is why I prefer the lethal injection method. Just put them painlessly and permanently to sleep like the vicious dogs they are. It's not about them, after all; it's about dispensing justice, protecting ourselves, and preserving our human decency at the same time.

119 Buster  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #51 Cato the Elder

People who sit here shizzling on about "deterrence" should realize that psychopaths are not capable of thinking in such terms. Their cunning - a variable quality - serves to meet their sick needs and nothing else. Ted Bundy would have been Ted Bundy no matter what the promised torments.

But by all means, don't let that stop you from fantasizing about your personal town square and the instruments of torture and humiliation you'd like to see installed there. Just remember: that is the furniture of your mind.

Find it comfy?

"That rug really held the room together...did it not?"

The Dude

120 Randall Gross  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:42:07am

I am well pleased that I live in a country protected by a constitution. It's the eighth amendment that protects us from neo-barbarian crowd rule and cruel and unusual punishments. If you are lauding the Saudis for this then you are against our own constitution and Faux-Conservative.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

121 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:42:13am

re: #114 Joel

I agree with you. We forgot the Court Jew..Rahm Emanuel.

And funny you should mention Shrill & Bubba being marginalized...here is an article from yesterday on the very same subject.

Please do not get me started on the gormless Jews in FL...and remember there are still so many all over the country who had to learn a lesson the hard way. I know that people who were hypnotized by The One, and excoriating us, including our kids, now are very, very quiet, and never even mention his name, which for me is very telling.

And I am so fearful for Israel, and friends I have there. Beyond a doubt, it will be Israel who will have to bomb Iran in a pre-emptory strike, especially with North Korea now threatening the Far East.

BTW, I was disheartened to see Pres. Bush actually appeared with Bubba in Toronto last night.

122 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:42:27am

re: #106 Joel

Although if Kerry had won then BHO would not be POTUS today but yes I am glad kerry lost. Is your moniker a tribute to Tony Conigliaro?

yes it is ... the great Tony Conigliaro

but if kerry had won, we might still have gotten BHO in 2012

123 The Drizzle  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:47:18am

I honestly thought it was acceptable within most muslim cultures to have sex with boys anyway. I suspect only the murder of said boy and his father was the problem. I swear that I one time heard on a news report that the late Ayatollah of Iran released guidelines of acceptable sexual behavior, and sex with infants was acceptable; also sex with animals, as long as you didnt eat the animal, because it's meat would be "ruined". Sex with other men was absolutely acceptable, but of course some wacked-out rules followed about it. I have tried to google this, but I cannot find any info on it.

124 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:47:28am

re: #122 _RememberTonyC

yes it is ... the great Tony Conigliaro

but if kerry had won, we might still have gotten BHO in 2012


Are you a Bostonian, perchance, TonyC? Southie, for me.

125 theheat  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:49:46am

I would question the Saudi trials, themselves, that lead up to whatever form of execution they use. I don't imagine arguing in a court that relies on Sharia law is the same as the courts in most civilized countries in the world, nor is the burden of proof the same. I would assume many people have been executed in accordance to Sharia law that were innocent; the victims of cut-and-dried trials. (Look at the number of people in the US that were later found innocent by way of DNA, for example.)

Crucifying a dead body, sans head, is not the same as a live person. The act is all for the gore effect the Saudis seem to enjoy so much, but the fact is the person is already dead. The initial beheading is every bit as heinous, to me. To make it a public display is torture pron taken to the nth degree. It takes a sick bunch of f*cks to employ this as punishment or as a deterrent, after the fact.

Truly, the Saudis refuse to evolve. Fear, ignorance, and brutality rule the land.

And our presidents bow to them, kiss them, and invite them to dinner.

126 Mikky  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:50:33am

Uhhh...this is something I can't fully criticise them for...if the man is truly guilty of murder then he should deserve the death sentence. Though a beheading + crucifixion is a VERY strong reaction...

127 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:51:27am

re: #124 Tom Kratman

Are you a Bostonian, perchance, TonyC? Southie, for me.


native of brockton, MA but live in Connecticut now

128 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:51:48am

re: #123 The Drizzle

I honestly thought it was acceptable within most muslim cultures to have sex with boys anyway. I suspect only the murder of said boy and his father was the problem. I swear that I one time heard on a news report that the late Ayatollah of Iran released guidelines of acceptable sexual behavior, and sex with infants was acceptable; also sex with animals, as long as you didnt eat the animal, because it's meat would be "ruined". Sex with other men was absolutely acceptable, but of course some wacked-out rules followed about it. I have tried to google this, but I cannot find any info on it.

Accepted and acceptable are not exactly the same thing. Another one of those cases where Saudis _usually_ turn a blind eye. Among adolescents it's common enough to be considered sort of normal, but a man, at least once he gets a wife, is expected to refrain. The Iranians, on the other hand, don't seem to accept it, possiblymaybeperhaps because they permit "marriage for a fixed term," and thus allow sexual relations before the Saudis would. Iranians and Saudis, in any case, partially share a religion but their cultures are somewhat to considerably different.

