Federal Judge Blocks Parts of AZ Immigration Law

US News • Views: 6,489

US District Judge Susan Bolton has blocked parts of Arizona’s SB1070 immigration law.

And of course, the wingnuts go crazy at Hot Air. These days, practically any story at all provokes ranting about “civil war” from Hot Air commenters:

Let’s see, Judges overturning the will of the states….executive moratoriums on drilling, Congressional reconciliation against the will of the people, what’s next, Civil War? It’s getting to that point,

Bobnormal on July 28, 2010 at 1:47 PM

[…]

Screw the judge…

… enact the law anyway and tell the judge to stick her ruling up her a%s!

Seven Percent Solution on July 28, 2010 at 2:37 PM

Jump to bottom

387 comments
1 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:20:13pm
Screw the judge…

… enact the law anyway and tell the judge to stick her ruling up her a%s!

Seven Percent Solution on July 28, 2010 at 2:37 PM

I'll have to remember that one next time they try to ban abortions, overturn gun control laws or try to mandate teaching creationism in public schools.

2 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:21:48pm

I note with astonishment that the comments on these sites can contain the most vile racism, and no one blinks.

But they're squeamish about spelling out the word "ass".

3 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:22:15pm

Bobnormal should be called Abbie normal.

4 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:22:54pm

re: #2 Cato the Elder

I note with astonishment that the comments on these sites can contain the most vile racism, and no one blinks.

But they're squeamish about spelling out the word "ass".

Just because you're going to burn the heretics doesn't mean you can't do it politely.

5 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:23:05pm

A little background on Judge Susan Bolton:

On the recommendation of U.S. Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ), Bolton was nominated to the United States District Court for the District of Arizona by President Bill Clinton on July 21, 2000 to a seat vacated by Robert Broomfield. Bolton was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on October 3, 2000 on the unanimous consent of the Senate and received commission on October 13, 2000.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:23:26pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just because you're going to burn the heretics doesn't mean you can't do it politely.

And there might be children reading.

7 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:24:05pm

re: #2 Cato the Elder

I note with astonishment that the comments on these sites can contain the most vile racism, and no one blinks.

But they're squeamish about spelling out the word "ass".

The word is not "ass" it is "anus" and they are afraid to spell it out because then somebody might think they are gay.

8 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:24:12pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

And there might be children reading.

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:24:19pm

re: #5 Gus 802

A little background on Judge Susan Bolton:

Oh, give it up, Gus. The woman is a liberal activist, it's obvious. Because the law would never actually say anything that would interfere in Arizona's right to do what the hell they please.

10 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:24:36pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just because you're going to burn the heretics doesn't mean you can't do it politely.

"Excuse me, Madame Witch, would you mind terribly shifting your left foot a few inches? You're standing on a piece of kindling."

11 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:24:36pm

As a speculation, how does this ruling square with the DOJ B.I.E.T. program and current Federal laws that mandate local law enforcement officeers participate in immigration enforcement?

12 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:25:20pm

re: #10 Cato the Elder

They put that wart there!

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:26:37pm

re: #11 stockman

As a speculation, how does this ruling square with the DOJ B.I.E.T. program and current Federal laws that mandate local law enforcement officeers participate in immigration enforcement?

I don't know. Can you give us some links?

14 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:26:39pm

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, give it up, Gus. The woman is a liberal activist, it's obvious. Because the law would never actually say anything that would interfere in Arizona's right to do what the hell they please.

Obviously she was a judicial activist plant from all along!

I can see the nativists screaming at Jon Kyl now.

"Kyl approved judge blocks 'key provisions' of Arizona immigration law."

15 S'latch  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:26:51pm

The Seven-Per-Cent Solution is a book about Sherlock Holmes' recovery from cocaine addiction.

16 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:27:32pm

re: #10 Cato the Elder

"Excuse me, Madame Witch, would you mind terribly shifting your left foot a few inches? You're standing on a piece of kindling."

Reminded of the Mayor of Sunnydale from Buffy, season 3, as he prepares to massacre and devour the graduating class;

"Remember, fast and brutal. It's gonna be a whole new world come nightfall, don't want to weaken now. And boys? Let's watch the swearing"

17 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:28:26pm

Okay this law was written by an awful person and has the worst motivations. Lets assume it is taken down. But- I am left with a question or maybe really a sad awareness. It would appear that any law that enables local law enforcement enforce the direct Federal statute would be as unwelcome, attract as much protest, and have many of the same arguments against it. I refer for example to Special Order 40 that LAPD complies with.

It would appear there are so many undocumented aliens here that we can not properly enforce the law without them, by way of reporting crimes and being witnesses. The societal implications apart from immigration are jaw dropping.

18 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:29:55pm

re: #11 stockman

Good question-see my #17. I predict wide protests by the immigration activists.

19 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:30:32pm

That comment by Bobnormal is really disturbing. How similar is the political atmosphere today to the atmosphere of the early to mid 1990's. I was very little at the time, so I can't remember much.

20 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:34:16pm

"Let’s see, Judges overturning the will of the states…."


yeah, that's kind of what the founding fathers created them for

21 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:35:43pm

re: #20 SpaceJesus

"Let’s see, Judges overturning the will of the states…."


yeah, that's kind of what the founding fathers created them for

I don't remember Jesus putting that in the Constitution!
/Tea Bagger!

22 simoom  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:36:12pm

re: #2 Cato the Elder

I note with astonishment that the comments on these sites can contain the most vile racism, and no one blinks.

I used to waste my time, when reading comment sections, by clicking the report button that's often available. I don't think I ever once saw a post removed, and I only ever bothered with calls to violence and the most blatant racism.

23 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:36:13pm

re: #17 Rightwingconspirator

There is more than one program in place in which the immigration status of detainees is checked by local law enforcement. The difference between those and SB 1070 is that they check only people who have already been arrested. Wanting to check people in the street is just not practical for local law enforcement.

24 JeffM70  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:36:19pm

re: #19 ProLifeLiberal

That comment by Bobnormal is really disturbing. How similar is the political atmosphere today to the atmosphere of the early to mid 1990's. I was very little at the time, so I can't remember much.

He seems to not recognize the court's role in determining whether or not a law is constitutional. But of course if a state passed a law that affected him adversely, you can be sure he's have an entirely different outlook.

25 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:37:59pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. Can you give us some links?


I second the question. BIET?

26 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:41:07pm

re: #19 ProLifeLiberal

That comment by Bobnormal is really disturbing. How similar is the political atmosphere today to the atmosphere of the early to mid 1990's. I was very little at the time, so I can't remember much.

There was little talk of civil war but conspiracism, talk radio, and the religious right were really beginning to assert themselves as contrarian movements. It was still possible (barely) for self-declared conservatives to publicly say that liberals and democrats were well-intentioned and decent people, and not be run out of the party on a rail. That is not possible today, with the far right lunatic fringe of those days having turned into the mainstream of the present GOP. The election of 1994 was a major turning point, and not one for the better. This wasn't apparent at the time, since sane people like Bob Dole kept control for a while, but it is fairly obvious in retrospect.

27 darthstar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:42:38pm

The people at Hot Air need a 21st Amendment solution.

28 Lemon  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:42:54pm

[Link: www.nexportsolutions.com...]

I'm guessing this is the BIET program in question, although I have yet to look into it.

29 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:42:58pm

[Link: www.ice.gov...]

The 287(g) program is named after the section of law under the INA that authorizes ICE to train local officers to enforce immigration law. It has emerged as one of the agency's most successful and popular partnership initiatives as more state and local leaders have come to understand how a shared approach to immigration enforcement can benefit their communities.

30 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:46:07pm

re: #29 stockman

[Link: www.ice.gov...]

The 287(g) program is named after the section of law under the INA that authorizes ICE to train local officers to enforce immigration law. It has emerged as one of the agency's most successful and popular partnership initiatives as more state and local leaders have come to understand how a shared approach to immigration enforcement can benefit their communities.

OK, but you said

As a speculation, how does this ruling square with the DOJ B.I.E.T. program and current Federal laws that mandate local law enforcement officeers participate in immigration enforcement?

The only thing mandatory about 287(g) is that if you're going to participate, you have to do the training. Is that what you were talking about?

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:47:17pm

re: #29 stockman

[Link: www.ice.gov...]

The 287(g) program is named after the section of law under the INA that authorizes ICE to train local officers to enforce immigration law. It has emerged as one of the agency's most successful and popular partnership initiatives as more state and local leaders have come to understand how a shared approach to immigration enforcement can benefit their communities.


It's an interesting program, and I can see some advantages to it. I would point out, however, that it does not put the departments in a position where they are obligated to enforce immigration law or face lawsuits, and appears to be something the departments are doing willingly to improve their police work and their cooperation with ICE.

Haven't read in depth, but what Bolton's put on hold seems pretty reasonable.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:47:32pm

re: #30 wrenchwench

The only thing mandatory about 287(g) is that if you're going to participate, you have to do the training. Is that what you were talking about?

That too.

33 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:48:33pm

In view of these idiots, I do believe it's time for a quote from Rabelais:

"Friends, you will notice that in this world there are many more ballocks than men. Remember this."

34 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:53:33pm

Amazing, isn't it? How little the people going on and on about 'Law n' Order' actually believe in either?

35 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:56:33pm

re: #34 Romantic Heretic

They can't believe in what they don't even know to begin with.

36 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:58:21pm

re: #30 wrenchwench

The only thing mandatory about 287(g) is that if you're going to participate, you have to do the training. Is that what you were talking about?

Which would be required only after the Attorney General may enters "into a written agreement with a State, or any political subdivision of a State."

INA: ACT 287 - POWERS OF IMMIGRATION OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES
Sec. 287. [8 U.S.C. 1357] .

...(g) (1) 1/ Notwithstanding section 1342 of title 31, United States Code, the Attorney General may enter into a written agreement with a State, or any political subdivision of a State, pursuant to which an officer or employee of the State or subdivision, who is determined by the Attorney General to be qualified to perform a function of an immigration officer in relation to the investigation, apprehension or detention of aliens in the United States (including the transportation of such aliens across State line s to detention centers), may carry out such function at the expense of the State or political subdivision and to extent consistent with State and local law.

(2) An agreement under this subsection shall require that an officer or employee of a State or political subdivision of a State performing a function under the agreement shall have knowledge of, and adhere to, Federal law relating to the function, and shall contain a written certification that the officers or employees performing the function under the agreement have received adequate training regarding the enforcement of relevant Federal immigration laws.

(3) In performing a function under this subsection, an officer or employee of a State or political subdivision of a State shall be subject to the direction and supervision of the Attorney General.

(4) In performing a function under this subsection, an officer or employee of a State or political subdivision of a State may use Federal property or facilities, as provided in a written agreement between the Attorney General and the State or subdivision.

(5) With respect to each officer or employee of a State or political subdivision who is authorized to perform a function under this subsection, the specific powers and duties that may be, or are required to be, exercised or performed by the individual, the duration of the authority of the individual, and the position of the agency of the Attorney General who is required to supervise and direct the individual, shall be set forth in a written agreement between the Attorney General and the State or po litical subdivision.

(6) The Attorney General may not accept a service under this subsection if the service will be used to displace any Federal employee.

Continues.

37 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:00:10pm

[Link: www.ice.gov...]
An expansion on the 287(g) program

38 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:01:26pm

re: #23 wrenchwench
I think this bears posting in the context of where we should or should not go with enforcement iof immigration laws.

From Judicial Watch
How Los Angeles Deals with the Illegal Immigration Problem

The City of Los Angeles

Special Order 40 is a policy established in Los Angeles in 1979. Special Order 40 prohibits police officers from "initiat(ing) police action with the objective of discovering the alien status of a person." This prevents officers from inquiring about the immigration status of an individual and from contacting federal immigration officials about an individual's immigration status. In May, 2006, Judicial Watch filed a taxpayer lawsuit in the Superior Court of the State of California, County of Los Angeles asking the court to prohibit the LAPD from expending taxpayer funds to enforce and maintain Special Order 40, which violates both federal immigration laws and California law while placing American citizens at risk. After Judicial Watch filed the taxpayer lawsuit, ACLU lawyers intervened for illegal aliens to help defend the Special Order 40 sanctuary policy.

In 1996, Congress enacted legislation that states that a Federal, State, or local government entity or official may not prohibit, or in any way restrict, any government entity or official from sending to, or receiving from, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement information regarding the citizenship or immigration status, lawful or unlawful, of any individual. California law mandates that police officers enforce immigration laws and work with federal immigration officials.

Special Order 40 is an illegal policy that places the citizens of Los Angeles (and the nation) at risk. For instance, Judicial Watch's lawsuit references a New York Times article published late in 2004 about an illegal immigrant who went on a rampage in Hollywood, mugging three people, burglarizing two apartments and attempting to rape a woman in front of her five-year old daughter. The illegal alien had been deported four years prior for robbery, drugs and burglary but had made his way back into the United States. "Although he had been stopped twice for traffic violations," the Times reported, "the police were prohibited from reporting him to immigration authorities." And in Los Angeles in May of this year, an illegal alien, who was a known gang member, killed the high school football star son of a U.S. Army sergeant, just one day after the shooter was released from custody after serving time for assault with a deadly weapon. (The alleged murderer had been in the custody of Culver City, a neighboring Los Angeles jurisdiction that has illegal alien sanctuary policies similar to LA's Special Order 40.)

Judicial Watch's petition for review following the appellate court's upholding of the lower court's ruling was denied on September 9, 2009.

39 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:02:13pm

re: #23 wrenchwench

Would that be because it's just too far gone, too many already here? Is that the basis of the impracticality? Or?

40 Soap_Man  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:03:41pm

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but this doesn't surprise me. I was always under the impression that you did not ever have to provide identification unless you were arrested, per the supreme court. Basically, this is the opposite, that you have to provide identification or you will be arrested. (I know that in some states you have to identify yourself to police, but that is verbal identification, not documentation.)

I could be wrong on this though (again, not an expert). I haven't seen this angle covered and I was hoping someone could enlighten me.

41 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:05:14pm

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)
"State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens. Hispanic appearance alone is not sufficient. "

42 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:07:51pm

Hello all...

Before ranting about the evils of wingnuts, banning of books or redneck fantasies about a second civil war, I figure I should say something happy.

My sister's baby is well and so is she, thank Hashem, and, the brit was a real joy.

Klal Y'Israel has a new member in the covenant.

43 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:11:05pm

re: #42 LudwigVanQuixote

Hello all...

Before ranting about the evils of wingnuts, banning of books or redneck fantasies about a second civil war, I figure I should say something happy.

My sister's baby is well and so is she, thank Hashem, and, the brit was a real joy.

Klal Y'Israel has a new member in the covenant.

