The DHS Plot Thickens

US News • Views: 2,506

All you folks seething and yelling about the DHS report on “right wing extremism,” make sure to save some of your anger for the FBI, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations, and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, because they’re in on the plot to demonize conservatives and veterans too.

FBI documents show the bureau was working with investigators inside the nation’s uniformed services “in an effort to identify those current or former soldiers who pose a domestic terrorism threat.” The other agencies working with the FBI are the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

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339 comments
1 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:57:23am

my head is swirling ... make it stop ! ....

2 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:58:16am

re: #1 JacksonTn

my head is swirling ... make it stop ! ....

tighten the noose!

3 NYCHardhat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:58:27am

Please continue to do your job. You know who you are.

4 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:58:33am

Remember when Republicans valued national security? Those were the days.

5 Athens Runaway  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:59:15am

NCIS is in on it? There's no way that Abby and Ducky be traitors. Plus, Ziva is a Zionist dontchaknow. Case closed! [/semi-serious]

6 Shug  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:59:36am

I'm outraged!
Nowhere does the DHS report mention clowns!

/

7 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:59:48am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Remember when Republicans valued national security? Those were the days.

Killgore ... remember when "Anyone" valued national security? ... now those were the days ...

8 NYCHardhat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:59:56am

Clowntown! Going to Clowntown!

9 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:59:59am
FBI documents show the bureau was working with investigators inside the nation’s uniformed services “in an effort to identify those current or former soldiers who pose a domestic terrorism threat.”

Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else that many of the folks yelling and screaming about this seem to have made an assumption that whenever the word "soldiers" appears, it is some sort of code for "right-wing".

As far as I know, members of our armed services have all sorts of different political points of view.

10 elBarto  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:00:02am

Why are neo nazis considered right wing?

11 NYCHardhat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:00:50am

re: #10 elBarto

Why are neo nazis considered right wing?

fascism is a extreme right ideology.

12 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:04am

re: #10 elBarto

Why are neo nazis considered right wing?

Because Jonah Goldberg's historical revisionism is completely bogus.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:07am

I can't believe this needs to be said, but Neo-nazis need to be watched. Always. Veterans or not.

Anyone who professes a belief in extra-legal violence as a means to an end should be watched, regardless of ideology.

14 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:16am

Folks, the military polices it's own and keeps tabs on prior members. No organization allows people access to top secret information and trains them in skills most ordinary people wouldn't dream about without a little bit of oversight and vigilance. I hate to break it to all you seethers out there but when you join the military, you LOSE some of your rights. Did you hear me correctly? Yes you did, you LOSE some of your constitutional rights when you sign up. It's part of the package and believe me, it is necessary to ensure good order and discipline.

15 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:17am

No surprise here, BTW. The FBI falls under DoHS, and even though the the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations, and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service are all autonomous, the report states The other agencies working with the FBI , so anything they come up with would fall under DoHS territory

16 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:23am
Michael Ward, FBI deputy assistant director for counterterrorism, said in an interview Thursday that the portion of the operation focusing on the military related only to veterans who draw the attention of Defense Department officials for joining white-supremacist or other extremist groups.

"We're not doing an investigation into the military, we're not looking at former military members," he said. "It would have to be something they were concerned about, or someone they're concerned is involved" with extremist groups.

Mr. Ward said that the FBI's general counsel reviewed the operation before it began, "to make sure any tripwires we set do not violate any civil liberties."

Isn't that what DHS said too?

17 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:44am

My issue with the report has nothing to do with what the FBI and other agencies are actually investigating. It never has been.

My issue with the DHS report remains that (hello?!) not one of the incidents that people have posted about were mentioned, nor are the connections of these various evil people mentioned. The DHS report is so vague as to be useless to anyone at all, and apt to inspire paranoia.

As it has.

Of course there are extremists. My problem is that that stupid report was not useful!

18 elBarto  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:53am

11 Facism is an off shoot of socialism. Musolini was a socialist before he came up with facism. NAZI is short for National Socialist German Workers Party. Hardly sounds right wing to me.

19 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:02:57am

re: #10 elBarto

Why are neo nazis considered right wing?

They call themselves right wing. They have extreme right wing views. They are right wing extremists.

20 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:03:11am

Heard on news, no link:
Stephen Hawking rushed to hospital. Per broadcast, he is very ill. (chest infection, they said)

21 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:04:16am

re: #17 Dianna

The DHS report is so vague as to be useless to anyone at all, and apt to inspire paranoia.


You should read the report. It gives very specific examples including the names of individuals and organizations.

22 NYCHardhat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:04:19am

re: #17 Dianna

My issue with the report has nothing to do with what the FBI and other agencies are actually investigating. It never has been.

My issue with the DHS report remains that (hello?!) not one of the incidents that people have posted about were mentioned, nor are the connections of these various evil people mentioned. The DHS report is so vague as to be useless to anyone at all, and apt to inspire paranoia.

As it has.

Of course there are extremists. My problem is that that stupid report was not useful!

Yes. It did more harm than good. And while under the Obama administration, everyone is on edge.

23 lifeofthemind  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:04:32am

Can we get Kos listed as a former soldier with extreme views that are used to justify violence?

24 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:04:34am

re: #20 Wishing

Bummer.

25 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:04:39am

re: #16 Sharmuta

Isn't that what DHS said too?

Not clearly enough.

Every time I re-read that report, the more irate I become. It's just so badly written and so vague.

26 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:04:47am

re: #17 Dianna

My issue with the report has nothing to do with what the FBI and other agencies are actually investigating. It never has been.

My issue with the DHS report remains that (hello?!) not one of the incidents that people have posted about were mentioned, nor are the connections of these various evil people mentioned. The DHS report is so vague as to be useless to anyone at all, and apt to inspire paranoia.

As it has.

Of course there are extremists. My problem is that that stupid report was not useful!

It was not intended to be a specific report on specific cases. It's a study on the process of radicalization -- what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist.

27 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:05:16am

re: #19 Charles

They call themselves right wing. They have extreme right wing views. They are right wing extremists.

They also call themselves loyal and real Americans.

I could call myself (and often do) the Queen Of The May. Doesn't make it so!

//

just sayin!

28 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:05:27am

re: #11 NYCHardhat

fascism is a extreme right ideology.

It may be that neo-naziism is a far right ideology, but not because of fascism.

The original nazis were socialists. Mussolini was a fascist and it is unclear where on the political spectrum his brand of fascism falls.

29 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:05:31am

It's part of the package? Huh? Yes, that's true, provided that you are currently under contract. Last month my IRR time ended as my 8 year contract expired. I currently owe nothing more to the military. What constitutional rights, pray tell, have I lost for all eternity?

30 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:05:33am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

You should read the report. It gives very specific examples including the names of individuals and organizations.

Timothy McVeigh...isn't that the only name mentioned?

31 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:05:33am

re: #10 elBarto

Because some people think that individual rights and states' right trump the federal government's right to exist. They don't.

32 SteveC  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:05:56am

re: #1 JacksonTn

my head is swirling ... make it stop ! ....

Stop[ the Merry-Go-Round, I wanna get off. *Barf*

33 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:06:00am

Here we go with the "no true Scotsman" arguments again.

34 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:06:02am
35 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:06:17am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

You should read the report. It gives very specific examples including the names of individuals and organizations.

I have read it. Several times.

And it's not specific. It's vague.

36 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:06:24am

re: #30 Wishing

Timothy McVeigh...isn't that the only name mentioned?

Did you read the report?

37 jdog29  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:07:19am

re: #10 elBarto

Why are neo nazis considered right wing?

Because they're an idiot. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought the question was why would anyone ask why are neo nazis considered right wing?

38 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:07:24am

re: #20 Wishing

Heard on news, no link:
Stephen Hawking rushed to hospital. Per broadcast, he is very ill. (chest infection, they said)

Here's a link:
Scientist Hawking ill in hospital

39 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:07:26am

Stephen Hawking Very ill

40 Stonemason  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:07:48am

re: #18 elBarto

11 Facism is an off shoot of socialism. Musolini was a socialist before he came up with facism. NAZI is short for National Socialist German Workers Party. Hardly sounds right wing to me.

Sorry Dude, fight it all you want, there are Right Wing Extremeists that want to kill people that are not like them. I want my government to keep an eye on those people, and this report is telling me that my government is keeping an eye on those people.
There have been other reports that single out leftists too, it is a smart thing to watch people that want to kill other people.

41 livefreeor die  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:07:59am

re: #20 Wishing

Heard on news, no link:
Stephen Hawking rushed to hospital. Per broadcast, he is very ill. (chest infection, they said)

I just saw that too. It's incredible that he has lived this long with his condition. My husband and I saw him speak at our school twenty years ago. He gave an absolutely amazing lecture using his speech board.

42 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:08:01am

re: #36 Charles

Did you read the report?

Of course, the day it was released.

43 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:08:04am

re: #29 Radar G

It's part of the package? Huh? Yes, that's true, provided that you are currently under contract. Last month my IRR time ended as my 8 year contract expired. I currently owe nothing more to the military. What constitutional rights, pray tell, have I lost for all eternity?

Once you are no longer under contract to the military you obviously regain what you lost. I don't know for a fact but my guess is the report (albeit not clear in this point) was referring to veterans who are still in IRR.

44 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:08:31am

re: #38 yma o hyd

Here's a link:
Scientist Hawking ill in hospital

Ha! beat me by 2 seconds!

45 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:08:32am

re: #33 Charles

Here we go with the "no true Scotsman" arguments again.

Pardon my ignorance ( everyone I know does anyway ) but what is that?

46 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:08:50am

re: #17 Dianna
I agree. It was so general, it was useless.
The rub for me was why was it released at all? There were no specifics that could improve public safety.

47 SteveC  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:08:50am

Durbin II: Electric Boogaloo is going well. Dinner Jacket made a speech denying the Holocaust and said Israel was a "Racist Regime." Lot of delegates decided they didn't want to watch this movie; stormed the box office wanting a refund.

48 elBarto  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:09:05am

37 Are you calling me an idiot?

Because they're an idiot. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought the question was why would anyone ask why are neo nazis considered right wing?

Seriously?

49 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:09:18am

re: #26 Charles

It was not intended to be a specific report on specific cases. It's a study on the process of radicalization -- what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist.

Charles, there's no discussion of methodology, propaganda, or any other specific recruitment methods. It's all vague.

I have issues with this.

There are extremists. There are people who need to be regarded with extreme wariness. But they won't be found by anything in that report.

50 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:09:21am

I'm just going to say this again concerning right-wing extremists:

Well- in the case of the radical paulians, it's not much more simple than what I've already stated. They see the current system as broken, and the way to get back to "smaller, less intrusive government" (in their minds) is to break the current contract (the Constitution) and re-establish it anew (which is meaningless, because it's an already broken contract with no authority). Instead of abiding by the democratically agreed system, they seek to replace our existing authority with their own. But we'll get back to that.

Additionally- this has a lot to do with nationalism. Clearly not left wing thinking, which is multi-cultural/international in its scope. When taken to its extremes, nationalism can lead to such things as genocide and secession (where have we heard that lately?).

Now, back to the Constitution-

Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint.

-The Federalist Papers

When We the People agreed to live under the Constitution, we conceded some of our rights to the government in exchange for limitation on government power to protect our remaining rights. It was a trade-off. The Constitution limits the power of government with internal checks and balances, and The Bill of Rights guarantees remaining powers that belong to the People.

It is those on the right who mistake individual rights and states' rights as trumping the right of the Federal government to also exist. They have that right because our forefathers granted that to them by ratifying the Constitution. So if you want to continue to delude yourself that radical/violent anti-Federal government ideology is not extreme right-wing thinking, knock yourself out.

51 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:09:30am

re: #9 reine.de.tout

Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else that many of the folks yelling and screaming about this seem to have made an assumption that whenever the word "soldiers" appears, it is some sort of code for "right-wing".

As far as I know, members of our armed services have all sorts of different political points of view.

Well not in this case, if you dig into it you find that they are pretty much just evaluating if there is a problem with returning members of WN groups who are vets. It's reasonable, and if the weather underground had members returning (highly unlikely) it'd be reasonable to assess if that were a problem too. Fortunately for us, WU and ALF type people eschew the military.

52 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:09:32am

re: #45 Nevergiveup

Pardon my ignorance ( everyone I know does anyway ) but what is that?

"Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."
—Antony Flew, Thinking about Thinking (1975)

53 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:00am

re: #9 reine.de.tout

Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else that many of the folks yelling and screaming about this seem to have made an assumption that whenever the word "soldiers" appears, it is some sort of code for "right-wing".

As far as I know, members of our armed services have all sorts of different political points of view.

I get the impression that it is not allowed to be mentioned in any negative context, just in case some morons think it applies to all.