129 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:53:13am

re: #127 _RememberTonyC

native of brockton, MA but live in Connecticut now

Had a girlfriend in Brockton when I was in high school.

130 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:53:59am

Yeah, it's a good thing that "straight shooter texan" bush really put Saudia Arabia in it's place!


/////////////////

131 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:55:35am

re: #129 Tom Kratman

Had a girlfriend in Brockton when I was in high school.


Brockton used to be a pretty decent place, but sadly has gone downhill since I graduated from high school back in the mid 1970s. Most of my friends from back in the day moved out to Easton or Foxboro. Do you still live in Southie? I was in town 2 weeks ago for game 7 of Magic/Celtics ... I still LOVE Boston.

132 ladycatnip  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:56:17am

OT

Charles,

Could we have a thread about Sotomayor's actual decisions and opinions? As much as I found her remarks about being a Latina offensive, it's far wiser to base opposition to her on what she's actually done.

Prime example - 2007 Ruling against a teen blogger for calling school officials douche bags on her blog - Sotomayor was part of a panel that ruled against an appeal in Doninger v. Niehoff. Because of her ruling, this student was no allowed to run for school office. This is a free speech issue.

We also have her written opinion in Hayden v. Pataki in 2006 (which I posted on another thread) - writing in favor of allowing prison felons the right to vote.

Based upon the above, I would certainly not want her confirmed as a supreme. Coupled with her "wrongfully worded" remarks, I find her to be too far on the left for sitting as SCOTUS.

133 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 30, 2009 11:58:00am

re: #132 ladycatnip

The constitution doesn't really exist within school grounds, that is a well established legal precedent.

134 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:02:11pm

re: #131 _RememberTonyC

I am from Brighton and Newton originally! Uh, I don't tahk funny anymore. ;)

135 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:03:49pm

re: #132 ladycatnip

I wish that I had at leat 1,000,000 up-dings to give you for that.

Thank you so much.

136 ladycatnip  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:08:07pm

#133 ihateronpaul

The constitution doesn't really exist within school grounds, that is a well established legal precedent.

This student's blog was offsite.

The article states:

Sotomayor joined two other judges from the 2nd Circuit in ruling that the student’s off-campus blog remarks created a “foreseeable risk of substantial disruption” at the student’s high school and that the teenager was not entitled to a preliminary injunction reversing a disciplinary action against her, Education Week reports...

The ruling in this case has come under heavy criticism from some civil libertarians . Some say this case presents a solid rationale for rejecting Judge Sonia Sotomayor of New York’s Second Circuit Court of Appeals to fill the seat of retiring Justice David Souter.

“The continual expansion of the authority of school officials over student speech teaches a foul lesson to these future citizens,” Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University, told the New Britain Herald. “I would prefer some obnoxious speech [rather] than teaching students that they must please government officials if they want special benefits or opportunities.”

137 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:17:39pm

re: #131 _RememberTonyC

Brockton used to be a pretty decent place, but sadly has gone downhill since I graduated from high school back in the mid 1970s. Most of my friends from back in the day moved out to Easton or Foxboro. Do you still live in Southie? I was in town 2 weeks ago for game 7 of Magic/Celtics ... I still LOVE Boston.

Nah, I defected from the PRM in 74 when I joined the Army. Went back to school, to BC, 78-80. Now I just go back for funerals or to bring one of the grandkids to get in touch with her roots.

138 rollwave87  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:30:07pm

re: #52 Claire

What makes this an example of "mob rule/vigilante justice?" The article said he was convicted of the crime. What if he WAS the wrong guy? Good thing, I guess, he didn't live in a state in the US where he could be electricuted, lethally injected in front of an audience or Utah where he could've been put in front of a firing squad. Yeah, that's so much more civilized compared to a beheading. As far as the crucifixion, since he's dead already, I bet he didn't mind.

sorry, like Charles said, I guess I was giving Saudi Arabia's criminal code too much credit by comparing it to mob rule/vigilanteism...the cowboys of the old west and Cossacks of Russia are probably offended and rolling over in their graves...

139 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:30:58pm

Obliquely on-topic:

Dallas County's TWENTIETH prisoner cleared on DNA evidence.

That guy lost 22 years out of his life on a bad conviction. At least he still has his head.

140 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:37:11pm

re: #134 NY Nana

I am from Brighton and Newton originally! Uh, I don't tahk funny anymore. ;)


Brighton ... Riley's Roast Beef!

141 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:38:05pm

re: #137 Tom Kratman

Nah, I defected from the PRM in 74 when I joined the Army. Went back to school, to BC, 78-80. Now I just go back for funerals or to bring one of the grandkids to get in touch with her roots.


we sound about the same age .... congrats on your escape!

142 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:40:06pm

re: #118 Salamantis

I am in favor of the death penalty for particularly heinous crimes. Sometimes, as in the cases of a Bundy, a Dahmer, a Gacy, a Chikatillo, a McVeigh, or a Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, nothing less will do. Such people can never be rehabilitated, and remain a danger and an expensive encumbramce for as long as they live in detention. Plus, I do consider the death penalty to have a deterrent effect - not upon all, but upon some. And it's damn certain that executed murderers will never themselves kill again.