Mazal tov on your new nephew.

44 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:11:43pm

Ed Morrisey is also whining that the government is interfering with Christian sharia against gays...
Video: University makes diploma contingent on supporting gay rights?

CNN has an interesting roundtable on the case of Jennifer Keeton, who has sued Augusta State University to keep from getting expelled for not repudiating her statements about homosexuality. Keeton expressed her biblical perspective on the subject in and out of class while working toward a degree in counseling, and the school mandated a “remediation plan” that appears to have required her to renounce her Christian doctrine in order to gain a diploma from the school. The school has responded that a bias against homosexuality would disqualify Keeton from certification, a position that would put most Christians in Keeton’s position.
...
The state-run school has no such leeway. They cannot impose a religious test for graduation, no matter how they dress it up.

What if this was a Muslim student who had the same feelings about gays or Jews? Would the wingnuts support still support her?

45 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:13:25pm

re: #42 LudwigVanQuixote

Hello all...

Before ranting about the evils of wingnuts, banning of books or redneck fantasies about a second civil war, I figure I should say something happy.

My sister's baby is well and so is she, thank Hashem, and, the brit was a real joy.

Klal Y'Israel has a new member in the covenant.

Uncle!

I've been an uncle for going on eight years.

It's one of the most fulfilling roles I've ever had the joy of playing.

My niece is one of the great lights of my life.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:13:28pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Ed Morrisey is also whining that the government is interfering with Christian sharia against gays...
Video: University makes diploma contingent on supporting gay rights?

What if this was a Muslim student who had the same feelings about gays or Jews? Would the wingnuts support still support her?

No.

47 justaminute  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:14:57pm

I appreciate judicial injunctions that have been able to stop or at least force the state to make them take the case to the Supreme Court. We had primaries in Oklahoma last night and I could not pick out one, even on the Democratic side, that I can support wholeheartedly. The Republican side is cringe worthy. Many races did not even have a Democratic contender. Oklahoma is just going to go further down the rabbit hole. IMHO

48 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:16:56pm

re: #39 Rightwingconspirator

Would that be because it's just too far gone, too many already here? Is that the basis of the impracticality? Or?

The basis of the impracticality is the same as the reason for Special Order 40, which is that we need the participation of illegals in the legal system to some extent. The number is not relevant to that fact, but the impact of trying to change it is greater with greater numbers.

IMHO.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:18:27pm

Can I just comment, totally off topic, that I love _The Good Guys_?

"It's got a virus."

"Computers can't get sick."

"Yes they can! Look, it's frozen!"

"Well, is it sick, or is it cold?"

50 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:19:09pm

re: #42 LudwigVanQuixote

Before ranting about the evils of wingnuts, banning of books or redneck fantasies about a second civil war...

We know... Big Ben... Parliament...

//

Congratulations on becoming an uncle.

51 stonemason  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:20:28pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Ed Morrisey is also whining that the government is interfering with Christian sharia against gays...
Video: University makes diploma contingent on supporting gay rights?


What if this was a Muslim student who had the same feelings about gays or Jews? Would the wingnuts support still support her?


This wingnut would, are you saying we need to have a religious test in order to graduate from state schools?

Really?

52 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:20:43pm

Oh for fucks sake,

Prophetic Minister Calls for Prayer to Avert Economic Disaster

"The balance of the economy is fragile and depending on the way we fast, pray, and how we cast our votes in the next election will depend on which way the scale tips," she said. "We must pray and do. We must pray and act. We must awaken the church to the state of the nation without fear of pleasing man or fear for our reputation."

She said returning to biblical values and continuing to support Israel will cause the U.S. economy to stabilize and strengthen. As a result of prayer, she said God will send "supernatural solutions ... that our natural minds could never reason, nor grasp and they will heal the land."

"If we do not heed His word in this hour, there will be a tumbling of our economy and dark days will come such that our nation might never fully recover and have the greatness that God has favored us with for generations," she said.

In addition to the urgent prayer call, Jacobs plans to lead a 40-day fast beginning Sept. 24 and ending on Election Day, Nov. 2.

"This is not something that will be easily turned," she said. "It will not be turned without a battle, a battle both through our prayers ... [and] on our feet. We must vote with our feet for righteousness for these pro-life, pro-biblical values candidates. We must engage as we have never engaged before."

"I know that if we will do this that God is going to have mercy upon the nation," she added. "He's going to do miraculous things, things that no one else could do because He will give God-inspired, God-breathed ideas."
...

Supporters include such Christian leaders as TheCall founder Lou Engle, evangelical author Charles Colson, Foursquare Church leader Jack Hayford, Teen Mania founder Ron Luce, Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention and California pastor Jim Garlow, who called the initiative "a national movement that can save America."

"We're saying it's not enough to pray; we must act," Engle said. "We must stand for the foundations of the sanctity of life, of marriage and religious freedom, but that's not enough. We must act. We must live a lifestyle of justice to the poor."

"It's not enough to be standing in a righteous position," he added. "We need the measuring line of justice to be unleashed. We must become the heart of Jesus and compassion released in the land."

That would be Lou "Kill the Homos and Timothy McVeigh was a Christian Martyr" Engle.

53 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:23:20pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Ed Morrisey is also whining that the government is interfering with Christian sharia against gays...
Video: University makes diploma contingent on supporting gay rights?

So here is a bit more of the story:

"A student pursuing a degree in counseling says that she is the victim of anti-Christian discrimination by a Georgia state university for being told that her beliefs about homosexuality are "unethical and incompatible with the prevailing views of the counseling profession" and directed to attend "diversity sensitivity training."

The student, Jennifer Keeton, 24, views homosexuality as a choice made by gay individuals, rather than as an innate characteristic. As a Christian, she also views physical intimacy between consenting adults of the same gender as sinful. Still, Keeton contends, her views would not impinge her ability to approach gays as a professional counselor. Christian legal organization the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) has brought suit against Augusta State University on Keeton’s behalf, reported Spero News on July 28, depicting the case as an example of a Christian being subjected to intolerant "leftist" oppression."

"A public university student shouldn’t be threatened with expulsion for being a Christian and refusing to publicly renounce her faith, but that’s exactly what’s happening here," declared David French, a lawyer with ADF. "Simply put, the university is imposing thought reform," added French.
I'd say the ADF's lawyer is being a bit shrill here.
[Link: www.edgeboston.com...]

This is interesting.
I guess she could go into "Christian" counseling?

54 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:23:35pm

re: #40 Soap_Man

I can tell you LA has an ordinance about ID in public. Of course every driver stopped has to provide the license, registration & proof of current insurance.

55 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:24:51pm

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I just comment, totally off topic, that I love _The Good Guys_?

"It's got a virus."
"Computers can't get sick."
"Yes they can! Look, it's frozen!"
"Well, is it sick, or is it cold?"

Last night?
Hi-larious.
The mob accent that sounded like Christopher Walken doing a "mob" accent had me rolling.

56 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:27:05pm

re: #41 stockman

Are you getting that from American Patrol? I think they screwed up the title or the number. Link?

57 Soap_Man  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:27:21pm

re: #54 Rightwingconspirator

I can tell you LA has an ordinance about ID in public. Of course every driver stopped has to provide the license, registration & proof of current insurance.

But is that just for walking down the street. Obviously, you need a license to drive or an ID to get in a bar, but I was under the impression that nobody is required to provide a physical ID (to cops or anyone else) unless they are doing something that is age-restricted.

58 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:27:30pm

re: #51 stonemason

This wingnut would, are you saying we need to have a religious test in order to graduate from state schools?

Really?

No, but it seems her religious views prevent her from meeting the criteria for state certification. The state is not obliged to certify people who don't meet the criteria because of their religious beliefs. She can do unlicensed counseling through her church is she wants but the state is not obligated to accommodate her.

59 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:27:56pm

re: #48 wrenchwench

I find it astonishing that areas have so few citizens present that we are so dependent on the undocumented alien community to report. Or that a 911 burglary call would elicit an Immigration inquiry. I suspect much of this has been exaggerated and conflated by the illegal immigration activists.

60 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:29:18pm

re: #56 wrenchwench
Yep. I'm confused by this reference
[Link: www.americanpatrol.com...]

61 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:29:41pm

re: #57 Soap_Man

At home that is certainly true. Out and about? Seriously, lets say you are questioned by Police at a shopping mall. Refusing to give ID would be a problem anytime a cop asks.

62 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:31:05pm

Her lawsuit was thrown out:Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality

In his 48-page opinion, Judge Steeh said the university had a rational basis for adopting the ACA Code of Ethics.

“Furthermore, the university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values,” he wrote in a portion of his ruling posted by The Detroit News. “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.”

63 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:32:06pm

re: #53 webevintage

So here is a bit more of the story:

"A student pursuing a degree in counseling says that she is the victim of anti-Christian discrimination by a Georgia state university for being told that her beliefs about homosexuality are "unethical and incompatible with the prevailing views of the counseling profession" and directed to attend "diversity sensitivity training."

The student, Jennifer Keeton, 24, views homosexuality as a choice made by gay individuals, rather than as an innate characteristic. As a Christian, she also views physical intimacy between consenting adults of the same gender as sinful. Still, Keeton contends, her views would not impinge her ability to approach gays as a professional counselor. Christian legal organization the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) has brought suit against Augusta State University on Keeton’s behalf, reported Spero News on July 28, depicting the case as an example of a Christian being subjected to intolerant "leftist" oppression."

"A public university student shouldn’t be threatened with expulsion for being a Christian and refusing to publicly renounce her faith, but that’s exactly what’s happening here," declared David French, a lawyer with ADF. "Simply put, the university is imposing thought reform," added French.
I'd say the ADF's lawyer is being a bit shrill here.
[Link: www.edgeboston.com...]

This is interesting.
I guess she could go into "Christian" counseling?

She could.
Although what is that, exactly?

In my church, counseling on Christianity is done by the priest.
And he is able to counsel all sorts of folks, including pregnant teens, who you know he thinks are full of sin, and he does it with understanding and compassion, and without lectures.

I'm willing to bet there are a ton of counselors out there who have all sorts of personal beliefs that you or I or anyone else would find repugnant; and yet, in their profession, they are able to set aside personal stuff, and be helpful and successful. OR, they find a line of work where they WILL be helpful and successful.

If a person in that sort of field is NOT able to put aside personal religious beliefs when helping someone with their secular issues, if they are not able to avoid proselytizing, I suspect they would not be very successful in that field and would have to find something else to do.

Shouldn't they be focusing on this student's performance, what she actually does and is it within whatever ethical guidelines exist, rather than her personal beliefs?

64 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:32:45pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

I find it astonishing that areas have so few citizens present that we are so dependent on the undocumented alien community to report. Or that a 911 burglary call would elicit an Immigration inquiry. I suspect much of this has been exaggerated and conflated by the illegal immigration activists.

I don't get the "so few citizens present" part. If the household being broken into has one illegal alien in it, it wouldn't matter how many legal residents are there, they still wouldn't want to alert the police if it would result in a deportation.

"Or that a 911 burglary call would elicit an Immigration inquiry." That would depend on local law, right? Or whether Arpaio is your sheriff.

65 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:33:48pm

Dem memo: No, we won't lose the House

In another sign that House Dem leaders are eager to silence talk about them losing the House, top Democrats are circulating a memo on Capitol Hill that lays out a detailed case for why Republicans will come up short this fall.

The argument in the DCCC memo, which was sent over by a source and opens a window on Dem thinking about the political landscape in a difficult year, is two-fold.The key points: First, Republicans simply can't put enough seats in play to win the House. Second, the Tea Party has become a massive liability nationally in multiple unappreciated ways.

Here's the memo's argument about the number of seats in play:

Republicans will need to win 39 seats to take back the House. Democrats will win at least four Republican seats (the best opportunities include: LA-02, HI-01, IL-10, DE-AL, FL-25). As a result, the real number of seats Republicans will have to pick up to win a majority is at least 43. To win 43 seats, the NRCC would need to put 70 to 80 seats in play. The NRCC have simply not put that many Republicans seats in play and do not have the resources or caliber of candidates to do so.

The memo adds that wave elections are largely fueled by open seats, and that there aren't enough open seats this time around:

This cycle, there are only 20 Democratic open seats, including several that are in safe districts. If Republicans have a great election night, they would still only win 50 percent of the Democratic open seats. Conservatively, Republicans would then need to beat 35 Democratic incumbents to win the House - which is simply not possible given the Republicans resources deficit.

And here's the memo's argument about the Tea Party:

The Tea Party has presented three problems for Republicans. The most glaring problem is where the Tea Party candidate has defeated the moderate (and more electable) Republican candidate. Second, Republican candidates are being forced to take unpopular extreme positions to satisfy the ideological base to avoid defeat in their primaries. Third, we are seeing numerous Tea Party candidates run as third party candidates which is splitting the Republican vote...

There are more than 100 conservative third party candidates on the ballot. This is important because it lowers the win number for the Democratic candidate.

(please excuse my obsession with electoral politics and holding the line against conservatives. i know that there are republicans and conservatives here, but i consider myself a teddy roosevelt progressive)

66 Soap_Man  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:34:54pm

re: #61 Rightwingconspirator

At home that is certainly true. Out and about? Seriously, lets say you are questioned by Police at a shopping mall. Refusing to give ID would be a problem anytime a cop asks.

A problem? Sure. But can they arrest you for it? I don't think they can.

67 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:35:51pm

re: #61 Rightwingconspirator

At home that is certainly true. Out and about? Seriously, lets say you are questioned by Police at a shopping mall. Refusing to give ID would be a problem anytime a cop asks.

Depends on why he/she is questioning me. If they have no valid reason, then they can ship right off.

68 Kronocide  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:36:00pm

re: #65 engineer dog

Color me surprised.

69 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:38:49pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

Well my context & point is all about the Federal statute. Local Police should have the means to enforce all the applicable laws. There is this disconnect-Somehow we assume either something is wrong with the law or the cops when we restrict their ability to enforce the law.

What Az should do is pass an identical to Federal statute law and enforce it as they wish under the law. Having a person in the house so afraid of the police that crime can not be reported is why it sucks to have a felon in the house. Or even a man who skipped out on a moving violation and has a warrant. Maybe the wise course is get in line, get the visa per quota and spare the family the risk. Illegally entering the country is only one way that happens. There are many.

70 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:39:58pm

The wingnuts are hilarious on this issue today. Now Malkin and others are arguing that the judge's ruling is going to strike down all federal immigration laws.

That was Obama's evil plan all along, doubt. My goodness, is he ever sinister.

71 stonemason  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:40:32pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout


Saw that her case was dumped, on the state cert reason.
It still worries me.
What if the opposite had been the case, would it not be fought by progressives? Was it not fought by many for many years when it was true? So now one can't even have a belief counter to the state?