Don't we have more important dangers to be preoccupied with, like Islam?////

54 Stonemason  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:05am

re: #29 Radar G

It's part of the package? Huh? Yes, that's true, provided that you are currently under contract. Last month my IRR time ended as my 8 year contract expired. I currently owe nothing more to the military. What constitutional rights, pray tell, have I lost for all eternity?

Thank you for your service.

If you hang out with those who spout hate, you will be branded a hater, and will be watched, service or no service.

55 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:10am

re: #45 Nevergiveup

Pardon my ignorance ( everyone I know does anyway ) but what is that?

No true Scotsman:

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."

56 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:10am

re: #44 Wishing

Ha! beat me by 2 seconds!

Aww - thats the first time evah I beat another Lizard in 'links at dawn'!

;-)

57 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:12am

re: #52 jaunte

"Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."
—Antony Flew, Thinking about Thinking (1975)

Thanks

58 JustMyView  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:18am

re: #15 sattv4u2

No surprise here, BTW. The FBI falls under DoHS, and even though the the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations, and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service are all autonomous, the report states The other agencies working with the FBI , so anything they come up with would fall under DoHS territory

No, the FBI is part of the Department of Justice.

59 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:30am
60 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:37am

re: #55 Charles

And thank-you also

61 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:46am

re: #30 Wishing

Timothy McVeigh...isn't that the only name mentioned?

I think it mentions someone more recent, Poplawski iirc

62 jdog29  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:11:04am

re: #48 elBarto

37 Are you calling me an idiot?


Seriously?

Of course not, and I resent the implication that I am.

63 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:11:09am

re: #59 buzzsawmonkey

Nicely said.

Thank you.

64 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:11:23am

re: #26 Charles

It was not intended to be a specific report on specific cases. It's a study on the process of radicalization -- what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist.

There's plenty of case material to work with on both sides of the ideological divide. That the military is involved in the research and looking out for such individuals is good news. It's also why the military does spend quite a bit of time going through psychological evaluations.

Some people who go into the military are already predisposed to such intentions, regardless of the training.

65 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:11:42am

re: #61 Thanos

I think it mentions someone more recent, Poplawski iirc

It also mentions the Christian Identity weirdos.

66 outsidephilly  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:11:43am

re: #14 Jetpilot1101

Folks, the military polices it's own and keeps tabs on prior members. No organization allows people access to top secret information and trains them in skills most ordinary people wouldn't dream about without a little bit of oversight and vigilance. I hate to break it to all you seethers out there but when you join the military, you LOSE some of your rights. Did you hear me correctly? Yes you did, you LOSE some of your constitutional rights when you sign up. It's part of the package and believe me, it is necessary to ensure good order and discipline.


.....well worth repeating!

67 Stonemason  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:12:05am

re: #46 VioletTiger

I agree. It was so general, it was useless.
The rub for me was why was it released at all? There were no specifics that could improve public safety.

it wasn't 'released' it was leaked to a right wing site, Alex Jones I believe.

68 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:12:46am
69 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:12:56am

re: #46 VioletTiger

I agree. It was so general, it was useless.
The rub for me was why was it released at all? There were no specifics that could improve public safety.

It was leaked.

As Charles has pointed out, it was first leaked to (gulp!) Alex Jones.

I agree with you, but my question is, why was it written? Surely, they could have done a better job!

70 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:13:28am

re: #56 yma o hyd

Aww - thats the first time evah I beat another Lizard in 'links at dawn'!

;-)

Well you will not have your way with me again, I can assure you!
/heads to back room practicing quick draw, mumbling, Nevah nevah nevah again!

71 Shug  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:13:45am

re: #68 buzzsawmonkey

What do they do in cases of Christian Identity theft?

I think Lifelock covers that too

72 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:13:47am

re: #50 Sharmuta

Ron Paul is not a right-winger. In his isolationism and protectionism he fits in perfectly with the Left.

73 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:13:53am
74 P. Aaron  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:14:08am
All you folks seething and yelling about the DHS report on “right wing extremism,” make sure to save some of your anger for the FBI, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations, and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, because they’re in on the plot to demonize conservatives and veterans too.

I ain't 'seething', and I don't have anger about it. I have concerns about it.

They're still a bunch of pointy headed bureaucrats taking stock of Americans in general...from the inside-lookin' out. Just because it comes from either 'law-enforcement' or a defense agency doesn't mean that there's any more objectivity in their assessment.

It's still a government too large and too intrusive to be preserving our rights.

If anything, sourcing it through the FBI or defense only adds credibility to the assessment to MSM types and pro-gov't activists that ostensible conservatives are a real threat.

75 lifeofthemind  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:14:20am

Only an idiot would accuse me of accusing them of being an idiot.
The ability to type a sentence like that without passing out laughing should qualify me for a Black Belt in Punditry and a network job.

76 elBarto  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:14:25am

Don't get me wrong crazy people should be watched. I just don't care for the labels. Being for limited federal government does not make one a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer.

77 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:14:37am

re: #65 Charles

It also mentions the Christian Identity weirdos.

Oh, those ones who marched in St. Louis under the arch this weekend, with boots and the usual signs and salutes....

78 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:15:16am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Because Jonah Goldberg's historical revisionism is completely bogus.

Revisionism? He never addressed neo-nazis in the book what-so-ever. He addressed Mussolini who was a avowed socialist who split with the socialists over issues relating to supporting WWI. After the war, Mussolini never gave up socialism, but he was to the right of the socialists according to the socialists.

79 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:15:33am

Well, look at the bright side. Survivalist chic will be back in vogue again.//

Sigh.

As if there isn't enough ammo in the stores now--this will clear out the inventories completely.

80 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:15:38am

re: #11 NYCHardhat

fascism is a extreme right ideology.

Fascism is a Leftist ideology. The Nationalist Socialist Workers Party of Germany was an organization of the left. Mussolini was a Socialist before he joined the Fascists.

81 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:15:42am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Remember when Republicans valued national security? Those were the days.

Since when does Republicans not value national security? It is not a GOP president back slapping Hugo Chavez and sending love notes off to Daniel Ortega and Raul Castro.

82 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:15:52am

re: #76 elBarto

Don't get me wrong crazy people should be watched. I just don't care for the labels. Being for limited federal government does not make one a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer.

Who says it does?

83 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:15:56am

Reine, disregard my comment in reply to you, multitasking here and read something into your comment that wasn't there.

84 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:15:57am
85 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:01am

re: #67 Stonemason

it wasn't 'released' it was leaked to a right wing site, Alex Jones I believe.

Alex Jones is equal opportunity nuttiness.

86 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:04am

re: #68 buzzsawmonkey

What do they do in cases of Christian Identity theft?

I'm thinking of getting that Christian Identity feature as part of my phone service package, so I can see when Christians are calling me.

87 jvic  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:09am

The country has groups with violent antidemocratic agendas.

It's one thing to investigate such groups to find out which members have military experience. It's another thing to investigate everybody with military experience to see if they belong to such groups.

I didn't read "the report" meticulously, but I assume the government is doing the former.

88 Shug  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:09am

If you are not a right wing wacko you have nothing to fear and you are not a target.

so relax

89 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:19am

re: #80 Kenneth

Stalin was one of the biggest fascists of all time.

90 SteveC  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:24am

Ahmadinejad sends them packing

91 lifeofthemind  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:26am

re: #68 buzzsawmonkey

What do they do in cases of Christian Identity theft?

The become Odinists or Onanists or revert to Islam, or a combo pack.

92 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:26am

re: #61 Thanos

I think it mentions someone more recent, Poplawski iirc

I don't think so, no.

93 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:21am

re: #76 elBarto

Don't get me wrong crazy people should be watched. I just don't care for the labels. Being for limited federal government does not make one a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer.

And who ..... exactly ..... has said that it does ?

94 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:23am

re: #74 P. Aaron

taking stock of Americans in general...from the inside-lookin' out.

Wrong, the report specifies WN and specific radical groups associated. Americans in general have nothing to do with White Nationalism.

95 SteveC  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:28am

re: #68 buzzsawmonkey

What do they do in cases of Christian Identity theft?

No biggie. God uses LifeLock!

96 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:39am

re: #55 Charles
HEY! Why are you picking on us Scotsmen?!?
/do I even need to?

97 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:43am

re: #72 Joel

Ron Paul is not a right-winger. In his isolationism and protectionism he fits in perfectly with the Left.

Oh come on. Ron Paul is associated with every right wing group in the book, including the paleocon Robert A. Taft Club, and the white nationalist Council of Conservative Citizens.

There is nothing left wing about Ron Paul.

98 Bloodnok  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:49am

re: #72 Joel

Ron Paul is not a right-winger. In his isolationism and protectionism he fits in perfectly with the Left.

Oh for crying out loud. Deny it all you want. Relabel it, misconstrue it. Take one part of his platform and use that to associate him with the left. The fact is that it is just not true.

99 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:49am

I'm also thinking that from now on out, anyone showing up to a UN conference in a fright wig and big shoes should be profiled and checked for small, soft red objects, as well as small soft purple objects and big soft red objects.

/Just saying

//Although, I'll bet at least one of the delegates has abnormally large feet, and odd-looking hair. We should cut him a break.

100 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:50am

re: #88 Shug

If you are not a right wing wacko you have nothing to fear and you are not a target.

so relax

Is ACORN being watched?

101 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:51am

re: #92 Wishing

I don't think so, no.

One of the reports did, this memo might not have

102 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:18:05am

re: #89 Joel

No, Stalin was a Communist, which is a rival leftist ideology. Fascism & Communism have much in common, but they are not identical ideologies.

103 Stonemason  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:18:14am

re: #81 Joel

Since when does Republicans not value national security? It is not a GOP president back slapping Hugo Chavez and sending love notes off to Daniel Ortega and Raul Castro.

Wow...I can fathom this, but I am going to agree wtih KT.

Republicans that are all frothy about this silly report are the ones that are turning thier backs on National Security. This is a standard item that is reported on all the stinkin' time, it is a non-starter, and the only reason it is getting any time at all is because the extremeists on both sides want it too.

Some one has to keep tabs on the loonies.

104 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:18:58am

Considering our current president is a good buddy of someone who along with his wife tried to blowup innocent Americans back in 1970 - this kind of rings hallow.

105 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:03am

re: #76 elBarto

Don't get me wrong crazy people should be watched. I just don't care for the labels. Being for limited federal government does not make one a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer.

What's a terrorist?//

106 auldtrafford  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:04am

Thing I don't get is why Napolitano is spending so much time and energy apologizing and 'splaining away something that needs no apology or explanation ... ?

107 Stonemason  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:11am

re: #85 Dianna

Okay, I'll give ya that!

More on the 'leaked' not 'released'.

108 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:16am

re: #89 Joel

Stalin was one of the biggest fascists of all time.

No, he wasn't.

Socialism in One Country was a slogan, not a policy.

109 elBarto  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:17am

Is there a link to the full report some where?

110 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:22am

I wonder how much Alex Jones has made from this hubbub so far.

111 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:35am

re: #100 MandyManners

Is ACORN being watched?

We can only hope.

112 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:35am

re: #97 Charles

Oh come on. Ron Paul is associated with every right wing group in the book, including the paleocon Robert A. Taft Club, and the white nationalist Council of Conservative Citizens.

There is nothing left wing about Ron Paul.

However, I would add that Ron Paul is very much a populist in the vein of Pat Buchanan.

113 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:46am

re: #96 realwest

HEY! Why are you picking on us Scotsmen?!?
/do I even need to?

Sssh! We either clan up or we'll get kilt.

114 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:19:49am

re: #104 Joel

Considering our current president is a good buddy of someone who along with his wife tried to blowup innocent Americans back in 1970 - this kind of rings hallow.

or hollow

115 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:20:02am

re: #50 Sharmuta


So, are you suggesting that there is no valid basis for suggesting that the modern American national government has overstepped its Constitutional boundries? And that therefore anyone who believes that the national government does a lot of things that have no Constitutional basis - those people are dangerous potential terrorists? To me that seems to be a silly leap of logic, as well as a overwrought conclusion. The fact that there are indeed fringe groups who are dangerous does not mean that there are no legitimate points of view that take a dim view of legislative and judicial overreach. That is my problem with this report - not that it exists, and not that it focuses on right-wing extremists. Rather, it is the slipshod, sloppy way it goes about discussing people, using an extremely broad and murky set of definitions of what consitutes one of these right wing extremists.

116 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:20:14am

This is what happens with historical revisionism. Many on the right no longer understand the world they live in. It's beyond their abilities to understand that neo-nazis are right wing extremists. In order to make sense they have to resort to conspiracy theories that the DHS is out to get them. It's the only way they can make sense of it.

117 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:20:41am

re: #101 Thanos

One of the reports did, this memo might not have

Which one? Link please?

118 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:20:43am

The one thing that bugs me is that there are probably NOI/ Black Panther and WoW types returning from Iraq as well, where's the report on that?

