Wednesday Night Open: Baby Trashes Bar
Baby on a binge
Video • Views: 49,358
Here’s an open thread, with hilarious video courtesy of Boing Boing.
This baby has a monkey on her back.
Youtube Video
399 comments
1 |
brookly red Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:14:46pm |
this baby has a monkey on it’s back… I don’t know. This baby owes over 40 grand… well it’s not my problem.
| 3 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:15:40pm |
day 47 of 2011 and all republicans are still too askeert to enter the presdential race
imma gonna start keepin’ count
| 4 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:16:45pm |
Still watching the House, live:
[Link: houselive.gov…]
They’re on Title X section of reading the funding bill, and abortion seems to be a focus.
| 5 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:19:01pm |
re: #3 engineer dog
day 47 of 2011 and all republicans are still too askeert to enter the presdential race
imma gonna start keepin’ count
Nobody wants to be the first to jump. The risk of an early flame-out is too high.
| 6 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:19:14pm |
Behold the Asscam….
Rear View Girls - Los Angeles
| 7 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:19:34pm |
Watching all these House proceedings… I think I need to go take a shower and have some ice cream.
Reposted from downstairs:
Not sure how much more of this live session I can take… I feel like I need to call Dial A Prayer or something…
☏Welcome to Dial-A-Hope. All lines are busy, but please stand by for the next available prayer assistant. For your preparation and well being we offer music for mediations:
Press 1 for those in California and Oregon:
Press 2 for those of a Indian persuasion, or Beatles fans:
Press 3 if you are a classical European:
Press 4 if you are a Republican
or Press 5 for all others:
| 8 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:25:07pm |
Another one of these is making the rounds again…..
Fun With Pain Killers
| 9 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:29:33pm |
Shirley Jackson Lee just called out the fraudulent videos that the Alabama Rep referenced, about Planned Parenthood.
| 11 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:49:22pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
Nobody wants to be the first to jump. The risk of an early flame-out is too high.
Fred Thompson’s campaign was doing great… right up until the point hat Fred Thompson declared he was officially running a campaign.
| 12 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:50:25pm |
re: #11 jamesfirecat
Fred Thompson’s campaign was doing great… right up until the point hat Fred Thompson declared he was officially running a campaign.
Possibly the laziest candidate ever.
| 14 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:03:18pm |
| 15 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:03:56pm |
| 16 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:04:42pm |
Here’s a libertarian minus the glib:
Is inflation out of control? No, not even close. Are our creditors closing our accounts? No, because our creditors know that all we need to do to pay them off is raise taxes or get out of this recession. When growth picks back up deficits will shrink. The deficit is not a problem in the first place. The whole thing is just a ruse.Meanwhile, unemployment remains sky-high and so do corporate profits. Everything is rosy except for the American worker, and to them fiscal conservatives and pundits like Sullivan say “Austerity Now” like some grotesque mimicry of that Seinfeld episode. All the hand-wringing over structural unemployment and so forth is just cover for supply-side nonsense that’s captured the American psyche from pundit and politician on down. What we are witnessing is a balance-sheet recession and a crisis of demand. Or at least that’s what all the evidence and data points to.
| 18 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:08:34pm |
Here’s a topic: The suckyness of the new DKos site.
| 19 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:14:22pm |
re: #18 recusancy
Here’s a topic: The suckyness of the new DKos site.
Ain’t seen it. Don’t plan to.
Next?
| 20 |
b_sharp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:21:06pm |
re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist
Ain’t seen it. Don’t plan to.
Next?
Are bananas really the perfect fruit?
| 21 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:21:29pm |
re: #20 b_sharp
Are bananas really the perfect fruit?
Bananas are good. We have that on authority from Dr. Who.
| 22 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:22:21pm |
re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist
Bananas are good. We have that on authority from Dr. Who.
Philly cheesesteak is the perfect food.
| 23 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:22:32pm |
re: #20 b_sharp
Are bananas really the perfect fruit?
No, my friend Eldridge is. His drag name is even Ssssstrawberry.
| 24 |
b_sharp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:22:43pm |
re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist
Bananas are good. We have that on authority from Dr. Who.
But can they be used as a weapon?
| 25 |
Stanghazi Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:22:49pm |
Hit and run from my iPhone. I’m packing my old house. Tres no fun, but wine, popcorn and top chef making it a little easier.
So, remember the discussion about NPR? Well today I heard a story about the boxer Manny Pacqiao (sp?)
He’s now a member of the Philippine congress. Very very interesting. His district doesn’t even have a school. He’s building it. Watch him in the future.
| 26 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:23:01pm |
Who has seen Angelina’s “Salt” movie?
That movie kicks ass!
| 27 |
b_sharp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:24:07pm |
re: #23 Obdicut
No, my friend Eldridge is. His drag name is even Sssstrawberry.
The Queen of fruits.
| 29 |
What, me worry? Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:27:59pm |
re: #25 stanley sea
Hit and run from my iPhone. I’m packing my old house. Tres no fun, but wine, popcorn and top chef making it a little easier.
So, remember the discussion about NPR? Well today I heard a story about the boxer Manny Pacqiao (sp?)
He’s now a member of the Philippine congress. Very very interesting. His district doesn’t even have a school. He’s building it. Watch him in the future.
Good luck to you sweets :) That’s all I wanted to say!
| 30 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:28:06pm |
re: #20 b_sharp
Are bananas really the perfect fruit?
No. Pretty much all edible banana plants are a clone from a single plant. The lack of genetic diversity means that they’re an ecological disaster waiting to happen.
| 31 |
Virginia Plain Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:28:42pm |
re: #28 b_sharp
OT
I still not sure I like surfing using an iPad.
Get another browser other than Safari, that might help. Of course it would also be nice if there was a mobile optimized version of LGF.
| 32 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:28:45pm |
| 33 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:29:28pm |
| 34 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:30:12pm |
Bahrain security forces assault sleeping protesters in capital square
The toll of two dead and 50 injured is expected to rise. The violence in the country that hosts the U.S. Navy’s 5th Fleet takes place amid continuing regional unrest.
Security forces in tiny but strategic Bahrain launched a brutal assault early Thursday against at least 1,000 defiant anti-government protesters, including women and children, camped out in tents in the capital’s Pearl Square.
| 36 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:32:01pm |
re: #33 recusancy
Glenn Beck says don’t look up his conspiracies on google because they’re part of the conspiracy.
In Beckland black helicopter laugh at you!
| 37 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:32:16pm |
re: #33 recusancy
Glenn Beck says don’t look up his conspiracies on google because they’re part of the conspiracy.
That sounds like Beck. He can’t actually have people trying to run down his “leads” because they lead nowhere.
| 38 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:33:44pm |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
No. Pretty much all edible banana plants are a clone from a single plant. The lack of genetic diversity means that they’re an ecological disaster waiting to happen.
Same with the Haas avocado (pimply skin one) all from a single tree in LA…… I think that tree recently died.
| 39 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:34:16pm |
re: #34 researchok
Bahrain security forces assault sleeping protesters in capital square
The toll of two dead and 50 injured is expected to rise. The violence in the country that hosts the U.S. Navy’s 5th Fleet takes place amid continuing regional unrest.
So now the big question: Does that enrage the demonstrators or cow them?
| 40 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:35:46pm |
re: #33 recusancy
Glenn Beck says don’t look up his conspiracies on google because they’re part of the conspiracy.
Lol…
So, who is Glenn Beck? Batshit insane Fox host, or government operative? Glenn doesn’t know. Maybe we should Google it. Or maybe not.
| 41 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:36:10pm |
re: #39 Dark_Falcon
So now the big question: Does that enrage the demonstrators or cow them?
The immediate is an unknown. We;ll know by the AM.
Long term however is pretty clear. What the authorities did will only serve to work against the regime.
| 42 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:37:26pm |
re: #26 Alouette
Who has seen Angelina’s “Salt” movie?
That movie kicks ass!
Really, I though the only good thing in it was her acting.
| 43 |
b_sharp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:37:41pm |
re: #31 Virginia Plain
Get another browser other than Safari, that might help. Of course it would also be nice if there was a mobile optimized version of LGF.
Which ones are better?
| 44 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:38:21pm |
re: #37 Dark_Falcon
That sounds like Beck. He can’t actually have people trying to run down his “leads” because they lead nowhere.
circular reasoning?
| 45 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:41:07pm |
Filing For Bankruptcy, Borders Hits Troubled Times
Too bad, but Barnes & Nobles has had them beat for a while.
| 46 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:42:08pm |
re: #44 ggt
circular reasoning?
That’s the only kind of reasoning Beck does. If he had to formulate an actual argument, his brain would shut down.
| 48 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:43:12pm |
NYU Fellow Quits After Tweets About Logan Assault
“Jesus Christ, at a moment when she is going to become a martyr and glorified we should at least remember her role as a major war monger,” Nir Rosen wrote on Twitter. He later added, “Look, she was probably groped like thousands of other women.”
Apoligies if this has already been posted.
| 49 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:45:38pm |
Looks like the wingnuts will have a new boogie-man soon. Replacing Alinsky is a man named Sharp:
Shy U.S. Intellectual Created Playbook Used in a Revolution
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]
“BOSTON — Halfway around the world from Tahrir Square in Cairo, an aging American intellectual shuffles about his cluttered brick row house in a working-class neighborhood here. His name is Gene Sharp. Stoop-shouldered and white-haired at 83, he grows orchids, has yet to master the Internet and hardly seems like a dangerous man.
But for the world’s despots, his ideas can be fatal”
| 50 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:45:40pm |
You know, I’m not unhappy about this.
Facing High Seas Drama, Japan Suspends Annual Whale Hunt
The Financial Times reports that while Japan hunts the whales under the scientific research provision, a lot of the whale meat ends up on the market, because the treaty also requires that “resources from research not be wasted.”
| 51 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:46:09pm |
re: #48 ggt
NYU Fellow Quits After Tweets About Logan Assault
Apoligies if this has already been posted.
Tradewind posted about it a couple of threads back when the thread was kinda dead.
| 52 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:46:33pm |
re: #45 ggt
Filing For Bankruptcy, Borders Hits Troubled Times
Too bad, but Barnes & Nobles has had them beat for a while.
More too bad to me in that I far prefer to shop at Boarders rather that B&N.
| 53 |
b_sharp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:46:36pm |
re: #48 ggt
NYU Fellow Quits After Tweets About Logan Assault
Apoligies if this has already been posted.
The stupid is contagious and is spreading.
| 54 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:47:28pm |
re: #52 wlewisiii
More too bad to me in that I far prefer to shop at Boarders rather that B&N.
me too!
Amazon for when I can wait, Borders for when I can’t.
| 55 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:47:44pm |
i posted a link to the Glenn Beck Conspiracy Theory Generator on a rancid wingnut beck worshipping blog, but so far they haven’t taken the challenge to see if they’re gullible enough to believe the auto-generated conspiracies…
| 56 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:47:56pm |
re: #50 ggt
You know, I’m not unhappy about this.
Intimidation works. In this case I like the outcome.
| 57 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:48:21pm |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
No. Pretty much all edible banana plants are a clone from a single plant. The lack of genetic diversity means that they’re an ecological disaster waiting to happen.
And that seems to be in progress.
Personally, I don’t eat bananas anymore. Yet many people love them and I’m sure the disappearance of the banana would be noticed.
| 58 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:49:08pm |
Ok, this is funny; Remember the much touted clip of young CPAC attendees refudiating racism?
Skip to about 6:00. Notice the gut with the red shirt and mutton chops asking the racist douche remove his Ron Paul buttons.
Now watch this clip….
That’s Mr Red Shirt Mutton Chops heckling Dick Cheney with antisemitic slurs.
/Hat Tip Dave Wiegel
| 59 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:49:12pm |
re: #57 freetoken
And that seems to be in progress.
Personally, I don’t eat bananas anymore. Yet many people love them and I’m sure the disappearance of the banana would be noticed.
bananna, chocolate frozen yogurt and a blender—-ummmmmm!
| 60 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:50:07pm |
re: #57 freetoken
And that seems to be in progress.
Personally, I don’t eat bananas anymore. Yet many people love them and I’m sure the disappearance of the banana would be noticed.
Unless they’re deep fried the American public will never notice.
| 61 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:50:37pm |
Oh, damn. Just got an email from the School District that there will be no school tomorrow as well. After seeing the pictures in the NYTimes, Madison really is starting to feel a bit like Cairo. I think tomorrow my son and I need to join the folks on the Capitol Square.
Anyone got the number to call to invite an Al-Jazeera truck to Madison, WI???
| 62 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:51:31pm |
re: #50 ggt
You know, I’m not unhappy about this.
Next on Animal Planet: The Sea Shepherds do the Happy Hippie Dance.
| 63 |
Stanghazi Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:51:52pm |
re: #39 Dark_Falcon
So now the big question: Does that enrage the demonstrators or cow them?
Damn it
| 64 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:51:54pm |
Bob Barker Helps 25 Bolivian Lions Find A U.S. Home
Lions look so cute and are sooooo dangerous
| 65 |
Interesting Times Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:52:03pm |
re: #48 ggt
NYU Fellow Quits After Tweets About Logan Assault
Apoligies if this has already been posted.
It was discussed on the morning thread. Interesting to note that he seems to be the only person who actually apologized for his stupid remarks and had to suffer some real-world consequences.
| 66 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:52:54pm |
re: #61 wlewisiii
Oh, damn. Just got an email from the School District that there will be no school tomorrow as well. After seeing the pictures in the NYTimes, Madison really is starting to feel a bit like Cairo. I think tomorrow my son and I need to join the folks on the Capitol Square.
Anyone got the number to call to invite an Al-Jazeera truck to Madison, WI???
Let the bill pass. Government workers should not collectively bargain. I hope the bill passes.
| 67 |
b_sharp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:54:12pm |
re: #62 Dark_Falcon
Next on Animal Planet: The Sea Shepherds do the Happy Hippie Dance.
Anything that stops the hunting of whales is good.
| 68 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:54:15pm |
re: #48 ggt
NYU Fellow Quits After Tweets About Logan Assault
Apoligies if this has already been posted.
What was most astonishing was that he is in the solid left camp. Not what you would have expected, for sure.
Regardless of his politics, he has proved himself to be an insensitive ass.
As publicityStunted notes, at least he apologized and paid the price.
The other Holier than Thou assholes ought to follow suit.
| 69 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:54:35pm |
re: #61 wlewisiii
“Madison schools and others to close on Thursday amid call for large demonstrations
The state’s largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.”