Scares me, just like hate crime scares me. I don't want Bush/Obama/Clinton or any other Presidents morals to be forced on me, nor do I want mine forced on you.

72 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:40:40pm

re: #66 Soap_Man

They do, but the argument is made that they are in fact going on an unconstitutional law. But it still stands despite civil advocates objections. What they do is take you in (arrested not booked) and figure out your identity, check you for warrants and act accordingly.

73 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:41:14pm

re: #60 stockman

Yep. I'm confused by this reference
[Link: www.americanpatrol.com...]

They are not a reliable source. American Patrol was founded by a racist who then hooked up with other racists. Their goal is political power for themselves, more than secure borders. They'd rather have you confused and worried than looking for effective solutions that don't demonize people.

Glenn Spencer.

74 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:42:21pm

re: #70 Charles

Youtube Video
75 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:42:36pm

re: #67 Varek Raith

The court sorts that out not you. They may well have good reason to ask. You might fit a description of a shop lifter. Face it they do have all the authority. If they exceed it that is a matter for later investigation and trial. You have no practical choice but to comply. Sucks huh?

76 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:43:20pm

i think obama should order all the troops to the border that the republican politicians ask for. then he should vigorously enforce the laws against employers who are hiring illegal aliens in a way that has never been seen before in this country

my guess is that all the powerful business interests who have been benefitting from their employement of illegal aliens over the years would soon be quietly putting extreme pressure on their republican friends who have been agitating this issue to cool it but quick

77 Summer Seale  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:44:05pm

I don't even have to look to already know that they're going to be labeling her an "Activist Judge".

My other guess is that they will be labeling her a "lesbian", "atheist", and other common "insults" (because those aren't) because they don't like it when people enforce parts of the Constitution which they do not agree with. Those people apparently are to be called "traitors".

They're not "conservatives"; they're just "assholes".

78 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:44:12pm

re: #71 stonemason

So now one can't even have a belief counter to the state?


Of course not. She's free to hate gays, jews and blacks all she wants and will never be charged with a crime. However, she's not entitled to receive certification from the government while doing it.

79 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:44:43pm

re: #69 Rightwingconspirator

I didn't say anything about a felon in the house. An illegal alien is not a felon, unless they also committed a crime that is a felony.

Local Police should have the means to enforce all the applicable laws.

Federal law enforcement officers enforce federal laws. Immigration laws are federal laws. Beyond that, I'm at a loss.

80 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:45:24pm

Hi folks.
Great news about the AZ law being temporarily blocked by the Courts. So what if anything will NOW be done by congress and the administration to enforce the existing laws or to enact comprehensive immigration reform?
(Hint: nada)

81 Kronocide  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:45:29pm

re: #70 Charles

The wingnuts are hilarious on this issue today. Now Malkin and others are arguing that the judge's ruling is going to strike down all federal immigration laws.

Sure they're in jeopardy: all federal immigration laws as sloppy and fuktarded as that one.

82 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:45:59pm

re: #63 reine.de.tout

How very un PC of you!

What you think now actually matters.

83 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:47:28pm

re: #78 Killgore Trout

Of course not. She's free to hate gays, jews and blacks all she wants and will never be charged with a crime. However, she's not entitled to receive certification from the government while doing it.

What if she were a physician? Or a dentist? Or an engineer?

84 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:47:34pm

re: #77 Summer

I don't even have to look to already know that they're going to be labeling her an "Activist Judge".

My other guess is that they will be labeling her a "lesbian", "atheist", and other common "insults" (because those aren't) because they don't like it when people enforce parts of the Constitution which they do not agree with. Those people apparently are to be called "traitors".

They're not "conservatives"; they're just "assholes".

Apparently Rush Limbaugh is already attacking her.

I figure we should expect a video from Andrew Breitbart and the skinny on her husband (assuming she has one) from Dan Riehl. Also expect a home furnishing survey of her house from Michelle Malkin. //

85 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:48:09pm

re: #63 reine.de.tout

She could.
Although what is that, exactly?

In my church, counseling on Christianity is done by the priest.
And he is able to counsel all sorts of folks, including pregnant teens, who you know he thinks are full of sin, and he does it with understanding and compassion, and without lectures.

Well "Christian Counseling" is a huge business (I'm sure you know that.) that includes the "turn people straight" folks. A lot of them do their work without a license. Other folks like your Priest do counseling as part of his calling and do it well, but are not what I would consider part of the "Christian Counseling" business.
(I've also always found my Priest to be kind and understanding and very much full of compassion. Maybe Priests are just cool that way.)

But we have 2 stories here.

One gal, Julea Ward, the Judge threw out her case:
U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

The other gal, Jennifer Keeton, is still in school and it seems that by "sharing her faith" she has made the University think that she will be unable to be licensed because of her views on homosexuality. In the end she will be fine, write a book, go on Focus on the Family and begin riding that evangelical homo hate gravy train seeing as how she is a pretty blond.

86 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:49:20pm

re: #84 Gus 802

Also expect a home furnishing survey of her house from Michelle Malkin. //

It is all about the granite counter tops with Malkin....
I've always wondered what kind she has?

87 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:50:13pm

re: #83 researchok

What if she were a physician? Or a dentist? Or an engineer?

Yes the same rules would apply. If a doctor hangs a 'Whites only" sign in his office the state would revoke his license. I imagine a bar owner would get the same treatment too.

88 Summer Seale  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:51:19pm

Again, the wingnuts do not dissapoint:

...
Everybody in America knows that we have a serious problem with illegal immigration at the Mexican boarder [emphasis added - ed]…….
...
Baxter Greene on July 28, 2010 at 3:52 PM

English first, anyone?

89 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:51:33pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

Hi folks.
Great news about the AZ law being temporarily blocked by the Courts. So what if anything will NOW be done by congress and the administration to enforce the existing laws or to enact comprehensive immigration reform?
(Hint: nada)

Why do you say that?
More money, more guards and more people being sent back from whence they came is happening under this administration then the ones that came before.

(I know why you say that because it is how the narrative goes. I wonder if Congress has passed the funding for more border protection? I wonder if the GOP against it?)

90 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:51:46pm

re: #85 webevintage

Well "Christian Counseling" is a huge business (I'm sure you know that.) that includes the "turn people straight" folks. A lot of them do their work without a license. Other folks like your Priest do counseling as part of his calling and do it well, but are not what I would consider part of the "Christian Counseling" business.
(I've also always found my Priest to be kind and understanding and very much full of compassion. Maybe Priests are just cool that way.)

But we have 2 stories here.

One gal, Julea Ward, the Judge threw out her case:
U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

The other gal, Jennifer Keeton, is still in school and it seems that by "sharing her faith" she has made the University think that she will be unable to be licensed because of her views on homosexuality. In the end she will be fine, write a book, go on Focus on the Family and begin riding that evangelical homo hate gravy train seeing as how she is a pretty blond.

Fox anchor material?

91 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:52:12pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

If she is in private practice doesn't she have the right to choose her own patients?

92 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:52:54pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

Hi folks.
Great news about the AZ law being temporarily blocked by the Courts. So what if anything will NOW be done by congress and the administration to enforce the existing laws or to enact comprehensive immigration reform?
(Hint: nada)

You seriously think that no immigration laws are enforced?

That's rather deluded.

93 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:53:53pm

re: #70 Charles

The wingnuts are hilarious on this issue today. Now Malkin and others are arguing that the judge's ruling is going to strike down all federal immigration laws.

That was Obama's evil plan all along, doubt. My goodness, is he ever sinister.

A TPer I know is convinced that Obama still intends to amnesty all the illegal immigrants in time to get them signed up to vote.
In November.
This November.
14 weeks from now.

94 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:54:09pm

re: #73 wrenchwench

I'm confused by the language of the quoted statute, which seems pretty definite that local officials have the authority to enforce Federal regulations. Did you read it differently?

95 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:54:41pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Yes the same rules would apply. If a doctor hangs a 'Whites only" sign in his office the state would revoke his license. I imagine a bar owner would get the same treatment too.

Further, suppose a therapist is pro life in his private beliefs. Or, suppose a therapist is for gay marriage and makes that known in a state where gay marriage is not approved?

Also, a bar owner/club owner can do as he pleases. Recall Augusta and women (non) members.

96 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:54:47pm

re: #79 wrenchwench

Okay. My point is anyone in the house fearful of the cops for legal reasons from a speeding ticket long unpaid, to an undocumented immigrant to a felon puts the household in the same jam. They can not call the police.

But what is wrong with a law enforcer enforcing the law? If a local cop is sees a crime in a National Park while driving through (Federal laws applies there) he can and will make the arrest. He may then hand the crook over to the Park Police. I think tribal reservation lands are the only place police officers actually lose jurisdiction in their own states. Caveat-I think so , from my recollection of study long ago. Love to see the statute that say otherwise.

97 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:54:52pm

re: #91 researchok

If she is in private practice doesn't she have the right to choose her own patients?

Nope, private practice still requires state licensing and she has to abide by the criteria to get a license. You wouldn't want unlicensed physicians just opening up offices, would you?

98 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:54:52pm

re: #89 webevintage

Why do you say that?
More money, more guards and more people being sent back from whence they came is happening under this administration then the ones that came before.

(I know why you say that because it is how the narrative goes. I wonder if Congress has passed the funding for more border protection? I wonder if the GOP against it?)

But that would raise the deficit!!!!

////

99 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:55:25pm

re: #95 researchok

Further, suppose a therapist is pro life in his private beliefs. Or, suppose a therapist is for gay marriage and makes that known in a state where gay marriage is not approved?

Also, a bar owner/club owner can do as he pleases. Recall Augusta and women (non) members.

A private club is different from a public bar.

100 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:55:47pm

re: #88 Summer

Again, the wingnuts do not dissapoint:

English first, anyone?

Be careful about advocating the use of English...it ain't PC.
BTW, this business of dradging up idiotic anonymous blog comments as being representative of the American right is hardly fair or accurate, is it?

101 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:55:55pm

re: #91 researchok

If she is in private practice doesn't she have the right to choose her own patients?

Oh, god, not this again...

102 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:56:09pm

re: #93 Shiplord Kirel

A TPer I know is convinced that Obama still intends to amnesty all the illegal immigrants in time to get them signed up to vote.
In November.
This November.
14 weeks from now.

No doubt. Just like my BiL was certain that Bush would never allow the 2008 election to happen...

Sheesh.

103 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:56:27pm

re: #95 researchok

Also, a bar owner/club owner can do as he pleases. Recall Augusta and women (non) members.


That's different. A private club can do as they please. A licensed medical practitioner cannot.

104 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:56:35pm

Conrad And Lieberman Come Out In Favor Of Allowing Wealthy To Keep Their Massive Bush Tax Cuts.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Awesome.
I was really starting to worry about the top 1% having to pay more in taxes.
/

Yes, yes.
Class warfare.
Who was it that said it was only "class warfare" when the little guy engaged in it?

105 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:56:44pm

re: #94 stockman

I tried to find the statute directly, but I can't be sure which they meant. I won't bother to try to interpret what they put up, because they are not a reliable source.

I also doubt that I'm smarter than Judge Bolton.

106 Summer Seale  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:57:02pm

re: #100 Spare O'Lake

Be careful about advocating the use of English...it ain't PC.
BTW, this business of dradging up idiotic anonymous blog comments as being representative of the American right is hardly fair or accurate, is it?

But they're such sane and rational people.

One feels a sense of duty to oblige.

107 KingKenrod  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:57:25pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Yes the same rules would apply. If a doctor hangs a 'Whites only" sign in his office the state would revoke his license. I imagine a bar owner would get the same treatment too.

I agree with you, but I don't think Keeton said she wouldn't counsel homosexuals, just that she had personal beliefs about their behavior.

So if a white dentist hated blacks, but still wanted to provide services equally, could the state force him into re-education to keep his license?

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:57:28pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

Hi folks.
Great news about the AZ law being temporarily blocked by the Courts. So what if anything will NOW be done by congress and the administration to enforce the existing laws or to enact comprehensive immigration reform?
(Hint: nada)

Well, 1200 National Guards are deploying to the border next week. I'm sure they love being told they're 'nada'.

Do you really understand how many personnel and resources are given to this issue in any given year, year in and year out?

109 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:57:32pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

Hi folks.
Great news about the AZ law being temporarily blocked by the Courts. So what if anything will NOW be done by congress and the administration to enforce the existing laws or to enact comprehensive immigration reform?
(Hint: nada)

And why would that be, pray?

Could it be that the economic bigwigs in this country like having an unlimited supply of quasi-slaves living in fear of the boss and el migro to do the work that no self-respecting American would do for similar pay and nonexistent benefits?

Nah. Couldn't be that.

110 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:57:47pm

I do not know this judge. Does she have a reputation as moderate, liberal, or conservative in general?

111 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:58:02pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

Nope, private practice still requires state licensing and she has to abide by the criteria to get a license. You wouldn't want unlicensed physicians just opening up offices, would you?

Of course not!

Seems to me a physician/therapist in a non emergency situation is free to choose his or her own patients.

Now, are you suggesting this is applicable only to medical professionals?

112 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:58:22pm

The WSJ has a nice editorial pwning the AZ Law from a conservative perspective...anyone who is or knows a conservative in favor of the AZ law, send them here.

113 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:04pm

re: #104 webevintage

Conrad And Lieberman Come Out In Favor Of Allowing Wealthy To Keep Their Massive Bush Tax Cuts.

Pew Research/National Journal Congressional Connection Poll, sponsored by the Society for Human Resource Management. July 22-25, 2010

"Which comes closer to your view about the tax cuts passed when George W. Bush was president? All of the tax cuts should remain in place. Tax cuts for the wealthy should be repealed, while others stay in place. All of the tax cuts should be repealed."

Keep all the tax cuts 30%
Repeal the tax cuts for the Wealthy 27%
Repeal all the tax cuts 31%

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:11pm

re: #91 researchok

If she is in private practice doesn't she have the right to choose her own patients?

Within legal limits, yes. I assume you cannot run an all-white medical practice, no matter how private you may be.

115 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:19pm

re: #41 stockman

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)
"State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens. Hispanic appearance alone is not sufficient. "

Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii) deals with:

§ 1324. Bringing in and harboring certain aliens

The specific section is only regarding criminal penalties.

116 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:25pm

re: #107 KingKenrod


So if a white dentist hated blacks, but still wanted to provide services equally, could the state force him into re-education to keep his license?

What are you talking about?

What re-education?

117 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:32pm

re: #109 Cato the Elder

Now you hit it! If Az passed a law severely punishing employers for hiring undocumented aliens the effect on immigration would be just as chilling. If Az passed that and a statute identical to the Federal statute and enforced it we would be having much the same debate.