119 JarHeadLifer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:20:52am

re: #40 Stonemason


There have been other reports that single out leftists too, it is a smart thing to watch people that want to kill other people.

Doesn't it bother you that the report uses the word 'terrorist" (13 times) when describing domestic threats when this administration, and specifically DHS, has adopted a position where they will avoid the word "terrorist" when describing foreign threats to the country?

120 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:20:54am

re: #97 Charles

He is a major league isolationist and his followers remind me of LaRouchites - people that can swing back and forth from the Left to the Right - as most paleocons can. That is why Buchanan is so popular on MSNBC.

Just my opinion.

121 Buck  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:21:28am

re: #19 Charles

They call themselves right wing. They have extreme right wing views. They are right wing extremists.

Ya, but they want it both ways... they also call themselves Socialist, as in "National Socialist".....

I fail to see any similarity with any right wing views I have....

122 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:21:35am

re: #118 Thanos

The one thing that bugs me is that there are probably NOI/ Black Panther and WoW types returning from Iraq as well, where's the report on that?

Thanos ... RACIST!


/you will probably never see a report like that ... even if there is one ...

123 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:21:38am

re: #111 Dianna

We can only hope.

I bet they're better funded than all the fascist organizations together.

124 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:21:49am

re: #102 Kenneth

No, Stalin was a Communist, which is a rival leftist ideology. Fascism & Communism have much in common, but they are not identical ideologies.

Stalin was nominally a Communist, but of course he never really quite got around to that "withering away of the state" business. I think it's quite defensible to say that in practice, he was essentially a fascist.

125 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:22:09am

re: #123 MandyManners

I bet they're better funded than all the fascist organizations together.

MM ... with our tax dollars ... just sayin ...

126 SteveC  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:22:10am

re: #113 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sssh! We either clan up or we'll get kilt.

Hush him up, Danny Boy! We'll get away Scot free!

127 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:22:21am

re: #113 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sssh! We either clan up or we'll get kilt.

Be sure to plaid the Fifth!

128 Idle Drifter  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:22:22am

When I was serving my short 5 years (1997-2002) in the Marines I do remember a lot of briefings concerning gangs and extremist groups using the military as for training purposes for their members or acquiring material. This is a real concern to law enforcement of coming up against gang members with knowledge and training with weapons and tactics. The military is also concerned with security of material both private property and government property and intelligence. Counter Intelligence has always been on the lookout for infiltrators and we have an example with that translator that was passing (or attempting to pass) information from prisoners to Muslim terrorists. This will remain a constant threat to our national security and law enforcement which means constant vigilance, prevention, and prosecution.

129 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:22:23am

re: #67 Stonemason

it wasn't 'released' it was leaked to a right wing site, Alex Jones I believe.

Why would anybody 'leak' something, anything, to a total whack-job? Somebody must have anticipated the reaction and wanted the reaction. I just can't reason out the motive.

130 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:22:27am

re: #108 Dianna

Right-left--does not matter. You keep moving to extreme positions at either end of the political spectrum you arrive at totalitarianism and dictatorship.

131 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:22:36am

re: #121 Buck

Ya, but they want it both ways... they also call themselves Socialist, as in "National Socialist".....

I fail to see any similarity with any right wing views I have....

National Socialists are NOT "socialists." The operative part of their name is "National," as in extreme nationalism. They are nationalist fascists, and this is an extreme right wing ideology.

132 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:23:03am

re: #115 Radar G

So, are you suggesting that there is no valid basis for suggesting that the modern American national government has overstepped its Constitutional boundries?

No.

133 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:23:10am

I promise you that the Army CID is also watching guys who came from street gangs and other assorted criminal elements. I hope that they spend a lot more time and effort on those guys than on skinheads, as I would guess that the street gang affiliated guys exist in higher numbers.

I'd also guess that not too many left wing extremists make it through boot camp.

134 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:23:25am

re: #121 Buck

I would interpret that as not being an extremist.

It would actively frighten me if I found I agreed with a bunch of white supremacists.

135 Bloodnok  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:23:26am

re: #104 Joel

Considering our current president is a good buddy of someone who along with his wife tried to blowup innocent Americans back in 1970 - this kind of rings hallow.

So the sitting President's past determines how much of a threat right-wing extremists are? Um, no.

136 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:23:28am
137 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:23:33am

re: #127 MandyManners

You might get short-sheeted if you do and that will make people cross.

138 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:23:39am

re: #117 Wishing

Which one? Link please?

Next time get someone else to be your research monkey:

[Link: www.thepittsburghchannel.com...]

This is easy to find by googling "poplawski", use your fingers on your keyboard or just stop trying to obfuscate whichever it is.

139 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:24:00am

re: #108 Dianna

No, he wasn't.

Socialism in One Country was a slogan, not a policy.

Th eway he ran his country - he could give Hitler a run for hismoney for repression.TheNKVD (also known at various times as teh Cheka, GPU) was omnipresent.

"In the USSR today, the only time a man feels free to talk, is at night, softly, under the covers, to his wife".
An unknonw writer in 1937

140 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:24:08am

Hell, if you want to be worried about veterans, worry about the ones who are gang members. That's a more realistic threat than some hick getting out of the Army and becoming the next Matt Hale.

141 P. Aaron  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:24:13am

re: #94 Thanos

Wrong, the report specifies WN and specific radical groups associated. Americans in general have nothing to do with White Nationalism.

I do not like the umbrella labels that they use. It only helps pro-government lefties.

Where Ayers or Dorn mentioned? Ayers still wanted to bomb stuff. He's an 'American'.

142 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:24:16am

re: #129 VioletTiger

Why would anybody 'leak' something, anything, to a total whack-job? Somebody must have anticipated the reaction and wanted the reaction. I just can't reason out the motive.

You already have stated the motive.

143 auldtrafford  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:24:23am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

This is what happens with historical revisionism. Many on the right no longer understand the world they live in. It's beyond their abilities to understand that neo-nazis are right wing extremists. In order to make sense they have to resort to conspiracy theories that the DHS is out to get them. It's the only way they can make sense of it.

This squares with Napolitano's explanation that the Government needs to be wary of subversives trying to trick our gullible veterans into becoming extremist warriors. They just don't understand the world they're returning to.

144 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:24:28am

re: #129 VioletTiger

Why would anybody 'leak' something, anything, to a total whack-job? Somebody must have anticipated the reaction and wanted the reaction. I just can't reason out the motive.

Motive - to create a lot of screaming and yelling, perhaps?

145 debutaunt  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:24:52am

re: #100 MandyManners

Is ACORN being watched?

Oh yeah, watched and congratulated.

146 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:02am

re: #130 calcajun

Right-left--does not matter. You keep moving to extreme positions at either end of the political spectrum you arrive at totalitarianism and dictatorship.

Naturally.

Though I occasionally wonder if we haven't started accepting that as a truism; I wonder if a real right-wing position wouldn't lead to balkanization and warlordism.

147 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:13am
148 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:16am

Anyone who is in any way bad is not right wing, because right wing by definition precludes all forms of badness. There, I said it//

149 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:28am

re: #144 reine.de.tout

Motive - to create a lot of screaming and yelling, perhaps?

Rather than thinking about economic issues?

150 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:29am

re: #137 calcajun

I'm not gonna' make any puns about the Klan. They're vile bastards.

151 CIA Reject  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:35am

re: #144 reine.de.tout

Motive - to create a lot of screaming and yelling, perhaps?

Precisely: "In chaos there is opportunity ..."

152 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:36am

re: #131 Charles

National Socialists are NOT "socialists." The operative part of their name is "National," as in extreme nationalism.

Both are corporatist, authoritarian ideologies; I do think they have way more in common with each other than either does with democratic capitalism.

I do concur, of course, that of course fascism/Nazism are placed on the extreme "right" in standard political taxonomy.

153 jdog29  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:42am

re: #50 Sharmuta

I'm just going to say this again concerning right-wing extremists:

Well- in the case of the radical paulians, it's not much more simple than what I've already stated. They see the current system as broken, and the way to get back to "smaller, less intrusive government" (in their minds) is to break the current contract (the Constitution) and re-establish it anew (which is meaningless, because it's an already broken contract with no authority). Instead of abiding by the democratically agreed system, they seek to replace our existing authority with their own. But we'll get back to that.

Additionally- this has a lot to do with nationalism. Clearly not left wing thinking, which is multi-cultural/international in its scope. When taken to its extremes, nationalism can lead to such things as genocide and secession (where have we heard that lately?).

Now, back to the Constitution-


When We the People agreed to live under the Constitution, we conceded some of our rights to the government in exchange for limitation on government power to protect our remaining rights. It was a trade-off. The Constitution limits the power of government with internal checks and balances, and The Bill of Rights guarantees remaining powers that belong to the People.

It is those on the right who mistake individual rights and states' rights as trumping the right of the Federal government to also exist. They have that right because our forefathers granted that to them by ratifying the Constitution. So if you want to continue to delude yourself that radical/violent anti-Federal government ideology is not extreme right-wing thinking, knock yourself out.

VERY WELL STATED.


Would you agree that if you have to actually explain those concepts to people, then you might be wasting your time on people unable to understand those concepts. Kindof like holding a college class on why not to stick a screwdriver in an outlet plug./

154 pocomoco  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:45am

26 Charles

It was not intended to be a specific report on specific cases. It's a study on the process of radicalization -- what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist.


If you know anything about world history, the process of radicalization is simple.

It is caused by governments that have become radicalized and stopped answering to the people, which is what we are witnessing today.

155 FabioC.  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:25:46am

Hmm, I gather that Mussolini in fact distanced himself from the socialist party and proposed a "third way" to resolve the class struggle: to have the state force workers and employers to find an agreement (put in very simple and succinct terms).

156 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:26:05am

re: #127 MandyManners

Be sure to plaid the Fifth!

That would raise the hackles of true Scotsmen!

/obscure Black Watch pun-reference

157 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:26:12am

re: #139 Joel

Th eway he ran his country - he could give Hitler a run for hismoney for repression.TheNKVD (also known at various times as teh Cheka, GPU) was omnipresent.

"In the USSR today, the only time a man feels free to talk, is at night, softly, under the covers, to his wife".
An unknonw writer in 1937

A run for his money?!

Ha! As bad or worse.

158 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:26:27am

re: #141 P. Aaron

I do not like the umbrella labels that they use. It only helps pro-government lefties.

Where Ayers or Dorn mentioned? Ayers still wanted to bomb stuff. He's an 'American'.

Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn do not belong in a report on "right wing extremism," and neither one of them have been a terrorist threat for at least 30 years.

Good grief.

159 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:26:36am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

Define your terms: "Left wing", "Right wing", "Fascism", "Communism", "Socialism".

The ideological content & history of Fascism places it solidly in the Leftist camp. It was only after WWII that Western political scientists, typically of the socialist & Marxist persuasion, re-labeled Fascism as "Right wing".

As for the DHS using the term "right wing", it's not really important, and misses the point. There really are violent extremist political groups active in America and we need to be aware of them.

160 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:26:41am

re: #81 Joel

Since when does Republicans not value national security? It is not a GOP president back slapping Hugo Chavez and sending love notes off to Daniel Ortega and Raul Castro.

It was a GOP president who got elected after campaigning in a primary and general election that Vicente Fox and Mexico were our best friends.

It was a GOP president whose first red carpet state visit event to the White House was thrown for Vicente Fox.

Sorry, but neither party has covered itself in glory in terms of national security for the past decade. The GOP might be better, but they controlled congress and the White House for several years where they were all talking about how they supported the troops during war time while they were passing ludicrous porkfests in the guise of transportation, energy, and farm bills instead of fully funding the war effort and troops.

161 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:26:43am

re: #136 Iron Fist

But where you see the left-right dichotomy, I'm seeing something else. This is what I said about it earlier.

162 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:26:53am

re: #141 P. Aaron

Nice dodge, but as stated, the report is specific, not general as you tried to imply. Why would they include Ayers in a report on right wing extremism? IF they are doing their job right that's a separate report. It's probably out there too, just not leaked like these have been. Timed right to get under conservative's skin, and to take them off-point. It's working by all signs.

163 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:27:05am

re: #135 Bloodnok

So the sitting President's past determines how much of a threat right-wing extremists are? Um, no.

What I mean was that this concern for domestic potential terrorists sounds like a lot of making politics from a highly politicized DHS and Justice Department.

Also the ide of releasing Gitmo prisoners does not give me a great sense of security.

164 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:27:14am

re: #147 buzzsawmonkey

The USSR certainly did have a Cheka-ed past.

Buzz, I can't Beria starting another pun thread...

165 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:27:24am

re: #126 SteveC

re: #126 SteveC

Stop haggising about this issue and put a loch on it.

166 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:27:30am

re: #143 auldtrafford

Yes, I read Ed Morrisey's dishonest article this morning too.