However, one's motivation should be justice, not vengeance. They shouldmn't be tortured, however sick fantasies of, for instance, breaking every bone in their bodies and injecting them with something to throw them into convulsions, might creep into the seamy underbellies of our psyches. This is why I prefer the lethal injection method. Just put them painlessly and permanently to sleep like the vicious dogs they are. It's not about them, after all; it's about dispensing justice, protecting ourselves, and preserving our human decency at the same time.

We have a long history of changing methods of execution not for how painful they are but for how much they gross out the witnesses. Gas and electricity are in no way less painful than a properly done hanging, indeed they're more so. But occasionally a hanging produced a decapitation or what appeared to be a slow strangle. I say appeared because the Iranians practice suspension hangings, about as slow as one can get, and there the condemned appear to go limp in mere seconds. (Except for one woman I am aware of who, being lighter, took a couple of minutes. Just FYI, cutting off the blood supply to the brain seems to take effect well before strangulation can, in most cases.) The British study on the subject concluded that hanging was the most merciful form of execution of all those available, to include lethal injection. That last, by the way, depending on the sequence of drugs and type of drugs used, may cause and has caused the fully conscious victim to sufficate slowly. But it didn't upset the witnesses so that was all okay. Ahem.

143 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:45:18pm

re: #141 _RememberTonyC

we sound about the same age .... congrats on your escape!

Ah yes, memories....sneaking up to the wall, bright flaming books written by dead white males tracing arcs overhead...then the desperate leap to the barbed wire, cutting, carefully cutting, my way through...the tracker dogs howling and baying in the distance...

It was actually a nice state until a) the voting age was dropped to 18 and b) a Supreme Court decision overturned Massachusetts' residency requirements, which allowed half a million or so college students, most voting straight Marxist-Leninist ticket, to vote. It had been considered a liberal state before that, but wasn't really all that liberal. After, it became Moscow on the Charles.

And, yes, I resent the hell out of it. Bastards stole my state and, more importantly, my city.

144 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:48:02pm

re: #140 _RememberTonyC

Brighton ... Riley's Roast Beef!

Yipes! I am not even familiar with it. I was born in 1938, and we moved to Newton when I was 13. I haven't even been near Brighton in at least 20 or more years.

Brookline and Newton, yes. My parents zt"l are buried in Sharon.

Nearly all my cousins are scattered all over the place, mainly in Southern California.

And since we keep kosher....;)

I just Googled...it seems that they are all over the place in Taxachusetts.

145 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:53:29pm

re: #137 Tom Kratman

Ha! I defected in 1958! I met NY Grampa while I was in nurses' training in Brooklyn, where I met NY Grampa, in 1960. And literally the day after he graduated from CCNY, he was drafted into the army. He was in basic at Fort Dix, then sent to the now-defunct Boston Army Base. He was in for 2 years.We married, and our first son was an Army Brat.

We moved back to NY in '65, and have lived here ever since.

146 zelnaga  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:54:41pm

re: #69 Charles

There was a time when I could post an article like this, and people wouldn't applaud the Saudis for publicly butchering people and displaying the bodies.

Any ideas as to why it's changed? September 11th changed a lot of things, but I can't see how it'd have any effect on opinions regarding the treatment of murderers. The economic situation we find ourselves in now has changed quite a few things, as well, but again, I don't see what effect that would have on this.

So, really, I'm at a loss. Does anyone have more of a clue than I?

147 haakondahl  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:55:37pm

re: #107 Tom Kratman

And who are you to say so? Define "tenure." When did you join? Let's see, you joined two years before me. What specific rights do you think that gives you? Are you feeling foolish yet?

Nobody has tenure here, but I suspect that you do elsewhere.

I presume you had no point you wished to make yourself, then? Content rather to imply things and go on the attack when pressed to make a point? Yup. You're tenured.

148 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:55:48pm

re: #144 NY Nana

Yipes! I am not even familiar with it. I was born in 1938, and we moved to Newton when I was 13. I haven't even been near Brighton in at least 20 or more years.

Brookline and Newton, yes. My parents zt"l are buried in Sharon.

Nearly all my cousins are scattered all over the place, mainly in Southern California.

And since we keep kosher....;)

I just Googled...it seems that they are all over the place in Taxachusetts.


the first one was in Brighton ,,,, I used to go there in the late 1970s with the news photogs from WBZ that I was working with ... they must have done well for themselves!

149 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:57:50pm

re: #143 Tom Kratman

Ah yes, memories....sneaking up to the wall, bright flaming books written by dead white males tracing arcs overhead...then the desperate leap to the barbed wire, cutting, carefully cutting, my way through...the tracker dogs howling and baying in the distance...

It was actually a nice state until a) the voting age was dropped to 18 and b) a Supreme Court decision overturned Massachusetts' residency requirements, which allowed half a million or so college students, most voting straight Marxist-Leninist ticket, to vote. It had been considered a liberal state before that, but wasn't really all that liberal. After, it became Moscow on the Charles.

And, yes, I resent the hell out of it. Bastards stole my state and, more importantly, my city.