118 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:35pm

re: #96 Rightwingconspirator

Okay. My point is anyone in the house fearful of the cops for legal reasons from a speeding ticket long unpaid, to an undocumented immigrant to a felon puts the household in the same jam. They can not call the police.

But what is wrong with a law enforcer enforcing the law? If a local cop is sees a crime in a National Park while driving through (Federal laws applies there) he can and will make the arrest. He may then hand the crook over to the Park Police. I think tribal reservation lands are the only place police officers actually lose jurisdiction in their own states. Caveat-I think so , from my recollection of study long ago. Love to see the statute that say otherwise.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've been reading about this stuff for a couple of years. It took a new federal law to allow sheriffs near the border to help each other across county lines. I think rules of jurisdiction are much more complicated than you realize. Certainly it's not just intuitive.

119 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:42pm

Well. I see the proverbial shit has hit the fan and its being flung all over the place, I just can't wait to see what the pro-illegal and anti-illegal activists are going to make of this ruling. The news should be interesting not to mention down right amusing in the next few days!

Oh, BTW, Hi everyone! Hows it going this lovely Wednesday?

120 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:59:44pm

re: #110 Rightwingconspirator

I do not know this judge. Does she have a reputation as moderate, liberal, or conservative in general?

See here
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

121 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:00:00pm

re: #119 Dragon_Lady

Well. I see the proverbial shit has hit the fan and its being flung all over the place, I just can't wait to see what the pro-illegal and anti-illegal activists are going to make of this ruling. The news should be interesting not to mention down right amusing in the next few days!

Oh, BTW, Hi everyone! Hows it going this lovely Wednesday?

Hi, long time no see!

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:00:05pm

re: #93 Shiplord Kirel

A TPer I know is convinced that Obama still intends to amnesty all the illegal immigrants in time to get them signed up to vote.
In November.
This November.
14 weeks from now.

I doubt it. Bush had eight years to get us signed up with the NAU and declare himself president for life, and he totally missed his deadline. Obama will too.

123 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:00:05pm

re: #111 researchok

A physician in a non-emergency situation is not free to discriminate against any of the protected groups, no.

124 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:00:30pm

re: #107 KingKenrod

I agree with you, but I don't think Keeton said she wouldn't counsel homosexuals, just that she had personal beliefs about their behavior.

So if a white dentist hated blacks, but still wanted to provide services equally, could the state force him into re-education to keep his license?

That's exactly why her case was thrown out. It wasn't so much about her personal beliefs but she wanted to force her beliefs on her patients. You just can't do that.

125 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:00:42pm

re: #111 researchok

Of course not!

Seems to me a physician/therapist in a non emergency situation is free to choose his or her own patients.

Now, are you suggesting this is applicable only to medical professionals?

It probably depends on the reason and what the rules are that the medical professionals agreed to abide by when they were granted their license.

126 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:00:54pm

re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist

Within legal limits, yes. I assume you cannot run an all-white medical practice, no matter how private you may be.

These are thorny questions.

For example, could a white supremacist sue a Jewish or black physician because he refused to take him on as a patient in a non emergency situation?

127 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:01:13pm

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I just comment, totally off topic, that I love _The Good Guys_?

"It's got a virus."

"Computers can't get sick."

"Yes they can! Look, it's frozen!"

"Well, is it sick, or is it cold?"

Did he suggest you scan two aspirin and call him in the morning? Sounds like a real winner of a tech!

128 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:01:26pm

There are Federal laws against carrying and using cocaine which local law enforcement must uphold. That doesn't mean they can stop anybody on a whim in order to enforce those laws.

129 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:01:37pm

With respect to professional having the freedom to choose clients... as student engineer who recently wrote his ethics exam on my provincial association's Canon of Ethics, I believe I could lose my professional certification for discriminating against protected classes based on "bringing disrepute to the profession" and failing in my duty to the public at large. IANAL or on the disciplinary board however.

130 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:01:39pm

re: #123 Obdicut

A physician in a non-emergency situation is not free to discriminate against any of the protected groups, no.

But can't he/she choose not to assume an individual as a patient?

131 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:01:42pm

re: #126 researchok

If the reason was his race, yes. If the reason was because he called the doctor a dirty kike, then no.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:02:22pm

re: #105 wrenchwench

I tried to find the statute directly, but I can't be sure which they meant. I won't bother to try to interpret what they put up, because they are not a reliable source.

I also doubt that I'm smarter than Judge Bolton.

I know I don't know the law as well as she does.

Frankly, this whole thing is deeply complicated, legally. I know what I think morally about the whole issue, and as an ex-cop's daughter, and as someone who's been listening to politicians talk scare stories about illegal immigration her whole life.

But for legality, I'm going to defer to the people who actually know the law.

133 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:02:42pm

re: #51 stonemason

This wingnut would, are you saying we need to have a religious test in order to graduate from state schools?

Really?

If a driving test includes questions on how fast you should drive on the freeway, and my religion told me I can drive 100 on the freeway, and I put that down on the test, and they fail me?

OMG RELIGIOUS TEST!!

134 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:02:43pm

re: #126 researchok

These are thorny questions.

For example, could a white supremacist sue a Jewish or black physician because he refused to take him on as a patient in a non emergency situation?

I'm not sure if the patient could sue but the state could (and probably would) revoke their license to practice.

135 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:02:46pm

re: #126 researchok

These are thorny questions.

For example, could a white supremacist sue a Jewish or black physician because he refused to take him on as a patient in a non emergency situation?

Luckily bigotry isn't a protected class.

136 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:02:55pm

re: #130 researchok

But can't he/she choose not to assume an individual as a patient?

Not for those reasons, no.

Look, it's like this: California is an at-will employment state. That means my company could fire me at any moment for no reason at all.

However, if they fired me the instant I informed them that I had AIDS, it would be trivial to show they'd fired me because of a medical condition-- and that's a protected class.

A physician could arbitrarily refuse to take a patient, but could not specifically discriminate against blacks.

137 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:02:57pm

re: #131 Obdicut

If the reason was his race, yes. If the reason was because he called the doctor a dirty kike, then no.

Interesting discussion.

138 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:03:14pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

Hi, long time no see!

Hi Varek! Have you had to duck a lot of flying stuff lately? Better get out your rain slicker, you and everyone else will be needing them to deflect the crap that's going to be flying very soon! ;)

139 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:03:24pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

That's exactly why her case was thrown out. It wasn't so much about her personal beliefs but she wanted to force her beliefs on her patients. You just can't do that.

Julea Ward, the Judge threw out her case:
U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

140 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:03:27pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

If a driving test includes questions on how fast you should drive on the freeway, and my religion told me I can drive 100 on the freeway, and I put that down on the test, and they fail me?

OMG RELIGIOUS TEST!!


Heh. Good example.

141 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:03:43pm

re: #89 webevintage

Why do you say that?
More money, more guards and more people being sent back from whence they came is happening under this administration then the ones that came before.

(I know why you say that because it is how the narrative goes. I wonder if Congress has passed the funding for more border protection? I wonder if the GOP against it?)

Narrative, shmarrative.
Are you actually maintaining that that existing immigration laws concerning deportation of illegals are now being enforced? I don't think you are and I don't think they are either.
The reality is that comprehensive immigration reform is nowhere in sight.

142 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:04:22pm

re: #115 Gus 802


But the language specifies the GENERAL power to enforce Federal immigration statutes without further clarification.

143 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:04:39pm

re: #136 Obdicut

Not for those reasons, no.

Look, it's like this: California is an at-will employment state. That means my company could fire me at any moment for no reason at all.

However, if they fired me the instant I informed them that I had AIDS, it would be trivial to show they'd fired me because of a medical condition-- and that's a protected class.

A physician could arbitrarily refuse to take a patient, but could not specifically discriminate against blacks.

That's the rub. We'd never really be able to know what anyone is really thinking.

144 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:04:55pm

re: #119 Dragon_Lady

Well. I see the proverbial shit has hit the fan and its being flung all over the place, I just can't wait to see what the pro-illegal and anti-illegal activists are going to make of this ruling. The news should be interesting not to mention down right amusing in the next few days!

Oh, BTW, Hi everyone! Hows it going this lovely Wednesday?

It's developing into a guano storm of Biblical dimensions. Check out the comments at Yahoo, or as many of the 30 thousand plus as you can manage.

145 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:05:00pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

If a driving test includes questions on how fast you should drive on the freeway, and my religion told me I can drive 100 on the freeway, and I put that down on the test, and they fail me?

OMG RELIGIOUS TEST!!

IF I DON'T SEE IT, IT'S NOT ILLEGAL!

146 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:05:12pm

re: #141 Spare O'Lake

Are you actually maintaining that that existing immigration laws concerning deportation of illegals are now being enforced? I don't think you are and I don't think they are either.


That's nuts. How do you explain people being deported, if the laws aren't being enforced?

Do you mean they're not perfectly, 100% enforced?

Neither is any other law.

147 KingKenrod  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:05:51pm

re: #116 Obdicut

What are you talking about?

What re-education?

From the abc article:

When officials at Georgia's Augusta State University told counseling student Jennifer Keeton they were concerned her outspoken Christian views might affect her ability to work with gay, lesbian and transgender clients, they gave her a choice: participate in a remediation plan or leave school.

[Link: www.aolnews.com...]

Also, the Washington Times article says this:

Jennifer Keeton, 24, who is pursuing a master's degree in counseling, said she was ordered to undergo a re-education plan that requires her to attend "diversity sensitivity training," complete additional remedial reading and write papers to describe their effects on her beliefs, according to the lawsuit filed Wednesday.

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:05:52pm

re: #139 webevintage

Julea Ward, the Judge threw out her case:
U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

yeah, sorry lady, you don't get to be a counselor, you're not qualified

OMG THEY'RE PERSECUTING MEEE

149 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:05:53pm

re: #145 Varek Raith

IF I DON'T SEE IT, IT'S NOT ILLEGAL!

Ooooh! I'll have to remember that one! You and RWC come up with the funniest one liners! LOL!

150 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:06:14pm

re: #143 researchok

That's the rub. We'd never really be able to know what anyone is really thinking.

It is not about what they're thinking, but how they're acting. When the doctor refuses to accept any new black patients and accepts all new white patients, it is trivial to show that they are refusing black patients.

Likewise, with the firing me right after I reveal my medical status to them or something.

This happens every day. It is not about what they're thinking. It is about what they do.

151 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:06:34pm

re: #144 Shiplord Kirel

It's developing into a guano storm of Biblical dimensions. Check out the comments at Yahoo, or as many of the 30 thousand plus as you can manage.

Wowza.

is this trash judges house still standing? what a piece of crap. burn her home down! anyone that does business not just with illegals but with mexicans at all is a traitor!
152 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:06:35pm

re: #111 researchok

Of course not!

Seems to me a physician/therapist in a non emergency situation is free to choose his or her own patients.

Now, are you suggesting this is applicable only to medical professionals?

Seems to me you don't know what you're talking about. State licensed physicians cannot go about discriminating on the basis of a membership in a protected class, which includes sexual orientation in several states. Emergencies don't play into it, because equal access to preventative care prevents many emergencies from ever occurring in the first place.

153 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:06:39pm

re: #147 KingKenrod

She's not a dentist, dude.

154 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:06:52pm

Clergy too, are licensed by the state.

Can they be sanctioned for marrying gays in a state where such marriage is still illegal?

155 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:06:58pm

re: #143 researchok

That's the rub. We'd never really be able to know what anyone is really thinking.

In general for tort law my understanding is its based on the idea of "what would a reasonable person do/have done?".

In this case a reasonable person wouldn't turn away all black clients. A reasonable person however may turn away one abusive black client.

156 stockman  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:07:04pm

re: #128 Gus 802

And, having pulled over an erratic driver with a white ring around his nose, does a cop have "reasonable suspicion" that a crime may have occurred?

157 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:07:14pm

re: #136 Obdicut

Not for those reasons, no.

Look, it's like this: California is an at-will employment state. That means my company could fire me at any moment for no reason at all.

However, if they fired me the instant I informed them that I had AIDS, it would be trivial to show they'd fired me because of a medical condition-- and that's a protected class.

A physician could arbitrarily refuse to take a patient, but could not specifically discriminate against blacks.

that is a shockingly well-informed piece of writing, for a librul...

158 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:07:55pm

re: #109 Cato the Elder

And why would that be, pray?

Could it be that the economic bigwigs in this country like having an unlimited supply of quasi-slaves living in fear of the boss and el migro to do the work that no self-respecting American would do for similar pay and nonexistent benefits?

Nah. Couldn't be that.

I agree. But what about the hopenchangen?

159 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:08:17pm

re: #144 Shiplord Kirel

It's developing into a guano storm of Biblical dimensions. Check out the comments at Yahoo, or as many of the 30 thousand plus as you can manage.

What do you want from a bunch of yahoos? Them thars no sirprise thayr mah frien! ;)

160 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:08:28pm

re: #141 Spare O'Lake

Narrative, shmarrative.
Are you actually maintaining that that existing immigration laws concerning deportation of illegals are now being enforced? I don't think you are and I don't think they are either.
The reality is that comprehensive immigration reform is nowhere in sight.

I agree with your last statement...it has become that third rail of politics.

BUT:
Obama Has Deported More Immigrants Than Bush
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

And do you discount the 1200 guards being added or the money being spent.? What will be enough and as the GOP says, how will we pay for it? What programs will we cut?

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:08:30pm

re: #147 KingKenrod

lol washington times


Look. If you're going to be a counselor, and you need certification, and you're telling them straight up you won't counsel gays in the way they want?

Then they don't certify you and you don't get to be a damn counselor.


If I don't serve drinks the way the state wants, I don't pass my OLCC cert, and I don't get to be a bartender.

Jesus.

162 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:09:05pm

re: #151 JasonA

I didn't even have to go to the next page to find that crap, btw.

163 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:09:19pm

re: #154 researchok

Are you talking about a ceremony with no legal weight?

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:09:25pm

re: #110 Rightwingconspirator

I do not know this judge. Does she have a reputation as moderate, liberal, or conservative in general?

This article gives some background on her.

165 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:09:29pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

lol washington times.

mooon riverrr...

166 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:09:46pm

re: #152 goddamnedfrank

Seems to me you don't know what you're talking about. State licensed physicians cannot go about discriminating on the basis of a membership in a protected class, which includes sexual orientation in several states. Emergencies don't play into it, because equal access to preventative care prevents many emergencies from ever occurring in the first place.

The discussion has nothing to do with 'protected classes' inasmuch as there are times we don't know why a physician might refuse to take on a patient.