[Link: host.madison.com…]
| 70 |
b_sharp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:55:02pm |
re: #66 Dark_Falcon
Let the bill pass. Government workers should not collectively bargain. I hope the bill passes.
Why?
| 71 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:55:10pm |
| 72 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:55:14pm |
| 73 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:55:30pm |
| 74 |
Interesting Times Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:56:19pm |
re: #72 Dark_Falcon
Did I say something wrong?
I think Stanley Sea was referring to what you were referring to.
| 75 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:56:52pm |
re: #48 ggt
NYU Fellow Quits After Tweets About Logan Assault
Apoligies if this has already been posted.
Yeah, Tradewind linked it at the end of the thread about Logan.
Good God, this has brought the scum to the surface.
| 76 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:57:44pm |
re: #65 publicityStunted
It was discussed on the morning thread. Interesting to note that he seems to be the only person who actually apologized for his stupid remarks and had to suffer some real-world consequences.
Well, he had a real job. The rest of them are just bloggers.
/
| 77 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:58:08pm |
Sorry DF, I’m not going to rehash the argument tonight. But my FiL grew up in a company town with his father paid in script so I believe deep in my soul that everyone deserves representation.
That little [censored] governor of ours needs to understand basic economics and simply raise taxes. We don’t want to live in a third world hell hole like some parts of this nation are already becoming.
| 78 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:58:14pm |
re: #65 publicityStunted
It was discussed on the morning thread. Interesting to note that he seems to be the only person who actually apologized for his stupid remarks and had to suffer some real-world consequences.
Yabbutt…. what he said was horrible……. Twitter is accessible to the masses. A person in that position should know better.
| 79 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:58:52pm |
re: #68 researchok
What was most astonishing was that he is in the solid left camp. Not what you would have expected, for sure.
Dunno why not. They hate her because she’s a liberal, he hates her because she’s a warmonger—it’s all the same thing. Dehumanizing people who are symbols of something you don’t like.
| 80 |
Four More Tears Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:59:28pm |
re: #66 Dark_Falcon
Let the bill pass. Government workers should not collectively bargain. I hope the bill passes.
Well said from someone who has very little faith and trust in the government…
| 81 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:59:44pm |
re: #70 b_sharp
Why?
Because I feel that allowing collective bargaining by public sector workers results in a ratchet effect of pensions and benefits and has left many state budgets in dire straights. I view this bill in Wisconsin as a step in the right direct. The GOP must stand firm on its home ground and overcome the unions. After the battle is won and the unions defanged, the state will be in a better budget position.
| 82 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:00:35pm |
re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist
Dunno why not. They hate her because she’s a liberal, he hates her because she’s a warmonger—it’s all the same thing. Dehumanizing people who are symbols of something you don’t like.
That’s on the money, for sure.
Politics and our brave new world.
As they say, Oy.
| 83 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:01:17pm |
The police, meanwhile, have developed software to read bee communications. As Mr. Machan explains, “There’s a video camera in each hive. And what we’re able to do is to decode that, to tell us where the location of the pollen is.” In the video, a computer seems to lock onto the waggle dance and transmit decoding signals in green, red and blue.
You know, this is really cool, but I found it humorous.
| 84 |
What, me worry? Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:02:06pm |
re: #58 Killgore Trout
It’s ok to be racist against Jews. It’s all the rage, you know.
I also like how the Republican dude forced the meme that only Democrats are racists.
It’s a world, world, world, world mad.
| 86 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:02:48pm |
re: #83 ggt
You know, this is really cool, but I found it humorous.
That has to be a Top Ten story of the year.
| 87 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:02:57pm |
re: #81 Dark_Falcon
Because I feel that allowing collective bargaining by public sector workers results in a ratchet effect of pensions and benefits and has left many state budgets in dire straights. I view this bill in Wisconsin as a step in the right direct. The GOP must stand firm on its home ground and overcome the unions. After the battle is won and the unions defanged, the state will be in a better budget position.
we are not deep in debt because firefighters, policemen, teachers, and garbagemen have decent pensions and benefits
if the unions are “defanged”, all of us have less protection from unscrupulous employers
see revolution, industrial
| 88 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:03:21pm |
re: #77 wlewisiii
Sorry DF, I’m not going to rehash the argument tonight. But my FiL grew up in a company town with his father paid in script so I believe deep in my soul that everyone deserves representation.
That little [censored] governor of ours needs to understand basic economics and simply raise taxes. We don’t want to live in a third world hell hole like some parts of this nation are already becoming.
He does understand economics. Cutting the unions back will allow positive structural reforms.
Note however, that I only apply this to public sectors workers. I do not have an objection to private sector unions.
| 89 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:03:45pm |
re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, Tradewind linked it at the end of the thread about Logan.
Good God, this has brought the scum to the surface.
I think what got me was: “He later added, “Look, she was probably groped like thousands of other women.”
Groped? Tells me this man is not someone I would want in my life.
| 90 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:05:04pm |
re: #87 engineer dog
we are not deep in debt because firefighters, policemen, teachers, and garbagemen have decent pensions and benefits
if the unions are “defanged”, all of us have less protection from unscrupulous employers
see revolution, industrial
No states are in debt because government workers have unsustainably high benefits packages. It’s time to wind down pensions in favor of 401(k) plans, anyhow.
| 91 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:05:12pm |
re: #89 ggt
I think what got me was: “He later added, “Look, she was probably groped like thousands of other women.”
Groped? Tells me this man is not someone I would want in my life.
This story just mystifies me.
Not what I would have expected from him. Ever.
| 93 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:06:10pm |
re: #73 engineer dog
Government workers
???
Hard-working government employees
???
Publicly funded government title holders
???
Government
???
see: moron, oxy
| 95 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:08:05pm |
re: #88 Dark_Falcon
He does understand economics. Cutting the unions back will allow positive structural reforms.
Note however, that I only apply this to public sectors workers. I do not have an objection to private sector unions.
He has no interest in structural reform. This is the same twit who threw away the high speed rail money & jobs because he couldn’t divert it into the pockets of his campaign supporters. But even though we’re supposedly so broke that we have to play union buster, his campaign supporters are repaid with a Billion (yes, 1 billion) dollar project to unnecessarily widen Interstate 90/39 through southern Wisconsin.
He does not care about my son’s future. Only about his and his friends short term wealth.
| 96 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:08:47pm |
re: #91 researchok
This story just mystifies me.
Not what I would have expected from him. Ever.
Never heard of the guy before this.
| 97 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:09:41pm |
re: #90 Dark_Falcon
No states are in debt because government workers have unsustainably high benefits packages. It’s time to wind down pensions in favor of 401(k) plans, anyhow.
no, states are in debt because 1) we are in the deepest recession since the great depression and 2) they have failed to manage their budgets properly to fund the things their citizens and employees need and deserve
this meme that we need to hurt workers because of some “debt crisis” has got social prorities ass backwards
| 98 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:09:55pm |
re: #66 Dark_Falcon
Let the bill pass. Government workers should not collectively bargain. I hope the bill passes.
So you feel every government employee should have to argue on their own for their job?
| 99 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:10:17pm |
re: #90 Dark_Falcon
You act as though the unions can simply demand whatever they want, and get it.
That’s not how it want.
The states agreed to the pensions, often in lieu of pay raises.
That may have been a bad decision, but it was not one solely on the unions.
In many states, if the pension plans had been properly funded, instead of raided on a regular basis, we wouldn’t have this problem.
| 100 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:10:33pm |
re: #93 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Government workers
???
Hard-working government employees
???
Publicly funded government title holders
???
Government
???
see: moron, oxy
Hi. Glad you’re here. DF was in danger of starting an arguable case against public-sector employees.
| 101 |
Four More Tears Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:10:57pm |
Oooo… Stewart just smacked Sessions in the face.
| 102 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:11:02pm |
re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist
Never heard of the guy before this.
Me either……. I thought maybe researchok meant because he was a liberal?
| 103 |
prairiefire Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:11:08pm |
re: #93 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Government workers
???
Hard-working government employees
???
Publicly funded government title holders
???
Government
???
see: moron, oxy
Try saying that to the next state trouper you meet.
| 104 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:11:24pm |
| 105 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:11:43pm |
re: #81 Dark_Falcon
Because I feel that allowing collective bargaining by public sector workers results in a ratchet effect of pensions and benefits and has left many state budgets in dire straights. I view this bill in Wisconsin as a step in the right direct. The GOP must stand firm on its home ground and overcome the unions. After the battle is won and the unions defanged, the state will be in a better budget position.
Or you know… the states could just raise taxes in order to pay what they promised.
Why don’t the unions deserve what they were promised by the government?
| 106 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:12:12pm |
re: #95 wlewisiii
He has no interest in structural reform. This is the same twit who threw away the high speed rail money & jobs because he couldn’t divert it into the pockets of his campaign supporters. But even though we’re supposedly so broke that we have to play union buster, his campaign supporters are repaid with a Billion (yes, 1 billion) dollar project to unnecessarily widen Interstate 90/39 through southern Wisconsin.
He does not care about my son’s future. Only about his and his friends short term wealth.
Now it’s my turn: Prove it.
| 107 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:12:51pm |
re: #88 Dark_Falcon
He does understand economics. Cutting the unions back will allow positive structural reforms.
Note however, that I only apply this to public sectors workers. I do not have an objection to private sector unions.
What if a public sector company works for the government?
| 108 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:12:52pm |
let me put it this way: if you lose your job, do you declare that overe: #93 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Hard-working government employees
???
see: moron, oxy
be sure to tell the firefighters all about it if your house ever catches fire
| 109 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:15:01pm |
re: #88 Dark_Falcon
Cutting the unions back will allow positive structural reforms.
or an excuse to regress working conditions for americans back a hundred years or so
are we optimistic that republicans will create “positive structural reform”?
anybody?
| 110 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:15:55pm |
Speaking of Stewart, I love the new plan for how to cover our nations debt, put a tax on anti-tax cliches….
| 111 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:15:57pm |
re: #105 jamesfirecat
Or you know… the states could just raise taxes in order to pay what they promised.
Why don’t the unions deserve what they were promised by the government?
Because it will hurt economic activity overall and won’t solve the problem. This the chance to really solve the structural problems, by cutting back the organization that forces these expensive pay and benefits packages. Cut those back, and the deficit crises will be far closer to a solution. Public section unions allow the unions to push for their own choice of boss, a key difference from private sector unions.
| 112 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:16:19pm |
| 113 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:16:30pm |
re: #109 engineer dog
or an excuse to regress working conditions for americans back a hundred years or so
are we optimistic that republicans will create “positive structural reform”?
anybody?
I am, optimistic that is.
| 114 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:17:22pm |
| 115 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:17:54pm |
re: #88 Dark_Falcon
He does understand economics. Cutting the unions back will allow positive structural reforms.
Note however, that I only apply this to public sectors workers. I do not have an objection to private sector unions.
He understands economics? He doesn’t even have a degree in anything.
| 116 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:18:25pm |
re: #111 Dark_Falcon
Because it will hurt economic activity overall and won’t solve the problem. This the chance to really solve the structural problems, by cutting back the organization that forces these expensive pay and benefits packages. Cut those back, and the deficit crises will be far closer to a solution. Public section unions allow the unions to push for their own choice of boss, a key difference from private sector unions.
is your own pay and benefits package “too expensive” and does it “hurt economic activity”?
if you work for a private company, why don’t you take a pay and benefit cut so the company doesn’t pass on the cost to me and strain my budget?
| 117 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:18:31pm |
re: #111 Dark_Falcon
Because it will hurt economic activity overall and won’t solve the problem. This the chance to really solve the structural problems, by cutting back the organization that forces these expensive pay and benefits packages. Cut those back, and the deficit crises will be far closer to a solution. Public section unions allow the unions to push for their own choice of boss, a key difference from private sector unions.
Which are we arguing about here Dark, the economy or the deficit?
Because if you want to argue about the deficit, I think that maybe we should have kept our promise to the unions and also kept our promise that we would raise the taxes on those making $250 K or more a year up 3% again a decade after Bush’ tax cuts were put in place.
| 118 |
prairiefire Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:19:06pm |
| 119 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:19:16pm |
Speaking as a city worker we don’t do as well as you think we do. Most government workers are not even union. The last two years we’ve been working with a 7.5% pay cut and they are probably going to take another 7.5% the next two years. We make a good 20% less than our private sector counterparts. Our retirement is pretty good but that is because we are in a dead end job for the rest of our life and we will never see pay increases aside from COLA, we haven’t had COLA for the last 3 years. The problem with our retirement, at least in CA is the governments haven’t been paying into CAL-PERS for years cause the fund was flush for money and the governments opted out of paying into it. Now they have to pay back what they were supposed to have already paid but they have already spent the money on frivolous projects for their political gain. Excuse me for sounding a little bitter about this. I would never recommend anybody go to work for local government anytime in the near or moderate future.
| 120 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:19:25pm |
re: #113 Dark_Falcon
I am, optimistic that is.
you have considerably more faith in the intelligence and competence of politicians than i do
| 121 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:19:29pm |
| 122 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:19:50pm |
re: #115 recusancy
He understands economics? He doesn’t even have a degree in anything.
So now you need a degree to be governor or understand budget reform? I hardly think that the case. As I understand it, he ran a business. That’s better leadership training than any university classroom.
| 123 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:20:23pm |
re: #118 prairiefire
Does he have you in his thrall?
No, I read his book- which was good, but he wrote it to fit his world view.
| 124 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:20:45pm |
| 125 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:20:48pm |
re: #116 engineer dog
is your own pay and benefits package “too expensive” and does it “hurt economic activity”?
if you work for a private company, why don’t you take a pay and benefit cut so the company doesn’t pass on the cost to me and strain my budget?
Dark from my understanding works for a privately run company… but one that is heavily dependent upon government spending (since he groaned about how his job/company would do much worse unless the military spending bill got passed) but he doesn’t actively work for the government so its okay for him to keep his collective bargaining rights!
(Not I piece this together only from what I can recall of what Dark has posted here so far so if I am correct on any part of it please correct me…)
| 126 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:21:18pm |
re: #122 Dark_Falcon
I run a business. Are you going to start listening to me on economics now?
| 127 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:21:49pm |
re: #102 Mr Pancakes
Me either… I thought maybe researchok meant because he was a liberal?
Liberals are just as capable of chewing on their toes as anyone else.
| 128 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:21:53pm |
re: #121 Mr Pancakes
Well… he got his 15 minutes and it wasn’t good.