Connecticut is a nice alternative ... our Dems are a bit more sane. And when Chris Dodd runs next year, he faces a lot of angry Nutmeg State voters and could be in a real dogfight.
I hope he loses.

150 [deleted]  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:59:00pm
151 haakondahl  Sat, May 30, 2009 12:59:06pm

re: #146 zelnaga

Any ideas as to why it's changed? September 11th changed a lot of things, but I can't see how it'd have any effect on opinions regarding the treatment of murderers. The economic situation we find ourselves in now has changed quite a few things, as well, but again, I don't see what effect that would have on this.

So, really, I'm at a loss. Does anyone have more of a clue than I?

I think it has more to do with November 4, 2008. My party is sublimating.

152 haakondahl  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:01:22pm

re: #150 leereyno

That's going to cost you.

153 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:09:47pm

re: #148 _RememberTonyC

the first one was in Brighton ,,,, I used to go there in the late 1970s with the news photogs from WBZ that I was working with ... they must have done well for themselves!

I would say so! We must have driven by back then, but I have absolutely no memory of it.

I went to the Alexander Hamilton elementary school when I was a kid. I was happy to see it is still there after so many years when I Gooogled it a few weeks ago, as one of my granddaughters (9 years old) wanted to see where I went to school. She wants to go to see and be on the Swan Boats so badly..as does my almost-7 year old granddaughter. The kids will probably take them this summer. All 3 of my grandkids have the book 'Make Way for Ducklings', and we have a spare for when they are here.

154 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:11:15pm

re: #125 theheat

I would question the Saudi trials, themselves, that lead up to whatever form of execution they use. I don't imagine arguing in a court that relies on Sharia law is the same as the courts in most civilized countries in the world, nor is the burden of proof the same. I would assume many people have been executed in accordance to Sharia law that were innocent; the victims of cut-and-dried trials. (Look at the number of people in the US that were later found innocent by way of DNA, for example.)

Crucifying a dead body, sans head, is not the same as a live person. The act is all for the gore effect the Saudis seem to enjoy so much, but the fact is the person is already dead. The initial beheading is every bit as heinous, to me. To make it a public display is torture pron taken to the nth degree. It takes a sick bunch of f*cks to employ this as punishment or as a deterrent, after the fact.

Truly, the Saudis refuse to evolve. Fear, ignorance, and brutality rule the land.

And our presidents bow to them, kiss them, and invite them to dinner.

It's not quite as cut and dried as all that, and it does have some interesting features. There was a couple, TCNs, who had been found guilty of murdering the couple who employed them sometime in the mid-70s. The dead couple had a son, so the Saudi's waited until the boy had reached age 18 so he could legally forgive them and spare their lives if he was so inclined. He wasn't, of course, and they were duly chopped in late 90, early 91.

The most bizarre procedural thing to us is probaby the presumption of weight of witnesses, two women to equal one muslim man, for example, two Christians, too, I think. That's unfair, but it's not that great a hurdle to a woman or Christian in contract law; they merely need make sure when contracting verbally that they have the right number of witnesses.

In criminal law it is very difficult to prepare for a legal defense, of course. And that's what tends to catch raped women because they've never contemplated being raped and don't have another witness, usually, to support their word against the accused's, "she was asking for it." It gets worse, of course, because, since she has admitted to sex in some form, it doesn't necessarily require the usual number of witnesses to prove fornication or adultery. She admitted sex in her accusation of rape, and the accused has been found not guilty because of the weight of evidence, his word against hers, plus - usually - the highly suspcious circumstance of her being in a position to be alone with a man she is not allowed to be alone with.

I am often surprised how very rarely people in the west understand that this entire war is about the position of women, from the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (whose name escapes me at the moment) being appalled at a dance here, to ObL, now.

155 NY Nana  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:13:09pm

re: #149 _RememberTonyC

I hope he loses.

So do I! We are about 20 minutes away from Stamford, on the NY side.

156 haakondahl  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:18:16pm

re: #154 Tom Kratman

I am often surprised how very rarely people in the west understand that this entire war is about the position of women, from the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (whose name escapes me at the moment) being appalled at a dance here, to ObL, now.

Much to agree with in that last paragrpah. Are you thinking of Saeed Qutb?

157 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:19:20pm

re: #136 ladycatnip

Schools are still allowed to punish students for stuff outside of school. At my school kids that are arrested on drug offenses outside of school get a 5 day suspension.

158 Wishbone  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:21:30pm

re: #156 haakondahl

Qutb, indeed.

The flash of ankle beneath the hem was too much for the poor, little psychopath.

159 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:39:58pm

re: #121 NY Nana

President Bush appearing with Clinton in Toronto is no surprise. Bush was actually - despite his detractors- one of the most no partisan president's out there (and despite his faults), a true gentleman.

160 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:44:00pm

re: #122 _RememberTonyC

yes it is ... the great Tony Conigliaro

but if Kerry had won, we might still have gotten BHO in 2012

I remember when he was beaned by Fat Jack Hamilton in August 1967 - ultimately that beaning killed him. He came back and had one great season for the California Angels in 1970 but after that he was through. Even though it was an accident, I always hated the spitballer Fat Jack Hamilton (a former Met and Tiger).