Further, you are arguing that the conditions for all medical treatment is equal.
They are not.

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:09:48pm

re: #165 Aceofwhat?

mooon riverrr...

AH SEE
A BAD MOON RIZIN

168 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:09:52pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

But I want to be a bartender who refuses to serve gay people fruity drinks because they're fruity enough anyway!

/

169 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:10:05pm

Its perfectly legal to think black people are totally and utterly inferior. What goes on between your two ears is no one's business but your own. Its when you act on that belief that you can (not always however) run afoul of the law.

170 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:10:09pm

Total number of ICE cases brought to Federal Court last year increased by 12%:[Link: hispanic.cc...]

171 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:10:17pm

re: #166 researchok

It has everything to do with protected classes. Your assertion doesn't make any sense.

Why are you saying it doesn't?

172 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:10:23pm

re: #108 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, 1200 National Guards are deploying to the border next week. I'm sure they love being told they're 'nada'.

Do you really understand how many personnel and resources are given to this issue in any given year, year in and year out?

Amit it...that is a drop in the bucket of what is required to get actual, meaningful control of the border.

173 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:10:39pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Are you talking about a ceremony with no legal weight?

I suppose if there is no legal weight, there is no problem.

174 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:10:59pm

re: #154 researchok

Clergy too, are licensed by the state.

Can they be sanctioned for marrying gays in a state where such marriage is still illegal?

Physicians don't have a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing their right practice professional bigotry under the guise of belief, Clergy do, in large part because their services are optional in the grand scheme of things.

175 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:11:02pm

re: #142 stockman

But the language specifies the GENERAL power to enforce Federal immigration statutes without further clarification.

Not in the USC. You're referring to the Immigration and Nationality Act. The USC ball of wax is here:

CHAPTER 12—IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY

The problem isn't whether or not they should enforce the INA I'm thinking more of the means in which they would enforce it according to this new Arizona law and subject a wide swath of people to unreasonable search or scrutiny.

176 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:11:18pm

re: #172 Spare O'Lake

Stop badgering people, dude.

Telling them you know what they think, telling them to 'admit it'-- why behave like that?

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:11:25pm

re: #168 Obdicut

But I want to be a bartender who refuses to serve gay people fruity drinks because they're fruity enough anyway!

/

HAHAHAHA :D

"This drink is too gay. You're too gay. Gayer than a pink parrot driving a pink miata. We're cutting you off from blueberry margaritas. We will, however, serve you a manhattan or a rusty nail."

178 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:11:29pm

re: #172 Spare O'Lake

Amit it...that is a drop in the bucket of what is required to get actual, meaningful control of the border.

You'll have to define "actual, meaningful control of the border". I haven't seen that yet.

179 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:11:50pm

re: #170 prairiefire

Total number of ICE cases brought to Federal Court last year increased by 12%:[Link: hispanic.cc...]

Obama Deporting More Illegals Than Bush
And he's punishing more businesses that hire them

Oh noz!

180 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:06pm

re: #172 Spare O'Lake

Amit it...that is a drop in the bucket of what is required to get actual, meaningful control of the border.

Is it?
What would be enough?
Where will they come from and how will they be paid for?
BUT it is more then the previous administration and Rome was not built in a day and all that.

Did you expect a pony when Obama got elected?

181 Stanghazi  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:10pm

re: #112 Aceofwhat?

The WSJ has a nice editorial pwning the AZ Law from a conservative perspective...anyone who is or knows a conservative in favor of the AZ law, send them here.

It's behind a paywall. :(

182 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:22pm

re: #172 Spare O'Lake

Arm the Mexican border, or arm the Canadian border?

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:23pm

re: #126 researchok

These are thorny questions.

For example, could a white supremacist sue a Jewish or black physician because he refused to take him on as a patient in a non emergency situation?

I don't know. (I did watch a TV hospital drama where a black surgeon had to operate on a white supremacist, but that's a different situation. And was fictional.)

184 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:27pm

re: #173 researchok

I suppose if there is no legal weight, there is no problem.

Exactly.

There were laws in place criminalizing marrying blacks and whites, even though the ceremony would also not have any actual legal weight to it. Just as an extra dick move, I guess.

There may be ones likewise for someone performing a gay marriage, but the marriage still wouldn't actually ever exist, if it was illegal in the first place.

185 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:27pm

re: #179 Gus 802

Obama Deporting More Illegals Than Bush
And he's punishing more businesses that hire them

Oh noz!

Why does Obama hate the free market?

/

186 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:43pm

re: #181 Stanley Sea

It's behind a paywall. :(

WHAT ARE YOU SOME SORT OF COMMIE? NO FREE LUNCH! NO FREE LUNCH!

//

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:48pm

re: #127 Dragon_Lady

Did he suggest you scan two aspirin and call him in the morning? Sounds like a real winner of a tech!

A few minutes later, "We have to get medicine for the computer machine!"

188 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:12:50pm

re: #118 wrenchwench

As I understand it-A defense attorneys are welcome to tell me if I'm wrong-
If you are a sworn police officer anywhere in California you have state wide arrest powers. An LAPD cop can arrest a rapist or gun violator anywhere in the state. They tend not to but what they choose to do and what the law allows is different. Lots of reports to be made for arrests out of the employers jurisdiction. Professional courtesy has its own demands that get assumed to be law. Like an LAPD cop in Anaheim. At least that is what I was taught in use of force classes. Heck a citizen can use force to stop a rape. And hold the rapist. Special felony only provision. Of course that is rare."Peace Officer" is a state granted credential.

189 Stanghazi  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:13:07pm

re: #181 Stanley Sea

A registration wall, my mistake.

190 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:13:12pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

Army doctors have a long history of treating enemy wounded, too.

191 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:13:40pm

re: #171 Obdicut

It has everything to do with protected classes. Your assertion doesn't make any sense.

Why are you saying it doesn't?

My remarks are predicated on her statements. Her personal beliefs have been put in play.

It seems to me she has the right to determine the kind of practice she wants to have.

I'm not being adversarial here.

Would/should a pharmacist be denied a license or renewal because they did not want to dispense morning after pills?

192 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:13:43pm

re: #179 Gus 802

Obama Deporting More Illegals Than Bush
And he's punishing more businesses that hire them

Oh noz!

Youze stealing my meme!

193 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:13:48pm

re: #119 Dragon_Lady

Do you recall the part about Police arrest powers in our use of force class we took? I seem to recall it as I posted above.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:14:26pm

re: #139 webevintage

Julea Ward, the Judge threw out her case:
U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

Ah. That's a bit different than what Morissey is describing.

195 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:14:31pm

re: #192 prairiefire

Youze stealing my meme!

Here's another story...

Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration

Washington Post.

196 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:14:47pm

re: #146 Obdicut

That's nuts. How do you explain people being deported, if the laws aren't being enforced?

Do you mean they're not perfectly, 100% enforced?

Neither is any other law.

That is a 100% straw dodge.

197 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:15:17pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

If a driving test includes questions on how fast you should drive on the freeway, and my religion told me I can drive 100 on the freeway, and I put that down on the test, and they fail me?

OMG RELIGIOUS TEST!!

I keep telling the cops that BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD is a religious obligation, but they keep saying no

198 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:15:21pm

re: #193 Rightwingconspirator

Do you recall the part about Police arrest powers in our use of force class we took? I seem to recall it as I posted above.

Looks about right to me, at least that's how I remember it.

199 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:15:50pm

re: #191 researchok


It seems to me she has the right to determine the kind of practice she wants to have.

But she doesn't. She doesn't have the right to refuse service to anyone for reasons that are illegal, like on account of their race or gender.


Would/should a pharmacist be denied a license or renewal because they did not want to dispense morning after pills?

They should be, yes. It varies state-to-state, I believe.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:15:53pm

re: #141 Spare O'Lake

Narrative, shmarrative.
Are you actually maintaining that that existing immigration laws concerning deportation of illegals are now being enforced? I don't think you are and I don't think they are either.
The reality is that comprehensive immigration reform is nowhere in sight.

Yes, they are being enforced. We arrest people and deport them daily.

In fact, the Obama administration is deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants, according to the WaPo.

201 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:15:56pm

re: #181 Stanley Sea

It's behind a paywall. :(

weird. i used the google version, but they must have made the paywall smarter...you can still google the title to get past the paywall, though.

thanks for letting me know!

202 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:15:58pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah. That's a bit different than what Morissey is describing.

That's because I think he is discussing this gal:
[Link: www.edgeboston.com...]

203 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:16:27pm

re: #174 goddamnedfrank

Physicians don't have a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing their right practice professional bigotry under the guise of belief, Clergy do, in large part because their services are optional in the grand scheme of things.

Does the same apply to engineers, for example?

Should an engineer be denied a license or renewal because he belongs to the Klan?

I am not trying to be adversarial here. The discussion here opens up a whole new panorama. When do personal beliefs become fair game (no matter how ugly)?

204 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:16:33pm

re: #126 researchok

These are thorny questions.

For example, could a white supremacist sue a Jewish or black physician because he refused to take him on as a patient in a non emergency situation?

On the basis of the patient's race, no. Now if the patient's documented pattern of criminal and violent behavior demonstrated a reasonably clear and present danger to the physician and his staff, then that's different.

205 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:16:35pm

re: #176 Obdicut

Stop badgering people, dude.

Telling them you know what they think, telling them to 'admit it'-- why behave like that?

Dude yourself.

206 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:16:35pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

This article gives some background on her.

I am encouraged it was a moderate judge.

207 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:16:39pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, they are being enforced. We arrest people and deport them daily.

In fact, the Obama administration is deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants, according to the WaPo.

Excerpt:

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency expects to deport about 400,000 people this fiscal year, nearly 10 percent above the Bush administration's 2008 total and 25 percent more than were deported in 2007. The pace of company audits has roughly quadrupled since President George W. Bush's final year in office.

208 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:16:44pm

re: #196 Spare O'Lake

That is a 100% straw dodge.

A dodge of what, dude? You haven't really said anything.

What is the problem that needs addressing? Do you want a 100% locked down border? What is the end goal?

209 webevintage  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:16:57pm

re: #196 Spare O'Lake

That is a 100% straw dodge.

and you are ignoring the facts...

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:17:08pm

re: #151 JasonA

I don't read the comments at Yahoo. When my head explodes, my husband says it's all icky and refuses to help clean up the spattered brain matter.

211 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:17:23pm

re: #199 Obdicut

They should be, yes. It varies state-to-state, I believe.

Let me be clear. Are you saying this is an issue only because of the state she is in?

212 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:17:27pm

re: #197 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I keep telling the cops that BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD is a religious obligation, but they keep saying no

What about the skulls for the skull throne???

213 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:17:46pm

re: #158 Spare O'Lake

I agree. But what about the hopenchangen?

What about it?

214 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:17:53pm

re: #211 researchok

Let me be clear. Are you saying this is an issue only because of the state she is in?

The state who is in? I'm sorry, I'm losing track of the hypotheticals vs. the realities here.

215 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:18:44pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, they are being enforced. We arrest people and deport them daily.

In fact, the Obama administration is deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants, according to the WaPo.

If you measure Obama's performance on immigration against Bush, then Obama will probably not lose. Unfortunately, that is not a satisfactory yardstick to use.

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:18:45pm

re: #168 Obdicut

But I want to be a bartender who refuses to serve gay people fruity drinks because they're fruity enough anyway!

/

Real men don't drink appletinis, therefore you can't have one!

217 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:19:22pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

What is the satisfactory yardstick?

218 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:19:34pm

re: #203 researchok

Does the same apply to engineers, for example?

Should an engineer be denied a license or renewal because he belongs to the Klan?

I am not trying to be adversarial here. The discussion here opens up a whole new panorama. When do personal beliefs become fair game (no matter how ugly)?

In my juristiction, yes you would lose your license. From the canon of ethics,

8. shall not be associated with enterprises contrary to the public interest or sponsored by persons of questionable integrity.

[Link: engineering.dal.ca...]

Easy enough eh?

219 Kragar  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:19:55pm

re: #212 Varek Raith

What about the skulls for the skull throne???

Creeping Khorne worship, first you take the blood, then you go for the skulls.

220 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:20:32pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Real men don't drink appletinis, therefore you can't have one!

How about a shot of Cazadores? ;)

221 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:20:53pm

re: #214 Obdicut

The state who is in? I'm sorry, I'm losing track of the hypotheticals vs. the realities here.

Sorry!

I was responding to your remarks re pharmacists and licensong and renewal. You noted that some states would sanction a pharmacist for refusing to dispense the 'Morning After' pill.

Also, counseling may not necessarily fall into the 'medical practice' field.

222 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:21:15pm

re: #217 Obdicut

What is the satisfactory yardstick?

95% percent locked down....easy enough

223 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:21:37pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Real men don't drink appletinis, therefore you can't have one!

Real men should not even know what an appletini is.

224 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:21:50pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't read the comments at Yahoo. When my head explodes, my husband says it's all icky and refuses to help clean up the spattered brain matter.

You need a better husband.

///

225 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:22:12pm

re: #222 albusteve

95% percent locked down...easy enough

95% of what?

226 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:23:03pm

re: #217 Obdicut

What is the satisfactory yardstick?

It's an open question, I suppose, but I would suggest substantial and effective control of the border, such that the present flood of illegals is drastically slowed to an insignificant trickle.

227 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:23:12pm

re: #225 Obdicut

95% of what?

OF 100.
DUH.
/

228 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:23:45pm

re: #218 McSpiff

[Link: engineering.dal.ca...]

Easy enough eh?

I don't know...that's a broad spectrum.

I wonder if anyone has ever lost their license for belonging to the Klan.

Also, how the canon has been applied.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:23:48pm

re: #172 Spare O'Lake

Amit it...that is a drop in the bucket of what is required to get actual, meaningful control of the border.

Please tell me: what do you think would be required? How many Federal personnel, what sort of equipment, what do you imagine this would cost, and what would the advantage be to the United States of this sort of outlay? Who would pay for it?

I don't want to be hostile about this, but just repeatedly saying 'it's not enough' isn't much of an arguing point. There is a reason this has been an issue for every administration since the late nineteenth century.

230 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:23:52pm

re: #221 researchok

Its really not hard at all. If there is a sanctioning body, their rules and by-laws are normally paramount. After this comes government law, followed in the end I guess by the constitution.

So if there is a governing body that says "You can't discriminate against gays", she's shit out of luck. If there is a state law saying "You can't discriminate against gays" she's shit out of luck. Otherwise she's fine.

231 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:24:02pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

If you measure Obama's performance on immigration against Bush, then Obama will probably not lose. Unfortunately, that is not a satisfactory yardstick to use.

Moving the goal posts. Please state a satisfactory yardstick in your opinion.