Yup- Stupid can afflict anyone.
| 129 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:22:04pm |
1) governments cut workers, benefits, and pensions to try and balance their budget
2) the victims of these cost cutting measure are not able to pay the taxes to the state that they used to, and are not able to buy as much, leading to less taxes that the vendors who they used to patronize can pay
3) because of this the state ends up with less tax income, leading to calls for another round of the viscious cycle
| 130 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:22:57pm |
re: #117 jamesfirecat
Which are we arguing about here Dark, the economy or the deficit?
Because if you want to argue about the deficit, I think that maybe we should have kept our promise to the unions and also kept our promise that we would raise the taxes on those making $250 K or more a year up 3% again a decade after Bush’ tax cuts were put in place.
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
| 131 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:23:00pm |
re: #106 Dark_Falcon
Here’s a link to the current version of the budget bill that’s likely to be passed on Friday. [Link: legis.wisconsin.gov…] This is simply the slash and burn parts he wants before the real budget is proposed. Even without the I90 proposal funding this is a backwards step by someone who simply want an excuse to not have to honor the promises made by this state previously.
As I said before, I want to stay living in a decent state not a clone of Mississippi.
| 132 |
Four More Tears Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:23:14pm |
re: #126 Obdicut
I run a business. Are you going to start listening to me on economics now?
Are you a Republican? No? Then it doesn’t matter.
| 133 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:23:49pm |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
Screw the fucking fat cats they’ve looted us enough and have done precious little to give back to the economy which made them so rich in the first place!
| 134 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:23:59pm |
re: #119 mracb
…snip Excuse me for sounding a little bitter about this. I would never recommend anybody go to work for local government anytime in the near or moderate future.
And if people take your advice the government will be filled with the employees-of-last resort. Just as the RW has always imagined.
| 135 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:24:21pm |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
I can say the same exact thing about the oil subsidies.
Interesting, no?
| 136 |
prairiefire Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:24:28pm |
re: #126 Obdicut
I run a business. Are you going to start listening to me on economics now?
I would listen to you on economics.
My economics professor in college was such a geek he would lean against the chalk board and do finger push ups while he lectured.
| 137 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:24:29pm |
re: #122 Dark_Falcon
So now you need a degree to be governor or understand budget reform? I hardly think that the case. As I understand it, he ran a business. That’s better leadership training than any university classroom.
He graduated from Delavan-Darien High School in 1986 then attended Marquette University from 1986 to 1990.[1] A letter from Marquette indicated that he quit about 36 credit hours short of graduation, and his campaign has said that he had a grade point average in the C’s.[4]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
And nope he never ran a business.
| 138 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:24:31pm |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
Also Dark from what I understand those unions had a contract….
Am I wrong?
Why is it okay to break that contract?
| 139 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:25:15pm |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
Precisely when did contracts stop being “sacred”? Or is that only some contracts?
| 140 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:26:02pm |
re: #125 jamesfirecat
Dark from my understanding works for a privately run company… but one that is heavily dependent upon government spending (since he groaned about how his job/company would do much worse unless the military spending bill got passed) but he doesn’t actively work for the government so its okay for him to keep his collective bargaining rights!
(Not I piece this together only from what I can recall of what Dark has posted here so far so if I am correct on any part of it please correct me…)
My company doesn’t have a union and inside sales is not a job suited to unionization, anyways. It’s far to based on meeting sales quotas, and unions don’t work well with commission sales positions. On that last one I speak from experience.
| 141 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:26:11pm |
re: #129 engineer dog
But you forgot the important part, number 4:
4) The rich, having more money in their pockets, will buy more Benzes and Gucci’s, all of which create more jobs requiring more car washers and shoe-shiners - you know, the real jobs brown people poor people are supposed to do.
| 143 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:27:21pm |
Now toward the end of a thread a couple threads back, someone posted the overall pay scale of teachers in the US, as proof that we’re not as underpaid as people believe.
Turns out that if you teach for twenty years, you may well end up making ALMOST fifty-eight thousand annually. This in a job that requires a four-year degree and a credential, along with continuing professional education.
| 144 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:27:45pm |
re: #134 Decatur Deb
And if people take your advice the government will be filled with the employees-of-last resort. Just as the RW has always imagined.
We are already having problems with filling positions, assuming they don’t get eliminated from budget cuts. Our tax base has contracted at least 25-30% in the last 2.5 years.
| 145 |
Four More Tears Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:28:15pm |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
Now toward the end of a thread a couple threads back, someone posted the overall pay scale of teachers in the US, as proof that we’re not as underpaid as people believe.
Turns out that if you teach for twenty years, you may well end up making ALMOST fifty-eight thousand annually. This in a job that requires a four-year degree and a credential, along with continuing professional education.
Yeah, but your lazy asses get the summer off!
///
| 146 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:29:12pm |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, yes, but since most teachers work for public schools, and thus are funded by government programs, those teaching jobs are not real jobs. 58 grand is pretty good for an unreal job.
| 147 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:30:30pm |
re: #140 Dark_Falcon
My company doesn’t have a union and inside sales is not a job suited to unionization, anyways. It’s far to based on meeting sales quotas, and unions don’t work well with commission sales positions. On that last one I speak from experience.
I won’t disagree with you that there are probably some jobs that are ill suited to unionization.
I happen to work at a start up company.
My position is not only ill suited to being a union job, it’s ill suited to being a “job” at all (I and my fellow co-workers are most likely going to be made “partners” in the company once we’ve got the situation checked out) since if I was an employee the company would need to come up with the liquid capital to pay me minimum wage for the 40 hours a week give or take I’ve been doing for the last five months, instead of just offering me sweat equity.
None the less… I can’t imagine any situation in which taking the employer rather than the employees deciding to take unionization off the table will lead to good things….
| 148 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:30:50pm |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
i come from a family of doctors and lawyers, college educated folks
it was drilled into me at an early age that just because i had a college education and wore a suit to work that i should never, never look down on anybody else who had a job
and that goes double for people who have jobs that call for them to risk their lives
| 149 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:32:37pm |
re: #148 engineer dog
i come from a family of doctors and lawyers, college educated folks
it was drilled into me at an early age that just because i had a college education and wore a suit to work that i should never, never look down on anybody else who had a job
and that goes double for people who have jobs that call for them to risk their lives
You mean like fire fighters, or police men, both groups that I believe have public sector unions?
(And yee-gods don’t get me started on what happens if you try to privatize either of those services….)
| 150 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:32:39pm |
re: #102 Mr Pancakes
Me either… I thought maybe researchok meant because he was a liberal?
I considered Rosen to be a smart guy, irrespective of his politics.
I really don’t gauge relevance by politics. TNR and NRO are daily reads.
Smart people are worth reading/listening to. I don’t have to agree with a point of view to consider that POV valid.
Too many people believe if they don’t expose themselves to differing views (and I’m not not talking about the morons) they retain ‘purity’, as if somehow that mattered.
That’s why the GOP won the last round of elections. The voters believed the Dems to be out of touch with their realities- and that’s why the Dems will win the WH back in 2012, because the GOP base won’t give Obama the right time of day. The desire to beat him at every turn will come back and haunt the GOP and TP. The election is their to lose and they will do just that.
The progressives will not allow a conservative to be meaningful and relevant (ask yourself when the last time a progressive said ‘Hey, that’s a good idea!) and then ask yourself when the last time you heard a TP guy say ‘Hey, that progressive has a good idea!
So in the end, we all get screwed. Repeatedly.
| 151 |
Four More Tears Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:33:31pm |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
Damn looters and moochers!
| 152 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:33:57pm |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
Now toward the end of a thread a couple threads back, someone posted the overall pay scale of teachers in the US, as proof that we’re not as underpaid as people believe.
Turns out that if you teach for twenty years, you may well end up making ALMOST fifty-eight thousand annually. This in a job that requires a four-year degree and a credential, along with continuing professional education.
Here was the post you were thinking of in all its self defeating glory.
| 153 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:34:02pm |
re: #145 JasonA
Yeah, but your lazy asses get the summer off!
///
Not in Alabama—we do an erratic year-round school that wrecks the teachers’ (and kids’) chance for summer employment. And we start the public teachers at 42K.
| 154 |
prairiefire Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:34:41pm |
re: #150 researchok
I said David Brooks had a good idea the other day.
| 155 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:35:03pm |
re: #151 JasonA
Damn looters and moochers!
Just don’t complain about CEOs looting and mooching off their Corps.
That’s capitalism!
| 156 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:35:24pm |
| 157 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:35:34pm |
re: #149 jamesfirecat
You mean like fire fighters, or police men, both groups that I believe have public sector unions?
yup
excuse me if i’m getting angry, but it really burns me up when i hear all this spitting on hard working people and demands that they take less
| 158 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:36:18pm |
re: #150 researchok
I considered Rosen to be a smart guy, irrespective of his politics.
I really don’t gauge relevance by politics. TNR and NRO are daily reads.
Smart people are worth reading/listening to. I don’t have to agree with a point of view to consider that POV valid.
Too many people believe if they don’t expose themselves to differing views (and I’m not not talking about the morons) they retain ‘purity’, as if somehow that mattered.
That’s why the GOP won the last round of elections. The voters believed the Dems to be out of touch with their realities- and that’s why the Dems will win the WH back in 2012, because the GOP base won’t give Obama the right time of day. The desire to beat him at every turn will come back and haunt the GOP and TP. The election is their to lose and they will do just that.
The progressives will not allow a conservative to be meaningful and relevant (ask yourself when the last time a progressive said ‘Hey, that’s a good idea!) and then ask yourself when the last time you heard a TP guy say ‘Hey, that progressive has a good idea!
So in the end, we all get screwed. Repeatedly.
” (ask yourself when the last time a progressive said ‘Hey, that’s a good idea!) “
I said it when I found out that Finland has a system where Teachers are paid as much as doctors.
Now if you want to amend that to “hey, that conservative has a good idea!”
Then in that case my answer would be when Ron Paul argued against extending the Patriot act….
| 159 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:36:38pm |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
Now toward the end of a thread a couple threads back, someone posted the overall pay scale of teachers in the US, as proof that we’re not as underpaid as people believe.
Turns out that if you teach for twenty years, you may well end up making ALMOST fifty-eight thousand annually. This in a job that requires a four-year degree and a credential, along with continuing professional education.
Yea, and someone (probably the same thread) said we treat out teachers like shit. I disagree.
$58k retirement is not that shabby. Not to mention they must go into the profession knowing what they will be paid(?)…. maybe they have a higher calling. God bless them.
| 160 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:36:55pm |
They’re still going at it in the House, btw. The Dems are doing lots of talking. Sometimes they have well crafted amendments, but some are just there so they can be addressed on camera.
Still, a few cracks are showing on the GOP side. When it comes to their own districts, some of the GOP reps are trying to put money back in the budget. I don’t know if the Tea Partiers will be able to hold the line and force the $100 billion cut.
| 161 |
recusancy Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:37:22pm |
re: #159 Mr Pancakes
Yea, and someone (probably the same thread) said we treat out teachers like shit. I disagree.
$58k retirement is not that shabby. Not to mention they must go into the profession knowing what they will be paid(?)… maybe they have a higher calling. God bless them.
You think we treat our teachers well???
| 162 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:37:37pm |
re: #159 Mr Pancakes
Yea, and someone (probably the same thread) said we treat out teachers like shit. I disagree.
$58k retirement is not that shabby. Not to mention they must go into the profession knowing what they will be paid(?)… maybe they have a higher calling. God bless them.
I repeat yet again, when you consider how important the job they do is for the future health of our nation… I wonder why the f*** we don’t pay them like we do doctors and lawyers?
| 163 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:39:32pm |
re: #146 freetoken
Well, yes, but since most teachers work for public schools, and thus are funded by government programs, those teaching jobs are not real jobs. 58 grand is pretty good for an unreal job.
I’ll tell ya, there are days when it seems pretty unreal to me.
The day a kid trimmed his toenails with his teeth in the middle of class in the room down the hall—that was unreal.
| 164 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:40:10pm |
re: #149 jamesfirecat
You mean like fire fighters, or police men, both groups that I believe have public sector unions?
(And yee-gods don’t get me started on what happens if you try to privatize either of those services…)
As far as I’m concerned, firefighters and cops should get the sun, moon and stars.
| 165 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:40:18pm |
re: #148 engineer dog
i come from a family of doctors and lawyers, college educated folks
it was drilled into me at an early age that just because i had a college education and wore a suit to work that i should never, never look down on anybody else who had a job
and that goes double for people who have jobs that call for them to risk their lives
I’m not looking down on cops or firefighters. What I am is sick of a system where the union demands pay and benefits increases that aren’t really affordable and goes to war with politicians who refuse. It’s not like auto workers: If you make cars, you can strike for a better pay but you don’t get to decide who owns the company. Public sector unions by contrast work to elect politicians of their choosing into office, then those office holders give them more goodies. I think that a corrupt bargain.
| 166 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:40:28pm |
re: #162 jamesfirecat
I repeat yet again, when you consider how important the job they do is for the future health of our nation… I wonder why the f*** we don’t pay them like we do doctors and lawyers?
I agree. California is broke unfortunately.
| 167 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:40:35pm |
The rep from Oregon (who always wears that green bike on his jacket) said something, in defense of restoring Public Broadcasting funding, that is no doubt true:
“The people like Public Broadcasting more than they like Congress.”
| 168 |
Four More Tears Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:40:39pm |
re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist
I’ll tell ya, there are days when it seems pretty unreal to me.
The day a kid trimmed his toenails with his teeth in the middle of class in the room down the hall—that was unreal.
A good friend of mine works in Special Education. The stories I hear make me shudder.
| 169 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:40:48pm |
re: #159 Mr Pancakes
Yea, and someone (probably the same thread) said we treat out teachers like shit. I disagree.
$58k retirement is not that shabby. Not to mention they must go into the profession knowing what they will be paid(?)… maybe they have a higher calling. God bless them.
Check the 58K number. Is that retirement, or pay at retirement (end of career)? Note that most teachers, like nurses, don’t get that far.
| 170 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:41:10pm |
re: #167 freetoken
The rep from Oregon (who always wears that green bike on his jacket) said something, in defense of restoring Public Broadcasting funding, that is no doubt true:
DEFUND CONGRESS~!
| 171 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:41:13pm |
re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist
I’ll tell ya, there are days when it seems pretty unreal to me.
The day a kid trimmed his toenails with his teeth in the middle of class in the room down the hall—that was unreal.