161 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:47:26pm

re: #145 NY Nana

Ha! I defected in 1958! I met NY Grampa while I was in nurses' training in Brooklyn, where I met NY Grampa, in 1960. And literally the day after he graduated from CCNY, he was drafted into the army. He was in basic at Fort Dix, then sent to the now-defunct Boston Army Base. He was in for 2 years.We married, and our first son was an Army Brat.

We moved back to NY in '65, and have lived here ever since.

You remember the NYC of John Lindsay and then Abe Beame right? What a nightmare!

162 Former Belgian  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:50:34pm

re: #118 Salamantis

I am in favor of the death penalty for particularly heinous crimes. Sometimes, as in the cases of a Bundy, a Dahmer, a Gacy, a Chikatillo, a McVeigh, or a Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, nothing less will do. Such people can never be rehabilitated, and remain a danger and an expensive encumbramce for as long as they live in detention. Plus, I do consider the death penalty to have a deterrent effect - not upon all, but upon some. And it's damn certain that executed murderers will never themselves kill again.

However, one's motivation should be justice, not vengeance. They shouldmn't be tortured, however sick fantasies of, for instance, breaking every bone in their bodies and injecting them with something to throw them into convulsions, might creep into the seamy underbellies of our psyches. This is why I prefer the lethal injection method. Just put them painlessly and permanently to sleep like the vicious dogs they are. It's not about them, after all; it's about dispensing justice, protecting ourselves, and preserving our human decency at the same time.

I share your sentiments except for one thing --- lethal injection looks too much like a travesty of a medical procedure for my taste.

This aside from the obvious point that the standard of proof for a death penalty should be such as to basically limit it to cases where guilt is established beyond doubt full stop (not just "beyond reasonable doubt").

163 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:51:18pm

re: #155 NY Nana

So do I! We are about 20 minutes away from Stamford, on the NY side.


you sound like a very cool Nana :)

164 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:52:03pm

re: #160 Joel

I remember when he was beaned by Fat Jack Hamilton in August 1967 - ultimately that beaning killed him. He came back and had one great season for the California Angels in 1970 but after that he was through. Even though it was an accident, I always hated the spitballer Fat Jack Hamilton (a former Met and Tiger).


hamilton died a few years ago and had major remorse over beaning Tony C ... he admitted it was a spitball.

165 Ateam  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:53:55pm

Crucifixion is an ancient method of painful execution in which the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (of various shapes) and left to hang until dead. The term comes from the Latin crucifixio, fixed to a cross, from prefix cruci-, cross, + verb ficere, fix or do[1].

Crucifixion was in use particularly among the Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD, when in the year 337 Emperor Constantine I abolished it in his empire, out of veneration for Jesus Christ, the most famous victim of crucifixion.[2][3] It has sometimes been used even in modern times.

A crucifix (an image of Christ crucified on a cross) is the main religious symbol for Catholic Christians , but most Protestant Christians prefer to use a cross without the figure (the "corpus" - Latin for "body") of Christ. The term crucifix derives from the Latin crucifixus or cruci fixus, itself the past participle passive of crucifigere or cruci figere, "crucify", "fix to a cross."[4]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But, off course, we joooosss r to blame. Including J.C. himself being one of us...
Ha, Irony, History, Pop, Catholic-church, Saudi Arabia - Fuck them all!

166 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 1:59:47pm

re: #165 Ateam

All those images of Jesus on the cross so familiar to us from paintings or movies are actually false. Nails or tapered spikes were driven through the wrists and ankle bones was the correct way ( I saw the bones of a crucifed man from the Israel Museum in Jeruslaem) and the cross was actually small and more in the shape of a "T" then a "+". The preliminary scourging with leather whips (called a flagrum) in which pieces of sheep bone and small iron balls were attached and which massicated the back was enough to kill you from shock an dloss of blood.

167 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 2:02:19pm

re: #164 _RememberTonyC

hamilton died a few years ago and had major remorse over beaning Tony C ... he admitted it was a spitball.

I am glad he had remorse (Obviously there is no reason for him not having remorse) but I never forgave him. I saw Hamilton in 1966 pitch a one hitter when he was with the Mets against St. Louis and the Cardinals pitcher (Ray Sadecki) was the one who got the hit. The Mets have never had a pitcher throw a no hitter in the 47 years of existence, they have had 39 one hitters.

168 Ateam  Sat, May 30, 2009 2:15:44pm

re: #166 Joel

All those images of Jesus on the cross so familiar to us from paintings or movies are actually false. Nails or tapered spikes were driven through the wrists and ankle bones was the correct way ( I saw the bones of a crucifed man from the Israel Museum in Jeruslaem) and the cross was actually small and more in the shape of a "T" then a "+". The preliminary scourging with leather whips (called a flagrum) in which pieces of sheep bone and small iron balls were attached and which massicated the back was enough to kill you from shock an dloss of blood.