232 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:24:20pm

re: #221 researchok

Yes, currently some states which are highly anti-abortion allow pharmacists to not dispense the morning after pill. I think that some states actually prohibit the morning after pill, but i'm rusty on those laws.

That will change over time, however. The logic behind it is that of any other medical procedure; treating it differently out of religious beliefs should not be protected behavior any more than a Christian Scientist EMT refusing to give a blood pack should be.

233 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:24:26pm

re: #225 Obdicut

95% of what?

who knows, make something up if you want

234 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:24:43pm

re: #226 Spare O'Lake

It's an open question, I suppose, but I would suggest substantial and effective control of the border, such that the present flood of illegals is drastically slowed to an insignificant trickle.

So you have no yardstick. At all. You're just complaining.

Great. Really fucking helpful.

235 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:24:52pm

re: #231 prairiefire

Oh, it is now an open question.

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:25:11pm

re: #180 webevintage

Is it?
What would be enough?
Where will they come from and how will they be paid for?
BUT it is more then the previous administration and Rome was not built in a day and all that.

Did you expect a pony when Obama got elected?

No, but Spare is convinced, as far as I can tell, that the word "Hope and Change" mean that we're entitled to ask Obama to walk on water and make fun of his voters if he sinks.

237 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:25:15pm

re: #233 albusteve

who knows, make something up if you want

Exactly.

238 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:25:19pm

re: #203 researchok

Does the same apply to engineers, for example?

Should an engineer be denied a license or renewal because he belongs to the Klan?

I am not trying to be adversarial here. The discussion here opens up a whole new panorama. When do personal beliefs become fair game (no matter how ugly)?

When they interfere with running a business of public accommodation. Private, members only clubs aren't places of public accommodation, but businesses that are ostensibly (say it with me now) open to the general public, are. You're very close to arguing Rand Paul's position against the Civil Rights Act. I respectfully disagree.

The right of everyone to live in a desegregated society trumps the individual business owners right to be arbitrarily dickish.

239 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:25:21pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

If you measure Obama's performance on immigration against Bush, then Obama will probably not lose. Unfortunately, that is not a satisfactory yardstick to use.

In other words even though you are given evidence that there is positive movement regarding enforcement of immigration law that still doesn't matter? So which news do you prefer? That Obama is doing nothing but exceeding previous administration expectations?

240 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:26:06pm

re: #230 McSpiff

Its really not hard at all. If there is a sanctioning body, their rules and by-laws are normally paramount. After this comes government law, followed in the end I guess by the constitution.

So if there is a governing body that says "You can't discriminate against gays", she's shit out of luck. If there is a state law saying "You can't discriminate against gays" she's shit out of luck. Otherwise she's fine.

See Obdis 232.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:26:16pm

re: #190 Obdicut

Army doctors have a long history of treating enemy wounded, too.

Stand by, next thing you know, the radical punditry will be demanding one of them be shot for it. :)

242 Donna Ballard  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:26:22pm

re: #227 Varek Raith

OF 100.
DUH.
/

LOL! You did it again!

243 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:26:48pm

re: #228 researchok

I don't know...that's a broad spectrum.

I wonder if anyone has ever lost their license for belonging to the Klan.

Also, how the canon has been applied.

Probably not. At least in this jurisdiction its stupidly hard to lose your license. Most likely receive a fine, and only if the engineer in question was saying something like "Blacks are dumb, I know this as a klansman and a professional engineer" in public.

244 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:26:54pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Please tell me: what do you think would be required? How many Federal personnel, what sort of equipment, what do you imagine this would cost, and what would the advantage be to the United States of this sort of outlay? Who would pay for it?

I don't want to be hostile about this, but just repeatedly saying 'it's not enough' isn't much of an arguing point. There is a reason this has been an issue for every administration since the late nineteenth century.

I know it's awfully difficult for those with a vested interest, but to me it's really very simple. You decide on the minimum compliance required in order to have an effective border, and then you do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes.

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:27:04pm

re: #191 researchok

My remarks are predicated on her statements. Her personal beliefs have been put in play.

It seems to me she has the right to determine the kind of practice she wants to have.

I'm not being adversarial here.

Would/should a pharmacist be denied a license or renewal because they did not want to dispense morning after pills?

"Would" has been extensively argued over.

"Should", I say yes. I don't need my pharmacist deciding if I can have my prescription or not.

246 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:27:06pm

re: #236 SanFranciscoZionist

No, but Spare is convinced, as far as I can tell, that the word "Hope and Change" mean that we're entitled to ask Obama to walk on water and make fun of his voters if he sinks.

We are. He's not. He's Canadian, no? :P

247 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:27:38pm

re: #237 Obdicut

Exactly.

refer to your own 208

248 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:27:46pm

re: #240 researchok

And for the record, I'm very leery about prohibiting anyone from having a license because they belong to some group or another with bad moral character. In the '50s, that would have been used to make sure nobody belonging to a socialist group could get a license.

The Klan, on the other hand, actually murders people, so to me that's just like being part of a gang.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:27:51pm

re: #196 Spare O'Lake

That is a 100% straw dodge.

No, it isn't. There are federal personnel enforcing these laws on a daily basis. That is provable.

You're making some sort of other allegation, which you can't clarify.

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:28:19pm

re: #202 webevintage

That's because I think he is discussing this gal:
[Link: www.edgeboston.com...]

Thanks.

251 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:28:37pm

Scattershot meme, Duck!

252 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:28:45pm

re: #231 prairiefire

Moving the goal posts. Please state a satisfactory yardstick in your opinion.

re: #239 Gus 802

See #226.

253 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:29:12pm

re: #244 Spare O'Lake

I know it's awfully difficult for those with a vested interest, but to me it's really very simple. You decide on the minimum compliance required in order to have an effective border, and then you do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes.

What vested interest would that be? You mean like we Americans that live here in the USA? No wait, or is that those that have a vested interest in Obama? I know, having a vested interest in the current president is considered so passe these days. He's not the president. He's "Obama."

254 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:29:26pm

re: #252 Spare O'Lake

Your #226 again contains nothing useful, at all.

You're simply saying that it's not good enough-- but you cannot say what would be good enough.

You have nothing.

255 Merkin  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:29:30pm

One shouldn't forget that entering the country illegally or overstaying a visa is a class 3 misdemeanor, a half step up from a traffic ticket. If we were proposing spending one thousandth of the resources of the government that we are here on enforcing any other class 3 misdemeanor we would be rightly be accused of wasting the time and money of law enforcement.

In most states the problem is that the officer must actually witness someone committing a misdemeanor before an arrest can be made. It is hard to argue that observing someone walking along the sidewalk dressed like an illegal is witnessing a crime.

256 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:29:53pm

re: #234 Obdicut

So you have no yardstick. At all. You're just complaining.

Great. Really fucking helpful.

In good faith I gave you a yardstick.
You are clearly in denial.

257 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:30:20pm

re: #248 Obdicut

And for the record, I'm very leery about prohibiting anyone from having a license because they belong to some group or another with bad moral character. In the '50s, that would have been used to make sure nobody belonging to a socialist group could get a license.

The Klan, on the other hand, actually murders people, so to me that's just like being part of a gang.

Right and I should have been clearer before. The only cases I can think of would be where someone uses their professional status as an endorsement of something like the klan.

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:30:25pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

If you measure Obama's performance on immigration against Bush, then Obama will probably not lose. Unfortunately, that is not a satisfactory yardstick to use.

I agree. I wish Bush had been in a better place to push harder for immigration reform, and I hope to see Obama do so, without much hope.

But you are still hiding behind a vague cloud of 'no one does anything', which is not true. Federal immigration laws were enforced under both presidents.

259 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:30:27pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Ed Morrisey is also whining that the government is interfering with Christian sharia against gays...
Video: University makes diploma contingent on supporting gay rights?

What if this was a Muslim student who had the same feelings about gays or Jews? Would the wingnuts support still support her?

From this article

The problem? The school won't let her graduate from the College of Education’s School Counselor master's degree program until she submits to sensitivity training on tolerance of LGBT individuals.

So what's the problem here?

Keeton does indeed have a right to disagree with gays. Or be a homophobe (tomayto, tomahto).

Everyone does.

Just as the school has a right to determine someone doesn't meet the criteria for graduation for a particular degree.

:

She should have just kept her mouth shut, done the required work for the degree and then gone about her way after graduation. Problem solved.

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:30:31pm

re: #191 researchok

My remarks are predicated on her statements. Her personal beliefs have been put in play.

It seems to me she has the right to determine the kind of practice she wants to have.

I'm not being adversarial here.

Would/should a pharmacist be denied a license or renewal because they did not want to dispense morning after pills?

Actually, yeah!

A pharmacist should not be able to elect which meds they can dole out. if wacky religion X tells a pharmacist that all psychoactive meds erode the soul and he refuses to dispense them, he's not a pharmacist, his license should be revoked.

261 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:30:45pm

re: #256 Spare O'Lake

In good faith I gave you a yardstick.
You are clearly in denial.

You gave me no yardstick at all, Spare. Nothing. You said it was an open question.

262 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:31:15pm

re: #254 Obdicut

Your #226 again contains nothing useful, at all.

You're simply saying that it's not good enough-- but you cannot say what would be good enough.

You have nothing.

I think a trickle is an excellent yardstick....actually it's you that has nothing. this border thing has always frustrated you, and the result are these stupid questions you ask

263 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:31:17pm

re: #203 researchok

Does the same apply to engineers, for example?

Should an engineer be denied a license or renewal because he belongs to the Klan?

I am not trying to be adversarial here. The discussion here opens up a whole new panorama. When do personal beliefs become fair game (no matter how ugly)?

Easy. It's what Obdicut keeps saying. The moment that one has an effect in the course of business, intended or not, on a protected characteristic, one is violating the law. An engineer can't refuse to build a balcony for a homosexual, and a counselor can't refuse counseling.

264 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:32:01pm

re: #262 albusteve

I think a trickle is an excellent yardstick...actually it's you that has nothing. this border thing has always frustrated you, and the result are these stupid questions you ask

Calm down, Steve.

How much is 'a trickle'?

265 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:32:29pm

re: #263 Aceofwhat?

Easy. It's what Obdicut keeps saying. The moment that one has an effect in the course of business, intended or not, on a protected characteristic, one is violating the law. An engineer can't refuse to build a balcony for a homosexual, and a counselor can't refuse counseling.

I'll be damned before I design a living room with track-lighting!

/

266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:32:32pm

re: #223 researchok

Real men should not even know what an appletini is.

hahaha I've had them before but admittedly I'm not exactly the picture of Marlboro Man toughness :D

[sub]the problem is when they don't have any good beer on tap[/sub]

267 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:32:32pm

re: #261 Obdicut

You gave me no yardstick at all, Spare. Nothing. You said it was an open question.

Look Obi, its straight forward. Obama said something about hopenchange so nothing he does will ever be good enough. Therefore anything not done by him is good. So 1200 National guard troops and increased deportations are useless, but the AZ goes along way to solveing the problem. Duh

268 Kruk  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:33:21pm

re: #16 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

God, I love Mayor Wilkins. My personal favorites:

"What? We don't know during dark rituals any more?"

and

"I'd sell my soul for a decent short game." [Pause] "Of course, it's a little late for that now."

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:33:48pm

re: #265 JasonA

I'll be damned before I design a living room with track-lighting!

/

I'll step into a room with track lighting, but I just don't want my daughter to own a house with track lighting

270 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:34:00pm

re: #262 albusteve

I think a trickle is an excellent yardstick...actually it's you that has nothing. this border thing has always frustrated you, and the result are these stupid questions you ask

You might as well say "as long as a piece of string". Obi is asking for numbers and he's getting platitudes.

271 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:34:18pm

re: #267 McSpiff

Look Obi, its straight forward. Obama said something about hopenchange so nothing he does will ever be good enough. Therefore anything not done by him is good. So 1200 National guard troops and increased deportations are useless, but the AZ goes along way to solveing the problem. Duh

Also, there's something about clinging to guns, that means he's a terrible president and we should elect The Joker instead

272 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:34:19pm

re: #264 Obdicut

Calm down, Steve.

How much is 'a trickle'?

somewhere less than a flood....you have no point, or imagination

273 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:34:47pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't read the comments at Yahoo. When my head explodes, my husband says it's all icky and refuses to help clean up the spattered brain matter.

Jules: Oh! Oh! You ready to blow?
Vincent: Yeah, I'm ready to blow.
Jules: Well, I'm a mushroom-cloud-layin' motherfucker, motherfucker! Every time my fingers touch brain, I'm Superfly T.N.T., I'm the Guns of the Navarone! IN FACT, WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOIN' IN THE BACK? YOU'RE THE MOTHERFUCKER WHO SHOULD BE ON BRAIN DETAIL! We're fuckin' switchin'!

(sorry for the profanity...it was one of my favorite parts of the movie)

274 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:34:50pm

re: #272 albusteve

somewhere less than a flood...you have no point, or imagination

How many people to a flood again?

275 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:35:17pm

re: #266 WindUpBird

hahaha I've had them before but admittedly I'm not exactly the picture of Marlboro Man toughness :D

[sub]the problem is when they don't have any good beer on tap[/sub]

When made correctly, apple martinis are wicked tasty.

276 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:35:35pm

Yep. That's right folks. Ignore the fact that under Obama immigration enforcement and deportations have gone up considerably. Heck, he's not doing enough! Still, you can't praise him for that. People might call you an Obot!

//Hur, hur.

//

277 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:35:43pm

re: #238 goddamnedfrank

When they interfere with running a business of public accommodation. Private, members only clubs aren't places of public accommodation, but businesses that are ostensibly (say it with me now) open to the general public, are. You're very close to arguing Rand Paul's position against the Civil Rights Act. I respectfully disagree.

The right of everyone to live in a desegregated society trumps the individual business owners right to be arbitrarily dickish.

Rand Paul- hardly! The guys a dick. My questions are more nuanced.

I think I haven't made myself clear, so give me another shot.

Should a pro life doctor be forced to performs abortions because they are legal?

As I noted in my conversation with Obdi, should a pharmacist be requird to dispense 'Morning After' pills (of which I am in favor)?

The list goes on and on. My question really is about how and where you draw the lines between personal beliefs and prejudices and the public good.

An friend of mine works at Duke Med. One day in the cafeteria, physicians from a different part of the world were not in the least quiet about their feelings toward various minorities. They were challenged and immediately responded that of course they would treat the minorities they were discussing but said their prejudices were valid, etc.

This really is a complicated matter. Just because a licensed professional may belong to the Klan may not be reason enough to take away his license.