167 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:27:43am

re: #138 Thanos

Next time get someone else to be your research monkey:

[Link: www.thepittsburghchannel.com...]

This is easy to find by googling "poplawski", use your fingers on your keyboard or just stop trying to obfuscate whichever it is.

LOL you are the one who made the statement. I asked you to back it up.
lala la lala la

168 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:28:02am

re: #152 Occasional Reader

I do concur, of course, that of course

[bangs head on desk]

169 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:28:04am

re: #158 Charles

Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn do not belong in a report on "right wing extremism," and neither one of them have been a terrorist threat for at least 30 years.

Good grief.

True. They've taken their Gramscian whoring ways into the main-stream of our educational culture.

170 opnion  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:28:13am

Stephen Hawking rushed to the hospital today with chest infection. Cambridge University says that his condition is serious.

171 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:28:14am

re: #50 Sharmuta Well I'm NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE, BY THE RIGHT OR LEFT WING, but y'all ought to keep this in mind as well:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Again, I'm NOT advocating the overthrow of the US government AT ALL, nor do I deny that the majority of voters voted for Obama. But please, our Founding Fathers were not so stupid as to believe that even under a democracy "evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
That is why the Constitution specifies certain rights and obligations of the Federal Government with the remaining rights of a free society left to the States and the people.

172 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:28:14am

re: #143 auldtrafford

This squares with Napolitano's explanation that the Government needs to be wary of subversives trying to trick our gullible veterans into becoming extremist warriors. They just don't understand the world they're returning to.


Yep, that's just us, poor ol' dumbass vets. Too dumb to avoid getting stuck in Iraq. Thank God Janet Napolitano is there for us, like the father figure we so obviously lacked in our broken homes as children.

I don't know about you, but I prefer being considered dangerous to being considered a moron. And Janet Napolitano can go piss up a rope - remember the PC mess she made of the Arizona 9/11 memorial? What a useless lump of crap she is.

173 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:28:29am

re: #153 jdog29

VERY WELL STATED.

Would you agree that if you have to actually explain those concepts to people, then you might be wasting your time on people unable to understand those concepts. Kindof like holding a college class on why not to stick a screwdriver in an outlet plug./

Um- Thanks, I guess, but I don't think I'm wasting my time mentioning it to Lizards. They're very bright people capable of understanding things.

174 Sunlight  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:29:02am

I guess I'm wondering why the flaming is necessary... I look at the "skinhead"/militia angle as similar to the watch that goes on with gang guys who join the military and then go back to apply their training for the drug gangs. I would guess the military experience changes the gang view in most of these guys. And I would guess that the same happens to the Timothy McVeigh types. So if a few come back and become "terrorists", whether as gangsters or skinheads, I would like to see a comparison to statistics with the general public. That is one thing the left (Charles, most of my friends are on the left, so I know this is true) fails to do is to look at the numbers of Bill Ayers, Timothy McVeigh, LA gang guys, etc. in the general public and then to run the numbers on the success of the military in smoothing the rough edges from every walk of life, in comparison with the non-military-service general public. The left does not like the military and are unwilling to say a positive thing about it (in my current thinking, then they can feel righteous in not doing scary military things and leaving it to the despised others). Charles, I do believe their is a bigger story here than just fighting with the "Republicans".

175 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:29:07am

re: #136 Iron Fist

Um, that isn't limited to the right wing of political thought or to nationalism. Secession from the United States is a pretty dead-letter position, though there are those who support it on both sides of the aisle (La Raza comes to mind as the most prevelent of secessionist movements, and they are far from the right wing politically on every issue).

Genocide, well, Nationalism and tribalism have led to genocide, but so have socialism and communism. Communism took an estimated 100 million lives in the 20th century. Stalinism alone racks up about a fifth of that, but you can't blame countries like Cambodia for not trying. In Cambodia they offed about a third of the population, give or take.

My problem isn't with the report per se but the rather vauge (Unconstitutionally vauge? possibly) definition for "right-wing extremist". They seem to be too all-inclusive in their definition.

La Raza. Lovely people. Didn't Karl Rove speak to one of their conventions?

Yeah, they are left wing extremists. The Aryan Nation are right wing extremists. I would bet serious money that there are a lot more left wing extremists than right wing extremists.

But it is still DHS's job to investigate both.

176 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:29:24am

re: #160 funky chicken

Are you really drawing an equivalence between Fox and Chavez, Ortega and Castro?

177 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:29:32am

re: #160 funky chicken

Hey I am not a Bushbot and I had a myriad of issues with George W. Bush and Condi Clueless Rice as anyone who has been at LGF for more then two month knows, but the last I saw Bush was not the president (or is he?)

178 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:29:56am

re: #162 Thanos

Nice dodge, but as stated, the report is specific, not general as you tried to imply. Why would they include Ayers in a report on right wing extremism? IF they are doing their job right that's a separate report. It's probably out there too, just not leaked like these have been. Timed right to get under conservative's skin, and to take them off-point. It's working by all signs.

Thanos ... yes, timed perfectly ... Obama, Pelosi, et al ... have studied this and have it down ... people are falling into their trap quite nicely ... it will take some time for some to figure out what the grand plan is ... I hope they figure it out soon ... I have absolutely no problem recognizing what they are doing ... after I shook off my initial pissed off attitude that Obama actually is the president ... I am back to seeing things for what they really are ... there is a plan ... the next step in that plan is the hispanics ... and the DEMOCRATS for generations in the White House ... socialism will be a way of life for America ...

179 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:29:56am

re: #167 Wishing

You can ask for proof on bizarre or hard to find statements, this is a fact that's easy to find.

180 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:29:59am
181 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:30:03am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

Killgore, you seem to be in full blown panic mode.

1. Neo-nazis are now considered "right-wing", but they really have more of their values based on Nazi hate as opposed to anything else. Ask them about their economic policy sometime.
2. Fascism is distinctly related to socialism and corporate syndicalism. Neither one is in line with the traditional American values (pre-Wilson).
3. The revisions came initially from the American "left" who wanted to distance themselves from their pre-WWII support of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. It's well documented if you read the sources.
4. I find the terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" to be often misused and very misleading. By using the terms, we miss some of what is actually going on. Ron Paul, for this example, palls around with a lot of groups typically considered conservative, but the man has a very populist streak in the same way that Pat Buchanan has a populist streak.

182 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:30:05am

re: #165 calcajun

re: #126 SteveC

Stop haggising about this issue ...

You have no idea how much trouble that entrails!

183 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:30:16am

re: #141 P. Aaron

I do not like the umbrella labels that they use. It only helps pro-government lefties.
.

"Pro-government lefties" is not an umbrella label? What the F does it mean anyway?

Does that mean you are an "anti-government righty"?

Look out for the DHS guys later today.///

184 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:30:36am

re: #152 Occasional Reader

Both are corporatist, authoritarian ideologies; I do think they have way more in common with each other than either does with democratic capitalism.

I do concur, of course, that of course fascism/Nazism are placed on the extreme "right" in standard political taxonomy.

Wouldn't that place some of Obama's controls on banking and finance closer to fascism than socialism then putting him closer to the far right? (assuming we need to ascribe either moniker to them).

I'm serious about this question....not just trying to start a cat fight.

185 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:30:53am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

This is what happens with historical revisionism. Many on the right no longer understand the world they live in. It's beyond their abilities to understand that neo-nazis are right wing extremists. In order to make sense they have to resort to conspiracy theories that the DHS is out to get them. It's the only way they can make sense of it.

The question of whether nazism is correctly labeled as "right-wing" or is more correctly lumped together with socialism has been debated since, at least (off the top of my head), the writings of Friedrich Hayek and Vassily Grossman.

186 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:31:02am

OT:

Meanwhile, at that bastion of left wing conversation, HuffPo, you find this kind and caring comment on their thread about the journalist jailed in Iran:


kabab

why was she buying alcohol in a country that forbids it?
go to a country ...follow the laws
i hope they shove a copy of the koran up in her and sew her t w a t together
Reply Favorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 AM on 04/20/2009

187 auldtrafford  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:31:05am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Yes, I read Ed Morrisey's dishonest article [analyzing the DHS concern about veterans' vulnerability to extremism] this morning too.

Is this the official LGF take on the article? It's dishonest?

188 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:31:34am

For all the Scotsmen out there..

The one, the only, the Loch Ness Toad!

(Well, I think he's cool. Plus, I just like saying "Loch Ness Toad."

189 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:31:49am

Coffee and work. Must work. Not spend all day chattering on LGF!

190 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:31:57am

re: #109 elBarto

Is there a link to the full report some where?

Hi elBarto!

The link I found is dead. I'm still looking for another...

191 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:32:30am

re: #189 Dianna

Coffee and work. Must work. Not spend all day chattering on LGF!

Yes, the banter monitor needs something to do as well.

/

192 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:32:37am

re: #157 Dianna

A run for his money?!

Ha! As bad or worse.

You can make a case that Stalin (at least to his own people) was worse then Hitler but that is a distasteful task.

193 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:32:48am

re: #176 MandyManners

Are you really drawing an equivalence between Fox and Chavez, Ortega and Castro?

Add my "wtf?" to your "wtf?", Mandy.

194 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:33:13am

re: #186 3 wood

Good grief. Like that person never broke a law here.

195 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:33:42am

re: #184 eschew_obfuscation

Wouldn't that place some of Obama's controls on banking and finance closer to fascism than socialism then putting him closer to the far right? (assuming we need to ascribe either moniker to them).

I'm serious about this question....not just trying to start a cat fight.

That very observation was made by... George Will? I think?

196 jdog29  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:33:58am

re: #173 Sharmuta

Um- Thanks, I guess, but I don't think I'm wasting my time mentioning it to Lizards. They're very bright people capable of understanding things.

You're welcome. Of course you aren't wasting your time mentioning to intelligent people. I'm talking about the deluded people continuing down a bankrupt path of reasoning you mentioned at the end of your post #50.

197 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:35:23am

re: #186 3 wood

OT:

Meanwhile, at that bastion of left wing conversation, HuffPo, you find this kind and caring comment on their thread about the journalist jailed in Iran:

/Can't you just feel the love from the left?

198 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:35:35am

Breaking: Stephen Hawking hospitalized, reported very ill

199 SixDegrees  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:35:36am

re: #29 Radar G

It's part of the package? Huh? Yes, that's true, provided that you are currently under contract. Last month my IRR time ended as my 8 year contract expired. I currently owe nothing more to the military. What constitutional rights, pray tell, have I lost for all eternity?

Actually, you are still required to protect any classified information you have knowledge of as a result of having been granted that access in the first place, until any restrictions on such release expire or are waived. Even then, the particulars of the program(s) you were cleared for may not allow you to divulge such information without express written permission. Penalties vary from program to program, but are typically characterized by maximums in the neighborhood of 20 years in a Federal penitentiary and $100,000 in fines for violations. The United States doesn't have anything like Britain's Official Secrets Act, so ordinarily there are no prosecutions for release of classified information when the secondary source is a private citizen not read on to a closed program. But you sign away that exemption when you are read on.

Don't know if you consider that unconstitutional - I wouldn't - but the chances are extremely good that the expiration date on any classified information you are knowledgeable of far exceeds your period of military service.

200 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:35:39am

re: #186 3 wood

OT:

Meanwhile, at that bastion of left wing conversation, HuffPo, you find this kind and caring comment on their thread about the journalist jailed in Iran:

No need to quote any kind of rant from a screed like HuffPo- just as soon not see anything they have to say.

201 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:36:09am

The racial nationalism of the Nazi party was the dominant component of their ideology, but they were also "socialist". They rejected free enterprise, supported state control of banking, industry and labor . The Nazis held very strong "social" views about how to reform German society. Not the same socialism as British Fabian socialists, but socialism non the less. The Nazis also used their "socialism" label to form alliances with British socialists in order to exploit their pacifism.

Meanwhile, the "Socialist" USSR followed an actively Russian nationalist policy in the subjugated republics of the USSR.

202 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:36:30am
203 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:36:37am

re: #170 opnion

Stephen Hawking rushed to the hospital today with chest infection. Cambridge University says that his condition is serious.

Oh, no.

Best wishes for his speedy recovery.

204 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:36:48am

re: #179 Thanos

You can ask for proof on bizarre or hard to find statements, this is a fact that's easy to find.

Oh stop whining.

205 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:37:03am

re: #187 auldtrafford

Is this the official LGF take on the article? It's dishonest?

Shouldn't you be asking Charles that, not Kilgore?

206 Buck  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:37:06am

re: #131 Charles

National Socialists are NOT "socialists." The operative part of their name is "National," as in extreme nationalism. They are nationalist fascists, and this is an extreme right wing ideology.

I realize that.... but we were talking about what they call themselves... not what they are...

I just hate saying that they are right wing....I don't see the right, even the extreme right as fascists. When I extend the ideas on the right, they don't connect with fascists... I don't connect Nationalists necessarily with fascists either...