*Twilight Zone Theme*
| 172 |
Interesting Times Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:41:22pm |
re: #157 engineer dog
excuse me if i’m getting angry, but it really burns me up when i hear all this spitting on hard working people and demands that they take less
Of course they should. These people are your rightful masters. Give of your own salary and benefits so these blessed gods of capitalist goodness can have their tax cut.
/gag
| 173 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:41:33pm |
| 174 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:41:59pm |
re: #169 Decatur Deb
Check the 58K number. Is that retirement, or pay at retirement (end of career)? Note that most teachers, like nurses, don’t get that far.
Ask SFV I really don’t know.
| 175 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:42:01pm |
re: #160 freetoken
They’re still going at it in the House, btw. The Dems are doing lots of talking. Sometimes they have well crafted amendments, but some are just there so they can be addressed on camera.
Still, a few cracks are showing on the GOP side. When it comes to their own districts, some of the GOP reps are trying to put money back in the budget. I don’t know if the Tea Partiers will be able to hold the line and force the $100 billion cut.
On that, I hope they fail. I’d rather have a better budget bill that the Senate can actually work with.
| 176 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:42:05pm |
re: #93 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Government workers
???
Hard-working government employees
???
Publicly funded government title holders
???
Government
???
see: moron, oxy
see: head, dick
| 177 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:42:14pm |
re: #153 Decatur Deb
Not in Alabama—we do an erratic year-round school that wrecks the teachers’ (and kids’) chance for summer employment. And we start the public teachers at 42K.
That’s not bad, actually, by the industry standard.
I started at maybe 36, seven years ago.
| 178 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:43:09pm |
re: #165 Dark_Falcon
I’m not looking down on cops or firefighters. What I am is sick of a system where the union demands pay and benefits increases that aren’t really affordable and goes to war with politicians who refuse. It’s not like auto workers: If you make cars, you can strike for a better pay but you don’t get to decide who owns the company. Public sector unions by contrast work to elect politicians of their choosing into office, then those office holders give them more goodies. I think that a corrupt bargain.
Yeah, how dare there be a form of corrupt bargaining in Washington that the common man can indulge in rather than needing to spend millions of their own privately earned money to get politicians in their pocket!
| 179 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:43:18pm |
re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist
That’s not bad, actually, by the industry standard.
I started at maybe 36, seven years ago.
It’s quite recent here. The thugs took the politicians by the balls.
| 180 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:43:28pm |
re: #167 freetoken
The rep from Oregon (who always wears that green bike on his jacket) said something, in defense of restoring Public Broadcasting funding, that is no doubt true:
That’s undoubtedly true, given the perennial low approval numbers for Congress.
| 181 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:43:38pm |
re: #166 Mr Pancakes
I agree. California is broke unfortunately.
Maybe they should drop the rule about how they need a supermajority to raise taxes then.
| 182 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:44:22pm |
re: #159 Mr Pancakes
Yea, and someone (probably the same thread) said we treat out teachers like shit. I disagree.
$58k retirement is not that shabby. Not to mention they must go into the profession knowing what they will be paid(?)… maybe they have a higher calling. God bless them.
The pay is not so much the issue as the incessant demonization, and the bitching about the unions.
I’ve seen what can happen at a non-union school, and it ain’t pretty.
| 183 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:44:49pm |
| 185 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:45:44pm |
| 186 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:45:49pm |
re: #104 Varek Raith
Or veteran.
After all, the military is the biggest govt employer of all. But these anti-govt folks forget that, and the cops, firefighters, etc. The only govt employees they seem to remember are teachers and bureaucrats who enforce regulations on oppressive schemes like clean drinking water and breathable air.
| 187 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:45:50pm |
re: #181 jamesfirecat
Maybe they should drop the rule about how they need a supermajority to raise taxes then.
Who knows?
| 188 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:46:03pm |
“… not laying of Bert and Ernie with GOPink-slips”… hehe
| 189 |
Interesting Times Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:46:07pm |
re: #172 publicityStunted
Stupid blogspot won’t play nice with LGF shadowbox code. Here’s the pic I tried to post.
| 190 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:46:29pm |
re: #168 JasonA
A good friend of mine works in Special Education. The stories I hear make me shudder.
I couldn’t do Special Ed. You gotta have a calling for that.
I did enjoy subbing for Special Ed, back when I taught in public school. The aides know all the kids, and what they’re supposed to be doing, and the whole drill, but they need a warm body with a credential in the room, so I could sit with the kids and watch a movie, or grade papers while they did an assignment. It was very pleasant.
| 191 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:46:39pm |
re: #185 Decatur Deb
Are they debating gay marriage?
Next up, The Swedish Chef is here to give his thoughts immigration reform…
| 192 |
engineer cat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:46:42pm |
re: #165 Dark_Falcon
I’m not looking down on cops or firefighters. What I am is sick of a system where the union demands pay and benefits increases that aren’t really affordable
The median expected salary for a typical Police Patrol Officer in the United States is $50,002
Average Firefighter salary $47,000
and i get to sit on my ass in a comfortable cube slinging code for how much more than that? and any of us have the right to complain about salaries and benefits for policemen, garbagemen, and firemen?
really?
| 193 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:47:19pm |
re: #169 Decatur Deb
Check the 58K number. Is that retirement, or pay at retirement (end of career)? Note that most teachers, like nurses, don’t get that far.
That’s pay at retirement.
| 194 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:47:26pm |
Lol.
“The GOP should be less focused on silencing cookie monster and more focused on creating jobs.”
Lol.
| 195 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:47:29pm |
re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist
About an hour ago there was a big blow up in the House debate about special ed funding. It’s one of those areas where I think some of the GOP will break with the Tea Partiers.
| 196 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:47:35pm |
| 197 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:48:10pm |
re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist
This child was an interesting young person.
I love when you go with understatement.
| 198 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:48:34pm |
re: #195 freetoken
About an hour ago there was a big blow up in the House debate about special ed funding. It’s one of those areas where I think some of the GOP will break with the Tea Partiers.
Must be trying to get in good with Sarah Palin…
| 199 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:48:34pm |
re: #106 Dark_Falcon
Now it’s my turn: Prove it.
Res ipsa loquitir. The thing speaks for itself.re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
Another equivalency fail. The Dems’ giveaways to unions pale in comparison to the GOP’s giveaways to large corporations.
| 200 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:49:30pm |
re: #192 engineer dog
The median expected salary for a typical Police Patrol Officer in the United States is $50,002
Average Firefighter salary $47,000
and i get to sit on my ass in a comfortable cube slinging code for how much more than that? and any of us have the right to complain about salaries and benefits for policemen, garbagemen, and firemen?
really?
Yes, I claim that right.
| 201 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:50:17pm |
re: #169 Decatur Deb
Check the 58K number. Is that retirement, or pay at retirement (end of career)? Note that most teachers, like nurses, don’t get that far.
Well I can only speak for CA, and I’d assume the teachers have about what we have as benefits, either 2.0 or 2.5% at 55 or 60 years of age. How that works is AT 55 years of age I can retire with 2.5% of my annual salary per year I have worked. Say I start at 30 years of age, I get 25 years times 2.5% or 62.5% of my best two years salaries.
| 202 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:50:46pm |
re: #199 palomino
Res ipsa loquitir. The thing speaks for itself.re: #130 Dark_Falcon
Another equivalency fail. The Dems’ giveaways to unions pale in comparison to the GOP’s giveaways to large corporations.
Do you have the numbers for that?
I would have thought the long term bennies and fed/state/union pensions would have been far greater.
| 203 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:50:52pm |
re: #179 Decatur Deb
It’s quite recent here. The thugs took the politicians by the balls.
The thing people don’t understand about the union bargaining is how relentlessly teachers would get screwed if we had no collective voice. I fondly recall the principal at a non-union school who decided midyear that each of us had to phone every parent in our homeroom class once a week to discuss their child’s progress with them. When we balked, they said they’d withhold paychecks until it happened.
| 204 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:50:58pm |
re: #194 Varek Raith
Lol.
“The GOP should be less focused on silencing cookie monster and more focused on creating jobs.”
Lol.
Nice talking point. But government doesn’t really “create” productive jobs.
| 206 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:51:54pm |
re: #178 jamesfirecat
Yeah, how dare there be a form of corrupt bargaining in Washington that the common man can indulge in rather than needing to spend millions of their own privately earned money to get politicians in their pocket!
This is all a gop bait and switch. Yes, the unions have caused some problems. But the gop would have you believe that our current fiscal mess is more a result of union malfeasance than corporate malfeasance. Last I checked, it wasn’t unions that got BofA, Citibank, AIG, et al. into trouble. Maybe GM to some extent, but even there it was corporate incompetence/malfeasance more than anything else.
| 207 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:52:01pm |
re: #200 Dark_Falcon
Yes, I claim that right.
Dark, that my friend IS A FUCKING PRIVILEGE or do you believe that we all have a right to have well paying jobs?
| 208 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:52:03pm |
The anti-PBS (R) rep just used the “if that money stays in private hand it will create more jobs” than if the money is spent by the CPB.
Hehe…
| 209 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:52:11pm |
re: #202 researchok
Do you have the numbers for that?
I would have thought the long term bennies and fed/state/union pensions would have been far greater.
And you’d likely be right.
| 210 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:52:18pm |
re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist
The thing people don’t understand about the union bargaining is how relentlessly teachers would get screwed if we had no collective voice. I fondly recall the principal at a non-union school who decided midyear that each of us had to phone every parent in our homeroom class once a week to discuss their child’s progress with them. When we balked, they said they’d withhold paychecks until it happened.
Would you like to teach evolution in Kansas without a union rep?
| 211 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:52:58pm |
re: #202 researchok
Do you have the numbers for that?
I would have thought the long term bennies and fed/state/union pensions would have been far greater.
That assumes the entire cost of the pension/bennies are due to union meddling and not, I don’t know, actually earned by people doing jobs, wouldn’t it?
| 212 |
Interesting Times Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:53:07pm |
re: #204 Dark_Falcon
Nice talking point. But government doesn’t really “create” productive jobs.
So all those private contractors paid with government money produce nothing? Fascinating.
| 213 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:53:14pm |
re: #204 Dark_Falcon
Nice talking point. But government doesn’t really “create” productive jobs.
Do you think Hoover Dam is a special effect?
| 214 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:53:16pm |
re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist
I couldn’t do Special Ed. You gotta have a calling for that.
I did enjoy subbing for Special Ed, back when I taught in public school. The aides know all the kids, and what they’re supposed to be doing, and the whole drill, but they need a warm body with a credential in the room, so I could sit with the kids and watch a movie, or grade papers while they did an assignment. It was very pleasant.
My son gets special ed on the side (as it were) as a part of his IEP. Special Ed teaching truly is a calling on the level of ministry. If there were justice in this nation they would start at a six figure salary.
| 215 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:53:33pm |
re: #207 jamesfirecat
Dark, that my friend IS A FUCKING PRIVILEGE or do you believe that we all have a right to have well paying jobs?
I have a right to talk about how people are being paid. I didn’t say that I have right to a job.
| 216 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:54:14pm |
re: #202 researchok
Do you have the numbers for that?
I would have thought the long term bennies and fed/state/union pensions would have been far greater.
I’ll let you do the research, ok?
| 217 |
Stanghazi Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:54:18pm |
re: #97 engineer dog
no, states are in debt because 1) we are in the deepest recession since the great depression and 2) they have failed to manage their budgets properly to fund the things their citizens and employees need and deserve
this meme that we need to hurt workers because of some “debt crisis” has got social prorities ass backwards
Truth. It’s always the ones not affected. I’ve got mine, you talk radio and Fox victim, YOU are the prob. Smart, thoughtful folks analyze and see thru the BS. The others? Well, we have to fight the ignorance and the digging in of heels against the meme. Tough road.
| 218 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:54:32pm |
| 219 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:54:38pm |
re: #204 Dark_Falcon
Nice talking point. But government doesn’t really “create” productive jobs.
Dark, I think you’re taking a long drive down Wing Nut Lane tonight and I don’t like what it is doing to you, you may want to step away from the keyboard for a while….
| 220 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:54:48pm |
re: #195 freetoken
About an hour ago there was a big blow up in the House debate about special ed funding. It’s one of those areas where I think some of the GOP will break with the Tea Partiers.
Let me guess, the TPers want kids with special needs to stay at home with their mommies and not get an education because it costs too much?
God bless any GOP rep who tells them where to shove it.
| 221 |
Varek Raith Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:54:54pm |
Interesting.
So public broadcasting is bad.
But corporate giveaways is a ok?
Got it.
| 222 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:54:58pm |
re: #211 jamesfirecat
That assumes the entire cost of the pension/bennies are due to union meddling and not, I don’t know, actually earned by people doing jobs, wouldn’t it?
Right- but you have state and fed legacy costs that cannot be funded. There are a whole lot of states with underfunded pensions.
I don’t know how we are supposed to deal with that.
| 223 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:55:03pm |
re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist
I couldn’t do Special Ed. You gotta have a calling for that.
I did enjoy subbing for Special Ed, back when I taught in public school. The aides know all the kids, and what they’re supposed to be doing, and the whole drill, but they need a warm body with a credential in the room, so I could sit with the kids and watch a movie, or grade papers while they did an assignment. It was very pleasant.
Two of my friends teach special ed in the Tri-Valley area. I don’t know how they do it.
| 224 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:55:18pm |
And now I’m tired and its time for me to go to bed. I need extra rest to help me do my work tomorrow.
Goodnight, all.
| 225 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:55:48pm |
Also re: #204 Dark_Falcon
Nice talking point. But government doesn’t really “create” productive jobs.
Also to point out wrong this is….
Do our soldiers do anything productive?
Do our fire fighters do anything productive?
Do our libraries do anything productive?
Do our cops do anything productive?
Do those guys who invented the internet as a way of keeping information flowing through a decentralized system that could survive a nuclear attack do anything productive?
| 226 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:56:56pm |
re: #200 Dark_Falcon
Yes, I claim that right.
How the hell? This is what I don’t get. Firefighters and cops stand ready to lay down their lives to protect the rest of us. We can’t give them enough money to live comfortably?
| 227 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:56:57pm |
re: #224 Dark_Falcon
Right behind you.
We aren’t going to solve these issues tonight.
And my head hurts.
Sleep tight, all.
Including my favorite lurkers.
Be well.
| 228 |
TedStriker Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:57:10pm |
re: #215 Dark_Falcon
I have a right to talk about how people are being paid. I didn’t say that I have right to a job.
Just as you have the right to believe that public servants in general are overpaid, I have the right to tell you that I think you’re wrong, specifically when talking about police, fire, EMS, and teachers.