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:35:46pm

re: #244 Spare O'Lake

I know it's awfully difficult for those with a vested interest, but to me it's really very simple. You decide on the minimum compliance required in order to have an effective border, and then you do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes.

Spare, you just don't know enough about this topic to have this discussion.

279 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:36:05pm

re: #272 albusteve

somewhere less than a flood...you have no point, or imagination

Insults don't help you at all, Steve, nor do they affect me in the least.

You, also, have no actual yardstick, nothing we could achieve and say, "There, finished". Without an actual metric, there's no possibility of success.

280 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:36:20pm

re: #270 McSpiff

You might as well say "as long as a piece of string". Obi is asking for numbers and he's getting platitudes.

it's moot...no answer is good enough, not even mine, which is a number....so I just pass on the issue rather than mince words

281 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:36:22pm

Does the National Institute of Standards and Technology Weights and Measures Division measure a "trickle?"

How about "a fair piece"? As in, "oh, the farm's a fair piece up thataways."

How many dollops is a scoop?

Is it three toots to a full fart or four?

282 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:37:05pm

re: #238 goddamnedfrank

When they interfere with running a business of public accommodation. Private, members only clubs aren't places of public accommodation, but businesses that are ostensibly (say it with me now) open to the general public, are. You're very close to arguing Rand Paul's position against the Civil Rights Act. I respectfully disagree.

The right of everyone to live in a desegregated society trumps the individual business owners right to be arbitrarily dickish.

oops. gmta. my bad.

283 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:37:06pm

re: #260 WindUpBird

Actually, yeah!

A pharmacist should not be able to elect which meds they can dole out. if wacky religion X tells a pharmacist that all psychoactive meds erode the soul and he refuses to dispense them, he's not a pharmacist, his license should be revoked.

I don't disagree- but as Obdi noted, there are states where pharmacists can do just that.

284 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:37:30pm

re: #280 albusteve

it's moot...no answer is good enough, not even mine, which is a number...so I just pass on the issue rather than mince words

95% is not a number. It's a percentage.

285 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:38:10pm

re: #283 researchok

I don't disagree- but as Obdi noted, there are states where pharmacists can do just that.

And that will change, over time, just as abortion rights have strengthened over time (current revanchism nonwithstanding.)

That is, unless the theocrats take over.

286 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:38:18pm

re: #275 eclectic infidel

When made correctly, apple martinis are wicked tasty.

There's this joint in Portland called "Bartini." BARTINI. The name cracks me up, but damn they make a nice martini! :D

I'm a big fan of the chocolate martini, that's really what passes for dessert around my place...

287 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:38:35pm

re: #275 eclectic infidel

When made correctly, apple martinis are wicked tasty.

i just threw up a little bit

288 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:38:39pm

re: #266 WindUpBird

hahaha I've had them before but admittedly I'm not exactly the picture of Marlboro Man toughness :D

[sub]the problem is when they don't have any good beer on tap[/sub]

You need an emergency beer cooler in the trunk of your car.

Never leave home without it.

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:38:41pm

re: #281 WindUpBird

Does the National Institute of Standards and Technology Weights and Measures Division measure a "trickle?"

How about "a fair piece"? As in, "oh, the farm's a fair piece up thataways."

How many dollops is a scoop?

Is it three toots to a full fart or four?

Visiting the LA relatives, I learned that 'over in creation' is farther than 'over yonder', if that helps.

290 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:38:46pm

re: #274 McSpiff

How many people to a flood again?

well now, nobody knows, do they?
that's the problem, isn't it?
go look up the estimates

291 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:39:20pm

re: #287 Aceofwhat?

i just threw up a little bit

hahaha

did I ever tell you about the patisserie here that makes Rogue Stout floats? (as in beer + ice cream)

THEY'RE GENIUS

292 albusteve  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:39:28pm

re: #284 Obdicut

95% is not a number. It's a percentage.

so was your 100% that initiated my response

293 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:39:38pm

re: #291 WindUpBird

Guinness floats are tasty.

294 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:39:45pm

re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist

Visiting the LA relatives, I learned that 'over in creation' is farther than 'over yonder', if that helps.

"OVER IN CREATION!"

That's awesome!

295 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:40:21pm

re: #292 albusteve

so was your 100% that initiated my response

And I didn't claim it was a number; that'd be the difference.

296 Stanghazi  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:40:36pm

re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist

Visiting the LA relatives, I learned that 'over in creation' is farther than 'over yonder', if that helps.

I hear the accent just reading it!

297 Kruk  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:40:45pm

re: #70 Charles

The wingnuts are hilarious on this issue today. Now Malkin and others are arguing that the judge's ruling is going to strike down all federal immigration laws.

That was Obama's evil plan all along, doubt. My goodness, is he ever sinister.

So Obama manipulated the wingnuts into getting this law passed in the first place? I'm putting more and more stock in the theory he's a Sith Lord.

"The Force has great power over the weak minded".

298 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:41:24pm

re: #291 WindUpBird

hahaha

did I ever tell you about the patisserie here that makes Rogue Stout floats? (as in beer + ice cream)

THEY'RE GENIUS

that is sooo different than an appletini...as in, palatable.

299 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:41:33pm

re: #293 Obdicut

Guinness floats are tasty.

We got this Rogue chocolate stout here that was practically made for making crazy floats out of.

They also do a lambic+strawberry ice cream float, which shouldn't work but it does

300 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:41:47pm

re: #285 Obdicut

And that will change, over time, just as abortion rights have strengthened over time (current revanchism nonwithstanding.)

That is, unless the theocrats take over.

Don't talk to me about theocrats. I'm for gay marriage as well because marriage is a contract endorsed by the state to benefit the state and society. It provides order and continuity. I have no issue with gay marriage.

Matrimony is another thing altogether. That is a religious contract and religions are free to practice as they please.

301 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:41:47pm

Any engineer that believes the earth is 6000 years should be banned from building anything more complicated than a birdhouse.

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:42:09pm

re: #294 WindUpBird

"OVER IN CREATION!"

That's awesome!

As in "that gas station is over in creation, out past Crossett."

303 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:42:14pm

re: #277 researchok

You're right about the klan thing and I tried to clarify that point later. Take the phrase "As a professional engineer, I support the Klan" and rewrite it as "As a wal-mart employee, I support Klan". If you think the employee can be fired, then you can reasonably think that the engineer should lose his ability to call himself a professional engineer and the privileges that entails.

As far as the rest of the post goes... Well, we are taught that being a professional engineer is a privilege and not a right, much like driving. Society, through the legislative branch and the powers it delegates to the professional society, makes its requirements for that privilege clear. If you can't live up to them, you don't get to be a professional engineer.

304 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:42:15pm

re: #298 Aceofwhat?

that is sooo different than an appletini...as in, palatable.

there's just something magnificent about taking a swishy martini up to the karaoke mic and then busting out Motorhead

305 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:42:44pm

Here's something to think about.

50 percent of illegal immigrants from "south of the border" cross the Mexican-US border. The other 50 percent enter legally. Mexicans make up only 57 percent of the illegal population. The balance of the origin is made up from other nations.

Essentially, this focus on the border is only a "57 percent" solution. There's more to immigration law and enforcement then "the border."

306 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:43:43pm

re: #277 researchok

Rand Paul- hardly! The guys a dick. My questions are more nuanced.

...

Should a pro life doctor be forced to performs abortions because they are legal?

Being a "pro life" doctor, it's doubtful they would ever have chosen to become certified in that procedure. If the doctor doesn't perform the procedure for anyone, then they won't have the opportunity to discriminate in its use.

307 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:43:59pm

re: #299 WindUpBird

We got this Rogue chocolate stout here that was practically made for making crazy floats out of.

They also do a lambic+strawberry ice cream float, which shouldn't work but it does

That actually sounds quite awesome, in a terrible way. Maybe we'll make those for the bachelorette party I'm hosting in September.

308 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:44:07pm

re: #303 McSpiff

You're right about the klan thing and I tried to clarify that point later. Take the phrase "As a professional engineer, I support the Klan" and rewrite it as "As a wal-mart employee, I support Klan". If you think the employee can be fired, then you can reasonably think that the engineer should lose his ability to call himself a professional engineer and the privileges that entails.

As far as the rest of the post goes... Well, we are taught that being a professional engineer is a privilege and not a right, much like driving. Society, through the legislative branch and the powers it delegates to the professional society, makes its requirements for that privilege clear. If you can't live up to them, you don't get to be a professional engineer.

I'm telling you, these are really tough calls.

309 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:44:17pm

re: #305 Gus 802

Here's something to think about.

50 percent of illegal immigrants from "south of the border" cross the Mexican-US border. The other 50 percent enter legally. Mexicans make up only 57 percent of the illegal population. The balance of the origin is made up from other nations.

Essentially, this focus on the border is only a "57 percent" solution. There's more to immigration law and enforcement then "the border."

Actually it would be less than 57 percent since almost 50 percent of those came in legally at one point.

310 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:44:17pm

re: #305 Gus 802

Here's something to think about.

50 percent of illegal immigrants from "south of the border" cross the Mexican-US border. The other 50 percent enter legally. Mexicans make up only 57 percent of the illegal population. The balance of the origin is made up from other nations.

Essentially, this focus on the border is only a "57 percent" solution. There's more to immigration law and enforcement then "the border."

Doesn't that make it a 28.5% solution, since half get in legally? :D

311 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:44:40pm

re: #310 WindUpBird

Doesn't that make it a 28.5% solution, since half get in legally? :D

See above. ;) (309)

312 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:44:46pm

re: #305 Gus 802

Here's something to think about.

50 percent of illegal immigrants from "south of the border" cross the Mexican-US border. The other 50 percent enter legally. Mexicans make up only 57 percent of the illegal population. The balance of the origin is made up from other nations.

Essentially, this focus on the border is only a "57 percent" solution. There's more to immigration law and enforcement then "the border."

Yeah, but strolling up and down the desert with guns is a LOT more fun than strolling up and down a hallway with documents.

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:44:55pm

re: #307 SanFranciscoZionist

That actually sounds quite awesome, in a terrible way. Maybe we'll make those for the bachelorette party I'm hosting in September.

yeah! Just get some lindeman's lambic and try it out, they're quite good.

314 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:45:33pm

re: #313 WindUpBird

yeah! Just get some lindeman's lambic and try it out, they're quite good.

Yes the "kriek" is my favorite (cherry)

315 Gus  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:45:48pm

re: #312 wrenchwench

Yeah, but strolling up and down the desert with guns is a LOT more fun than strolling up and down a hallway with documents.

And going after illegal Canadians!

There's about 60,000 illegal Canadians in the USA. We should start with them first.

//

316 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:45:51pm

re: #301 Amory Blaine

Any engineer that believes the earth is 6000 years should be banned from building anything more complicated than a birdhouse.

I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.

317 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:45:59pm

re: #309 Gus 802

re: #310 WindUpBird

Please don't change the math. I have already responded.

/

318 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:46:24pm

re: #306 goddamnedfrank

Being a "pro life" doctor, it's doubtful they would ever have chosen to become certified in that procedure. If the doctor doesn't perform the procedure for anyone, then they won't have the opportunity to discriminate in its use.

But doctors do learn the procedure (D&C). In any event, you can see where I'm going with this. These really are tough questions

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:46:35pm

re: #315 Gus 802

And going after illegal Canadians!

There's about 60,000 illegal Canadians in the USA. We should start with them first.

//

Cops identify them by their Leafs jerseys and their distinctive and offensive politeness

320 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:46:58pm

re: #308 researchok

I'm telling you, these are really tough calls.

You might find them tough, but the law in this case is clear and the precedent well established.

321 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:47:27pm

re: #301 Amory Blaine

Any engineer that believes the earth is 6000 years should be banned from building anything more complicated than a birdhouse.

come on, be nice, people with wacky beliefs have been making mighty and insane buildings for millenia :D

322 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:47:52pm

re: #319 WindUpBird

Cops identify them by their Leafs jerseys and their distinctive and offensive politeness

Toronto..polite? Does not compute.

323 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:48:01pm

re: #304 WindUpBird

there's just something magnificent about taking a swishy martini up to the karaoke mic and then busting out Motorhead

i can't disagree with that. i'm no hater...i don't like fruity but i can hang with fruity...you dig?

324 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:48:15pm

re: #316 Aceofwhat?

I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.

If an engineer doesn't understand the time it takes to form rock, then no.

325 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:48:19pm

re: #322 McSpiff

Toronto..polite? Does not compute.

Stop messing up my stereotype! XD

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:48:21pm

re: #321 WindUpBird

come on, be nice, people with wacky beliefs have been making mighty and insane buildings for millenia :D

Yeah, I assume the Chartres Cathedral, say, was built by a guy with rather old-fashioned religious beliefs...not to mention Stonehenge...

327 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:48:23pm

re: #322 McSpiff

Toronto..polite? Does not compute.

Are you in Canada?

328 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:48:48pm

re: #327 researchok

Are you in Canada?

Yup, east coast.

329 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:49:17pm

re: #328 McSpiff

Yup, east coast.

Nova Scotia?

330 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:49:31pm

re: #329 Amory Blaine

Nova Scotia?

Indeed

331 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:49:54pm

re: #318 researchok

But doctors do learn the procedure (D&C). In any event, you can see where I'm going with this. These really are tough questions

No, generally they do not learn the procedure:

Statistics indicate that approximately 33% of women will have an abortion during their lives, but medical education on abortion care is spotty at best. First and second year med students rarely receive any education at all about abortion. Third and fourth year students hardly ever see abortions performed during their clinical rotations and surgical simulations in the classroom are nearly unheard of. And medical residents spend all their time at hospitals, while nearly all abortions are performed in private clinics, not hospitals.

332 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:49:56pm

re: #324 Amory Blaine

If an engineer doesn't understand the time it takes to form rock, then no.

An engineer doesn't have to, though. Or they can think that it takes that amount of time according to natural processes, but God did it anyway.

Should we ban anyone who believes at all in astrology from doing, well, anything?

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:50:03pm

re: #323 Aceofwhat?

i can't disagree with that. i'm no hater...i don't like fruity but i can hang with fruity...you dig?

Basically what happens with me is the drunker I get, the weirder my drink orders get, because the place I generally get trashed at doesn't have anything but Hef and Pabst on tap :D So it's like uhhh, how about a margarita? How about a singapore sling? How bouta *hic*

334 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:50:05pm

re: #260 WindUpBird

I think some pharms have been exempted by request re: PlanB.

335 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:50:08pm

re: #328 McSpiff

Yup, east coast.

Man, I love Montreal! What a fantastic place! Best city in Canada (at least the places I visited).

336 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:50:42pm

re: #335 researchok

Man, I love Montreal! What a fantastic place! Best city in Canada (at least the places I visited).