I think calling Nazis Right Wing is really a way for the Left to slander the right.

I do see the LLL as a natural extension of the Left... I just don't see Nazis as a natural extension of the right... Despite Pat Bucannan.

207 pat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:37:38am

I see a distinction. The FBI report is described as relating to individuals and apparently known groups that are under various degrees of surveillance, some open source, some via moles. The DHS memo targets generalities that the authors found objectionable. It is absolutely worthless as a law enforcement tool. It seems designed to draw suspicion towards those who disagree with liberal government policy.

208 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:37:39am

re: #204 Wishing

Stop wasting people's time with stupid questions.

209 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:38:02am
210 Hhar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:38:14am

Enh. As far as I can see, you can object to the DHS report on general principles (said objection does not make you a right-winger, and in fact objection to similar such activities previously has been the territory of more lefties than righties ) or you can be...........well, wildly inconsistent.

211 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:38:16am

re: #198 Sharmuta

Breaking: Stephen Hawking hospitalized, reported very ill

I sincerely hope he is OK. His work has been amazing and invaluable to all.

212 erp  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:38:29am

This isn't what my beef is about. My problem is that with these perhaps necessary precautions about potential disgruntled veterans, anyone else who disagrees with Obama's world vision is a suspected terrorists as well. Read the whole thing, not only the part about vets.

213 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:38:43am

re: #188 EmmmieG

For all the Scotsmen out there..

The one, the only, the Loch Ness Toad!

(Well, I think he's cool. Plus, I just like saying "Loch Ness Toad."

Quick! Somebody point him to shore.

214 opnion  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:39:00am

re: #203 Occasional Reader

Oh, no.

Best wishes for his speedy recovery.

It sounds very serious.

215 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:39:04am

re: #186 3 wood

Outstanding. Let's excuse the misogyny and the trumped up charges, and instead focus on the fact that she was first charged with illegally purchasing alcohol.

If alcoholic beverages are banned in Iran, how was she able to so easily obtain it? /

Still, no one there appears troubled by the fact that she was also first charged with being a journalist without a permit. They then threw the alcoholic beverage charge against her before throwing the treason/spying charges.

216 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:40:35am

re: #208 Thanos

Stop wasting people's time with stupid questions.

Just posting this so you have one more chance to get the last word.
lol

217 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:40:43am

From a historical perspective, the true meaning of what constituted National Socialism was pretty much a free for all within the Nazi Party itself. Its unifying principle was German superiority and eliminating the Jews from society. To me, this is something that isn't left or right, it's just racism plain and simple. Once you go beyond that, the Nazi Party was a confusing mess of contradictory ideas. There were indeed those who believed strongly in the "socialism" part of their party's title. The Strasser brothers, who were instrumental in the party's formative years, all the way through the early '30s, were committed socialists. So was Goebbels early on. In large part, this schism was what the purge of 1934, "The Night of the Long Knives", was about. The SA and its leadership were far more socialist than Hitler and his cronies. Even after that, however, there were still strains of socialist beliefs that persisted in Nazi ideology. To call it left or right really is misunderstanding the subject.

218 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:41:01am

re: #206 Buck

I think calling Nazis Right Wing is really a way for the Left to slander the right

You know that from August 24, 1939 to June 22 1941 (the start of Operation Barbarossa) the radical Left (which included the Communists) all were pro Nazi in its war on the"plutocratic, capitalist" British, this ultimately included Leon Trotsky supporting the Soviet collaboration with Nazi Germany in the dismemberment of Poland. Of course they were slavishly following Stalin's diktats.

219 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:41:01am

re: #150 MandyManners

I know--I grew up around a few of them. The real scary part was that some of them were very intelligent and educated people with a frightening ability to rationalize their hatred.

You know, I did not want to get into this right now as I've not been able to meet my quota at the salt mine and am behind in my work. But this touches on what we have been talking about--playing on people's fears. The klan and other hate-groups took bigotry and justified that hatred as a reaction to unwarranted intrusion by big government into their lives. I know that is a generality, but the gist is this; we cannot let others play on our fears. We cannot let ourselves be manipulated, especially now.

I have stopped watching Fox and I do not listen to talk radio because I am, basically, being told that I should be scared or angry or both. That, my friends, is demagoguery--and that is very dangerous. There is the very real possibility that who shouts the loudest might end up leading the party, and the graveyards are filled with the corpses of those who followed such men.

We cannot afford to take counsel of our fears--not now--not ever.

Sorry for going on so long.

220 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:41:32am

re: #215 lawhawk

Outstanding. Let's excuse the misogyny and the trumped up charges, and instead focus on the fact that she was first charged with illegally purchasing alcohol.

If alcoholic beverages are banned in Iran, how was she able to so easily obtain it? /

Still, no one there appears troubled by the fact that she was also first charged with being a journalist without a permit. They then threw the alcoholic beverage charge against her before throwing the treason/spying charges.

Islam, the Religion of the Kitchen Sink.

221 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:41:39am

re: #197 Creeping Eruption

/Can't you just feel the love from the left?

The nasty viciousness has become off the charts.

222 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:42:09am

The report is what it is, and the responses seem out of kilter.

However, the very vocal and newly empowered left has been applying the below logic successfully for a number of years:

Republicans = "Bushies", "Bushites", etc.
Bush = Hitler
Hitler = Nazi
QED, Republicans = Nazis.

It is this raw nerve on the right, IMO, that is being struck. And it is theexact tack, IMO, that will be taken with this report as it is abused by the left; they have plenty of irrational nirther-types of their own that will continue to find Nazis (i.e., Republicans) under every bed.

Meanwhile, BOTH sides will miss the point of tracking DANGEROUS EXTREMISTS (we don't need two reports!) to make political hay.

223 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:42:18am

re: #182 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Well, do I feel sheepish.

224 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:42:30am

re: #199 SixDegrees

All totally valid. That's a point I overlooked since I never dealt with anything higher than a Confidential classification.

225 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:42:52am

re: #26 Charles

It was not intended to be a specific report on specific cases. It's a study on the process of radicalization -- what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist.

Agreed. It is not a specific report but more a guide for LE on what it needs to look for in the radicalization process.
Similarly, it is not imprudent to view this report with a cautious eye as a guide to what the government considers potentially threatening.
No more imprudent than it is to keep a weather eye on clouds on the horizon. No need to panic or run for the storm cellar, but certainly worthy of noting.

226 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:43:17am

So after reading through the thread, I've learned that labels like Nazi, fascist, socialist, and neo-Nazi get thrown around a lot, misused, and appropriated by people who have absolutely no idea what they mean. Color me surprised.

227 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:43:20am

re: #219 calcajun
"We cannot afford to take counsel of our fears--not now--not ever."
Indeed, that's why I quoted a part of the United States Declaration of Indepenence in my #171 above.

228 tfc3rid  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:43:27am

Ugh... Pat Buchanan... The only good thing about him is that if it weren't for him, George W. Bush would not have been President.

229 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:44:54am

re: #217 Radar G

Good points.

230 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:45:26am

re: #227 realwest

Too busy writing my screed to see yours. Sorry. ;)

BTW, I responded to you on the Adams v Jefferson book on the late night thread.

231 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:46:20am

Anyway, after reading that long thing I just scribbled out , I realized that I went a lot further than I needed to. Basically, the point is that ascribing any sort of coherent system of political beliefs to a party that was essentially the embodiment of the warped personal grudges and hatreds of a madmen is a mistake. Hitler was the Party and the Party was Hitler, as Hess once said. That's pretty much the long and short of it.

232 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:47:09am

re: #215 lawhawk

Outstanding. Let's excuse the misogyny and the trumped up charges, and instead focus on the fact that she was first charged with illegally purchasing alcohol.

If alcoholic beverages are banned in Iran, how was she able to so easily obtain it? /

Still, no one there appears troubled by the fact that she was also first charged with being a journalist without a permit. They then threw the alcoholic beverage charge against her before throwing the treason/spying charges.

A grand total of one genius over there figured out that the 8 year sentence was sending a loud and clear message to the new CIC here.

For people who are so superior in their attitudes, they sure are not real quick on the uptake.

233 SixDegrees  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:48:06am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Yes, I read Ed Morrisey's dishonest article this morning too.

I'm so disappointed in the turn Ed has taken since shutting down Captain's Quarters and going over to the dark side with Malkin. His blog used to be one of the more calm, rational oases that offered well-reasoned essays on current topics that I could at least appreciate, if not always agree with. Since taking up with Malkin, he has been churning out the same wretched name-calling, hate-filled spew that she is so famous for.

I guess that's what happens when you decide to take someone else's money instead of generating your own. You give them what they want. In Ed's case, I can't blame him; he has a lot of expenses he has to meet. But it's a pity to see where he's wound up.

I doubt it will last, either. The business model being used is unsustainable, to say the least, and their adoption of the tinfoil-hat crowd's woowoo just isn't going to be enough to keep them going much longer, unless they find another sucker to rope into financing their club, which seems unlikely.

234 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:48:13am

re: #230 calcajun
No problem! Happens to me all the time - *shakes fist at Ajax and younger, faster typists than I*
Didn't see your response but will go look for it now.

235 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:49:24am
FBI documents show the bureau was working with investigators inside the nation’s uniformed services “in an effort to identify those current or former soldiers who pose a domestic terrorism threat.” The other agencies working with the FBI are the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

Hope they're working just as hard to identify current of former soldiers who are affiliated with MS-13, Gangster Disciples, the Crips or Almighty Latin King Nation (they probably are for the most part). Frankly, I would've lumped in the neo-nazis in with the other gangs of concern recruiting from or already having members from within the military.

Apparently I'm somehow advocating that the DHS completely ignore any threats that might materielize from the right when I take exception with the memo lumping in many of the issues I'm concerned being used to recruit for the militas or neo-nazis....

I mean, using that line of reasoning, I'm apparently in favor of apartheid when I point out the high crime rate in post-apartheid South Africa.

/Yes....somebody actually said that to me

236 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:49:44am

We can sit and argue the fine points of ideology all we want, but in the meantime these stormfronter/paulians are saying they're the grassroots, and saying they're doing tea parties. We should be renouncing these people because they sure as hell aren't friends of Israel.

237 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:50:44am

re: #222 OldLineTexan

The report is what it is, and the responses seem out of kilter.

However, the very vocal and newly empowered left has been applying the below logic successfully for a number of years:

Republicans = "Bushies", "Bushites", etc.
Bush = Hitler
Hitler = Nazi
QED, Republicans = Nazis.

It is this raw nerve on the right, IMO, that is being struck.

I think you make excellent points about the raw nerve that's being struck. All the more reason, it would seem to me, to remain calm and rational.


And it is theexact tack, IMO, that will be taken with this report as it is abused by the left; they have plenty of irrational nirther-types of their own that will continue to find Nazis (i.e., Republicans) under every bed.

I haven't seen any indication (yet, anyhow) that the report has been "abused" by the left. It may happen, but it seems to me, right now anyhow, that it is the right-wing hysteria about this report that's doing us in, so to speak.

238 J.S.  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:51:53am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

This is what happens with historical revisionism.

Ok. What many historians do is "revise historical understandings." Revision is part and parcel of a historian's job. Sometimes a researcher in the archives will come across an item (overlooked previously) which can then cause others in the field to revise their thinking...new documents are found...new understandings reached, etc. The term "revision" (with respect to history) should not be hijacked by the neo-nazis. The authors of "Denying History" explain the difference between legitimate historical revisions vs the neo-nazis desire to re-write (or deny) the occurrence of certain events...this distinction should not be lost or conflated...(again, there's legitimate historical revisionism and there's illegitimate revisionism...) (otherwise, I'm in agreement with your assessment).

239 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:51:57am
240 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:52:30am

re: #230 calcajun
Ah, I found your response to me! And yes, it can indeed hurt the eyes to read, but - foilbles or not - Jefferson was SPOT ON in the Declaration and especially the part I quoted in #171.

241 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:52:42am

re: #236 Sharmuta

We can sit and argue the fine points of ideology all we want, but in the meantime these stormfronter/paulians are saying they're the grassroots, and saying they're doing tea parties. We should be renouncing these people because they sure as hell aren't friends of Israel.

I never nounced them to begin with, personally.

242 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:52:45am

re: #237 reine.de.tout

Hence "will be". I lived through 8 years of being a gun owner under Clinto, and am extremely aware of broad-brush tactics against "groups". Also very aware of the creation of public perception in policy fights.

243 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:52:51am

re: #236 Sharmuta

They can say it all they want, but there simply aren't a whole helluva lot of these people. By giving their grandiose claims credence, in a way you legitimize them.

244 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:53:42am

re: #241 Occasional Reader

I never nounced them to begin with, personally.

They are being glued to you by those with vested interests.