Those are jobs that one doesn’t get into for the money, but because you want to do those jobs…and few of them get paid what they deserve.
| 229 |
jaunte Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:57:30pm |
re: #222 researchok
Right- but you have state and fed legacy costs that cannot be funded. There are a whole lot of states with underfunded pensions.
I don’t know how we are supposed to deal with that.
Some related info from Chicago:
…fresh off a 66 percent rise in the state income tax, there is little appetite for tax increases in Chicago. Since about 83 percent of Chicago’s Corporate Fund (the local equivalent of a General Fund) is spent on employee compensation, spending cuts will have to include cuts in spending on public workers.[Link: www.publicsectorinc.com…]
| 231 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:58:23pm |
re: #215 Dark_Falcon
I have a right to talk about how people are being paid. I didn’t say that I have right to a job.
Okay fair enough I misread the original post which I thought was stated as those of us who have much better more relaxing non life threatening jobs don’t have a right to bitch about how much cops/fireifghters make..
So I’ll admit I was wrong in regards to that comment and take back my down ding…
| 232 |
Stanghazi Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:58:33pm |
re: #119 mracb
Speaking as a city worker we don’t do as well as you think we do. Most government workers are not even union. The last two years we’ve been working with a 7.5% pay cut and they are probably going to take another 7.5% the next two years. We make a good 20% less than our private sector counterparts. Our retirement is pretty good but that is because we are in a dead end job for the rest of our life and we will never see pay increases aside from COLA, we haven’t had COLA for the last 3 years. The problem with our retirement, at least in CA is the governments haven’t been paying into CAL-PERS for years cause the fund was flush for money and the governments opted out of paying into it. Now they have to pay back what they were supposed to have already paid but they have already spent the money on frivolous projects for their political gain. Excuse me for sounding a little bitter about this. I would never recommend anybody go to work for local government anytime in the near or moderate future.
Holy shit, the real life. Thanks for posting & if one person can change or at least rethink their stance, we are better.
| 233 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:58:37pm |
re: #222 researchok
We were supposed to deal with it by properly funding the pensions. But we didn’t. It is a failure of the government, definitely. But it was not a failure of the unions.
There are probably cases where the compensation for public sector union employees is beyond what it should be. There also are a lot of cases, like general teacher salaries, where I feel the salaries are far too low.
Whenever we’re talking about pensions, we should acknowledge that these are contracts, made by two collectively bargaining parties, and that it’s not the union “demanding” things.
Pensions represent a debt that is owed to those workers.
| 234 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:59:08pm |
re: #228 talon_262
You can add traffic signal technicians to that, too. ;)
| 235 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:59:21pm |
re: #222 researchok
Right- but you have state and fed legacy costs that cannot be funded. There are a whole lot of states with underfunded pensions.
I don’t know how we are supposed to deal with that.
RAISE FUCKING TAXES!
| 236 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:00:19pm |
re: #229 jaunte
Some related info from Chicago:
I’m no Rahm fan, but at least he’s addressing the problem.
Everybody wants everyone else to pick up the ball. Wishful thinking,
Good link.
| 238 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:00:54pm |
re: #235 jamesfirecat
RAISE FUCKING TAXES!
You couldn’t raise them enough to fix California without a revolt.
| 239 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:01:01pm |
re: #225 jamesfirecat
Also
Also to point out wrong this is…
Do our soldiers do anything productive?
Do our fire fighters do anything productive?
Do our libraries do anything productive?
Do our cops do anything productive?
Do those guys who invented the internet as a way of keeping information flowing through a decentralized system that could survive a nuclear attack do anything productive?
And people who live in cities overwhelmingly support all of those. I think what we’re seeing is largely a Two Americas, but I don’t mean the one John Edwards talked about. Rural folks and some suburbanites are generally far more anti-government; to them, it’s something they pay for where all the benefits go to urbanites, most of whom are poor and/or minorities.
This is the culture and info war going on now: rural vs. urban. The old social issues are still at play—guns, God, gays, etc. But now there’s the larger tea party philosophy that brings it all together and goes way beyond one issue—it’s a whole perspective on modern life in our great country.
| 240 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:01:16pm |
re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist
Let me guess, the TPers want kids with special needs to stay at home with their mommies and not get an education because it costs too much?
The TPers want to eliminate all Federal funding for education, and the Dept of Education itself. Whether the student is special ed or not doesn’t seem to be a concern of theirs.
| 241 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:01:22pm |
re: #238 Mr Pancakes
You couldn’t raise them enough to fix California without a revolt.
You can’t raise them at all in California due to a stupid law saying you need a supermajority to raise them.
| 243 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:02:08pm |
re: #241 jamesfirecat
You can’t raise them at all in California due to a stupid law saying you need a supermajority to raise them.
Well… there you go.
| 244 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:03:05pm |
re: #235 jamesfirecat
RAISE FUCKING TAXES!
But that’s what Europeans and Canadians do. And if the right has taught us anything, it’s that we must ignore those countries, never examining their approach for possible lessons we could learn. It’s a sort of nativism or American exceptionalism gone wild.
| 245 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:03:07pm |
Speaking of unions, some Republican just rose to discuss his amendment to attack the NLRB.
| 246 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:03:11pm |
re: #235 jamesfirecat
RAISE FUCKING TAXES!
On who? The numbers are astronomical. The higher income earners can’t carry the burden alone.
Then you have the matter of private pension obligations. They will ask the taxpayers to pick up their underfunded pensions.
Lastly, the actuarial tables forecast bigger problems for pensions.
We’re all living longer.
| 247 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:04:14pm |
re: #241 jamesfirecat
You can’t raise them at all in California due to a stupid law saying you need a supermajority to raise them.
I think we just fixed that with an initiative in the last election, right?
| 249 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:05:12pm |
re: #246 researchok
On who? The numbers are astronomical. The higher income earners can’t carry the burden alone.
Then you have the matter of private pension obligations. They will ask the taxpayers to pick up their underfunded pensions.
Lastly, the actuarial tables forecast bigger problems for pensions.
We’re all living longer.
Actually only the desk jockeys are living longer, those of us that do actual physical work die off at pretty much the same age we did 40 years ago.
| 250 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:05:37pm |
| 252 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:06:11pm |
re: #249 mracb
Actually only the desk jockeys are living longer, those of us that do actual physical work die off at pretty much the same age we did 40 years ago.
I don’t know how that breaks down.
I’ll have to look it up.
| 253 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:06:17pm |
re: #246 researchok
On who? The numbers are astronomical. The higher income earners can’t carry the burden alone.
Then you have the matter of private pension obligations. They will ask the taxpayers to pick up their underfunded pensions.
Lastly, the actuarial tables forecast bigger problems for pensions.
We’re all living longer.
Can’t carry the burden alone?
Fine we can start with a 1% increase on the poor, 2% on the middle class and 4% on the rich, and see where that puts us.
Figure out how those break down as seems most fair to you but numbers I can pull right out of my rear say if you make less than $50K you’re poor, if you make more than that but less than a million you’re middle class, if you make more than a million you’re rich.
| 254 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:06:40pm |
re: #246 researchok
On who? The numbers are astronomical. The higher income earners can’t carry the burden alone.
Nobody’s asking them to. But there’s another set of numbers that are astronomical: the rising gap between the ultra-wealthy and the rest of society. It is a huge, huge problem.
It is a much bigger problem than the current budget crisis.
| 255 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:06:53pm |
re: #246 researchok
On who? The numbers are astronomical. The higher income earners can’t carry the burden alone.
Then you have the matter of private pension obligations. They will ask the taxpayers to pick up their underfunded pensions.
Lastly, the actuarial tables forecast bigger problems for pensions.
We’re all living longer.
But virutally no economist, except on the far right, sees the proper mix as 100% spending cuts and 0% tax hikes. Most are more along the lines of a 65/35 split with the larger number being spending cuts. It’s an area where the parties could possibly agree, except the gop now treats tax hikes as an “over my dead body” issue. One more way today’s gop is much different from even a decade ago, when we balanced a budget with the tax/spending combo suggested above.
| 256 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:07:14pm |
re: #252 researchok
I don’t know how that breaks down.
I’ll have to look it up.
I’d try and give you a citation but I’ve had my 4 beers for the night and I’m just too lazy, city worker and all.
| 257 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:07:44pm |
re: #253 jamesfirecat
Can’t carry the burden alone?
Fine we can start with a 1% increase on the poor, 2% on the middle class and 4% on the rich, and see where that puts us.
Figure out how those break down as seems most fair to you but numbers I can pull right out of my rear say if you make less than $50K you’re poor, if you make more than that but less than a million you’re middle class, if you make more than a million you’re rich.
That’s a start, but I’d go with higher numbers, say another point.
The elephant in the room is Social Security.
| 258 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:07:59pm |
re: #204 Dark_Falcon
Nice talking point. But government doesn’t really “create” productive jobs.
Damn right! Government exists to tax, fill positions and provide services - some necessary like armed services, firemen and police - for maintaining civilization, but many unnecessary, which are better left to the people. I’ve got fucking issues with anybody - elected, public, or private telling me how to live my life. Less is more.
| 259 |
jaunte Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:08:34pm |
re: #253 jamesfirecat
Here’s an estimate of what’s needed: $1.7-2.2 trillion (ish)
Combining pensions and retiree health care, state and local governments have promised $4.5 to $5 trillion in future benefits for which they haven’t set aside enough money. By comparison, state and local debts to bondholders come to just $2.8 trillion.
[Link: www.publicsectorinc.org…]
| 260 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:09:01pm |
re: #254 Obdicut
Nobody’s asking them to. But there’s another set of numbers that are astronomical: the rising gap between the ultra-wealthy and the rest of society. It is a huge, huge problem.
It is a much bigger problem than the current budget crisis.
No argument here.
It’s the how we fix it that is the real issue.
| 261 |
Interesting Times Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:09:52pm |
re: #246 researchok
Lastly, the actuarial tables forecast bigger problems for pensions. We’re all living longer.
Doing away with pesky environmental and food protection policies through deregulation can take care of that. OMG! It all makes sense now! TPers are fiscal geniuses!!!11!!1!
| 262 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:10:01pm |
re: #260 researchok
No argument here.
It’s the how we fix it that is the real issue.
Go back to the glory days of the 50s-60s when we hat a 90% top tax bracket.
| 263 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:11:12pm |
Check this CA pension fiasco out……. Brown will put the kabash to this hopefully.
“air time”?
[Link: www.latimes.com…]
| 264 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:11:24pm |
re: #257 researchok
That’s a start, but I’d go with higher numbers, say another point.
The elephant in the room is Social Security.
We can start dealing with social security at the very least by imposing rules on it where if you currently have a steady source of income or are independently wealthy beyond the need for it, then you don’t get it.
Its not much, but its a start that the state isn’t twice over funding John McCain’s retirement….
| 265 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:11:52pm |
re: #258 Kreuzueber Halbmond
How is providing services not creating productive jobs?
Is a well somehow not a good thing to have when the government digs it?
Is scientific research somehow not productive when the government funds it?
Is a doctor somehow not productive when paid by Medicare?
Is a teacher somehow not productive at a state school?
I don’t get this.
| 266 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:12:14pm |
re: #262 mracb
Go back to the glory days of the 50s-60s when we hat a 90% top tax bracket.
I’m kinda embarrassed that I only paid 4.75% in federal income tax last year.
| 267 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:12:18pm |
re: #256 mracb
I’d try and give you a citation but I’ve had my 4 beers for the night and I’m just too lazy, city worker and all.
No worries. I’ll look it up tomorrow.
I did have a quick look and couldn’t find the breakdown.
| 268 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:12:24pm |
re: #260 researchok
No argument here.
It’s the how we fix it that is the real issue.
Bigger taxes on the rich, and a much bigger “death tax”, even if it is only on money that has been in the family for two generations or more, designed to make it clear that you need to invest your earnings not just sit around on them….
| 270 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:13:30pm |
re: #264 jamesfirecat
We can start dealing with social security at the very least by imposing rules on it where if you currently have a steady source of income or are independently wealthy beyond the need for it, then you don’t get it.
Its not much, but its a start that the state isn’t twice over funding John McCain’s retirement…
I agree- a means test is a good idea.
Also, we need to consider raising the age of retirement for those born after a certain date.
| 271 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:13:46pm |
re: #266 mracb
I’m kinda embarrassed that I only paid 4.75% in federal income tax last year.
You paid that much?
| 272 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:14:54pm |
re: #270 researchok
I agree- a means test is a good idea.
Also, we need to consider raising the age of retirement for those born after a certain date.
I disagree on that I think we can raise the cap on paying in, maybe a graduated reduction as the income tiers increase, but keep the same payouts.
| 273 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:15:05pm |
re: #268 jamesfirecat
Bigger taxes on the rich, and a much bigger “death tax”, even if it is only on money that has been in the family for two generations or more, designed to make it clear that you need to invest your earnings not just sit around on them…
I have to consider that. I have mixed feelings about the death tax.
| 274 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:15:10pm |
re: #269 sagehen
GOP reaction to Obama’s budget
[Video]
That’s the GOPs reaction to everything Obama does.
| 275 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:15:16pm |
re: #268 jamesfirecat
The large estate tax was supported by the old megawealthy guys, like Vanderbilt, as a way to encourage the ultrawealthy to actually use their money during their lifetimes. They noted, unhappily, that the second generation of the very rich don’t usually make very good use of that money, and have unfortunate attitudes.
Rockefeller, Carnagie, Vanderbilt all thought it was better for extremely wealthy men to disburse that money than try to keep it for their next generation. They favored large estate taxes.
They were right.
| 277 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:16:40pm |
re: #252 researchok
I don’t know how that breaks down.
I’ll have to look it up.
This studyis from Austria, which has socialized health care, I would expect to differences in the US to be starker.
The study shows clear differences between blue-collar and white-collar workers in terms of life expectancy as a result of strenuous work (Figure 1 below). Whereas blue-collar workers have a probability of 75.7% of reaching the age of 70 years, the same holds true for 84.4% of white-collar workers.
Some more anecdotes from the US auto industry here.
| 278 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:16:43pm |
re: #272 mracb
I disagree on that I think we can raise the cap on paying in, maybe a graduated reduction as the income tiers increase, but keep the same payouts.
I honestly don’t know. The SS debacle is so complex- I’m not sure who to believe when the numbers are bandied about.
| 279 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:16:54pm |
re: #265 Obdicut
Production connotes the manufacture and subsequent sale of something tangible, thus producing capital. A government service has to be funded by money paid in taxes - money received from the sale of a something. This can happen more profitably in the private sector.
| 280 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:17:35pm |
re: #275 Obdicut
The large estate tax was supported by the old megawealthy guys, like Vanderbilt, as a way to encourage the ultrawealthy to actually use their money during their lifetimes. They noted, unhappily, that the second generation of the very rich don’t usually make very good use of that money, and have unfortunate attitudes.
Rockefeller, Carnagie, Vanderbilt all thought it was better for extremely wealthy men to disburse that money than try to keep it for their next generation. They favored large estate taxes.
They were right.
Which is why we have the Rockfeller Center, and Carnegie Hall… I’m trying and failing to think of some important building named after the Koch’s….
| 281 |
sagehen Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:17:39pm |
re: #253 jamesfirecat
Can’t carry the burden alone?
Fine we can start with a 1% increase on the poor, 2% on the middle class and 4% on the rich, and see where that puts us.
Figure out how those break down as seems most fair to you but numbers I can pull right out of my rear say if you make less than $50K you’re poor, if you make more than that but less than a million you’re middle class, if you make more than a million you’re rich.
$60K is about the median family income.
$250K seems a fair line for “rich”… if half of everybody else has to get by on less than 1/4 what you’re pulling in, you’re rich. (You just don’t feel like you are, because most of the people who live in your neighborhood make about the same as you do, and you personally know a bunch of people who either make more than you, or try to make it look as if they do).
| 282 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:18:45pm |
re: #273 researchok
Massachusetts has a national seashore because of the estate tax. We also have several large parks because of it.
Cape Cod exists as a tourist destination solely because of the estate tax.
| 283 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:18:55pm |
re: #278 researchok
I honestly don’t know. The SS debacle is so complex- I’m not sure who to believe when the numbers are bandied about.
Trust me. I don’t get SS, so I have no horse in this race. I have Cal-PERS.
| 284 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:19:04pm |
| 285 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:19:04pm |
re: #279 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Production connotes the manufacture and subsequent sale of something tangible, thus producing capital. A government service has to be funded by money paid in taxes - money received from the sale of a something. This can happen more profitably in the private sector.
Except when the issue is something that the Private Sector can’t/won’t do because there isn’t money to be maid in it.
You know like building bridges, roads, railways, libraries, schools….
| 286 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:19:54pm |
re: #268 jamesfirecat
Bigger taxes on the rich, and a much bigger “death tax”, even if it is only on money that has been in the family for two generations or more, designed to make it clear that you need to invest your earnings not just sit around on them…
I realize that it’s not popular but I agree with Andrew Carnegie (yeah, that one) who felt that we needed a big inheritance tax to force people into giving away their money before they died.
Personally, I’d kick it up to 100% of everything over the first $1,000,000USD (0% to then) though I’m not sure the exact amount is important. . Let a person pass on seed money and family real estate but not enough to create a real aristocracy which is what is happening to America now.
| 287 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:20:37pm |
re: #282 BishopX
Massachusetts has a national seashore because of the estate tax. We also have several large parks because of it.
Cape Cod exists as a tourist destination solely because of the estate tax.
Is the MA estate tax a state tax, and if it is do you know the rate? Also, do you know when and how often it is raised?
| 288 |
goddamnedfrank Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:20:45pm |
re: #260 researchok
No argument here.
It’s the how we fix it that is the real issue.
Rich people aren’t just going to pay their employees more out of a general sense of social justice, so the only possible way of fixing it is to raise taxes on the wealthy, that or have a general strike.
| 289 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:20:58pm |
re: #286 wlewisiii
I realize that it’s not popular but I agree with Andrew Carnegie (yeah, that one) who felt that we needed a big inheritance tax to force people into giving away their money before they died.
Personally, I’d kick it up to 100% of everything over the first $1,000,000USD (0% to then) though I’m not sure the exact amount is important. . Let a person pass on seed money and family real estate but not enough to create a real aristocracy which is what is happening to America now.
Make it 50% after the first billion and you have a much more reasonable argument…
| 290 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:21:40pm |
re: #279 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Production connotes the manufacture and subsequent sale of something tangible, thus producing capital.
You’re using capital to just mean ‘money’. The research done at government labs produces tangible things that can be sold, and produce money.
A government service has to be funded by money paid in taxes - money received from the sale of a something.
Why do you identify the sale as the point where the money is created? Why not the labor, or the pay for the labor? Why is it the sale, for you?
This can happen more profitably in the private sector.
This is just meaningless. It can only happen profitably in the private sector. Did you mean more efficiently?
If so, yes and no. Some sorts of activities are far more efficient in the private sector. Others— like basic science research— will never be done in the wholly private sector.
| 291 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:22:06pm |
re: #289 jamesfirecat
Make it 50% after the first billion and you have a much more reasonable argument…
75% and we’ll call it done!
| 292 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:22:38pm |
re: #291 mracb
75% and we’ll call it done!
75% above a billion on money that has been in the family for more than two generations!
| 293 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:22:43pm |
re: #279 Kreuzueber Halbmond
No. It can’t. The goal of government production is to reduce the costs of production for everyone else. The government to not build roads to raise money, the government builds roads to decrease the costs of transporting goods more profitably.
| 294 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:22:45pm |
re: #289 jamesfirecat
Make it 50% after the first billion and you have a much more reasonable argument…
Probably - that was a throw on the wall number.
| 295 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:23:52pm |
re: #292 jamesfirecat
75% above a billion on money that has been in the family for more than two generations!
OK, I’m easy, I’ll never have to worry about that or even millions.
| 296 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:23:55pm |
re: #286 wlewisiii
I don’t agree with 100%, but it’s not like there aren’t ways to pass along the money while alive, too. That’s the key, to keep the money moving in the economy, changing hands.
Most of our society and taxation is set up to deal with income. It doesn’t deal well with wealth.
| 297 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:24:30pm |
re: #286 wlewisiii
I realize that it’s not popular but I agree with Andrew Carnegie (yeah, that one) who felt that we needed a big inheritance tax to force people into giving away their money before they died.
Personally, I’d kick it up to 100% of everything over the first $1,000,000USD (0% to then) though I’m not sure the exact amount is important. . Let a person pass on seed money and family real estate but not enough to create a real aristocracy which is what is happening to America now.
What if we tied the number to the amount of immediate heirs? A guy with 6 kids is in a different league than a guy with 2 kids.
Also, what if one of those kids needs long term care? If we take away the guys money, the kid might have to be supported by the state- an undesirable option in my opinion.
I like the idea of tax reform, but sometimes I think a VAT, no exceptions is a good idea. The more you buy- and rich buy- the more they pay.
| 298 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:25:21pm |
re: #297 researchok
That’s still too regressive for poor people.
| 299 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:26:43pm |
re: #292 jamesfirecat
75% above a billion on money that has been in the family for more than two generations!
Smart- but on a more serious note, what about the guy who puts millions into art or precious metals and gems, etc.
We have no way of knowing the actual and real net worth.
| 300 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:26:48pm |
Because it’s awesome…
| 301 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:27:26pm |
re: #298 mracb
That’s still too regressive for poor people.
OK, take away the income tax for the lower income.
| 302 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:28:11pm |
re: #300 Floral Giraffe
Because it’s awesome…
[Video]
I thought you went to bed. How can we talk behind your back if you sneak back in?
| 303 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:28:47pm |
re: #297 researchok
I like the idea of tax reform, but sometimes I think a VAT, no exceptions is a good idea. The more you buy- and rich buy- the more they pay.
A VAT is regressive, like any other form of sales tax.
There’s plenty of ways to make exceptions in the estate tax to provide for family homes and the like. And the point is that that monetary transfer can happen before death. You can create a trust to keep your kid in long term care, before you die. That’s what you should do, if you have such a circumstance. That is part of the point of the estate tax, to get the wealthy to keep the money moving, even if it is to their kids.
Hell, I’d be fine with lowering the gift tax and raising the estate tax, to promote that.
| 304 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:29:01pm |
re: #300 Floral Giraffe
You are also obviously a deeply disturbed person.
| 305 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:29:14pm |
re: #287 researchok
Is the MA estate tax a state tax, and if it is do you know the rate? Also, do you know when and how often it is raised?
MA has an estate tax which is linked to the federal one…I don’t know it’s historical rates. The history as I know it is that quite a bit of prime seashore was willed to the state as a means of avoiding estate taxes (both state and federal).
| 306 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:29:43pm |
re: #301 researchok
OK, take away the income tax for the lower income.
It’s still too regressive. The lower income brackets don’t pay a significant amount in income tax. You’d still be taking more money away from them, through VAT. Their incomes would go down.
The poor generally spend 100% of their income. The rich do not.
| 307 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:30:05pm |
It’s after midnight but your reps are still at it. They’re deep into SS now… talking about the funding for offices, upgrading processing systems, etc.
The Dems are mostly filling up time to get their talking points on camera, but the general political tactic is now pretty clear for the Dems.
| 308 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:32:05pm |
Well guys since discussion is more or less wrapping up at this point I’m off for bed, hope Dark feels better in the morning also!
| 309 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:32:39pm |
re: #303 Obdicut
A VAT is regressive, like any other form of sales tax.
There’s plenty of ways to make exceptions in the estate tax to provide for family homes and the like. And the point is that that monetary transfer can happen before death. You can create a trust to keep your kid in long term care, before you die. That’s what you should do, if you have such a circumstance. That is part of the point of the estate tax, to get the wealthy to keep the money moving, even if it is to their kids.
Hell, I’d be fine with lowering the gift tax and raising the estate tax, to promote that.
However with trusts, you avoid many of the taxes altogether- thus the trusts become the vehicle avoid the death tax.
The gift allowance is 14k per year. To be clear, are you advocating that amount be raised?
| 310 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:32:49pm |
re: #285 jamesfirecat, et. al.
Every item you mentioned ultimately has to be paid for from taxes collected from the sale of a product. Money does not flow from government. Money flows to government. Government owning the means of production has been tried, it does not work. Who can disagree that government at some level is necessary? But once governments start spending, where does it end? Donks, elephants - none of them get it.
| 311 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:34:11pm |
re: #308 jamesfirecat
Well guys since discussion is more or less wrapping up at this point I’m off for bed, hope Dark feels better in the morning also!
Goodnight James, dream of sugar plums and higher taxes.
| 312 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:34:41pm |
re: #306 Obdicut
It’s still too regressive. The lower income brackets don’t pay a significant amount in income tax. You’d still be taking more money away from them, through VAT. Their incomes would go down.
The poor generally spend 100% of their income. The rich do not.
See this: Why Not a Negative Income Tax? Replace the welfare state with a cash subsidy for the poor.
| 314 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:36:35pm |
re: #308 jamesfirecat
Well guys since discussion is more or less wrapping up at this point I’m off for bed, hope Dark feels better in the morning also!
Manana.
I’m headed off myself.
| 315 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:37:13pm |
re: #309 researchok
However with trusts, you avoid many of the taxes altogether- thus the trusts become the vehicle avoid the death tax.
The estate tax, please. “Death tax” is something that people came up with to pillory it.
And yes, that’s the whole point. If you can create a trust, for a legitimate purpose, you should be able to avoid the death tax. If you’re creating a trust to care for your sick kid for his life, that’s a legitimate one. If it’s just to keep him in champers and whores, then that’s not going to be an untaxed trust.
The gift allowance is 14k per year. To be clear, are you advocating that amount be raised?
I’m advocating the estate tax be significantly raised, and the gift tax be lowered. I don’t really care about the allowance, so much as the rate.
| 316 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:37:32pm |
re: #312 researchok
See this: Why Not a Negative Income Tax? Replace the welfare state with a cash subsidy for the poor.
re: #312 researchok
See this: Why Not a Negative Income Tax? Replace the welfare state with a cash subsidy for the poor.
That idea keeps coming up every few years or so… I’m not sure it works.
| 317 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:37:33pm |
re: #312 researchok
See this: Why Not a Negative Income Tax? Replace the welfare state with a cash subsidy for the poor.
I have often wished Nixon would have listened to Friedman on that issue.
| 318 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:38:29pm |
re: #315 Obdicut
The estate tax, please. “Death tax” is something that people came up with to pillory it.
And yes, that’s the whole point. If you can create a trust, for a legitimate purpose, you should be able to avoid the death tax. If you’re creating a trust to care for your sick kid for his life, that’s a legitimate one. If it’s just to keep him in champers and whores, then that’s not going to be an untaxed trust.
I’m advocating the estate tax be significantly raised, and the gift tax be lowered. I don’t really care about the allowance, so much as the rate.
Clear.
On that note we can pick this up tomorrow.
These are really substantive conversations.
| 319 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:41:06pm |
At the rate the House is going, and the quite obvious political posturing that is only going to get worse, I’m beginning to worry that the House won’t get a budget passed and agreed with the Senate before March 4.
| 320 |
researchok Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:41:07pm |
| 321 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:41:14pm |
re: #302 mracb
I thought you went to bed. How can we talk behind your back if you sneak back in?
Oh, just have at it. I sneak around, and you can sneak around too.
LOL!
| 322 |
ProBosniaLiberal Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:41:21pm |
re: #310 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Okay, I’ve had just about enough from you about your anti-government diatribes. If you despise the idea of goevernments so much, go to Somalia, the libertarian paradise. Although, looking at your little picture, I think you would act like a nasty piece crap to them. I’ve seen your type before. Overly sanctimonius, parading their faith around, and yet viciously intolerant of those who disagree, and unwilling to do any aid for those in need. Many of the “Charities” you people give to are just organizations are little more the organizations to increase the number of followers, and to deny people civil rights. You know, like the gays.
After living in Colorado Springs, I am quite bitter about how I and others were treated. I will be brutal in criticizing you.
| 323 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:41:22pm |
re: #312 researchok
Yes, I’ve always been a fan of the NIT. I’m not sure how it connects to what we’re talking about, except in being a good tax idea favored by the left and attacked on the right.
| 325 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:42:26pm |
re: #310 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Your weird insistence that money only gets created during the sale of a product still needs to be explained.
| 326 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:43:43pm |
As much as I admire the Democratic reps who are fighting for some good causes, they are in this position due to their own fault.
Remember, the Congress is arguing over the 2011 budget. The fiscal year started 5 months ago, when the Dems were in power in the House. There wouldn’t have to be a continuing resolution if they would have passed and funded a budget before they were voted out of the majority in November.
I hope they remember this lesson.
| 327 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:46:05pm |
| 328 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:48:26pm |
re: #313 mracb
Except, I think we all only leave this world, dead, not alive,except in our loved ones memories.
| 330 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:52:02pm |
re: #310 Kreuzueber Halbmond
It’s a question of community investment. Modern means of production tend to be large, highly specialized and heavily reliant on large scale networks (power, internet, roads, ports etc). You try running a modern factory without roads (and ideally freight rail) to deliver your raw materials and finished products, without external power generation (efficiency of scale), without a global telephone infrastructure so your managers can speak with suppliers and customers. All of these networks cost money, and if run well are generally not very profitable. Infrastructure’s return on investment when measured in GPD growth is very good though. You can generally get $1.20-$1.50 per dollar spent, but because it’s inherently difficult to directly collect revenue from infrastructure projects (especially things like sewage treatment plants were you want people to sign up) it’s simpler for the community to raise the money by other methods. We generally refer to these as taxes.
Let’s take T-shirts as an example of a good. The cotton is produced in the US, where it receives generous support through federally funded agricultural research (we don’t produce more cotton per acre by the grace of god). It’s then harvested on machinery transported on federally funded roads, packed into containers for transport through US administered ports. It is then shipped (protected by the Us Navy) to countries with free trade agreements with US (geopolitical infrastructure) and turned into T-shirts in factories. The T-shirts then make the return journey to a store, where they are lit by electricity regulated by the government, marketed on technologies the US government paid to have developed, and finally sold in exchange for currency (again government controlled).
So when you say the government doesn’t own the means of production…you’re lying by omission.
| 332 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:52:38pm |
I just made a page about it, but the NYTimes has an interesting photo slideshow of the Wisconsin protests at:
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]
| 333 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:53:23pm |
Ok, Good Night for reals, this time.
| 334 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:53:48pm |
re: #322 ProLifeLiberal
You really don’t know me. I’m into the brotherhood of man, and I happen to not like it when someone else tells me how to live my life. Good luck to you in your quest for sanity.
| 335 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:54:17pm |
re: #330 BishopX
It’s a question of community investment. Modern means of production tend to be large, highly specialized and heavily reliant on large scale networks (power, internet, roads, ports etc). You try running a modern factory without roads (and ideally freight rail) to deliver your raw materials and finished products, without external power generation (efficiency of scale), without a global telephone infrastructure so your managers can speak with suppliers and customers. All of these networks cost money, and if run well are generally not very profitable. Infrastructure’s return on investment when measured in GPD growth is very good though. You can generally get $1.20-$1.50 per dollar spent, but because it’s inherently difficult to directly collect revenue from infrastructure projects (especially things like sewage treatment plants were you want people to sign up) it’s simpler for the community to raise the money by other methods. We generally refer to these as taxes.
Let’s take T-shirts as an example of a good. The cotton is produced in the US, where it receives generous support through federally funded agricultural research (we don’t produce more cotton per acre by the grace of god). It’s then harvested on machinery transported on federally funded roads, packed into containers for transport through US administered ports. It is then shipped (protected by the Us Navy) to countries with free trade agreements with US (geopolitical infrastructure) and turned into T-shirts in factories. The T-shirts then make the return journey to a store, where they are lit by electricity regulated by the government, marketed on technologies the US government paid to have developed, and finally sold in exchange for currency (again government controlled).
So when you say the government doesn’t own the means of production…you’re lying by omission.
Reminds me of I Pencil.
| 336 |
JAFO Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:54:19pm |
Hey did you all hear what Floral Giraffe did last week?
| 337 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:54:54pm |
re: #325 Obdicut
OK, it gets created by a printing press. Then the guy running the printing press can pay himself.
| 338 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:55:03pm |
re: #334 Kreuzueber Halbmond
I happen to not like it when someone else tells me how to live my life
So if someone tells you not to rape, murder, steal, pour poison in the water, defraud others, and destroy their property, you don’t like that?
| 339 |
schnapp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:55:35pm |
re: #315 Obdicut
The estate tax, please. “Death tax” is something that people came up with to pillory it.
And yes, that’s the whole point. If you can create a trust, for a legitimate purpose, you should be able to avoid the death tax. If you’re creating a trust to care for your sick kid for his life, that’s a legitimate one. If it’s just to keep him in champers and whores, then that’s not going to be an untaxed trust.
I’m advocating the estate tax be significantly raised, and the gift tax be lowered. I don’t really care about the allowance, so much as the rate.
I used to support the estate tax, but now I don’t. The estate tax punishes saving and investing your money for your children’s future and encourages you to spend it. It taxes living frugally and accumulating wealth.
If people want to get around an estate tax they can easily do it. They can set their children up in a profitable business, or they can pay for them to be lawyers, doctors or some other high-paying professional.
I would much rather encourage people to leave their estates to charitable causes than to tax inheritance.
Greg Mankiw had something good on his blog about this, quoting from two of the greatest economists of the 20th centruy, Larry Summers and Milton Friedman, who each had different views on the estate tax.
[Link: gregmankiw.blogspot.com…]
| 340 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:57:16pm |
re: #337 Kreuzueber Halbmond
OK, it gets created by a printing press. Then the guy running the printing press can pay himself.
No, seriously. For some reason, you’ve decided that when a product is purchased, that is were the creation of wealth occurs.
Why do you not think wealth is created when the product is created?
Isn’t, that, in fact, a much better way to view the creation of wealth?
If you see a baseball bat twenty times, there’s still just one baseball bat.
When you make twenty baseball bats, you now have twenty baseball bats.
The creation of wealth comes with the combination of true capital— the means of production— and labor.
Not the sale of the product.
| 341 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:57:57pm |
re: #339 schnapp
I would prefer that estates not be taxed to death (heh…), but that distributions as such simply be taxed as ordinary income of the recipient.
| 342 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:58:34pm |
re: #335 ggt
Reminds me of I Pencil.
That’s a cool little story. I based my example on The Travels of a T shirt in the Global Economy, which I had a lot of fun reading for no particular reason during my sophomore year of college.
| 343 |
schnapp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:59:16pm |
re: #341 freetoken
yeah i like that. taxing inheritance at the same rate as taxing interest, dividends, capital gains etc. would be a good system IMO
| 344 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:00:08pm |
re: #340 Obdicut
No, seriously. For some reason, you’ve decided that when a product is purchased, that is were the creation of wealth occurs.
Why do you not think wealth is created when the product is created?
Isn’t, that, in fact, a much better way to view the creation of wealth?
If you see a baseball bat twenty times, there’s still just one baseball bat.
When you make twenty baseball bats, you now have twenty baseball bats.
The creation of wealth comes with the combination of true capital— the means of production— and labor.
Not the sale of the product.
I think the confusion comes in the concept of wealth. Traceable $$$ may come from the sale of the baseball bat, but wealth is created every time the bat is swung by a major league baseball player, potential wealth when it is swung by a little league player.
Money is only one symbol for resources.
| 346 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:00:17pm |
re: #339 schnapp
I used to support the estate tax, but now I don’t. The estate tax punishes saving and investing your money for your children’s future and encourages you to spend it.
No, it really doesn’t. You can set up trusts, you can invest your money, and you can give to charities. The exemption for the estate tax has always been large— right now, it’s at five million. You can save and leave your children five million totally untaxed.
If people want to get around an estate tax they can easily do it.
The whole point of an estate tax is for people to ‘get around’ it.
They can set their children up in a profitable business, or they can pay for them to be lawyers, doctors or some other high-paying professional.
Yes! Good! That’s good stuff.
I would much rather encourage people to leave their estates to charitable causes than to tax inheritance.
Do you understand that is the point of the estate tax, as envisioned by Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, and the rest? To encourage people to give to charities?
Apparently not.
| 347 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:00:28pm |
BTW, and no one has raised this so far… but I’m thinking one thing we have to do now is simply to eliminate the tax-free status of institutions.
All institutions (other than government) that are private benefit by the laws that create corporations, and in our legal system corporations become “people”.
Tax ‘em.
| 348 |
ProBosniaLiberal Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:00:42pm |
re: #334 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Oh, I’m quite sane. Bitter, but still sane. However, I also believe in serving my fellow man, and this has how societies have always run. If you don’t want to help others in this society, leave it. Jesus, peace be upon him, would despise your ideals. You are a mockery of his name, and of what Christianity should be.
And this is from a Muslim here.
| 349 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:01:21pm |
re: #342 BishopX
That’s a cool little story. I based my example on The Travels of a T shirt in the Global Economy, which I had a lot of fun reading for no particular reason during my sophomore year of college.
in the Amazon Wish List as my kid took my Kindle out-of-town with him. :)
| 350 |
schnapp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:01:54pm |
re: #340 Obdicut
i agree with you but i think that “output” is a better desrciption in this case than wealth.
| 351 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:02:28pm |
re: #347 freetoken
I’d really prefer taking away corporate personhood, and not taxing corporations. I think taxing personal income is a hell of a lot better than taxing corporate income.
| 352 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:02:29pm |
re: #348 ProLifeLiberal
Oh, I’m quite sane. Bitter, but still sane. However, I also believe in serving my fellow man, and this has how societies have always run. If you don’t want to help others in this society, leave it. Jesus, peace be upon him, would despise your ideals. You are a mockery of his name, and of what Christianity should be.
And this is from a Muslim here.
Amen.
| 353 |
schnapp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:03:23pm |
re: #346 Obdicut
Do you understand that is the point of the estate tax, as envisioned by Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, and the rest? To encourage people to give to charities?
Apparently not.
Why do you sound so aggressive when someone is trying to have a sensible discussion?
| 354 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:03:23pm |
re: #350 schnapp
Why?
The only time wealth is created is when a (useful) product is created.
Why would you rather call that by the relatively meaningless word ‘output’?
| 355 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:04:01pm |
re: #340 Obdicut
Why do you not think wealth is created when the product is created?
I guess because money is the mode of exchange, not the item itself. The product has value, but money has be exchanged for it at some point.
| 356 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:04:15pm |
re: #353 schnapp
Why do you sound so aggressive when someone is trying to have a sensible discussion?
When you beg the question by declaring that the estate tax ‘punishes’, then you can expect me to aggressively rejoinder you.
Don’t do that, and you won’t have to deal with my oh-so-terrible aggressiveness.
| 357 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:04:37pm |
re: #353 schnapp
Why do you sound so aggressive when someone is trying to have a sensible discussion?
Maybe because the US has been talking about this for a hundred years…and you’ve said nothing new.
| 358 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:05:18pm |
re: #355 Kreuzueber Halbmond
I guess because money is the mode of exchange, not the item itself.
Exacty. Money isn’t wealth. It’s a medium of exchange used to purchase wealth— which are the items themselves.
Therefore, the creation of those items is when wealth is created.
| 359 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:05:19pm |
And we’re off!……..
I’m going to watch TV…. nite all.
| 360 |
schnapp Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:05:34pm |
re: #354 Obdicut
was that neccessary? i said i agreed with you. it didn’t need a reply.re: #356 Obdicut
When you beg the question by declaring that the estate tax ‘punishes’, then you can expect me to aggressively rejoinder you.
Don’t do that, and you won’t have to deal with my oh-so-terrible aggressiveness.
of course it punishes. taxes punish.
| 361 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:08:09pm |
I have a problem with Estate Taxes because of the cost of death itself. My Dad died last year. The minimum cost for his “arrangements” was $1800. He donated his body to science and yet the Funeral Directors had to “take care” of his remains (some Cartel!). Their cost was $1800—no negotiations.
With the population living longer and longer, using their assets, they may not have much left to give to their grandchildren.
As it is my Mom has enough to live another few years in relative comfort IF she doesn’t need lots of care. Luckily, they had the funds years ago to set-up a living trust, but many don’t or aren’t able to understand how the trust works. (which, is a legal mind-twist). I’d be nice to think seniors could trust lawyers to devise the trust properly, but even the lawyer my parents used was disbarred and sent to jail for embezzling from his more wealthy clients.
I worry more about the elderly spouse that may be left with improperly managed finances being hosed by estate taxes than I do about any children who may inherit. Yet it is a real kick in the teeth to elderly who have worked their entire lives to see what little they may have left go to the government.
IIRC in most states the estate tax doesn’t kick in until the assets are of a certain level. $3M right now, but that is set to change???? I’ve read so much in the last 4 months, I can’t remember. My accountant has become my good friend.
| 362 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:12:40pm |
re: #360 schnapp
Can you define “punish” ? I don’t think you’re using that term like I use that term. Please don’t just quote a dictionary btw.re: #361 ggt
It’s set to go up to 5M. The estate tax isn’t taxing food away from the starving elderly. It isn’t throwing people out of their homes. The cost of end of life care is typically small compared to the size of the estates taxed. If you’re worth 5 million and you aren’t talking to a lawyer and an accountant about your end of life planning you’re doing it wrong.
| 363 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:13:08pm |
re: #360 schnapp
was that neccessary? i said i agreed with you. it didn’t need a reply
Dude, if you’re going to say that you’d rather a different word, you can expect me to ask why. If you can’t explain, that’s fine, but why on earth are you upset that I asked you to explain?
of course it punishes. taxes punish.
Oh for fuck’s sake.
A) You said that the estate tax punishes “saving and investing your money for your children’s future and encourages you to spend it. It taxes living frugally and accumulating wealth.”
It does not punish saving your money. It does not, especially does not, punish investing your money in your children’s future. It does not tax living frugally, nor does it tax accumulating wealth.
It taxes the transfer of wealth from an estate to an individual. That is all it does.
If you want to invest in your children’s future, there are many ways, as you yourself, pointed out, to do so. Provide them with the best professional training, invest in a business with them. The only thing the estate tax does is tax the amount of wealth that you leave them. Nothing more. The point of the tax is to get you to use that wealth while you are alive. It’s not to punish you providing for your children, but to do so in a way other than leaving them gobs of cash.
And since the exemption starts at five million, you can still leave them huge amounts. The estate tax will affect a tiny percentage of the population, with that rate of exemption.
So for most people the estate tax will have no effect whatsoever.
B) By putting things in moralistic terms, like ‘punish’, you aggravate the argument enormously. You have to warp the English language to make ‘punish’ fit the activity of taxation. Please find a different way of expressing it that doesn’t make a blatant appeal to morality.
| 364 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:13:16pm |
re: #351 Obdicut
I’d really prefer taking away corporate personhood…
Well, I’ve thought about that for many years now, and I tend to agree with you, but it raises some legal challenges.
Public institutions are subject to the oversight of representative bodies at the respective level of government.
But what of private institutions/trusts/corporations? If they aren’t to be treated as “people” how do we deal with them in court? The Judicial system is based upon the idea of a “defendant” who has their day in court. Our society is built around the existential claim of “being.”
Any other self constructed groups are not recognized by our society, unless they break laws (E.g. RICO). You and me can adhoc create a society/group/club, let’s call it “Obdi-Free”, and we have the right of free assembly that guarantees that we can associate with each other. But we can’t really do anything. Obdi-Free can’t own anything (that will be recognized in governance), can’t affect anything other than to stand on a corner and say “we exist!” Obdi-Free can’t enter a court, can’t donate any money to a politician, etc. As a group we can organize our actions, but as a group it can’t be recognized as existing.
If say Exxon can’t have a “personhood”, what is it? How will it work in our legal system?
| 365 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:13:46pm |
re: #362 BishopX
gah! that was supposed to be two posts. I guess it’s time to head to bed. Have a nice night all.
| 367 |
Obdicut Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:15:43pm |
re: #364 freetoken
You’re mistaking me in a big way.
We shouldn’t have corporate personhood, as in, corporations and other organizations shouldn’t have rights modeled on those of individuals.
They should have rights modeled on the fact that they are groups, with the limitations and advantages those confer. E.g., groups can be immortal, and die when they want.
| 368 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:17:47pm |
re: #364 freetoken
Corporations were created in the american legal code as devices for limiting the liability of shareholders. Person-hood is incidental to that, and was not established until several decades after their use became widespread. If you wanted to sue Exxon as a non person, you could sue it’s shareholders as a class.
| 369 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:18:04pm |
re: #362 BishopX
Can you define “punish” ? I don’t think you’re using that term like I use that term. Please don’t just quote a dictionary btw.re: #361 ggt
It’s set to go up to 5M. The estate tax isn’t taxing food away from the starving elderly. It isn’t throwing people out of their homes. The cost of end of life care is typically small compared to the size of the estates taxed. If you’re worth 5 million and you aren’t talking to a lawyer and an accountant about your end of life planning you’re doing it wrong.
Thanks for the update. I knew it was changing. I agree with you.
Now for the cost of “caring for the remains”. Is there any low cost way for the rank ‘n file elderly to take care of this that doesn’t cost a months rent?
I think my Dad originally arranged for his body to be donated to science because in the state he lived at the time, it was free (‘cept for cost of death certificate). In (my part, anyway) of Illinois you have to pay the funeral director to take the body to the Anatomical Gift Association. Dad would have been pissed to the point of spitting if he knew that $1800 of the money he left for Mom was spent.
My parents are fortunate, many are not.
| 371 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:21:59pm |
re: #368 BishopX
Corporations were created in the american legal code as devices for limiting the liability of shareholders.
Yes. Otherwise, each “owner” (stockholder) would be thought personally liable.
If the idea of personhood is removed, then we have to ask if we are going to hold each owner of a “company” to be personally liable for the actions of the company.
E.g., if you and I enter into joint ownership of a piece of property, and someone is injured on that property, both you and I are able to be sued.
If 10,000 stockholders own a company, say, and someone becomes injured on the property of that company, then are all 10,000 owners liable to be sued?
You might say “no”, but then on what ground would the injured have to find justice against whom?
| 372 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:23:36pm |
re: #371 freetoken
I would say “yes” :). All shareholders would be liable in proportion to the number of shares owned.
| 373 |
BishopX Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:23:59pm |
And now, it’ bed time. For real. Have a good night everyone.
| 374 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:24:56pm |
re: #371 freetoken
Yes. Otherwise, each “owner” (stockholder) would be thought personally liable.
If the idea of personhood is removed, then we have to ask if we are going to hold each owner of a “company” to be personally liable for the actions of the company.
E.g., if you and I enter into joint ownership of a piece of property, and someone is injured on that property, both you and I are able to be sued.
If 10,000 stockholders own a company, say, and someone becomes injured on the property of that company, then are all 10,000 owners liable to be sued?
You might say “no”, but then on what ground would the injured have to find justice against whom?
A couple of years ago I tried to read (listen to) the biography of Cornelious Vanderbilt. . Even the biography of his corporate dealings was above my head.
The evolution of the use of the corporate structure is both fascinating and mind-boggling to me.
| 375 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:26:38pm |
re: #374 ggt
Yeah, I find the whole legal/corporate world opaque and unwieldily. I just think that our path is now irreversible, and trying to undo our legal system is probably in vain.
| 376 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:27:30pm |
re: #360 schnapp
was that neccessary? i said i agreed with you. it didn’t need a reply.re: #356 Obdicut
of course it punishes. taxes punish.
Some taxes are designed to punish —vice taxes. Which can be counter-productive (I’m thinking of cigarettes, they’ve been taxed to the point that many people have quit because the cost has become to high).
Taxes to pay for infrastructure and emergency services? I don’t think they punish.
| 377 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:27:44pm |
They are still at it in the House.
It will be interesting to see when they are done and have to start doing roll call votes on the amendments.
| 378 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:30:39pm |
re: #377 freetoken
They are still at it in the House.
It will be interesting to see when they are done and have to start doing roll call votes on the amendments.
May there be roll call votes on every little thing this session. I want to be able to nail down these … people… on what they really stand for.
| 379 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:33:03pm |
re: #375 freetoken
Yeah, I find the whole legal/corporate world opaque and unwieldily. I just think that our path is now irreversible, and trying to undo our legal system is probably in vain.
The one thing I gleaned from the Vanderbilt biography is that his use of the corporation did have public benefit. He was able to make an obscene profit by opening the world to the public. He beat costs so low that the common man could travel on the ferry to the “country” for the day. Something that was very liberating at the time and now we take for granted.
His tactics were horrid, yet it was probably what was needed to get the job done. His competitors weren’t necessarily nice guys either. It was a different world.
I don’t know how we would manufacture and transport food stuffs and other products back and forth across the the globe efficiently with out the corporate structure.
As with any other profit entity, everyone wants their cut- for better or worse: Unions, governments, charities, banks, lawyers …
Somehow it works.
| 380 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:33:43pm |
re: #377 freetoken
They are still at it in the House.
It will be interesting to see when they are done and have to start doing roll call votes on the amendments.
Glad to see they are working… . .
| 381 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:35:52pm |
re: #239 palomino
And people who live in cities overwhelmingly support all of those. I think what we’re seeing is largely a Two Americas, but I don’t mean the one John Edwards talked about. Rural folks and some suburbanites are generally far more anti-government; to them, it’s something they pay for where all the benefits go to urbanites, most of whom are poor and/or minorities.
Misinformation. Rural counties in California get a hell of a lot more than they pay for. The money comes from us urbanites.
And that’s OK, but I also want money to be available for programs and services that are needed in my area without people bitching about it.
| 382 |
freetoken Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:37:57pm |
It looks like the Iowa Family Leader group, and it’s organizer Bob Vander Plaats, have finally succumb to some sense of shame:
he Family Leader scrubs website of link to anti-gay seminars
A link to a seminar series that presents homosexuality and its “second-hand effects” as a public health threat has been removed from the website of The Family Leader.
Julie Summa, director of marketing and public outreach for The Family Leader, said the seminar series has not been offered for around two years. However, up until Tuesday, a link to the seminar’s website was made available to anyone who signed up for e-mail updates on the group’s 99-county “Capturing Momentum Tour.” The Family Leader’s phone number is listed as contact info for anyone interested in booking the seminar.
When asked by The Iowa Independent why, if the series has not been offered for two years, it continues to be advertised on The Family Leader’s website, Summa said it was a mistake.
“The Second Hand Effects link shouldn’t be on our ‘Capturing Momentum Tour’ web page, which was created from an old template,” she said. “We plan to remove it as you are correct, we do not currently offer the seminar and have not had a full seminar in about two years.”
[…]
Note that the group doesn’t admit that the seminar was always wrong and wrong-headed, just that they haven’t offered it for two years, and so the current head, Vander Plaats, isn’t responsible.
But, they also forget to add that the current leader, Vander Plaats, is friends with and was supported in the last election by the former leader of the group!
Vander Plaats is just a wee bit more sophisticated than the previous group head, and knows that his attempts to control the Iowa Caucuses requires that he have a shiny, clean looking face.
| 383 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:39:53pm |
re: #381 SanFranciscoZionist
Misinformation. Rural counties in California get a hell of a lot more than they pay for. The money comes from us urbanites.
And that’s OK, but I also want money to be available for programs and services that are needed in my area without people bitching about it.
When children with their children in tow come thru my line at the retail establishment where I work and USE MY MONEY to be pork rinds and orange crush FOR THEIR KIDS—which they did today—- … . .
I know it’s a lobbyist problem, the UPC’s shouldn’t work with the “food stamp” debit card, but they do.
It’s a cultural problem too. And it’s probably the only area in which entitlements truly are a hot button for me—nutrition.
| 384 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:41:09pm |
re: #379 ggt
His tactics were horrid, yet it was probably what was needed to get the job done. His competitors weren’t necessarily nice guys either. It was a different world.
.
Unintended consequences are some of the most interesting things in history to study. A law or policy or product is designed to do one thing. Sometimes it does and it does something else too. Other times it fails the first thing but then has another effect. We can all think of our favorite examples…
| 385 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:41:57pm |
re: #382 freetoken
“second-hand” effects.
Is it cigarette smoke or pornography?
When will people realize that homosexuality is not synonymous with promiscuity or perversion.
| 386 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:43:31pm |
re: #384 wlewisiii
Unintended consequences are some of the most interesting things in history to study. A law or policy or product is designed to do one thing. Sometimes it does and it does something else too. Other times it fails the first thing but then has another effect. We can all think of our favorite examples…
I know, when I am older I think I’ll try to learn more about the history of the corporation. Even after having my own small s-corp, I am mystified.
| 387 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:46:47pm |
re: #258 Kreuzueber Halbmond
Damn right! Government exists to tax, fill positions and provide services - some necessary like armed services, firemen and police - for maintaining civilization, but many unnecessary, which are better left to the people. I’ve got fucking issues with anybody - elected, public, or private telling me how to live my life. Less is more.
Oh relax. Who’s “telling you how to live your life”? Your freedom hasn’t dropped one iota based on any leadership changes in DC. That’s hysteria rhetoric for ideologues.
| 388 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:48:54pm |
re: #265 Obdicut
How is providing services not creating productive jobs?
Is a well somehow not a good thing to have when the government digs it?
Is scientific research somehow not productive when the government funds it?
Is a doctor somehow not productive when paid by Medicare?
Is a teacher somehow not productive at a state school?
I don’t get this.
There’s nothing to get. It’s simply ideology trumping demonstrable reality. The hatred of govt runs so deeply that they’d gladly throw out all the good if it meant eliminating their least favorite programs.
| 389 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:49:14pm |
re: #387 palomino
Oh relax. Who’s “telling you how to live your life”? Your freedom hasn’t dropped one iota based on any leadership changes in DC. That’s hysteria rhetoric for ideologues.
I understand his frustration. Especially when I hear about congress critters wanting to decide who can get birth control and who can’t.
I try to keep things in perspective. We all have our hot buttons.
| 390 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:53:37pm |
re: #388 palomino
There’s nothing to get. It’s simply ideology trumping demonstrable reality. The hatred of govt runs so deeply that they’d gladly throw out all the good if it meant eliminating their least favorite programs.
I think there is also concern about central control. Which is not always a good thing in a country as vast and diverse as ours. What works in Washington State may not work well in Georgia.
People fear our Federal Government won’t create laws flexible enough to fit all States.
So, we debate and debate and debate some more and then complain that nothing get’s done.
Ahhh, politics in America. without it, what would we talk about?
| 391 |
FemNaziBitch Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:54:44pm |
With that, I am off to bed.
have a great morning!
| 392 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:59:57pm |
re: #381 SanFranciscoZionist
Misinformation. Rural counties in California get a hell of a lot more than they pay for. The money comes from us urbanites.
Which is the ultimate irony. A lot of folks in states like Alaska, for example, may talk the anti-govt talk, but they don’t walk the walk.
| 393 |
palomino Wed, Feb 16, 2011 11:01:12pm |
re: #389 ggt
I understand his frustration. Especially when I hear about congress critters wanting to decide who can get birth control and who can’t.
I try to keep things in perspective. We all have our hot buttons.
He’s approaching from the right, I believe…claiming that Obama has taken his freedoms away.
| 394 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 17, 2011 7:53:01am |
re: #119 mracb
Speaking as a city worker we don’t do as well as you think we do. Most government workers are not even union. The last two years we’ve been working with a 7.5% pay cut and they are probably going to take another 7.5% the next two years. We make a good 20% less than our private sector counterparts. Our retirement is pretty good but that is because we are in a dead end job for the rest of our life and we will never see pay increases aside from COLA, we haven’t had COLA for the last 3 years. The problem with our retirement, at least in CA is the governments haven’t been paying into CAL-PERS for years cause the fund was flush for money and the governments opted out of paying into it. Now they have to pay back what they were supposed to have already paid but they have already spent the money on frivolous projects for their political gain. Excuse me for sounding a little bitter about this. I would never recommend anybody go to work for local government anytime in the near or moderate future.
Dead end job: check.
Below market pay: check.
No raises: check.
I can see why the right thinks you are the problem. You need to make a shitload more money. Then they will look out for you.
/
| 395 |
S'latch Thu, Feb 17, 2011 8:23:04am |
This video is hilarious! I have watched it ten times already! It cracks me up every time! I love it!
| 396 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 17, 2011 10:28:26am |
re: #395 Lawrence Schmerel
This video is hilarious! I have watched it ten times already! It cracks me up every time! I love it!
I actually snorted. I think I’ll watch it again later.
| 397 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 17, 2011 4:53:39pm |
re: #66 Dark_Falcon
Let the bill pass. Government workers should not collectively bargain. I hope the bill passes.
Freedom is a bitch, ain’t it? ;-)
| 398 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 17, 2011 4:58:16pm |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I don’t see a “promise”. I see giveaways by politicians to curry union favor and keep themselves in power. Last November, Wisconsin voters repudiated those bargains, in favor of new policies that will actually solve the problem.
Screw the public sector unions, they’ve looted us enough.
It’s all just so wonderful, isn’t it, the tribalism
| 399 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 17, 2011 5:01:54pm |
re: #334 Kreuzueber Halbmond
You really don’t know me. I’m into the brotherhood of man, and I happen to not like it when someone else tells me how to live my life. Good luck to you in your quest for sanity.
This guy screams troll to me, this line is too funny for this not to be a troll
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