You r right
The shape was like T, not the cross looking more as +
Never mind - facts took slightly places in religions practice
[Ateam worship God Almighty's mysteries ways]

169 Wild Knight  Sat, May 30, 2009 2:20:26pm

re: #166 Joel

All those images of Jesus on the cross so familiar to us from paintings or movies are actually false. Nails or tapered spikes were driven through the wrists and ankle bones was the correct way ( I saw the bones of a crucifed man from the Israel Museum in Jeruslaem) and the cross was actually small and more in the shape of a "T" then a "+". The preliminary scourging with leather whips (called a flagrum) in which pieces of sheep bone and small iron balls were attached and which massicated the back was enough to kill you from shock an dloss of blood.

There were plenty of different configurations. The Romans were nothing if not inventive about these things. Josephus relates that during the siege of Jerusalem, Vespasian's troops amused themselves crucifying Jews on various oddly shaped crosses, including one, which, if I understand the text correctly, seems to have looked a lot like a swastika. Sorry, no references.

170 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 30, 2009 2:45:22pm

re: #167 Joel

I am glad he had remorse (Obviously there is no reason for him not having remorse) but I never forgave him. I saw Hamilton in 1966 pitch a one hitter when he was with the Mets against St. Louis and the Cardinals pitcher (Ray Sadecki) was the one who got the hit. The Mets have never had a pitcher throw a no hitter in the 47 years of existence, they have had 39 one hitters.

It's weird ... Tom Seaver threw one for the Reds and Doc Gooden threw one for the Yankees. The two best starters in NYM history had to change teams before throwing their masterpieces!

171 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 2:51:13pm

re: #170 _RememberTonyC

Also former Met Mike Scott threw one for Houston against the Giants.
Of course Nolan Ryan threw 7 after he was traded from the Mets.

172 nobomanohow  Sat, May 30, 2009 2:55:04pm

Oh my Lord! This is just beyond the pale. Leave it to the Islamists of KSA to display all the ugliness that is Orthodox Islam. Oy!

173 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 2:55:31pm

re: #169 Wild Knight

Yes it all depended on how much time and how much sadism the execution squad had. If they were crucifying 6,000 rebels from Spartacus's army, the chances are that with so many to execute they just strung them up with ropes to crosses or tree trunks. Those rebels were left hanging on crosses for years until their bodies deteriorated or were eaten by dogs and carrion. The Romans refined the practice but they did not invent it - the Carthaginians or Persians did.

174 CTUCandyVendor  Sat, May 30, 2009 3:56:08pm

Wild Knight is right on target. That said, I think that people applauding either the method or the public display are reacting more to a sense of disgust to the crime, in a 'safe' forum to vent that disgust. I have to believe most people that support such an idea of public punishment or display, would change their minds very quickly if they actually had to come face to face with in in reality and not just the concept on some blog. I for one cannot imagine finding any satisfaction in such a display unless I was related to the victim and still held such a massive pain and sense of justice denied (that could never be commensurate with that pain). Further more, I cannot imagine trying to hide my own child's view from such a sight, or dealing with the horror placed into their minds as they witness it. I think before people start clapping for public capitol punishment demonstrations, they should picture such a sight in the middle of a shopping mall, and witnessing it with their 5 year old by their side. I am sickened by pedophiles, murderers, etc. I can see the temptation to weigh in with a whistle and a "woot woot!" but folks may want to think twice about what they wish for, promote, endorse, etc.

175 Claire  Sat, May 30, 2009 5:33:50pm

re: #174 CTUCandyVendor

You have it right- it is venting and disgust for the crime. If it were about an adulterer or a maid that stole or similar like we've seen for years from the idiotic Saudis the outrage would be forthcoming just like it always has been.

How this disgust today though, gets mutated as if it were some kind of wholesale endorsement of the entire Shariah legal code (as if) or has something to do with who is president is what's just weird and I don't think that is reality at all, or fair actually.

176 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 30, 2009 6:25:13pm

What I think isn't fair: people who take advantage of their LGF accounts to post comments that will be used to smear the entire site. And when you approve of Saudi barbarism, even if you're just "venting," that's what you're doing.

177 Zimriel  Sat, May 30, 2009 6:25:22pm

re: #8 Summer

I really don't care if they execute child molesters and murderers. For what this guy did, he definitely deserved the ultimate punishment. That being said, the method of execution is pretty grotesque.


A bit like the punishment of the damned in Hell, in other words.

That seems to describe the Saudi regime about right. I do pity the poor souls lost in that abyss who don't deserve it.

178 Zimriel  Sat, May 30, 2009 6:29:04pm

re: #173 Joel

Yes it all depended on how much time and how much sadism the execution squad had. If they were crucifying 6,000 rebels from Spartacus's army, the chances are that with so many to execute they just strung them up with ropes to crosses or tree trunks. Those rebels were left hanging on crosses for years until their bodies deteriorated or were eaten by dogs and carrion. The Romans refined the practice but they did not invent it - the Carthaginians or Persians did.

The Shari'a punishment is probably Biblical in inspiration (like many others). This was how King David (a prophet in Islam) dealt with his enemies. c.f., 2 Samuel 4:12.

That the hanging should be a crucifixion was, I agree, probably initially Persian.