245 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:55:19am

re: #239 Iron Fist

Don't. Read The Anatomy of Fascism, and A Conflict of Visions instead.

246 That's Glenn Beck to you  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:55:45am

Right now I am looking my newly acquired prop framed picture of my newly acquired lifelong hero, Martin Luther King.

I spent the weekend asking myself "What would Dr. King do?"

This after I suffered the Birmingham-like firehoses of down dings and the ignominy of deletion for simply suggesting that we have a weekly Apocalypse Armageddon and Civil Insurrection Preparations Thread.

Well - now that you can clearly see that our military investigative services are in on bringing about the End Times, what are you asking yourselves? Maybe you might be thinking "That selfless and calm champion of civil rights that I down dinged may have been right. Maybe I should listen to him and stock up on Velveeta cheese and iodine? Maybe it is time to take some books off the shelf and consider putting them to better use."

Dr. King would have persevered and reached out to those who showed such intolerance.

So I have decided to let you in on a recipe from my forthcoming book "101 Recipes With Government Cheese and Iodine - tasty treats that will make the end time the best times."

Iodine Nachos -

1 block of government cheese
3 potassium iodine tablets, crushed
3 books on evolution

Preheat cooking fire by lighting your three books on evolution. Make a tee pee structure before lighting so they burn thoroughly. Do this in a well ventilated space. If you are in your bunker, have you and your family don your gas masks while cooking.

Melt block of cheese in sauce pan. Sprinkle with potassium iodine and stir. Pour over chips. If chips aren't available, tear up the box your government cheese came in and pour over the torn card board.

Bon Appetite!

/

247 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:57:32am

re: #243 Radar G

They can say it all they want, but there simply aren't a whole helluva lot of these people. By giving their grandiose claims credence, in a way you legitimize them.

Perhaps you don't give them enough credit.

248 jpkoch  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:59:15am

The military investigators are at heart just bureaucrats. If someone at DHS told them that soccer moms were a threat, memos and power point presentation would be flying out of their offices detailing how they were preparing for this new threat.

249 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:59:45am

That may be. They do a pretty good job of staying hidden, then, aside from some loudmouths.

250 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:59:58am
251 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:00:05am

re: #109 elBarto

Is there a link to the full report some where?

Here's a link, elBarto. There was a version out there that had been messed with, so I can't vouch for this, but it looks like what I read before.

252 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:00:15am

re: #245 Sharmuta

Don't. Read The Anatomy of Fascism, and A Conflict of Visions instead.

Have one, and Goldberg's book, and will check out "A Conflict of Visions". Sowell's a good writier, and a very smart man, IMHO. He's always worth reading.

253 elBarto  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:01:27am

Thanks ww!

254 SixDegrees  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:01:57am

For everyone trying to defend the presence of Nazis on the right, deny that there is any problem with extremist right-wing groups recruiting vets, or otherwise trying to deny reality:

I listened to three separate editorials this morning on three different radio stations: NPR, a local news station, and the national sponsor they're affiliated with. Each and everyone of them was saying the same thing: Look at the crazy mofos who attended the Tea Parties; a bunch of racist Nazis claiming that the President isn't a citizen, or shouldn't hold his office because of his race, or is a crazed Communist infiltrator embarking on a real-life version of The Manchurian Candidate.

And all they have to do is point to any slightly-right-of-center blog to see argument after argument claiming that it's OK to allow, or at least ignore, the presence of such losers at rallies; that, well, OK, they're a little crazy, but not so bad, really; or that as long as they support a particular agenda, the rest of their message doesn't matter. All the proof any mugwamp needs that what the media is saying is 100% true, and all the incentive they need to stay away from those crazy Republicans and their racist, bigoted, theocratic candidates in the next election.

At this point, I believe the GOP can simply kiss the midterms goodbye, along with their fingernail-thin grasp on the Senate. Whine all you want about the biased media; you knew it was biased going in, and you've now handed them a full quiver of arrows that they'll be shooting back at us for years to come.

Do you get it now? You're tools.

255 jpkoch  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:02:28am

So, while deep cover terrorists cross over our southern border with impunity, DHS has every major investigative agency out tailing vets, Alan Keyes, and aging Moral Majority members? Ahhh, our tax dollars at work.

256 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:02:53am

The DHS and the FBI are not investigating the 3rd Reich or European Nazis in the manner of the Nuremberg Trials. On the ideological front their focus is within White Supremacist, American Neo-Nazi, White-Power, and Lonewolf Actors.

They are not conducting an academic study on Hitler, Mussolini, Pre-War Nationalism, European Fascism, etc. The focus is on far-right-wing extremist groups such as those listed above and not an academic probe of National Socialism. This is being done for law enforcement and homeland security purposes.

Law enforcement will not be debating the ideology of National Socialism they will simply be on guard for extremist activity within the realm of American far-right-wing groups who in fact barely even resemble the various factions of historically notable National Socialist regimes.

FBI agents and other law-enforcement personnel are not in the business of political analysis. In this matter they will be focused as required to be on-guard for activity within far-right-wing extremist factions which includes White Supremacists, American Neo-Nazis, White-Power, and Lonewolf Actors.

257 SixDegrees  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:03:05am

re: #236 Sharmuta

We can sit and argue the fine points of ideology all we want, but in the meantime these stormfronter/paulians are saying they're the grassroots, and saying they're doing tea parties. We should be renouncing these people because they sure as hell aren't friends of Israel.

Yup. And that message has gotten through to the media loud and clear. And is getting plenty of support throughout the blogosphere.

258 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:03:09am

re: #252 Honorary Yooper

Sowell's a good writier, and a very smart man, IMHO. He's always worth reading.

The Vision of the Anointed probably influenced me more than anything else I've ever read.

259 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:03:16am

re: #253 elBarto

Thanks ww!

Sorry it took so long. I'm not a great searcher.

I hope all is well with you and yours!

260 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:03:33am

re: #241 Occasional Reader

and it seemingly ticked off Adams that he gave up the job of authoring the document in the first place. Who said the founders weren't susceptible to human foibles.

261 theuglydougling  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:03:47am

re: #233 SixDegrees

Since taking up with Malkin, he has been churning out the same wretched name-calling, hate-filled spew that she is so famous for.

If I remember correctly Allahpundit also blogs over there. He and Ed could hardly be more different in their writing styles and opinions. But they both work for the evil Malkin and therefore are both exactly like her? Hmmmm.

I'm searching my memory banks trying to think of anything "hate-filled" in Ed's writings. Or maybe it's just that tactic of placing hateful or evil motives on anyone with a different opinion. If we're really trying to distance ourselves from extremists then perhaps we can avoid using their tactics as well. I thought that was the whole point of this site and its more recent content.

262 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:04:46am

re: #241 Occasional Reader

Sorry, PIMF--replied to the wrong message.

263 Fred72  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:04:51am

re: #80 Kenneth

Fascism is a Leftist ideology. The Nationalist Socialist Workers Party of Germany was an organization of the left. Mussolini was a Socialist before he joined the Fascists.

You're over-simplifying it. Sayeth Wikipedia:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The things to remember:

1. Neo-Nazis identify themselves as right-wing. That was the original question asked.
2. Having this argument again is pointless.

264 abolitionist  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:05:05am

re: #109 elBarto

Is there a link to the full report some where?

To download, right click on link and SaveAs.
[Link: video1.washingtontimes.com...]

265 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:05:31am

re: #240 realwest

and it seemingly ticked off Adams that he gave up the job of authoring the document in the first place. Who said the founders weren't susceptible to human foibles.

Back to salt mine.

266 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:06:51am

re: #256 Gus 802

The DHS and the FBI are not investigating the 3rd Reich or European Nazis in the manner of the Nuremberg Trials. On the ideological front their focus is within White Supremacist, American Neo-Nazi, White-Power, and Lonewolf Actors.

They are not conducting an academic study on Hitler, Mussolini, Pre-War Nationalism, European Fascism, etc. The focus is on far-right-wing extremist groups such as those listed above and not an academic probe of National Socialism. This is being done for law enforcement and homeland security purposes.

Law enforcement will not be debating the ideology of National Socialism they will simply be on guard for extremist activity within the realm of American far-right-wing groups who in fact barely even resemble the various factions of historically notable National Socialist regimes.

FBI agents and other law-enforcement personnel are not in the business of political analysis. In this matter they will be focused as required to be on-guard for activity within far-right-wing extremist factions which includes White Supremacists, American Neo-Nazis, White-Power, and Lonewolf Actors.

Very excellent points.

267 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:07:40am

re: #258 Radar G

The Vision of the Anointed probably influenced me more than anything else I've ever read.

You should follow up with Conflict of Visions. Seriously. They're related books.

268 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:07:52am
269 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:08:25am

re: #263 Fred72

Today, Neo-Nazis identify as right wing, having accepted the change in the meaning of the term. But the original Nazis called themselves left wing. The German" right wing" at the time supported the monarchy, the aristocracy and the old order. The Nazis aimed to sweep all that away.

270 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:09:16am

re: #254 SixDegrees

For everyone trying to defend the presence of Nazis on the right, deny that there is any problem with extremist right-wing groups recruiting vets, or otherwise trying to deny reality:

I listened to three separate editorials this morning on three different radio stations: NPR, a local news station, and the national sponsor they're affiliated with.


And you give them legitimacy by playing their game. Only the right need be bothered by the kooks who attempt to graft themselves into a larger movement. Point out ACORN, La Raza, CAIR, et al, and you're just a racist. Sorry. I don't want to let the left dictate the terms. I went to the Tea Party here in Pensacola FL. Yes, there were a few Paulians, and a few holding ridiculous anti-Obama signs. I'd say somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 people, total. This was out of a group of 1000. Acting as though that is anything resembling a true menace to the Republic simply plays into the hands of the likes of NPR. It gives flesh to the largely imaginary boogeyman they have constructed.

271 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:09:17am

re: #266 Sharmuta

Very excellent points.

Thanks Sharmuta.

272 jpkoch  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:09:30am

Six Degrees;

Do you get it now? You're tools

The only thing 2 things that will matter in 2010/2012 are:

a)How many are unemployed (currently the US is shedding 600,000 jobs a month)

b)If we are safe.

If a terror attack occurs (esp sponsored by a foreign group) a) won't matter. If another 2 million jobs are lost the next 18 months (since Obama's inauguration 1.5 million have lost jobs) the electorate will blame our President and the Dems. This isn't 1933. The President has already borrowed $5 trillion and he will soon be out of ammo. Deficits like the kind we're running are real economy busters.

273 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:11:00am

re: #269 Kenneth

Part of the right-wing/left-wing problem is that the two have historically different meanings in the US and Europe. What we term "conservative" here tends to be viewed as "liberal" in Europe. We have no monarchy or nobles, and the tradition we try to keep as the status quo is the Constitution.

274 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:11:11am

re: #268 Iron Fist

Which should give all US policy makers pause when they want to export/transplant our system to other parts of the world that did not have our intellectual traditions. It won't take--at least not quickly-as the philosophical soil is not present.

275 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:11:52am

re: #254 SixDegrees

For everyone trying to defend the presence of Nazis on the right

[looks around thread]

I must have missed that post.

276 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:12:25am

re: #268 Iron Fist

And besides, what do expect from a New York lawyer like Burr?

277 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:12:57am
278 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:13:08am

I will indeed read the Conflict of Visions sometime soon - I rarely have time these days with work and a one year old. That's why today has been a somewhat pleasant surprise. I so rarely get to comment on these threads. Too bad I have to be sick as a dog to partake!

279 Athos  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:14:25am

re: #277 Iron Fist

Some of the Nazis took the "Socialism" in National Socialism to heart. They were bitterly disappointed in Hitler once he had power. IIRC, Hitler had a number of them killed when he put down the SA. After he was through with them and no longer needed their support, of course. All of these totalitarian movements are really harsh on the leadership once they climb to power.

Just goes to show one that making a deal with a crocodile in the hopes that he eats you last rarely work out in the long run.

280 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:15:15am

re: #260 calcajun
LOL! I think you were replying to me! And I certainly never said that the Founding Fathers weren't without their foibles.
What I did say, and what is true, regardless of whether or not Adams regretted it later, Thomas Jefferson did author the Declaration of Independence, and the portion I quoted in my #171 seems to be particularly appropriate. Even in a democracy, the government can wind up tyrannizing the citizens.
Thus the provision in the Constitution that LIMITS Federal power to the Powers enumerated in the Constitution and all other matters are to be left to the States and to the people.

281 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:16:33am

re: #279 Athos

Franz von Papen says "Tell me about it!"

282 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:16:53am

re: #278 Radar G

I will indeed read the Conflict of Visions sometime soon - I rarely have time these days with work and a one year old. That's why today has been a somewhat pleasant surprise. I so rarely get to comment on these threads. Too bad I have to be sick as a dog to partake!

I'm not even half through yet, and I'll never see things the same way again.