Hoping to head up there the weekend after next actually, can't wait! Either that or NYC.

337 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:50:49pm

re: #330 McSpiff

Indeed

TPB for the win!!!!

338 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:51:18pm

re: #332 Obdicut

An engineer doesn't have to, though. Or they can think that it takes that amount of time according to natural processes, but God did it anyway.

Should we ban anyone who believes at all in astrology from doing, well, anything?

The answer is obviously yes

339 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:51:19pm

re: #324 Amory Blaine

If an engineer doesn't understand the time it takes to form rock, then no.

see #326. i'm not biting my tongue because your opinion offends me in any way, but rather because i find your logic to be roughly as effective as the logic typically put forward to explain the 6,000 year-old earth that you rightly lampoon...

340 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:51:33pm

re: #332 Obdicut

An engineer doesn't have to, though. Or they can think that it takes that amount of time according to natural processes, but God did it anyway.

Should we ban anyone who believes at all in astrology from doing, well, anything?

Perhaps but it's quite a stretch. You know physics and all.

341 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:51:50pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

They found another Henge! ~~ maidens dancing at sunrise~~
[Link: www.articleant.com...]

342 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:52:00pm

re: #337 Amory Blaine

TPB for the win!!!

Haha only thing we're known for I swear!

...I live about 20 minutes from the old set, and have gotten right hammered with Bubbles.

343 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:52:16pm

re: #334 prairiefire

I think some pharms have been exempted by request re: PlanB.

yeah I know there's some states which allow that. :P

I get so tired of people calling the morning after pill an abortion pill, ARGH

344 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:52:38pm

re: #342 McSpiff

Haha only thing we're known for I swear!

...I live about 20 minutes from the old set, and have gotten right hammered with Bubbles.

Sweet that's a goal of mine, to drink at Bubbles mansion.

345 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:52:57pm

re: #335 researchok

Man, I love Montreal! What a fantastic place! Best city in Canada (at least the places I visited).

We had a great time in Montreal. We stayed at the Holiday Inn in China Town within walking distance of everything.

346 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:53:09pm

re: #333 WindUpBird

Basically what happens with me is the drunker I get, the weirder my drink orders get, because the place I generally get trashed at doesn't have anything but Hef and Pabst on tap :D So it's like uhhh, how about a margarita? How about a singapore sling? How bouta *hic*

you should try a hillbilly lemonade = PBR + 3 fingers of lemonade. in the summer, it's shockingly palatable.

347 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:53:17pm

re: #336 McSpiff

Hoping to head up there the weekend after next actually, can't wait! Either that or NYC.

I've been to Halifax as well. Pretty surprised- it is not the backwater the people in TO said it was.

Not at all.

348 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:53:38pm

re: #324 Amory Blaine

If an engineer doesn't understand the time it takes to form rock, then no.

There are guys who are building amazing drag racers in their garage who honestly probably couldn't spell aluminum, it's honestly not necessary :D

349 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:53:39pm

re: #344 Amory Blaine

Sweet that's a goal of mine, to drink at Bubbles mansion.

I got some bad news...

[Link: www.cbc.ca...]

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:54:40pm

re: #343 WindUpBird

yeah I know there's some states which allow that. :P

I get so tired of people calling the morning after pill an abortion pill, ARGH

As someone who's taken it, DOUBLE ARGH.

351 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:54:43pm

re: #286 WindUpBird

There's this joint in Portland called "Bartini." BARTINI. The name cracks me up, but damn they make a nice martini! :D

I'm a big fan of the chocolate martini, that's really what passes for dessert around my place...

I wish I could handle that, but the sweetness overrides my taste buds and I'm usually unable to finish the drink. Sabra served neat works well.

352 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:54:50pm

re: #340 Amory Blaine

Perhaps but it's quite a stretch. You know physics and all.

Astrology makes no sense on any level whatsoever and violates every part of physics, too.

My point is: Humans are capable of holding irrational beliefs and not letting it affect other things they do. Laws preventing people from having irrational beliefs that do affect what they do make sense.

If that engineer though that god wouldn't let any of his buildings fall down because he was holy, or that buildings falling down had nothing to do with the way they were constructed but because of fate, that'd be a problem.

BUt if he believes the whole universe is a holographic image, it doesn't even matter, as long as the way he acts is in accordance with engineering standards.

Thought, action -- very different.

353 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:54:52pm

re: #340 Amory Blaine

Perhaps but it's quite a stretch. You know physics and all.

one baby step away from "religion = nonsense = no soup for you". nice work!

354 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:55:03pm

re: #346 Aceofwhat?

you should try a hillbilly lemonade = PBR + 3 fingers of lemonade. in the summer, it's shockingly palatable.

Done it! That's also called a shandy, or a Radler if you're German

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:55:11pm

re: #346 Aceofwhat?

you should try a hillbilly lemonade = PBR + 3 fingers of lemonade. in the summer, it's shockingly palatable.

A shandy, they call that in England, except they make it with their version of 'lemonade', which is essentially Sprite.

356 McSpiff  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:55:20pm

re: #347 researchok

I've been to Halifax as well. Pretty surprised- it is not the backwater the people in TO said it was.

Not at all.

As far as college cities goes, its not bad at all. Has a pretty vibrant downtown, usually something on the go. Our jazz fest just wrapped up, that was fun.

357 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:55:20pm

re: #349 McSpiff

I got some bad news...

[Link: www.cbc.ca...]

Noooooo! It's all Leheys fault!!!!

358 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:55:29pm

re: #355 SanFranciscoZionist

A shandy, they call that in England, except they make it with their version of 'lemonade', which is essentially Sprite.

JINX

359 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:56:13pm

re: #345 prairiefire

We had a great time in Montreal. We stayed at the Holiday Inn in China Town within walking distance of everything.

Yup.

It really is a fantastic place. I loved the Old City. The food is incredible, the music superb and smoked meat and poutine have spoiled me.

We ate our way through the town. Seriosuly, there is no bad food there.

Crescent and Mountain streets have some great places. Best bakeries on the planet are on Boul Saint Laurent.

360 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:56:35pm

re: #335 researchok

Man, I love Montreal! What a fantastic place! Best city in Canada (at least the places I visited).

I wanna gooo

That's where all the Unibroue comes from *_*

361 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:56:51pm

re: #352 Obdicut

Astrology makes no sense on any level whatsoever and violates every part of physics, too.

My point is: Humans are capable of holding irrational beliefs and not letting it affect other things they do. Laws preventing people from having irrational beliefs that do affect what they do make sense.

If that engineer though that god wouldn't let any of his buildings fall down because he was holy, or that buildings falling down had nothing to do with the way they were constructed but because of fate, that'd be a problem.

BUt if he believes the whole universe is a holographic image, it doesn't even matter, as long as the way he acts is in accordance with engineering standards.

Thought, action -- very different.

Well said. Intelligence is a far cry from intellect.

362 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:56:55pm

re: #352 Obdicut

Astrology makes no sense on any level whatsoever and violates every part of physics, too.

My point is: Humans are capable of holding irrational beliefs and not letting it affect other things they do. Laws preventing people from having irrational beliefs that do affect what they do make sense.

If that engineer though that god wouldn't let any of his buildings fall down because he was holy, or that buildings falling down had nothing to do with the way they were constructed but because of fate, that'd be a problem.

BUt if he believes the whole universe is a holographic image, it doesn't even matter, as long as the way he acts is in accordance with engineering standards.

Thought, action -- very different.

Agreed then. My argument hold no water.

363 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:56:58pm

re: #354 WindUpBird

re: #355 SanFranciscoZionist

i did not know that...nicely done-

364 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:57:39pm

re: #360 WindUpBird

I wanna gooo

That's where all the Unibroue comes from *_*

They have a microbrewery there- unreal. Hold on, I'll look it up.

365 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:57:58pm

re: #362 Amory Blaine

Agreed then. My argument hold no water.

Good on ya. All respect.

366 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:58:08pm

dang. 143 comments upstairs, without a lull here. we're rocking the boat...

367 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:58:49pm

re: #364 researchok

They have a microbrewery there- unreal. Hold on, I'll look it up.

Oh, it's like a world class Belgian style micro brewery, it's such good stuff

368 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 2:59:30pm

Dieu du Ciel

Unfreakinbelievable.

369 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:00:19pm

re: #368 researchok

Dieu du Ciel

Unfreakinbelievable.

I've had one of their beers! The aphrodisiac chocolate stout. OH man so good

370 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:00:29pm

re: #367 WindUpBird

Oh, it's like a world class Belgian style micro brewery, it's such good stuff

As far as beer goes, those places take your world from black and white to color.

371 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:01:06pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

dang. 143 comments upstairs, without a lull here. we're rocking the boat...

It's the company you keep...

372 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:01:52pm

re: #370 researchok

As far as beer goes, those places take your world from black and white to color.

I was in Bruges about ten years ago, I about lost my mind, the beer was so good. Little corner pubs with just the most amazing things on tap

373 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:03:13pm

re: #372 WindUpBird

I was in Bruges about ten years ago, I about lost my mind, the beer was so good. Little corner pubs with just the most amazing things on tap

I know exactly what you mean.

Same applies to the food. You can't even begin to explain the difference between bread and butter there vs bread and butter here.

374 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:04:08pm

re: #373 researchok

I know exactly what you mean.

Same applies to the food. You can't even begin to explain the difference between bread and butter there vs bread and butter here.

Have you been to the Jazz Festival in Montreal? Or the Comedy Festival?

375 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:04:52pm

re: #372 WindUpBird

I was in Bruges about ten years ago, I about lost my mind, the beer was so good. Little corner pubs with just the most amazing things on tap

great city. looks almost exactly like it did 600 years ago...i always thought it was a little surreal because i had to keep reminding myself that people actually lived there, and that it wasn't just a big theme park.

376 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:05:46pm

re: #374 researchok

the best part about someone asking themselves a question is when the answer is a surprise/

377 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:06:02pm

re: #375 Aceofwhat?

great city. looks almost exactly like it did 600 years ago...i always thought it was a little surreal because i had to keep reminding myself that people actually lived there, and that it wasn't just a big theme park.

Same applies to Krakow, in Poland. One of the few cities untouched by the war. Quite extraordinary- and beautiful.

378 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:07:10pm

re: #376 Aceofwhat?

the best part about someone asking themselves a question is when the answer is a surprise/

Yeah, I get carried away.

I really love the city. My two favorite cities in NA are SF and MTL.

By far.

379 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:07:35pm

re: #359 researchok

There was also a fantastic Korean bakery and an authentic Chinese course dinner restaurant. Just look for the crowds.
We watched the laser light show at the Cathedral. There is a fantastic kid's Science Museum: [Link: www.montrealsciencecentre.com...]

There was a big screen interactive theater with a simulated Snowbird Jet fighter flying maneuvers.

I was 2nd out of the theater with how many points I earned in the jet roll over sequence. I did not let my brothers forget.

380 garhighway  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:08:09pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

I find it astonishing that areas have so few citizens present that we are so dependent on the undocumented alien community to report. Or that a 911 burglary call would elicit an Immigration inquiry. I suspect much of this has been exaggerated and conflated by the illegal immigration activists.

I seem to recall a lot of police chiefs disagreeing with the AZ law for that reason: it would cost them a lot of potential witnesses. Are police chiefs "illegal immigration activists"?

381 researchok  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:09:05pm

re: #379 prairiefire

There was also a fantastic Korean bakery and an authentic Chinese course dinner restaurant. Just look for the crowds.
We watched the laser light show at the Cathedral. There is a fantastic kid's Science Museum: [Link: www.montrealsciencecentre.com...]

There was a big screen interactive theater with a simulated Snowbird Jet fighter flying maneuvers.

I was 2nd out of the theater with how many points I earned in the jet roll over sequence. I did not let my brothers forget.

Maybe I'll go back for a weekend in the fall.

Those bakeries...

382 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:28:18pm

re: #368 researchok

Dieu du Ciel

Unfreakinbelievable.

Wow. We are going to go back sometime w/o the kids. Europe at Canada prices.

383 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 4:34:04pm

re: #380 garhighway

What they are is underfunded or perhaps overworked. And easily conscripted in to the illegal immigration activist rhetoric. The open borders crowd, that claims it's gone so far, we may not enforce even the Federal law. Amazing-Crime is impossible to enforce adequately without the input/reports of the undocumented immigrant population.

An explicit admission of laws enforcement FAIL. Wow.

384 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 5:23:08pm

re: #383 Rightwingconspirator

What they are is underfunded or perhaps overworked. And easily conscripted in to the illegal immigration activist rhetoric. The open borders crowd, that claims it's gone so far, we may not enforce even the Federal law. Amazing-Crime is impossible to enforce adequately without the input/reports of the undocumented immigrant population.

An explicit admission of laws enforcement FAIL. Wow.


I don't think that's a fair characterization of AZ LEOs. They oppose the law because it would make their job more difficult, and it opens them up to lawsuits from citizens who want to blame them for not checking somebody's ID. The problem with local law enforcement using Federal law has nothing to do with the number of illegal aliens here.

I don't see the admission of failure that you mention.

385 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 5:34:35pm

re: #384 wrenchwench

Police Officers have really wide immunity against civil lawsuits. They would be defended by the state Attorney. Every law added to the enforcement list makes the job harder. The problenm then would be resources. Well then the fix is apply the resources, not fail to enforce Federal statutes. The admission is implicit in their contentions about this. The really big fail, arguably by the Feds is failing to enforce the Reagan era immigration "amnesty" law. well we got the amnesty part to work but the rest failed, got us where we are now.

386 mich-again  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 7:32:05pm

Even without this law, Arizona can do a lot of things to reduce the number of illegal immigrants. First and foremost in my mind is to use the laws that are already on the books to catch and prosecute the people and businesses that hire illegal immigrants and pay them with cash. They do that so they can avoid paying all the proper taxes and insurance benefits. F-em. Throw the book at them. If they claim they can't stay in business without the illegals providing the cheap labor, tough beans. This is just as much a demand problem as it is a supply problem.

Arizona's law was wrong in my mind, and I'm not surprised on bit the judge ruled as she did. I expect the same decision from the Supremes if they take it that far. There are plenty of laws already on the books. Enforce them. Isn't that the same thing the NRA says about new gun control laws? There are already enough laws, enforce them before writing any new ones.

387 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:51:32am

re: #51 stonemason

This wingnut would, are you saying we need to have a religious test in order to graduate from state schools?

Really?

You simply cannot be an effective counselor if you start from the position of condemning a significant proportion of the population. Therapists aren't there to judge their clients. The school has every right to not offer its credentials to anyone who is unqualified for work in the field. A fundamentalist who hates gays is NOT fit to do this kind of work.


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