179 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 30, 2009 6:29:18pm

re: #174 CTUCandyVendor

That said, I think that people applauding either the method or the public display are reacting more to a sense of disgust to the crime, in a 'safe' forum to vent that disgust.

This is NOT a "safe" forum in which to approve of Saudi barbarism. Almost 2 million people read these comments every month. Everything you post here is very, very public.

180 AMER1CAN  Sat, May 30, 2009 7:02:34pm

We must be careful not to loose our civility and own human dignity when dealing with these animals. It's not always easy, but we must show some leadership on how to humanly deal with these monsters. We must lead, not follow.

181 CTUCandyVendor  Sat, May 30, 2009 7:28:22pm

re: #179 Charles

This is NOT a "safe" forum in which to approve of Saudi barbarism. Almost 2 million people read these comments every month. Everything you post here is very, very public.

Exactly. My point was that it feels safe from the poster pov, even if it is not safe for LGF's reputation. I actually think some of the commentary that comes out of the debate is much more interesting then everyone singing in chorus together (even on topics that seem pretty cut and dry such as this one). Of course, the open debate from such posters means the risk of having it aired on the msm, or competing blogs. I guess that is the balance you have to find, and the line in the sand you have to decide on where to draw to try and allow for both open and interesting debate, while protecting the reputation of your good name and that of the site. Lot's of people waiting to snip out user comments. That is the reality that also has to be dealt with, sadly enough. I don't post much, but I enjoy the this site. Thanks by the way, for letting me weigh in and participate!

182 Claire  Sat, May 30, 2009 7:33:13pm

re: #179 Charles

I hope nobody uses a comment of mine to ever smear your site or you. If they did and I found out about it I would do my best to rectify it with the asshole in charge. I don't want to live in a world where anybody would think that LGF could in any way be defending Saudi barbarism in any form given the long and short history of this blog. That's just beyond bizarre. Or if they had any credibility if they tried. I have to think normal people understand what is going on.

183 Joel  Sat, May 30, 2009 7:58:37pm

re: #178 Zimriel

King David could be pretty cruel and merciless. Not one of my favorite Old Testament figures.

184 BLBfootballs  Sat, May 30, 2009 8:20:26pm

I have no problem with the death penalty for somebody guilty of such an evil crime. The "crucifixion" element just baffles me. It's interesting to me that the authorities seem to believe this crime needs an extra element of deterrence above "simple" execution of the murderer.

185 Tom Kratman  Sat, May 30, 2009 9:08:43pm

re: #184 BLBfootballs

I have no problem with the death penalty for somebody guilty of such an evil crime. The "crucifixion" element just baffles me. It's interesting to me that the authorities seem to believe this crime needs an extra element of deterrence above "simple" execution of the murderer.

The way they did it, simply displaying the body after death, was surely gratuitous. I rather doubt that too many people would have been happier if they'd nailed the guy up alive, though quite possibly the widow/mother would have been. As mentioned above, I suspect it was because they were stuck between the strictures of the Koran and world opinion and, so to speak, compromised. They _can_ be morally ingenious, sometimes (see, eg, the alleged Iranian practice of raping virgin girls before execution to ensure they don't go to Paradise, as if God would be fooled by such a low, cheap trick).

186 el polacko  Sat, May 30, 2009 10:58:42pm

are we sure that these were not just trumped up charges ? it wouldn't be the first time that charges of molestation and murder were made to justify the barbaric execution of someone who was thought to be gay.. or in this case had 'pornographic images' (which could mean something very different there.)
of course, even should the charges be true, this is not the way a civilized country acts. will barack have anything to say to them about this kind of behavior or will he just sip tea with them and kiss their rings ?

187 Aisha  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:05:24am

Sallaams, kufr!

Oh how ignorant the kafir are!

It was common in England, for example for the kafir to display the decapitated heads on spikes outside the Tower of London.

On other occasions, criminals were hanged, then parboilled and riveted into an iron cage and displayed hanging from gibbets at crossroads and other public places. Left to "hang in chains" until the corpses rotted, fell apart, and were eated by the birds...

Then, kufr, there was "atomization", the process of handing the corpse over to the doctors for the instructions of the medical students.

And of course, hanging, drawing, and quartering, the sentence that they should return to the place from whence they came, from thence be drawn to the Common place of Execution upon Hurdles, and there to be Hanged by the Necks, then cut down alive, their Privy-Members cut off, and Bowels taken out to be burned before their Faces, their Heads to be severed from their Bodies, and their Bodies divided into four parts, to be disposed of as the King should think fit..."

And of course, crucifixion was a punishment taught to the Romans by the Zionist Jews of Palestine who tried to use it to kill Issa (AS), who you kafir and Jews and Christians falsely worship.

Oh kufr, it is us Muslimahs who are barbaric is it not? Not the Europeans who invented these barbaric punishments or the Jews who would kill people, as the Talmud tells us, by pouring molten lead down their throats, and who taught the Romans crucifixion.

The Muslims are the least barbaric people on the earth; and all our punishments are sunnah and required by the Shariah of Allah ta'ala..

188 marsl  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:19:19am

Where is the fair trial?
Where are the rights of the accused?
Where is the just trial?