283 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:18:07am
284 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:18:10am

Well you all it's been an interesting day but I have to leave now.
I hope you all have a good day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

285 Wendya  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:18:43am

re: #9 reine.de.tout

Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else that many of the folks yelling and screaming about this seem to have made an assumption that whenever the word "soldiers" appears, it is some sort of code for "right-wing".

As far as I know, members of our armed services have all sorts of different political points of view.

Well, there is an assumption in some leftist circles that if you volunteer to put on a uniform and defend the United States, you must be a right wing nutcase... either that or you are mentally challenged and incapable of understanding your actions.

286 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:18:50am

re: #281 Radar G

LOL. More like, "I just work here."

287 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:19:50am

re: #80 Kenneth

Fascism is a Leftist ideology. The Nationalist Socialist Workers Party of Germany was an organization of the left. Mussolini was a Socialist before he joined the Fascists.

Sorry, that's just not true. All of Hitler's alliances were with the right wing. After World War One, he joined the right-wing Bavarian German Workers' Party, which then changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Hitler then worked to assimilate other far right German parties, eventually being appointed chancellor precisely because he was so successful at this.

The National Socialist party started as a right wing organization, and had almost nothing in common with socialist left wing parties.

288 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:21:26am

re: #270 Radar G

And you give them legitimacy by playing their game. Only the right need be bothered by the kooks who attempt to graft themselves into a larger movement. Point out ACORN, La Raza, CAIR, et al, and you're just a racist. Sorry. I don't want to let the left dictate the terms. I went to the Tea Party here in Pensacola FL. Yes, there were a few Paulians, and a few holding ridiculous anti-Obama signs. I'd say somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 people, total. This was out of a group of 1000. Acting as though that is anything resembling a true menace to the Republic simply plays into the hands of the likes of NPR. It gives flesh to the largely imaginary boogeyman they have constructed.

When you say La Raza do you mean National Council of La Raza (NCLR)? They're not by any means considered an extremist group and are simply an advocacy group like the Asia Society or the NAACP. While one might not agree with their political ideology they are not even remotely comparably to any other extremist groups both on the left or the right.

There may have been some factions of Chicano Student movement groups within NCLR but those have been blown way out of proportion by the likes of Human Events or World Net Daily.

289 Wendya  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:26:19am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

This is what happens with historical revisionism.

Uh-huh. Like the historical revisionism that teaches we're a democracy and it's the government's job to promote financial equality through taxation?

290 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:27:14am

re: #280 realwest

It's a lesson, too. Per Ellis, it seemed that the Declaration was more of an afterthought since the decision to declare independence had been made in May, i.e.; it was a flourish-and perhaps a superfluous one. It was not until after it was written and published that it "took on a life of its own" and that Jefferson brought it to life (with Adams and Franklin as editorial midwives)

What is a fascinating study is how men, especially the founders, were shaped by their experiences and what kind of society produced them. As I am seeing in AVJ, there is a "what if" regarding Jefferson. What if Martha had not died? What if he had not seen the European peasants' penury while in France, what if he had taken Maria as his second wife--would he have had so much devotion to public life upon his return from France and would our political system look different but for his presence in public life during the 1790's.

291 Adrenalyn  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:30:19am

I'm sorry, was Hitler's party at all affiliated with the "right wing" in America ?


I'd like to hope not.

so why try to compare his and ours
our right wing stands for lower taxes, less government intrusion into our private lives, innovation and growth

his stood for totalitarianism, imperialism, genocide, etc...


nothing like helping the other side
by comparing us to Hitler

292 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:31:45am

re: #287 Charles

To a certain extent, you're correct, but what that overlooks is that many of the early Nazis hated capitalism as much as they hated Bolshevism. In both cases, you have to account for the anti-Semitism which was at the core of everything they stood for. To the Nazis, both capitalism and communism bore the taint of Jews. Jews ran international finance, and communism was a foreign Jewish ideology. Both would destroy Germany as a strong, ethnically pure entity. In many ways, the founding aim of the NSDAP was to create a new kind of socialism, one which rejected Marx due to his cosmopolitanism. It would supposedly be a German socialism, one without any Jewish influence. What did this mean? Well, it meant many things to many people, but it certainly wasn't any sort of free-market theory. The Strassers in particular were powerful men in the early era of the NSDAP, and they believed strongly in economic nationalization and thought that an understanding could be reached with the Soviet Union

293 meh130  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:33:01am

re: #26 Charles

It was not intended to be a specific report on specific cases. It's a study on the process of radicalization -- what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist.

No it wasn't. If it were that, it would have broadly examined other forms of extremism, such as left-wing extremism. Such a subject would make for a good report, as there are no doubt similarities in what makes an extremist on both ends of the spectrum. Like I posted to another thread, the very definition of right-wing extremism used in the report was not a specifically right-wing definition, to the point that Napolitano herself said the definition should be changed.

This report looks more and more like it may be a sanitized version of a more specific classified report. It is a very odd report when compared to reports on left-wing groups and reports from other departments, which tend to specifically name groups (Aryan Nation, Earth Liberation Front, etc.). With the ongoing investigations, and the need to protect the investigations, the names of the actual groups was probably sanitized out of this report which was released to law enforcement.

294 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:33:18am

re: #288 Gus 802

When you say La Raza do you mean National Council of La Raza (NCLR)? They're not by any means considered an extremist group and are simply an advocacy group like the Asia Society or the NAACP. While one might not agree with their political ideology they are not even remotely comparably to any other extremist groups both on the left or the right.

La Raza is not an extremist group? Whatever you say. I suppose the concept of Aztlan is just a children's story to them?

295 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:33:29am
296 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:33:50am

re: #176 MandyManners

Are you really drawing an equivalence between Fox and Chavez, Ortega and Castro?

Let's just say that i doubt that these "wonderful" fellows were Venezuelan or Cuban.

Grisly slayings brings Mexican drug war to US
By PAULINE ARRILLAGA
AP National Write

Mexican cartels reaching farther into U.S.

COLUMBIANA, Ala. (AP) -- Five men dead in an apartment.

In a county that might see five homicides in an entire year, the call over the sheriff's radio revealed little about what awaited law enforcement at a sprawling apartment complex.

A type of crime, and criminal, once foreign to this landscape of blooming dogwoods had arrived in Shelby County. Sheriff Chris Curry felt it even before he laid eyes on the grisly scene. He called the state. The FBI. The DEA. Anyone he could think of.

"I don't know what I've got," he warned them. "But I'm gonna need help."

The five dead men lay scattered about the living room of one apartment in a complex of hundreds.

Some of the men showed signs of torture: Burns seared into their earlobes revealed where modified jumper cables had been clamped as an improvised electrocution device. Adhesive from duct tape used to bind the victims still clung to wrists and faces, from mouths to noses.

As a final touch, throats were slashed open, post-mortem.

Curry would soon find this was a retaliation hit over drug money with ties to Mexico's notorious Gulf Cartel.

Curry also found out firsthand what federal drug enforcement agents have long understood. The drug war, with the savagery it brings, knows no bounds. It had landed in his back yard, in the foothills of the Appalachians, in Alabama's wealthiest county, around the corner from The Home Depot.

One thousand, twenty-four miles from the Mexico border.

One reason for that shift is the ability these days to "blend in in plain sight," as the Atlanta DEA chief puts it. The flood of Hispanic immigrants into American communities to work construction and plant jobs helped provide cover for traffickers looking to expand into new markets or build hubs in quiet suburbs with fewer law officers than the big cities.

297 badger1970  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:34:08am

Is it stereotypical of the military and civil defense agencies to assume ex-military members are up to no good service in extreme right-wing groups? If I'm reading it to this wrongly, please correct constructively.

Take the Fort Hood/ Killeen TX area. Gangs and other fringe destructive elements of society come in all sorts of size, shapes and colors (and various political views).

298 LieSeeker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:36:32am

I hope the FBI will point out the fake veterans which they stumble upon. Whether or not it's a crime. Isn't it a crime yet to lie about your federal job experience?

299 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:43:00am

re: #293 meh130

No it wasn't.

Yes, it was. You're free to deny it, but I know this for a fact, from a longtime LGF reader in the DHS.

300 Euler  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:43:16am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Why are neo nazis considered right wing?

Because Jonah Goldberg's historical revisionism is completely bogus.

Questioning the conventional left-wing-right-wing taxonomy started long before Liberal Fascism. Sometimes I'm a Trameksan, sometimes a Slameksan; sometimes a Big-Endian, sometimes a Little-Endian on this question.

301 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:44:48am

[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

sorry, forgot the link

excellent article, btw

302 Wendya  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:47:15am

re: #291 Adrenalyn

I'm sorry, was Hitler's party at all affiliated with the "right wing" in America ?

I'd like to hope not.

so why try to compare his and ours
our right wing stands for lower taxes, less government intrusion into our private lives, innovation and growth

his stood for totalitarianism, imperialism, genocide, etc...

nothing like helping the other side
by comparing us to Hitler

It's a mistake to compare left wing/right wing politics in Europe with what we call left wing/right wing. Laissez-faire capitalism was considered left wing in much of Europe. Eugenics, popularly believed to be a right wing ideology was strongly embraced by the American left.

303 countrygurl  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:48:01am

re: #9 reine.de.tout

As far as I know, members of our armed services have all sorts of different political points of view.


True, of course. But my exposure to the military has revealed a strong "conservative political bent" as a common denominator. At least at the Marine bases in the South where my brothers and cousins served. Back in the day.

304 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:49:44am

re: #303 countrygurl

Among those with strong political interest, yes, conservatism does dominate. Political apathy, however, reigns supreme in my own experience. Most of them don't really care too much about politics.

305 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:58:51am

re: #287 Charles

You & I will have to disagree on this point then. I am not saying that Fascism and Socialism are identical. I am saying they do have common origins in both ideology and people. Activists moved from "socialist" to "fascist" parties.

The view that Fascists were "left wing" parties comes from the fact that, like the Marxists, the Fascists wanted to radically change society and were eager to use violent revolutionary means to do it. Traditional "right wing" parties sought to preserve the social order of old Europe. They mistakenly thought the Nazis and other Fascist parties would do this for them.

Terms like "left-wing" and "right-wing", and the meanings attached to them, have shifted around quite a bit. The original definition of the term "right wing" applied to those protecting the status-quo. Both the Nazis and the Marxists opposed the status quo hierarchy in Wiemar Germany.

The industrialists & capitalists backed the Nazis to keep the Socialists & Marxists at bay, which is not the same thing as saying the Nazis and the capitalists were of the same political orientation. The Nazis had their own ideas of what to do with the capitalists once they got hold of power.

Today, the meanings of left and right have coalesced around certain ideologies, and their adherents seem happy with the labels. Fine. Both extremes are still enemies of liberal democracy and should be opposed. Which is why I have no problem with all of the DHS reports on all of the extremist groups threatening America, whatever the label.

306 countrygurl  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:01:30am

No True Scotsman...
this is the second time today LGF has sent me running for a definition (from Wikipedia):

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."

accidentally posted on Clown thread too 8-(

307 countrygurl  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:07:36am

re: #305 Kenneth
History of the terms [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The terms Left and Right have been used to refer to political affiliation since the early part of the French Revolutionary era. They originally referred to the seating arrangements in the various legislative bodies of France, specifically in the French Legislative Assembly of 1791, when the king was still the formal head of state, and the moderate royalist Feuillants sat on the right side of the chamber, while the radical Montagnards sat on the left.[1] This traditional seating arrangement continues to be observed by the Senate and National Assembly of the French Fifth Republic.

The leftists were the ones with the guillotine.

308 kansas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:09:15am

FBI documents show the bureau was working with investigators inside the nation’s uniformed services “in an effort to identify those current or former soldiers who pose a domestic terrorism threat.” The other agencies working with the FBI are the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service

NCIS? Oh no, not Gibbs too.? : )

Read this report several times now. I still don't like it from a non law enforcement and quick reading point of view. However, it wasn't intended for me, and I had to read it multiple times with instructions from many of you, the Boss for one, to discern the extremism clarifications that were made. I think reading the initial section, Scope, which I conveniently skipped, makes a big difference in interpretation.

309 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:16:33am

re: #307 countrygurl

Yes, that's right. From that time the term "rightist" referred to those who sought to preserve the privileges and hierarchy of the status-quo. Leftists were those who opposed the status-quo.

310 Tamron  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:25:32am

re: #26 Charles

It was not intended to be a specific report on specific cases. It's a study on the process of radicalization -- what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist.


Just before our Revolutionary War, what would have been the outcome if England had made -- and followed up on -- a study on the process of what turns an ordinary citizen into an extremist?

The "extremist" label is sometimes painted with too broad of a brush. Sure, there's a valid reason for keeping tabs on potentially violent lawbreakers, but who draws the line in the sand which differentiates someone with a legitimate (non-violent) gripe, versus a potentially violent lawbreaker? At what point does "keeping the peace" step out of bounds and become an unjustified Witch Hunt against a citizenry who, per a mandate from the Bill of Rights, wants to be heard, wants to think for themselves, and wants a better standard of living for themselves and their own?

As far as the British Crown was concerned, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin etc. would all have been (and were) targeted and persecuted as "extremists", because they were definitely not "good law-abiding citizens" per the oppressive British standards of the day.

It's a slippery slope, much more so today than it was 240 years ago.
.

311 P. Aaron  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:32:50am

re: #162 Thanos

Nice dodge, but as stated, the report is specific, not general as you tried to imply. Why would they include Ayers in a report on right wing extremism? IF they are doing their job right that's a separate report. It's probably out there too, just not leaked like these have been. Timed right to get under conservative's skin, and to take them off-point. It's working by all signs.

I don't think I'm 'off-point' or 'dodging'. I see folks here comfortable with this government report and shruggin' it off as...um o.k.

"If they are doing their job right"? I ain't comfortable with the "half-right's" doing the leaking.

312 P. Aaron  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:37:02am

re: #158 Charles

Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn do not belong in a report on "right wing extremism," and neither one of them have been a terrorist threat for at least 30 years.

Good grief.


Um yeah o.k. I guess I'm o.k. with the government classifiyng folks so that everyone's covered and equally miserable.
Law enforcement types come & goe, but those classifying what they consider 'areas of concern' never leave.

Didn't Bill Ayers write something about bombing in the 'Times on 9/11?

313 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:38:32am

re: #14 Jetpilot1101

Folks, the military polices it's own and keeps tabs on prior members. No organization allows people access to top secret information and trains them in skills most ordinary people wouldn't dream about without a little bit of oversight and vigilance. I hate to break it to all you seethers out there but when you join the military, you LOSE some of your rights. Did you hear me correctly? Yes you did, you LOSE some of your constitutional rights when you sign up. It's part of the package and believe me, it is necessary to ensure good order and discipline.

Yep; in order to defend our nation and its Constitution in the US military, you agree to surrender some of your constitutional rights. Military personnel are not under the US Constitution, but under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), including Article 134, the infamous General Article, that allows you to be charged for anything that pisses your superiors off but isn't covered in all of the others.

The US military is not, and cannot be, a democracy. Not and be effective. No military can.

314 Radar G  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:40:39am

In most cases, General Article is just thrown on top of other charges to ensure some more punishment. I've never heard of anyone getting charged only with Article 134.

315 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:42:16am

re: #18 elBarto

11 Facism is an off shoot of socialism. Musolini was a socialist before he came up with facism. NAZI is short for National Socialist German Workers Party. Hardly sounds right wing to me.

And the Peoples Republic of China sounds like a republic, not a communist state. So?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

316 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:47:45am

re: #296 funky chicken

And what does that have to do with Vicente Fox?

317 iceman1960  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:00:00pm

When is the DHS going to check into Obama's association with domestic terrorists?

318 n2stox  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:04:11pm

Frankly, I'm not up in arms about the mention of veterans and former soldiers. If there are fanatics out there looking to cause grave harm, then we need to do what we can to stop them before they act.

I take issue with the report, in general, as it routinely mentions certain ideologies, and labels those who hold such ideas as potential threats.

The report specifically mentions immigration, taxation, gun control, abortion, and national sovereignity as issues that "extremists" are concerned with. it further states that extremist organizations might use these issue to facilitate better recruitment. So what? We actually have unindicted co-conspirators against our nation running around, and we're now going to focus on those groups that dislike high taxes?

The report came across to me as an indictment of virtually every conservative ethos I hold. Some I hold more than others, but I hold them nonetheless. Furthermore, the undertone of the report suggests that if you have a viewpoint different than Obama's on these, then you could be a danger.

Stating that the military is “in an effort to identify those current or former soldiers who pose a domestic terrorism threat" is a far cry from stating that people who hold certain opinions could be prone to extreme violence. Oh, and it just so happens that the opinions they are referring to practically encompass the entire conservative platform.

Then, take this in the context of Obama beginning the process of opening up Gitmo and of Napolitano refusing to use the word "terrorist" when referring Islamist radicals that actually have already attacked our country. Add to that the current SCOTUS case where the FEC is trying to regulate a biopic movie on Hillary.

The overall portrait of what is happening should, at the minimum, raise an eyebrow

Nothing these people do is coincidence.

A trend is not a trend out of the gate. Trends begin as individual anecdotes. I just hope in the future, we're not all posting on this topic by saying "Why didn't we see it coming?"

319 HDrepub  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:19:18pm

re: #14 Jetpilot1101

Folks, the military polices it's own and keeps tabs on prior members. No organization allows people access to top secret information and trains them in skills most ordinary people wouldn't dream about without a little bit of oversight and vigilance. I hate to break it to all you seethers out there but when you join the military, you LOSE some of your rights. Did you hear me correctly? Yes you did, you LOSE some of your constitutional rights when you sign up. It's part of the package and believe me, it is necessary to ensure good order and discipline.

It's been a long time since I served in the US Army, longer than I like to admit sometimes, but I wonder if when you enter military service if some questions about one's self that must be answered still include: Do you now or have you ever been a member of the following organizations considered subversive? There was quite a list, IIRC, including the KKK and the W.E.B. Dubois Club.

320 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:19:41pm

re: #316 Occasional Reader

My original point was that our policy toward Mexico during the Bush years was detrimental to national security. I actually think it was more detrimental in a concrete fashion than Obama's making smiley faces at Thugo Chavez. Daniel Ortega is a bastard, but again, I don't see him as a threat to my security. Unfettered illegal immigration that has allowed a huge influx of Mexican drug cartel affiliates? um....

321 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:20:46pm

KKK and the W.E.B. Dubois Club

LOL that would certainly cover all the ideological bases, wouldn't it?

322 HDrepub  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:22:45pm

re: #321 funky chicken

KKK and the W.E.B. Dubois Club

LOL that would certainly cover all the ideological bases, wouldn't it?

There was a longer list, that is just two that I recall. Being a dumb ol' country boy I had never heard of the W.E.B. Dubois Club, let alone have been a member LOL.

323 meh130  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:01:03pm

I just found this on Wikipedia:

Pournelle chart

A two dimensional political spectrum chart created by the great Jerry Pournelle for his 1963 political science Ph.D. dissertation.

This is interesting, because when you think of someone like Timothy McVeigh, who is often considered "right wing", you realize (if you know anything about McVeigh), his views personified Pournelle's "State as the ultimate evil" definition, which puts McVeigh on the opposite end of the statism axis compared to Nazis. McVeigh would be defined by Pournelle as a classical anarchist. But most of us would consider a classical anarchist to be a dope smoking, maggot infested, FM type protesting a WTO meeting.

Perhaps we need to make a political spectrum cube which combines the Pournelle chart and the Nolan chart.

324 William Woody  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:26:59pm

Just to throw in my two cents,

My only issue with the DHS report and the way it was released and reported on is that it illustrates again the hypocrisy of the mainstream media.

Are there right-wing extremist groups? Yes. And they can be quite dangerous. Are there left-wing extremist groups? Yes. And they can also be quite dangerous. Are there those groups who label themselves right-wing who should be labeled left-wing and visa-versa? Yes, absolutely. They're all dangerous groups, and I'm glad that DHS and the FBI are both keeping an eye on these folks. Terrorists and extremists are terrorists and extremists regardless of their political persuasion--and I would assert that their political persuasion is often an excuse for thugs and wanna-be malcontents to engage in violence.

My issue, however, is on how it was reported--or rather, on how it wasn't reported. To the best of my knowledge, no such report has been issued by the DHS covering left-wing extremist groups as a collective. Yes, there have been reports on various groups who are left-wing, but to the best of my knowledge there are no reports which paint the entire left in one brush in the same way this report paints the right. (And yes, I read the report.)

I honestly don't even have a problem with that, as it goes. But if a report on "left-wing extremist groups" by DHS, I strongly believe the outrage by the mainstream media would have been loud and widespread and somewhat paranoid in their denouncement of the government, forcing DHS (and other government agencies) to rewrite their reports in terms of specific groups rather than of a general movement.

The fact that such a broad stroke can be painted on the right without nary a peep strikes me as interesting.


Outside of my fascination at the hypocrisy of the press, however, I believe the right-wing blogosphere has made a mountain out of a molehill. At best this was worth a "huh, isn't that curious how we feel comfortable painting the right with a broad brush but God help us if we do the same to the left"--then moved on. That various groups and individuals (including some of our own home-grown right-wing wingnuts) have latched onto this as a cause celebre strikes me as just silly. And sadly, they are proving the very point in the minds of the left that this report was supposed to warn us about.

325 meh130  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:32:16pm

Another good one:

The Horseshoe Theory:

The Horseshoe theory in political science asserts that rather than the far left and the far right being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear political continuum, they in fact closely resemble one another, much like the ends of a horseshoe. The theory is attributed to Jean-Pierre Faye.

326 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:40:14pm

re: #322 HDrepub

Look it up. You will get a laugh out of their "relationship" with the KKK.

327 zeebeach  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:41:51pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

To quote the head lizard, have you read it? (Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Facsism")

328 zeebeach  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:46:34pm

re: #17 Dianna

+100 I totally agree. No problem with investigating, and even "watching", but the report and it's timing were useless and uselessly inflammatory.

329 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:08:35pm
330 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:08:50pm

re: #328 zeebeach

+100 I totally agree. No problem with investigating, and even "watching", but the report and it's timing were useless and uselessly inflammatory.

Yesterday you admitted you had not even read it. Today you're back again expressing opinions about the report. Have you read it yet?

331 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:10:07pm

re: #329 AMER1CAN

Eventually, people like you will realize that it's not a good idea to use my website to post insults to me.

332 zeebeach  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:22:46pm

re: #330 Charles

Yes, Charles, I've read it. I find it less offensive than I thought I would (based on the "excerpts" I'd read previously), but I still find it vague and, as Dianna said, not useful.

333 zeebeach  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:24:29pm

re: #330 Charles

By the way, that was Friday, not yesterday (Sunday).

334 under  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:26:15pm

Charles, I think you still completely miss the point. The FBI and other agencies are investigating "current or former soldiers who pose a domestic terrorism threat". Who is arguing that the government shouldn't investigate people who pose a domestic terrorism threat--far left or far right? You're repeatedly posting "see-I-told-you-so" posts against arguments no one is making. The objection is to DHS's definition of potential terrorist as anybody who disapproves of the direction the government is taking under the Obama administration or who doesn't hold liberal views. Or was there perhaps a DHS study under the Bush administration where potential terrorists were defined as anybody who did not hold conservative views? You must understand that, so I'm beginning to wonder why you keep making the same non-argument. I'm probably wrong, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that at least one item in DHS' list of potential terrorist indicators is something that you happen to agree with DHS on. Your persistence in refuting a non-argument just doesn't make much sense to me.

335 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:35:34pm

re: #334 under

The objection is to DHS's definition of potential terrorist as anybody who disapproves of the direction the government is taking under the Obama administration or who doesn't hold liberal views.

This is completely, ridiculously false. The DHS report says absolutely nothing that's even close to that.

336 code red 21  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:00:06pm

I went to the tea party last week in our city in which approximately 1000 people showed up. We had a few Paulians and a few truthers it was a very peaceful protest as a matter of fact the two cops looked bored. In the newspaper the next day they had an interview with a man who took his two daughters to the protest so they could witness the right wing extremists in action. That said to me that here's a young father raising his daughters to think that a peaceful protest against an overbearing, overreaching government is somehow wrong. I've never been looked at as an extremist before but now I guess I am to some people. I hope in the future he takes them to see how the other side protests so they can see the difference. I'm sure there will be more than two bored looking cops, and if the past is anything to go by, their father better be there to protect them.

337 Mike McDaniel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:20:43pm

Part of what is driving the furor is that this report has a strong whiff of the 'crazed Vietnam vet' smear prevalent in the 1970s. This left long, deep scars of distrust in the military.

Go read Kipling's poem "Tommy Atkins". Then ask yourself how much it rings true today.

338 under  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:04pm

re: #335 Charles

Charles, I realize it doesn't specifically say that in so many words. For that matter, it doesn't even mention the Obama administration as far as I know. Regardless, I should have stayed close to the wording of the report and not what I believed to be the intent. It's not really like creating a post claiming that Robertson says that DHS is run by homosexuals, but . . . (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I'm out of time today to post a response, but I'll give it a try tomorrow. In the mean time, here's a PJM post that I believe has a good perspective.

339 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:05:55pm

re: #338 under

It's not really like creating a post claiming that Robertson says that DHS is run by homosexuals, but . . . (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

True, it's not like that. (And I didn't write that, either.)

Your comment was an outright lie. That's the difference. And liars aren't welcome at my site.


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