I hate child molesters, but killing them and crucified them is not justice.

It's barbaric.

And they say that we are the savages.....

189 marsl  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:22:45am

re: #187 Aisha

Yeah, we did it also. In the Dark Ages. Just where Islam is. 500 years behind the civilization.

190 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:47:00am

re: #188 marsl

Where is the fair trial?
Where are the rights of the accused?
Where is the just trial?

I hate child molesters, but killing them and crucified them is not justice.

It's barbaric.

And they say that we are the savages.....

He wasn't _just_ a child molester; he murdered the boy and his father.

191 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:48:42am

re: #187 Aisha

Sallaams, kufr!

Oh how ignorant the kafir are!

It was common in England, for example for the kafir to display the decapitated heads on spikes outside the Tower of London.

On other occasions, criminals were hanged, then parboilled and riveted into an iron cage and displayed hanging from gibbets at crossroads and other public places. Left to "hang in chains" until the corpses rotted, fell apart, and were eated by the birds...

Then, kufr, there was "atomization", the process of handing the corpse over to the doctors for the instructions of the medical students.

And of course, hanging, drawing, and quartering, the sentence that they should return to the place from whence they came, from thence be drawn to the Common place of Execution upon Hurdles, and there to be Hanged by the Necks, then cut down alive, their Privy-Members cut off, and Bowels taken out to be burned before their Faces, their Heads to be severed from their Bodies, and their Bodies divided into four parts, to be disposed of as the King should think fit..."

And of course, crucifixion was a punishment taught to the Romans by the Zionist Jews of Palestine who tried to use it to kill Issa (AS), who you kafir and Jews and Christians falsely worship.

Oh kufr, it is us Muslimahs who are barbaric is it not? Not the Europeans who invented these barbaric punishments or the Jews who would kill people, as the Talmud tells us, by pouring molten lead down their throats, and who taught the Romans crucifixion.

The Muslims are the least barbaric people on the earth; and all our punishments are sunnah and required by the Shariah of Allah ta'ala..

Unlikely; if the Romans learned crucifixion from anyone, they learned it from the Carthaginians, long, long before they gave a second throught to Judea.

192 Melissa in NorCal  Sun, May 31, 2009 8:51:09am

I don't disagree with their punishment. Wish we put down our child predators as well. You can't fix these people. They are fundamentally broken. A quick beheading seems a proper, painless way to go for these misprogrammed people. The crucification seems a bit much though, especially as a deterrent because, well, if you are sick like this guy, you are sick regardless. It isn't something people decide to do, they are compelled to do it and probably will do it regardless of the consequences.

193 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:29:29am

re: #147 haakondahl

Nobody has tenure here, but I suspect that you do elsewhere.

I presume you had no point you wished to make yourself, then? Content rather to imply things and go on the attack when pressed to make a point? Yup. You're tenured.

Sometimes, you know, it's good to leave something as an exercise for the student.

194 shira  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:44:28am

And the Israeli press calls Saudi Arabia a "moderate" state. Public beheadings, displaying the corpse of the condemned -- without even getting into the treatment of women and non-Muslims -- how on earth can anyone call such a country moderate?

195 Tom Kratman  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:55:04am

re: #194 shira

And the Israeli press calls Saudi Arabia a "moderate" state. Public beheadings, displaying the corpse of the condemned -- without even getting into the treatment of women and non-Muslims -- how on earth can anyone call such a country moderate?

Well...is moderation an absolute or a relative? From the Israeli perspective, since the Saudi _government_ never really lifts a finger to do Israel any direct harm (though they shunt money, posture a bit, from time to time, and rarely try to prevent someone private or non-state from lifting that finger) perhaps they appear moderate. In terms of what matters to Israel, which is its own security, Saudi Arabia is relatively moderate. What Saudis do to their own is fairly irrelevant from the Israeli point of view, the purpose of Israel being to safeguard Jews, not to worry about human rights or gender equality in Saudi Arabia.

196 capt26thga  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:15:26pm

This story sure has a lot of pro and con with some venomous responses. It wasnt so long ago that we had public hangings here in the US. I believe they were stopped due to some people being injured trying to get a closer look. Not 100% sure. They are still old school when it comes to punishment. Beatings, public humiliation and flogging, torture and death sentences carried out immediately not 20 years later. The western world has swung to far the other way. TVs, air conditioned dorms, 3 meals a day plus snacks, weight rooms, basketball courts and in some states conjugal visits. So no wonder many people here think of them as being barbaric.

197 dpatten  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 10:38:09am

I'm not sure how to feel on this one. I am completely in favor of executing convicted murderers and child rapists who have been found guilty by a jury of their peers beyond a reasonable doubt. I wouldn't even be completely against public executions, presuming that they were a sober example of society forced to defend itself in extremis and not some Dickensian rabid mob-rule spectacle.

On the other hand, Saudi Arabia IS Saudi Arabia. Was this guy really guilty? Did he happen to be a convenient scapegoat to cover some other murdered because he was homosexual? why is it necessary to mutilate the corpse of a dead man? Wasn't the beheading a graphic enough example to wrongdoers?


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh