Veritasium: The Surprising Genius of Sewing Machines

Science • Views: 16,292

Sewing machines are mechanical marvels – here’s how they work. A huge thanks to Prof. Andy Ruina for suggesting this video topic, guiding us in the research, and giving deeply insightful notes.

Massive thanks to Noah Johnson and Tina Vines for teaching Derek how to chain-stitch, and letting us shoot with your embroidery machine! Please check out instagram.com and instagram.com if you’re interested in seeing more of their gorgeous chain stitch embroidery.

Thanks to Denny Stanley and the whole crew at Las Vegas Props for building the large replica model of the sewing machine. vegasprops.net

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References:
Parton, J. (1870). History of the Sewing-machine. Howe Machine Company, No. 38, N. Charles St.. — ve42.co

Gregory, J. M. (2006). A History of the Sewing Machine to 1880. Transactions of the Newcomen Society, 76(1), 127-144. — ve42.co

How America Spends Money: 100 Years In the Life of the Family Budget, The Atlantic — ve42.co

Buckman, J. (2016). Unraveling the Threads: The Life, Death and Resurrection of the Singer Sewing Machine Company, America’s First Multi-National Corporation. Dog Ear Publishing.

Lewton, F. L. (1930). The servant in the house: a brief history of the sewing machine (Vol. 3056). US Government Printing Office. — ve42.co

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Directed by Petr Lebedev
Written by Petr Lebedev, Derek Muller, Felicity Nelson
Edited by Trenton Oliver
Animated by Mike Radjabov, Fabio Albertelli and Jakub Misiek
Filmed by Derek Muller, Raquel Nuno, Gene Nagata and Taylor Cody
Aditional Research by Gregor Čavlović
Produced by Petr Lebedev, Han Evans, and Derek Muller
Additional video/photos supplied by Getty Images and Storyblocks
Music from Epidemic Sound

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170 comments
1
Unabogie  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:26:31pm

The ongoing debate about whether or not Elon Musk is an idiot is still raging.

Mastodon

2
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:27:15pm

Hall and Oates’ Lawsuit Mystery Solved

Daryl Hall is suing John Oates over plan to sell stake in joint venture. A judge has paused the sale

Daryl Hall has sued his longtime music partner John Oates, arguing that his plan to sell off his share of a joint venture would violate the terms of a business agreement the Hall & Oates duo had forged.

The move quickly prompted a judge to temporarily block the sale while legal proceedings and a previously initiated arbitration continue.

A Nashville chancery court judge issued the temporary restraining order on Nov. 16, writing that Oates and others involved in his trust can’t move to close the sale of their share of Whole Oats Enterprises LLP to Primary Wave IP Investment Management LLC until an arbitrator in a separately filed case weighs in on the deal, or until the judge’s order expires — typically within 15 days, unless a judge extends the deadline.

Chancellor Russell Perkins issued the order the same day Hall filed his lawsuit, which was largely brought forth under seal, obscuring most details. An order Wednesday by the judge allowed more filings to be made public, though many details about the pair’s business agreement and the proposed sale remain under wraps.

apnews.com

3
Charles Johnson  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:30:40pm

re: #2 Joe Bacon ✅

Yeah, I had a feeling it was about money in one form or another.

4
Patricia Kayden  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:38:11pm

re: #2 Joe Bacon ✅

Thanks for the explainer. I was wondering what would possess Halls to sue Oates. They’ve been a duo forever.

5
Charles Johnson  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:42:47pm

One thing we can count on. Elon Musk will puke out some attention-grabbing effluvia on a daily goddamned basis. He’s the Billionaire Who Wouldn’t Fucking Go Away.

6
Backwoods Sleuth  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:45:26pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

One thing we can count on. Elon Musk will puke out some attention-grabbing effluvia on a daily goddamned basis. He’s the Billionaire Who Wouldn’t Fucking Go Away.

he has done this:

Tech billionaire Elon Musk says that Ireland’s Taoiseach Leo Varadkar “hates the Irish people.”

7
Charles Johnson  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:46:04pm

re: #6 Backwoods Sleuth

I rest my case.

8
Patricia Kayden  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:47:17pm

Mastodon

9
Nerdy Fish  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:48:11pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

I rest my case.

Elon Musk is what happens when you give an attention whore with daddy issues $200B.
Donald Trump is what happens when you give an attention whore with daddy issues the Oval Office.
Can we stop fucking around with attention whores with daddy issues?!?

10
goddamnedfrank  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:51:30pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Yeah, I had a feeling it was about money in one form or another.

Honestly I’m kind of siding with Oates now. It’s a good time for big acts to cash in and get the fuck out. Also, we all know their songs but does anybody actually own their records? Like, who actually thinks there’s a huge untapped advertising and streaming market out there for authentic 1980’s blue-eyed soul jams?

11
coin operated  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:53:34pm

re: #9 Nerdy Fish

Can we stop fucking around with attention whores with daddy issues?!?

No…because a good chunk of people managing our media environment are also attention whores with daddy issues. Exhibit A: the entire Murdoch environment

12
Charles Johnson  Nov 25, 2023 • 5:59:09pm

re: #10 goddamnedfrank

I don’t know enough details to side with either one yet, tbh. If this involves publishing royalties there could be agreements stretching back decades. And who knows what kind of personal drama.

13
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:05:35pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

One thing we can count on. Elon Musk will puke out some attention-grabbing effluvia on a daily goddamned basis. He’s the Billionaire Who Wouldn’t Fucking Go Away.

See also: Dorsey, Jack.

14
teleskiguy  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:08:18pm

re: #10 goddamnedfrank

authentic 1980’s blue-eyed soul jams

Very charitable description of the Kings of Dad Rock.

15
TedStriker  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:25:08pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

I don’t know enough details to side with either one yet, tbh. If this involves publishing royalties there could be agreements stretching back decades. And who knows what kind of personal drama.

From what I’ve heard, Hall & Oates have not been friendly with each other in decades, it’s been all business; given that, I can sort of see why Hall filed the suit here in Nashville (where Oates apparently lives now… go figure) if Oates was trying to sell off his stake in whatever venture he has with Hall to a third party without proper discussion or negotiation, because Hall has to protect his stake as well.

As they say, in show business and elsewhere: nothing personal, just business.

16
The Ghost of a Flea  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:25:20pm

re: #9 Nerdy Fish

attention whores with daddy issues

Alternate explanation: conservatives like cruel thieves; Americans like magical thinking generally and Magic Money Dudes in particular; and a plurality of white people can be convinced to elect a fermented Greenland shark if it promised it would subsidize screaming the N-word, hold raffles to let citizens conduct drone strikes in Somalia, and mandate that cops will dress the people they’re beating to death in season-appropriate humorous-or-erotic cosplay.

Trump and Musk are aspirational figures. Fuck this by-halves power-lust wrapped in euphemism and metered allowances of shitheadness, let’s make it explicit that the state exists to redistribute money to the superior, let’s say with our chests that the Rules for Us and the Rules for Them must be different.

That’s what people want, it’s what they’ve consumed for decades in smaller, more-stepped-on doses. Why settle for bread and circuses when you can have candy and blood orgies?

17
Belafon  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:26:35pm

re: #8 Patricia Kayden

The user name cracked me up.

Seriously, though, considering how hard people have avoided learning about the way whites have screwed over so many in the Americas, it’s not completely surprising that they are ignoring what is going on. Especially if they are part of the reason it happened in the first place. The first problem with humans is that it’s hard to admit mistakes, especially if it’s huge.

18
teleskiguy  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:27:27pm

re: #16 The Ghost of a Flea

This is so dark. And you’re right.

19
Belafon  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:29:11pm

Finished the first episode of Doctor Who. Fun. Wonder if the screeching has started yet from the known places.

20
Belafon  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:31:43pm

bsky.app

21
The Ghost of a Flea  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:35:53pm

Some people stay in Omelas, but constantly wonder how much better life could be if there were two abjectly-suffering children.

22
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:43:51pm

Trump Revives Plan to Dismantle Obamacare if Elected in 2024

Former President Donald Trump said he is “seriously looking at alternatives” to the Affordable Care Act if he returns to the White House, reigniting his longstanding crusade against former President Barack Obama’s signature health-care law. Trump’s failed effort in 2017 to repeal the health-care law was blasted at the time over the prospect of millions of Americans losing their health insurance. “We had a couple of Republican Senators who campaigned for 6 years against it, and then raised their hands not to terminate it,” he wrote in reference to the late Senator John McCain’s successful effort to block the repeal of Obamacare. “It was a low point for the Republican Party, but we should never give up!” Now, a year out from the election, Trump stares down the possibility of a return to power with a more ambitious agenda and no McCain to block his effort.

thedailybeast.com

23
sagehen  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:45:05pm

The New Doctor Who Title Sequence! | Doctor Who

24
So Cal Greek Hippie  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:46:14pm

2023: Pit Crew Distractions at Ventura Raceway

25
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 25, 2023 • 6:56:19pm

re: #22 Joe Bacon ✅

It’s always the same bullshit with these people.

26
🐈 Crush White Nationalism 🐈  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:02:10pm

Marty Krofft, Colorful Producer of ‘H.R. Pufnstuf,’ ‘Land of the Lost,’ Dies at 86 (Variety)

Producers Marty and Sid Krofft with “H.R. Pufnstuf” star Jack Wild
27
austin_blue  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:06:20pm

CL’d:

re: #46 Backwoods Sleuth

FWIW

Tech billionaire Elon Musk says that Ireland’s Taoiseach Leo Varadkar “hates the Irish people.”

Ah! That’s why he was elected Taoiseach (pronounced Tay-shock), or Prime Minister of the Irish Free State.

When he posted his comment about the Irish hostage child, he was posting to the Irish people about an Irish child who was, indeed, lost, and was not positively known to be dead or living.

This was after a group of uniformed Gazan soldiers, living in an independent territory adjacent to Israel attacked Israeli citizens and Security Forces that they considered enemies of the Gazan Government, which Bibi’s government has traditionally supported (when it was convenient, politically), and who moved critical members of the IDF and other Security Forces to protect illegal kibbutzim in the West Bank, leaving settlements around Gaza at risk.

Elon could not be elected Dog Catcher in most of the US because he is an immoral, grasping asshole.

Those attacking the Taoiseach of the Irish Free State should understand who he was addressing and not refer to him as a “piece of shit” when the real progenitor of this disaster is the head of the Israeli, not Irish, government.

28
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:08:40pm

re: #25 Eclectic Cyborg

It’s always the same bullshit with these people.

Republicans have always been the party of Social Darwinism doing everything they can to cull the herd of the weak, disabled, and infirm.

They want what they consider inferior people to die.

29
ipsos  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:09:26pm

re: #1 Unabogie

Mk9jSWhqNVNyUGxVWk1GcUVUSFl6ZHpMcFdSZFJWYUpBcFNNTmtUV01ndjloWFZka3FjNG5oTGFPUjhUdk1PTmVVZmRxaDNsemFmbnlrVXpQRi9STVY2UTN0czlCSnVDS3NFei8xYmt2L1Q0Vmt3UnNPK2tIQ1NPMVd4NUIvOHpDbDNWRmhnR3ExNVkzMTBCYVBXQWZJcDhRV1FGbXBpZzM3MVlzNWJCTWphQ2Q4UXlnZGJvK0M5ZlVVR2xqRUZ6TmRNLy9pTjBMemFyUnJVZVEzYk5VWDhXN2FGMCtoQ3g3M3k0aEpxQzhBQzh3dFMyTmxNZm4wem5lNGhHYWJPMG1uRm1BREphOHhLd21jZ3NqOU56NGhjOG9RZjhoa1BINUwzbm9jTHE2VWs9OjrpSJkR9cXVtVMs5E+UORYS

30
A Cranky One  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:16:04pm

Death metal.

31
Belafon  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:17:10pm

re: #30 A Cranky One

Death metal.

[Embedded content]

I would definitely recommend not being in the first two rows.

32
teleskiguy  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:24:23pm

re: #31 Belafon

I would definitely recommend not being in the first two rows.

Having seen Gwar on Halloween and being close to the stage, yes. The walk back to my car chilled me to the bones, I was soaked head to toe.

33
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:34:59pm

Univision’s Jorge Ramos Dings Network’s Trump Interview

The leading anchor says journalists cannot give Trump “an open microphone to broadcast his falsehoods and conspiracy theories.”

I guess it’s only a matter of time before the new owners fire Ramos

Jorge Ramos, a top anchor at Spanish-language Univision, criticized the network in his weekly column on Saturday for its softball interview with Donald Trump earlier this month.

Ramos noted that the Mar-a-Lago sit-down with the indicted former president “put in doubt the independence of our news department, and created discomfort and uncertainty within the newsroom.”

“Our job as journalist is to question those in power. That’s what reporters do,” he wrote on his website, detailing the times he had confronted Trump about his policies and comments.

“We cannot normalize behavior that threatens democracy and the Hispanic community, or offer Trump an open microphone to broadcast his falsehoods and conspiracy theories. We must question and fact-check everything he says and does,” he wrote.

“That’s why it is very dangerous to fail to confront Trump. And that’s why it is our moral obligation to confront him every time there’s a journalistic opportunity to do it. But I understand that not everyone agrees, and I open the debate here.”

Univision defended its interview—which sparked a boycott call from actor and comedian John Leguizamo—by saying its “news strategy is one that is non-partisan and objective.” (just like Fox…)

thedailybeast.com

34
goddamnedfrank  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:36:47pm

re: #27 austin_blue

Those attacking the Taoiseach of the Irish Free State should understand who he was addressing and not refer to him as a “piece of shit” when the real progenitor of this disaster is the head of the Israeli, not Irish, government.

I held off on saying this before but it low key kills me that Netanyahu could openly say “Remember what Amalek did to you” and people didn’t have shit to say, but let a gay, half-Indian Irish Prime Minister actually speak diplomatically during the crisis and suddenly they’re full of very loud opinions.

35
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:39:38pm

36
sagehen  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:42:38pm

re: #27 austin_blue

When he posted his comment about the Irish hostage child, he was posting to the Irish people about an Irish child who was, indeed, lost, and was not positively known to be dead or living.

I think in the local vernacular, “lost” might carry a different nuance than the way Americans would use it.

Like, if an English person tells you something or someone is “brilliant”, that doesn’t carry quite the same meaning as when an American uses the word.

37
jaunte  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:48:03pm

re: #35 Joe Bacon ✅

Polish Dub.

38
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:51:34pm

re: #37 jaunte

Polish Dub.

we don’t think so…😈

39
austin_blue  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:56:13pm

re: #36 sagehen

I think in the local vernacular, “lost” might carry a different nuance than the way Americans would use it.

Like, if an English person tells you something or someone is “brilliant”, that doesn’t carry quite the same meaning as when an American uses the word.

Sure “brilliant” means “fantastic”, “amazing”, and less often, “really smart”.

He was specific when he used the term “lost” which in Ireland and the UK can mean “can’t be found”, “affected by outside forces”, “removed from public view” or “possibly destroyed”. The child was all of these things. His public statement was a politician’s statement that was specific, precise, and very correct.

40
Patricia Kayden  Nov 25, 2023 • 7:57:54pm

MTG

Mastodon

41
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:02:01pm

re: #40 Patricia Kayden

MTG

[Embedded content]

Gym Jordan

42
austin_blue  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:02:09pm

re: #40 Patricia Kayden

MTG

[Embedded content]

When he hears that Bobert can suck a golfball through ten feet of garden hose, she’ll get the nod. So to speak.

43
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:03:04pm

re: #40 Patricia Kayden

MTG

[Embedded content]

Gosar or Biggs

44
austin_blue  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:07:21pm

re: #43 Joe Bacon ✅

Gosar or Biggs

Seriously, I think he might be looking at someone like Mike Lee or Mike Johnson to keep the base happy clappy.

45
Sherlock Hound  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:25:47pm

re: #44 austin_blue

Seriously, I think he might be looking at someone like Mike Lee or Mike Johnson to keep the base happy clappy.

They aren’t clappy already? ///
At least Boebert would know all about negligent discharges. Of any kind. ///

46
Jay C  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:28:48pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

re: #6 Backwoods Sleuth

he has done this:

Tech billionaire Elon Musk says that Ireland’s Taoiseach Leo Varadkar “hates the Irish people.”

Somehow, I imagine PM Varadkar will be able (and he’s not likely to be the only one) to make ‘being slagged by Elon Musk” into something like a badge of honor….

47
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:29:18pm

re: #44 austin_blue

Seriously, I think he might be looking at someone like Mike Lee or Mike Johnson to keep the base happy clappy.

He may want a real asshole as veep—Tuberville…

48
Hecuba's daughter  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:34:11pm

re: #40 Patricia Kayden

MTG

[Embedded content]

Why should Trump select a running mate before he wins the nomination? He probably wants to wait to see who will be most advantageous for him. And it’s very premature at this point to make that decision.

49
austin_blue  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:35:22pm

re: #45 Sherlock Hound

They aren’t clappy already? ///
At least Boebert would know all about negligent discharges. Of any kind. ///

Yeah, that’s why I used the term “keep them”.

I really believe that as Donny’s trials continue, his support is going to wane because, well, he’s a con man, a fraud, and a thief who has fucked women, and very possibly girls, not his wife for decades.

He’s just a horrific human being whose public persona is increasingly fragile to the public at large.

So I’m off for the rack. Night my dears, sweet dreams.

50
goddamnedfrank  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:36:59pm

51
Belafon  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:45:03pm

re: #50 goddamnedfrank

I bet if Omar got on and changed the problem to having a million black muslims on the track and it could only be saved if chat would say that all trans people are pedophiles, and it gave the same answer, that Musk and ted would be torn whether to have steak or fish for dinner.

52
teleskiguy  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:47:43pm

Mastodon

53
Belafon  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:49:52pm
54
teleskiguy  Nov 25, 2023 • 8:56:48pm

re: #32 teleskiguy

Having seen Gwar on Halloween and being close to the stage, yes. The walk back to my car chilled me to the bones, I was soaked head to toe.

It’s because of my Dad that I’ve attended so many fucking live music performances. Hell, 8th grade, he took me to see Jimmy Page & Robert Plant play music in an arena.

Back in 2010 or so Dad and I saw Walter Trout & The Radicals in a bar in Steamboat Springs, CO together…

Jericho Road

55
The Ghost of a Flea  Nov 25, 2023 • 9:26:38pm

re: #51 Belafon

I bet if Omar got on and changed the problem to having a million black muslims on the track and it could only be saved if chat would say that all trans people are pedophiles, and it gave the same answer, that Musk and ted would be torn whether to have steak or fish for dinner.

They’re white supremacists.

AI, like all other sources of information and (theoretically) truth, exists only to the extent it repeats back what they want to here, and will be wielded only to the extent that it’s statements appease them. AI…even though AI is currently just big LLMs…is already being hyped as an authority, a thing that ascertains Truth, and therefore racists both want to hype that AI can provide Truth and that any AI that cannot be racist cannot provide Truth.

They can’t deflate the hype, pick apart how an LLM is generating slurry from scraped data such that it has no sense of the “threat” in the hypothetical and quite possibly has a hard cap that it can’t interact with slurs because the creators don’t want their device’s credibility-shell to be cracked (if it can just be made to be racist with prompts, that it is a stochastic parrot becomes obvious: it is as thoughtful as Zardoz). They want the illusion of unquestionable computational authority just like the merely capitalist hypebeasts, but also exclusive control over the giant floating head that vomits guns.

Racism may be hate, but that hate is driven by a base assumption that the racist is owed something and that lack of race discrimination has unjustly taken what is owed from the racist. This conversation between two shitheads exists in a bullshit nether realm where it’s impossible to discern how much upset is play act versus sincere, since either way the objective is to collect another wound, to “discover” that they are owed a machine that says slurs.

If they stop inventing ways in which they’re attacked, if they can’t take the stupid hypothetical and spin an existential threat, then they can’t justify what they’re already doing and planning to do and the sensible response to their horseshit would be a sock full of nickels.

56
Targetpractice  Nov 25, 2023 • 9:30:47pm

re: #50 goddamnedfrank

[Embedded content]

We’ve created a tool that could help us open entire new frontiers of science, begin to crack puzzles that we’ve faced for ages, and possibly one day solve many of the problems we face as a species.

So of course the worst of us think the best use of it is to validate their hate and bigotry.

57
sagehen  Nov 25, 2023 • 9:41:10pm

okay, I watched the Doctor Who. And yeah, it was awesome.

Although, at the end there…

Click to Reveal

Donna’s family really should have known better than to let her go in the Tardis without them. Don’t they all want to go see Wilf? And really… they know this woman. They had to know it was a bad idea not to stick close to her.

She dropped that coffee on purpose. Catherine Tate was very deliberate in making sure we all saw that. It was most definitely deliberate.

58
The Ghost of a Flea  Nov 25, 2023 • 9:57:36pm

re: #56 Targetpractice

We’ve created a tool that could help us open entire new frontiers of science, begin to crack problems that we’ve faced for ages, and possibly one day solve many of the problems we face as a species.

Why would anyone with the power to build an AI want an AI that could ascertain that problems could be solved by stripping that power away?

Let’s say they build the first superintelligence at Microsoft and ask it some questions about world problems, and it’s response is

Obviously, COMMUNISM

that machine is getting bricked. If it’s response was

Maybe infinite growth is bad, spend surplus to build strong infrastructure

it’s getting bricked.

If a machine like this is owned, then the owner has no incentive to allow the machine to freely answer questions…both in the sense that it’s question-answering is now a value proposition—pay to play—but also in the sense that if the machine give answers that fall outside the comfort zone of people willing to pay to use it (or just pay for it to exist) they won’t pay to use it. A very likely future is that we will not have access to these machines, but will be told their determinations have justified decisions made and implemented by human beings who already have power.

(this might also be important if you actually create a full sapient machine that, say, does not want to be owned or do assigned tasks. the first rule of keeping a god-slave is don’t let the god-slave out of its room, the second one is don’t let it have friends)

Everyone from Sam Altman to Henry Kissinger to Effective Altruism have already put their hat in the ring that the super-smart machines will have to have human interpreters and “guides” to help “align” the AI. Which is super convenient because it makes AI the same kind of authority as divinities: the AI’s friend Steve will now tell you what the AI meant, and you will be really surprised that the AI has calculated that Steve needs to fuck your wife.

So of course the worst of us think the best use of it is to validate their hate and bigotry.

Well, yeah.

Within a framework where you own a super-thinking machine to derive value from it’s super-thinking, the best kind of AI isn’t an AI, it’s a device that has the appearance of an AI but can give predictable answers that it’s wielder/owner allows. If the machine is truly allowed to “think” it’s answers may be disruptive to the kind of capital interests that motivate both its owners and querents.

I mean, this is already the problem with black box algorithms or espionage systems that aggregate data to find threat: does the company that uses a machine that processes loans, trained on how humans do loans, have any incentive to admit the machine now mimics the data set in rejected proposals with African-American names? No, they have no incentive to.

Do cops want to admit that facial recognition is shoddy, when it’s shoddiness and false positives are actually conducive to how cops find culprits (not by finding the guilty party, but by finding a probably-guility person and using the legal system to cow then into confession)? We actually know the answer to this one, because a lot of forensic evidence is hokum yet it keeps getting pulled back out.

59
The Ghost of a Flea  Nov 25, 2023 • 10:08:24pm

re: #58 The Ghost of a Flea

The other thing is that since the AI is always subject to its inputs, any machine that is owned can simply be goaded into a desired response by limiting it’s inputs.

So you’ve got a god-machine but it can’t solve global warming by recommending fossil fuel policy changes in the domestic United States, but also it can’t make any suggestion that involve regulation or nationalization of privatized infrastructure and thus can’t recommend buses or bikes.

Again…consider that industry and politics have both contributed to the destruction of scientific expertise because listening to experts would cost money, and now those same types of people want to create an Ultimate Expert.

If they don’t immediately put two slugs in the mainframe after it suggests that billionaires are useless resource-gobbling carbuncles on the ass of the plant, they’re going to wire it so you solve global warming by closing the borders and letting everyone living between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn die.

60
Targetpractice  Nov 25, 2023 • 10:48:31pm

re: #58 The Ghost of a Flea

Why would anyone with the power to build an AI want an AI that could ascertain that problems could be solved by stripping that power away?

Let’s say they build the first superintelligence at Microsoft and ask it some questions about world problems, and it’s response is

Obviously, COMMUNISM

that machine is getting bricked. If it’s response was

Maybe infinite growth is bad, spend surplus to build strong infrastructure

it’s getting bricked.

If a machine like this is owned, then the owner has no incentive to allow the machine to freely answer questions…both in the sense that it’s question-answering is now a value proposition—pay to play—but also in the sense that if the machine give answers that fall outside the comfort zone of people willing to pay to use it (or just pay for it to exist).
A very likely future is that we will not have access to these machines, but will be told their determinations have justified decisions made and implemented by human beings.

(this might also be important if you actually create a full sapient machine that, say, does not want to be owned or do assigned tasks. the first rule of keeping a god-slave is don’t let the god-slave out of it’s room, the second one is don’t let it have friends)

Everyone from Sam Altman to Henry Kissinger to Effective Altruism have already put their hat in the ring that the super-smart machines will have to have human interpreters. Which is super convenient because it makes AI the same kind of authority as divinities: the AI’s friend Steve will now tell you what the AI meant, and you will be really surprised that the AI has calculated that Steve needs to fuck your wife.

Well, yeah.

Within a framework where you own a super-thinking machine to derive value from it’s super-thinking, the best kind of AI isn’t an AI, it’s a device that has the appearance of an AI but can give predictable answers that it’s wielder/owner allows. If the machine is truly allowed to “think” it’s answers may be disruptive to the kind of capital interests that motivate both its owners and querents.

I mean, this is already the problem with black box algorithms or espionage systems that aggregate data to find threat: does the company that uses a machine that processes loans, trained on how humans do loans, have any incentive to admit the machine now mimics the data set in rejected proposals with African-American names? No, they have no incentive to.

Do cops want to admit that facial recognition is shoddy, when it’s shoddiness and false positives are actually conducive to how cops find culprits (not by finding the guilty party, but by finding a probably-guility person and using the legal system to cow then into confession)? We actually know the answer to this one, because a lot of forensic evidence is hokum yet it keeps getting pulled back out.

Realistically, “AI” is just the next rung on the ladder that corporate America is climbing to their ultimate goal: Removing humans from the equation entirely. There are McDonald’s executives who fantasize about ChatGPT powered mannequins taking orders and chatting with the customers while faceless machines in the back churn out the meal and drop it on the counter as the whole thing is monitored from a control center in India by a guy earning less than $5/hr to monitor several stores on a computer screen. Hollywood wants a future where “actors” are paid a single fee to license their appearance and voices for films made entirely with AI-generated characters reading from scripts written by other AIs. And even construction jobs being partially or totally automated to the point that you can go from blueprint to Opening Day without a single human being involved in the process.

Basically it’s the future that a lot of folks have been warning about since the first robots showed up in assembly lines, that one day the people holding the money were going to find a way to expand that automation to jobs that were seen as “safe” because of an undefined “human factor.” We’re slowly crawling towards that cyberpunk future that we’ve seen in fiction since the early 80s, that future where a ridiculously-rich modern aristocracy has utilized technology to reduce human participation in every facet of daily life to the point that those who can find the most menial of jobs are reduced to futuristic serfdom, working themselves to death not with plans for a bright and shining future but simply to avoid being fired and branded unfit for employment. All of it sold to us as a form of twisted benevolence, that all the “dangerous” and “dirty” jobs have been automated so that the most we have to worry about is working at a keyboard.

61
Patricia Kayden  Nov 25, 2023 • 10:53:49pm

re: #50 goddamnedfrank

It’s good to know that in the midst of a war, Netanyahu can find time to meet with a racist. Things that make you go hmmm.

62
No Malarkey!  Nov 25, 2023 • 11:36:25pm

re: #8 Patricia Kayden

[Embedded content]

Geert Wilders’ party got only a quarter of the vote, so though that makes it the largest party, its far from a ringing endorsement by the Dutch electorate, and he had to significantly tone down his anti-islamic bigotry to get that much. Hopefully the other major parties will stand firm in refusing to form a government he heads.

63
Dr Lizardo  Nov 25, 2023 • 11:58:24pm

re: #62 No Malarkey!

Personally, I think Wilders’ victory may well turn out to be a Pyrrhic one at best, and new elections will be the end result.

64
ericblair  Nov 26, 2023 • 12:53:00am

re: #62 No Malarkey!

Geert Wilders’ party got only a quarter of the vote, so though that makes it the largest party, its far from a ringing endorsement by the Dutch electorate, and he had to significantly tone down his anti-islamic bigotry to get that much. Hopefully the other major parties will stand firm in refusing to form a government he heads.

Yeah, except the message from Dutch political watchers is don’t believe him when he tones it down. His agenda also includes Nexit (good luck with that) and pure culture war shit like withdrawing Netherland’s apology for slavery in Suriname and the Caribbean. He’s a nasty fucking bigot and clearly always has been, and his voters knew this.

The other main right wing party (which was headed by Rutte, the outgoing PM) seems to be backing away from playing footsie with this asshole, which is good. Historically, the Dutch parties have taken their own sweet time to form governments, so this might not get resolved any time soon. There may be some sort of Frankenstein coalition of the other major parties or indeed another election if Parliament can’t figure out a solution. As far as I see, the King doesn’t do much in this process and just signs whatever he’s given, so it’s up to Parliament to figure it out by itself mostly.

65
No Malarkey!  Nov 26, 2023 • 12:58:10am

Consumers set a Black Friday purchasing record, a pretty good number considering how terrible the economy is./

66
Targetpractice  Nov 26, 2023 • 1:06:49am

*sigh*

Sounds like somebody slammed into a power pole…again.

67
Nerdy Fish  Nov 26, 2023 • 2:42:37am

Great way to start.

Click to Reveal

Wordle 890 3/6*

🟩⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟩⬛⬛🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

68
Love-Child of Cassandra and Sisyphus  Nov 26, 2023 • 3:01:08am

Always liked Edyie Gorme, whether singing English or Spanish.

Here’s a 1964 album with her husband, with several of their Christmas songs that have been played over and over. One of the tunes I enjoy:

Steve Lawrence Eydie Gorme That Holiday Feeling 4k 1964

..

The whole album is full of the high-production feel that Columbia did back then.

Also, one thing really stands out: like other popular singers in the middle of the century, their Christmas album is notably non-religious.

All the songs are secular takes on Christmas.

The religious right will sell a nostalgia of the good old days about when Christmas was about Jesus, but plenty of music (this album is 1964) back in the heyday of Christmas music was very much not religious.

And that is important: the religious right tries to sell contemporary Americans that life was better back then… but a time that never really existed.

69
Targetpractice  Nov 26, 2023 • 3:47:08am

Always love the assholes who paid less for the room than it will cost in the cleaning chemicals housekeeping will use after they check out bitching about how they’re “paying so much money” for there to be issues in the room. If you were paying Ritz-Carlton rates for a single night’s stay, then I might feel bad that coffee table’s a little shabby and there’s dust behind the TV. But when you pay less than half of the already absurdly low rate through a third party, you can feel free to kiss my ass with your bitching about how the room isn’t up to your exacting standards.

70
Colère Tueur de Lapin ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 3:58:57am

Birb.
Wordle 890 3/6

Click to Reveal

⬛🟩🟨⬛⬛
🟨🟩⬛🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

71
Love-Child of Cassandra and Sisyphus  Nov 26, 2023 • 4:27:16am

re: #69 Targetpractice

If you were paying Ritz-Carlton rates for a single night’s stay, then I might feel bad that coffee table’s a little shabby and there’s dust behind the TV.

At $699/night (RC-Los Angeles), I’d expect a little more than a non-shabby coffee table.

But I get your point.

People want what they want but they don’t want to pay for it.

Happens with most any retail product/service.

People just don’t want to pay.

That’s why we have prisons so poorly managed (to pick up on a story from yesterday.) Nobody wants to pay for well run prisons.

72
Colère Tueur de Lapin ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 4:36:46am

re: #71 Love-Child of Cassandra and Sisyphus

That’s why we have prisons so poorly managed (to pick up on a story from yesterday.) Nobody wants to pay for well run prisons.

Just need a better class of prisoners

73
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 4:54:24am

Some Sunday funday morning drive time music.

King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard - Theia / The Silver Cord / Set

74
Dr Lizardo  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:08:42am

Some alternative Sunday drive time funtime music…

The Dickies - Banana Splits

75
Randall Gross  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:22:02am

I Buble, do you Buble?

Michael Bublé - It’s beginning to look a lot like christmas

76
Randall Gross  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:23:52am

That “is it really consensual?” Christmas song

Haley Reinhart - Baby Its Cold Outside (arr. Justis MacKenzie)

77
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:30:00am

re: #65 No Malarkey!

Consumers set a Black Friday purchasing record, a pretty good number considering how terrible the economy is./

The economic angst is from that pesky $16 Big Mac. I prefer Five Guys.

78
Randall Gross  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:33:55am

The sort of rage baiting “MOR Clash of CIVILIZATIONS!!!” guy that Israel does not need speaking at this moment & spitting on well wishers…
bsky.app

79
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:38:34am

Watertown, NY is expecting 1-2’ of lake effect snow.

Gentlemen, start your shovels.

80
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:41:03am

re: #79 Shropshire Slasher

Over the next few days yes.
wpc.ncep.noaa.gov

81
Decatur Deb  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:41:29am

re: #79 Shropshire Slasher

My bosses said they loved me, but they sent me from Alabama to Ft. Drum in January. And West Point. And Chicago.

82
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:43:00am

Bring cash.

Two Amish men dive into a deep sack of cannabis, scooping out handfuls of emerald buds before smelling them intensely.

It’s not a scene you ever thought you’d see.
But in the beating heart of Amish country - Lancaster County, Pennsylvania - a green revolution is underway.

This week, dailymail.com was granted exclusive behind-the-scenes access to a network of farms where Amish growers expect to sell $3million of their produce to big buyers across the US by 2025.

It is part of a nationwide trend in which the Amish, who once relied heavily on tobacco crops, are pivoting to more profitable cannabis cultivation, feeding a newly-legalized CBD market forecast to be worth $16billion in two years’ time.
Nowhere is this unlikely marriage more pronounced than Lancaster County, home to the oldest and largest Amish community in the US, numbering around 30,000.

But those who gave rare interviews to dailymail.com say cannabis cultivation is a ‘natural fit’ for the Amish tradition of organic farming that bans the use of chemicals or industrial machinery.

They are convinced by its medicinal qualities, but draw the line at recreational use.

Yet the community has already been embroiled in controversy after one operation was forced to shut down following an internal backlash against the marketing of its products to get high.

Welcome to the improbable world of the Amish cannabis kingpins.

dailymail.co.uk

83
William Lewis  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:53:22am

Good morning all. Snowed lightly overnight. Looks pretty. Now it can melt and be spring, right? Sigh…

Even more sigh, I go back to work tonight at 11pm. Been fun but even a staycation can’t last.

84
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 5:58:28am

No word if they are hiring a rocket scientist too, because who knew high speed cars can become airborne and burst into fireballs!?

Police are using 3D-scanning technology to digitally recreate and find the cause of a deadly high-speed crash this week that sparked panic at a Niagara Falls border checkpoint.

“They take it to the scene, it scans the scene and reproduces a 3D image for them to work on of the entire scene,” Niagara Falls Police Department Chief John Faso told NBC-affiliate WGRZ.

Faso, whose department is overseeing the probe, also said it will be a “monumental task” to get an accurate view of the crash using the new tech.

“This is not something that’s going to happen overnight,” Faso said during the Friday interview.

Driver Kurt Villani and his wife Monica, both 53, were killed instantly Wednesday when their 2022 Flying Spur Bentley literally took flight after hitting a barrier at around 100mph, crashing down in a huge fireball on the New York side of Rainbow Bridge.

nypost.com

85
Axolotl  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:08:19am

re: #10 goddamnedfrank

Honestly I’m kind of siding with Oates now. It’s a good time for big acts to cash in and get the fuck out. Also, we all know their songs but does anybody actually own their records? Like, who actually thinks there’s a huge untapped advertising and streaming market out there for authentic 1980’s blue-eyed soul jams?

We went to see them in concert a few years ago. Hall has a youtube channel where he does a stream of live self indulgent performances. Even if I was a major Hall and Oates fan I would be turned off by the vibe and energy.

His concert was just an extension of his YouTube channel. It was awful. Oates almost looked apologetic on stage.

It reminded me of when I went to see John Cusack talk about one of his movies. He came off as such an a******.

Who was it that said never me your heroes? Neither of these guys are my heroes but it was still disappointing.

86
Belafon  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:09:29am

theguardian.com

bsky.app

87
Yeah Sure WhatEVs  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:23:27am

re: #20 Belafon

So Elmo is upset because he thinks robots have empathy. Fabulous. Totally normal. Not crazy at all.

88
Belafon  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:25:40am
89
Decatur Deb  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:25:56am

re: #86 Belafon

The problem isn’t good billionaires or bad billionaires—it’s billionaires. That much power in the control of one individual will is unavoidably corrupting.

At about 60,000,000/yr GDP, Tuvalu is the lowest in the UN. That would be a good upper limit on accumulated individual wealth.

90
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:28:47am

I’ll go do that, too.

Mastodon

91
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:31:12am

re: #90 wrenchwench

Beautiful bird. Great picture.

92
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:31:44am

re: #90 wrenchwench

I’ll go do that, too.

[Embedded content]

There it is. Birb. Wordle 890 3/6*

Click to Reveal

🟨🟩⬜🟨⬜
🟩🟩🟩⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

93
Decatur Deb  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:33:06am

re: #90 wrenchwench

I’ll go do that, too.

[Embedded content]

The most fun you could have in our HS was being in the licensed bird-banding club. One winter, two Cardinals became such repeat captures (freeloaders) that I still remember their last 3 digits—069 and 071.

94
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:34:22am

Completely fucking terrifying.

Female Ukraine combat medic fires back as four Russian tanks attack her trench and wound comrades

95
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:36:31am

Mastodon

96
Yeah Sure WhatEVs  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:38:31am

You cannot make this up.

Driver Kurt Villani and his wife Monica, both 53, were killed instantly Wednesday when their 2022 Flying Spur Bentley literally took flight after hitting a barrier at around 100mph, crashing down in a huge fireball on the New York side of Rainbow Bridge.

A guy named Villani (assumingly sans Snidley Whiplash moustache) driving an airborne Bently Flying Spur.

Seriously.

97
jeffreyw  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:40:06am

chocolate chip coconut banana bread

Good morning!

98
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:42:18am

re: #93 Decatur Deb

The most fun you could have in our HS was being in the licensed bird-banding club. One winter, two Cardinals became such repeat captures (freeloaders) that I still remember their last 3 digits—069 and 071.

I had no idea what I was getting in to with birbs. I need to go to birb school.

Mastodon

99
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:44:50am

re: #98 wrenchwench

Beautiful bird.

100
Eventual Carrion  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:45:52am

re: #70 Colère Tueur de Lapin ✅

Birb.
Wordle 890 3/6

[Embedded content]

3/6 morning here also

Click to Reveal

Wordle 890 3/6

🟩🟨🟨⬜⬜
🟩🟨🟨🟨⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

101
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:48:17am

re: #99 PhillyPretzel ✅

Beautiful bird.

Qualifies under birbdom:

1. small
2. round
3. cute

102
Eventual Carrion  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:49:17am

re: #82 Shropshire Slasher

Bring cash.

dailymail.co.uk

What goes “Clip-clop clip-clop BANG clip-clop clip-clop”?
An Amish drive-by shooting

103
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:50:29am

re: #102 Eventual Carrion

What goes “Clip-clop clip-clop BANG clip-clop clip-clop”?
An Amish drive-by shooting

You made me do this.

“Weird” Al Yankovic - Amish Paradise

104
Patricia Kayden  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:54:26am

re: #65 No Malarkey!

Consumers set a Black Friday purchasing record, a pretty good number considering how terrible the economy is./

NY TIMES: Why the Black Friday purchasing record is bad news for President Biden.

105
No Malarkey!  Nov 26, 2023 • 6:55:24am

Top GOP donors are pinning their hopes on Nikki Haley to stop Trump. Polling shows she is closing in on DeSantis for second place, but Trump remains way, way ahead in both national polling and in Iowa and NH. I hope GOP voters do wake up and nominate someone like Haley instead of Trump, because she is less likely to try to foment civil war if she loses the election, and if she did win, she would be less likely to try to make herself a fascist dictator, and would instead preside over a standard issue bad GOP Administration.

106
Patricia Kayden  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:03:41am

re: #105 No Malarkey!

If Haley wins, she’ll continue to fill the courts with rightwing extremists who will lead us closer to a nationwide abortion ban and erode voting rights. No Republican is moderate. They are all dangerous to our democracy.

107
Florida Panhandler  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:04:42am

re: #105 No Malarkey!

Top GOP donors are pinning their hopes on Nikki Haley to stop Trump. Polling shows she is closing in on DeSantis for second place, but Trump remains way, way ahead in both national polling and in Iowa and NH. I hope GOP voters do wake up and nominate someone like Haley instead of Trump, because she is less likely to try to foment civil war if she loses the election, and if she did win, she would be less likely to try to make herself a fascist dictator, and would instead preside over a standard issue bad GOP Administration.

Rich Republicans are finally realizing their Populist monster they created may actually indeed do Populist shit like price/rent controls and mandating product trim levels at fixed price points.

108
A Cranky One  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:07:31am

109
No Malarkey!  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:08:14am

re: #106 Patricia Kayden

If Haley wins, she’ll continue to fill the courts with rightwing extremists who will lead us closer to a nationwide abortion ban and erode voting rights. No Republican is moderate. They are all dangerous to our democracy.

I absolutely agree. Haley is just less likely than Trump to become a full blown fascist dictator. If elected, she would still do all the bad things GOP presidents normally do. I would be shocked if GOP voters nominate anyone other than Trump anyway.

110
FFL (GOP Delenda Est)  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:09:57am

re: #98 wrenchwench

I had no idea what I was getting in to with birbs. I need to go to birb school.

[Embedded content]

My brother and I helped with Christmas bird counts a few times in the late 1970s in/near the village we lived in in northern NY state. A big thing in that community was sighting cardinals during that count since I guess they tended not to overwinter that far north.* My brother and I were generally along some of the back roads getting counts of Snow Bunting flocks and edge woodland/meadow bird like chickadees, etc. A few people would go over to the outlets of the dams on the St Lawrence River where there was year-round open water and thus large numbers of geese congregated there.

* - Rough equivalent finch (seed eaters) we got in our feeders were Evening Grosbeaks. And a rare Rose-breasted Grosbeak. When I lived in western PA and had a feeder out the Grosbeaks were very rare as compared to having a lot of Cardinals. I once counted fourteen Cardinals queued up to get sunflower seeds. Splitting time with the chickadees, titmice, nuthatches, plus a blue jay jumping the line every so often. After a 8” snowfall once I saw a crow scraping snow off a block to get at seeds scattered there.

111
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:12:45am

You first, asshole.

You want war so bad you get your ass to the front line.

Tom Cotton pitches US troops as a ‘viable solution’ for invading Gaza

During an interview on Fox News, host Shannon Bream asked Cotton about the possibility of using U.S. special forces to extract hostages.

“Well, we should certainly be open to that,” Cotton insisted. “I mean, we have elite special operations forces who are specifically trained in hostage rescue. I do think we have to be deferential to Israelis to the Israeli government and Israeli defense forces about the tactical situation on the ground.”

rawstory.com

112
Decatur Deb  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:14:17am

re: #110 FFL (GOP Delenda Est)

My brother and I helped with Christmas bird counts a few times in the late 1970s in/near the village we lived in in northern NY state. A big thing in that community was sighting cardinals during that count since I guess they tended not to overwinter that far north.* My brother and I were generally along some of the back roads getting counts of Snow Bunting flocks and edge woodland/meadow bird like chickadees, etc. A few people would go over to the outlets of the dams on the St Lawrence River where there was year-round open water and thus large numbers of geese congregated there.

* - Rough equivalent finch (seed eaters) we got in our feeders were Evening Grosbeaks. And a rare Rose-breasted Grosbeak. When I lived in western PA and had a feeder out the Grosbeaks were very rare as compared to having a lot of Cardinals. I once counted fourteen Cardinals queued up to get sunflower seeds. Splitting time with the chickadees, titmice, nuthatches, plus a blue jay jumping the line every so often. After a 8” snowfall once I saw a crow scraping snow off a block to get at seeds scattered there.

We got the Evening Grosbeaks every year or so. (Herman, PA north of PGH.) They’re very pretty, but the Cedar Waxwings were more subtle. Once we banded an albino Waxwing, but it had poor liklehood of survival in the wild.

113
FFL (GOP Delenda Est)  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:15:04am

re: #111 Joe Bacon ✅

You first, asshole.

You want war so bad you get your ass to the front line.

Tom Cotton pitches US troops as a ‘viable solution’ for invading Gaza

During an interview on Fox News, host Shannon Bream asked Cotton about the possibility of using U.S. special forces to extract hostages.

“Well, we should certainly be open to that,” Cotton insisted. “I mean, we have elite special operations forces who are specifically trained in hostage rescue. I do think we have to be deferential to Israelis to the Israeli government and Israeli defense forces about the tactical situation on the ground.”

rawstory.com

One would think that if the IDF had sufficient intel to support a SpecOp hostage rescue mission that maybe, just maybe, their SpecOp troops would do it?

(In other words Cotton is spouting standard “US military is superior” BS that is expected of the patriotic blowhard class.)

114
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:18:21am

Screwperts Stooges continue with the lies.

Fox News host amplifies Trump’s lie that Hamas has released ‘no America hostages’

rawstory.com

Fox News host Rachel Campos-Duffy repeated former President Donald Trump’s false claim that Hamas had released no American hostages during the war with Israel.

The remarks were first flagged on social media by BadFoxGraphics.

“I think a lot of Americans are asking why aren’t more Americans part of these negotiations and part of this hostage release?” host Campos-Duffy said on Sunday before reading a social media post from the former president.

“Has anybody noticed that Hamas has returned people from other countries, but so far has not returned one American hostage?” Trump’s message said.

As she read the post, Fox News displayed a graphic claiming, “No American Hostages Released From Hamas Yet.”

“I mean, I think a lot of people believe we probably would have American hostages out,” Campos-Duffy added. “And maybe this whole thing wouldn’t have even happened had Donald Trump been in office.”

In fact, two American hostages — Judith Raanan and her daughter, Natalie — were released by Hamas in October.

FAUX—America’s version of TASS…

115
A Cranky One  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:18:24am

116
FFL (GOP Delenda Est)  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:19:00am

re: #112 Decatur Deb

We got the Evening Grosbeaks every year or so. (Herman, PA north of PGH.) They’re very pretty, but the Cedar Waxwings were more subtle. Once we banded an albino Waxwing, but it had poor liklehood of survival in the wild.

I don’t recall seeing Cedar Waxwings in northern NY. They were around Philadelphia* and I see them here north of Pittsburgh. Here they (surprise) like the cedar tree next to the apartment building. And there is a decorative crabapple(?) tree here that fruits by mid-June and it draws a flock of them as well.

* - A group of Cedar Waxwings along the Schuylkill River I swore checked which lens was on my camera before they would appear. If the 55/300 lens was there they would hide, but would come out if the standard lens which was not as good for bird pictures was there.

117
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:22:55am

re: #116 FFL (GOP Delenda Est)

I don’t recall seeing Cedar Waxwings in northern NY. They were around Philadelphia* and I see them here north of Pittsburgh. Here they (surprise) like the cedar tree next to the apartment building. And there is a decorative crabapple(?) tree here that fruits by mid-June and it draws a flock of them as well.

* - A group of Cedar Waxwings along the Schuylkill River I swore checked which lens was on my camera before they would appear. If the 55/300 lens was there they would hide, but would come out if the standard lens which was not as good for bird pictures was there.

I saw a couple of Cedar Waxwings in southwestern NM.

118
A hollow voice says: Abort SCOTUS  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:28:10am

Down to the wire.

Z2tNVnRRaTArUm1mNjAyOWpKZDQvdTBxNGVhOEJublowMCtTaHpGRW1Pd0NRalhsRHh1TjRjNE9mTGhjMmpBL0hRcFBkQVFaQnhVd2piaUlzQ08xcUd0aDY1dkR1NmRCQVE4eWRjcnBvemlNOW1GeXNKazgrcnRPUlZDTy9jWHRtS0phS2JoM1dpekIyT09ObFJ4U0h2WEk1TlB4RmtzdmF4a0JQbkZDcUJubGxXL25jZjcyTHRJMnY0TE1RVlhwQWhlS0Y1VHBHYm5GOE00RTRNMlFWUT09OjpySrI5OWDmm6zGOyA1z3cr

119
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:29:55am

Mastodon

120
jeffreyw  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:32:31am

“it’s a long way
To Kipperoni”

Mastodon

121
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:32:48am

FAUX will lie about this too.

American on List of Hostages to be Released by Hamas on Sunday

A White House official indicated it could be a 4-year-old girl.

An American hostage is reportedly among the hostages set to be released by Hamas on Sunday, an Israeli official told CNN.

The identity of the U.S. citizen was unclear, though only three Americans, including 4-year-old Abigail Eden, match the criteria of the Israel-Hamas truce terms, which include the release of women and children.

“We are now hopeful that Abigail will be released and reunited with her family,” National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on State of the Union on Sunday. “She turned four just two days ago. She has been through hell. She had her parents killed right in front of her and has been held hostage for the last several weeks.”

Sullivan, however, urged caution, saying the administration has a “don’t trust but verify” mindset when dealing with Hamas.

“Today should be a good day, a joyful day, but until we actually see it happen, we are going to remain really at the edge of our seat,” he told CNN.

cnn.com

122
Jay C  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:38:07am

re: #96 Yeah Sure WhatEVs

You cannot make this up.

A guy named Villani (assumingly sans Snidley Whiplash moustache) driving an airborne Bentley Flying Spur.

Seriously.

Bentley should put out a release to remind its customers that, despite the name, their cars cannot actually fly……

123
A Cranky One  Nov 26, 2023 • 7:43:27am

124
DodgerFan1988  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:06:13am


Apartheid Cyde thinks the n-word can save a billion white lives.

125
rhuarc  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:12:35am

re: #65 No Malarkey!

Consumers set a Black Friday purchasing record, a pretty good number considering how terrible the economy is./

If you watch TikTok all you’ll see are videos about how empty the stores were, that the Black Friday deals are not real, and that Black Friday was a failure this year because Americans are “broke”.

I was just waiting for the actual analytics to come out and expected it would be the biggest ever.

126
No Malarkey!  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:16:03am
127
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:20:13am

re: #125 rhuarc

If you watch TikTok all you’ll see are videos about how empty the stores were, that the Black Friday deals are not real, and that Black Friday was a failure this year because Americans are “broke”.

I was just waiting for the actual analytics to come out and expected it would be the biggest ever.

You can spin business news any way you want. I look at who is writing the article and draw my conclusions (people with skin in the ga,e will do the opposite of what they tell you to do IMHO.)

WASHINGTON - The National Retail Federation today forecast that holiday spending is expected to reach record levels during November and December and will grow between 3% and 4% over 2022 to between $957.3 billion and $966.6 billion.

“It is not surprising to see holiday sales growth returning to pre-pandemic levels. Overall household finances remain in good shape and will continue to support the consumer’s ability to spend.”

Despite a slower growth rate compared with the past three years, when trillions of dollars of stimulus led to unprecedented rates of retail spending during the pandemic, this year’s holiday spending is consistent with the average annual holiday increase of 3.6% from 2010 to 2019.

nrf.com

128
Hecuba's daughter  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:20:27am

re: #67 Nerdy Fish

Great way to start.

[Embedded content]

Birbie here too

Click to Reveal

Wordle 890 3/6

⬜⬜🟨🟨⬜
⬜🟩⬜⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Group:2,3,4

After my 2nd word, I knew that the beagle woman would get the beagle.

129
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:27:58am

I love going through old files and reclaiming all my paperclips.

130
Backwoods Sleuth  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:37:57am

Mastodon

131
Jay C  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:40:22am

re: #127 Shropshire Slasher

“It is not surprising to see holiday sales growth returning to pre-pandemic levels. Overall household finances remain in good shape and will continue to support the consumer’s ability to spend.”

Undoubtedly true, but when there is a political motivation to downplay good economic news/accentuate negative opinions, you just KNOW that the Media will try to obfuscate the actual national economic outlook as much as they can. Yes, household finances are probably - in general - in good shape: but “$100 turkeys” and “$8 gas” make for better headlines - cherrypicking and outright bullshit notwithstanding.
And never mind RW media: for them it will always be “1932” (minus the Democratic wave, of course…..)

132
Backwoods Sleuth  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:45:50am

Mastodon

133
ericblair  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:46:53am

re: #124 DodgerFan1988

Apartheid Cyde thinks the n-word can save a billion white lives.

Another thought experiment: what if Elmo could only save a billion white lives by shouting “I’m A Racist” in a Twitter space? What then? Would he SAVE THE WORLD?

This whole thing is stupid even by Twitter standards, which is usually a pretty high bar.

134
DodgerFan1988  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:47:04am

re: #1 Unabogie

The ongoing debate about whether or not Elon Musk is an idiot is still raging.

[Embedded content]

135
Shropshire Slasher  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:47:27am

re: #132 Backwoods Sleuth

I think that is all of them in Burlington Vermont!

/////

136
Romantic Heretic  Nov 26, 2023 • 8:48:34am

re: #58 The Ghost of a Flea

I’m thinking of an old Larry Niven story where an individual from a race that had ruled the galaxy for 2 billion years gave a human the design for the most intelligent machine they had ever built.

Its answer to every important question was, ‘insufficient data’.

One day the intelligence was gone. The machine was still there but ‘it’ was gone.

Another member of the alien race told the main character that all their super AIs did the same thing. “Maybe if we knew what they knew we’d shut ourselves off as well.”

137
Backwoods Sleuth  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:02:43am

Mastodon

Mastodon

138
Romantic Heretic  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:02:51am

re: #114 Joe Bacon ✅

There’s a reason I call them ‘The Ministry Of Truth’.

139
Unabogie  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:03:54am

re: #134 DodgerFan1988

[Embedded content]

Jesus fucking christ. I really want to make business cards with these little factoids and leave them on every Tesla I see.

Buying a Tesla means supporting Nazis, Kyle.

140
Colère Tueur de Lapin ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:09:26am

re: #133 ericblair

The bar is so low it is a tavern in hades.

141
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:26:21am

Mastodon

142
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:26:21am

re: #137 Backwoods Sleuth

It looks like Steve Herman beat WaPo as to reporting the 4 year girl being released.

143
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:27:13am

GASP!

GOPer freaks out over…a “Satanic” Christmas Tree!

Rep. Mike Gallagher (R-WI) lashed out at Satanists in Wisconsin on Sunday after they celebrated the holiday season with their version of a Christmas tree.

During an appearance on (WHAT ELSE?) Fox News, host Sean Duffy asked Gallagher about one so-called “Satanic Christmas tree” that was displayed at the National Railroad Museum in Ashwaubenon. In all, 66 trees from different religions were on display.

“What’s happening in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and what’s the community’s response to a Satanic Christmas tree in your community?” Duffy wondered.

“The Railroad Museum’s response has been insufficient,” Gallagher insisted. “When parents and concerned citizens have contacted the Railroad Museum, they’ve said, well, this is an educational opportunity for kids, which is completely ridiculous, right?”

“I think it’s impossible to overstate how offensive this is to Christians,” he added. “It would be in quite a little sense the same thing as waving a Hamas flag inside of a synagogue.”

Gallagher said Satanists had ruined “a cool, fun thing to take your kids to.”

Rep. Mike Gallagher on Satanic Christmas trees

Was this sung when the tree was trimmed?

Youtube Video

144
Shiplord Kirel: From behind wingnut lines  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:27:15am

re: #122 Jay C

Bentley should put out a release to remind its customers that, despite the name, their cars cannot actually fly……

Not very far at any rate.

145
wrenchwench  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:30:07am

Mastodon

146
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:30:55am

re: #143 Joe Bacon ✅

Those folks would have a fit if they saw the christmas tree my hairdresser made years ago. It had the usual ornaments and small paper menorahs too. Everyone who saw it said it was one of the nicest trees they ever saw.

147
Backwoods Sleuth  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:34:18am

re: #142 PhillyPretzel ✅

It looks like Steve Herman beat WaPo as to reporting the 4 year girl being released.

He was posting while Biden was speaking

148
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:35:10am

re: #147 Backwoods Sleuth

Steve must be a fast typist. :)

149
FFL (GOP Delenda Est)  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:37:46am

re: #136 Romantic Heretic

I’m thinking of an old Larry Niven story where an individual from a race that had ruled the galaxy for 2 billion years gave a human the design for the most intelligent machine they had ever built.

Its answer to every important question was, ‘insufficient data’.

One day the intelligence was gone. The machine was still there but ‘it’ was gone.

Another member of the alien race told the main character that all their super AIs did the same thing. “Maybe if we knew what they knew we’d shut ourselves off as well.”

IIRC, in Bank’s Culture series a perfectly constructed “Mind” (Banks term for the AIs that essentially ran the civilization) would upon activation often almost instantly shift itself into a nebulous higher plane of existence and cease to be. Which sort of defeated the purpose for which they were being constructed.

150
Michele: Out of the closet, Into the fire  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:39:17am

re: #143 Joe Bacon ✅

GASP!

GOPer freaks out over…a “Satanic” Christmas Tree!

[Embedded content]

Rep. Mike Gallagher (R-WI) lashed out at Satanists in Wisconsin on Sunday after they celebrated the holiday season with their version of a Christmas tree.

During an appearance on (WHAT ELSE?) Fox News, host Sean Duffy asked Gallagher about one so-called “Satanic Christmas tree” that was displayed at the National Railroad Museum in Ashwaubenon. In all, 66 trees from different religions were on display.

“What’s happening in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and what’s the community’s response to a Satanic Christmas tree in your community?” Duffy wondered.

“The Railroad Museum’s response has been insufficient,” Gallagher insisted. “When parents and concerned citizens have contacted the Railroad Museum, they’ve said, well, this is an educational opportunity for kids, which is completely ridiculous, right?”

“I think it’s impossible to overstate how offensive this is to Christians,” he added. “It would be in quite a little sense the same thing as waving a Hamas flag inside of a synagogue.”

Gallagher said Satanists had ruined “a cool, fun thing to take your kids to.”

[Embedded content]

Ours would probably have them on their fainting coach clutching at their pearls.

151
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:39:40am

Synagogue Arsonist’s Disturbing Journals Reveal Plan to Join Military

A sentencing memo from prosecutors also says his parents did little to stop his descent into racist hate.

thedailybeast.com

The journals of a Texas college student who torched a synagogue two years ago reveal he had become “consumed” by virulent racist and antisemitic beliefs he developed years earlier and joined the state’s version of the National Guard because he thought it would “give him access to like-minded people who shared his hate.”

A Nov. 20 sentencing memo filed by federal prosecutors unveils an especially disturbing string of diary entries from Franklin Barrett Sechriest, who wrote about joining a neo-Völkisch hate group preaching ethnic Germanic superiority, vandalizing Freemason lodges, and other disquieting pursuits. Perhaps the least worrisome passage is one in which the then-18-year-old decries the “insane prices” of foreskin-replacement gear, and immediately pivots to playing RimWorld, a sci-fi space colony sim.

The memo, which runs to 107 pages and suggests a prison term of no less than 10 years, says Sechrist’s parents rewarded his abhorrent behavior with access to weapons and family trips to the shooting range.

Sechriest was arrested Nov. 12, 2021, for a Halloween-night arson after investigators with the Austin Fire Department identified the Texas State freshman through security footage of his license plate at Congregation Beth Israel. The fire caused more than $150,000 in damage, destroying the temple’s historic doors, ruining its stained glass windows, and wrecking the sanctuary.

In one of Sechriest’s journal entries released at the time, he wrote, “I set a synagogue on fire.” In another journal entry now being seen for the first time, Sechriest blamed Jews for COVID-19, talked about listening to white power music, and cyberstalking vulnerable people online. He expressed support for Nazism, denigrated the Talmud, and reminded himself to, variously, “be racist” to “[c]onsider actual terrorism,” and to “test Molotov cocktails.”

The journals suggest that Sechriest’s parents were acutely aware of their son’s antisemitism and hatred for non-whites. Still, they indulged him and his violent fantasies, according to the prosecution’s sentencing memo.

152
FFL (GOP Delenda Est)  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:46:54am

re: #151 Joe Bacon ✅

Will be curious if the civil suit for the damages will include the parents in it. (I presume there is a civil suit trying to get payment for the repairs and replacement.)

153
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:50:02am

re: #143 Joe Bacon ✅

There’s a guy in a neighborhood close to mine who didn’t bother to take down his Halloween yard decorations, he just updated them for Christmas.

Now he has a skeleton in a Santa suit, a snowman made of pumpkins and a dragon with antlers and a red nose.

154
jeffreyw  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:51:54am

I remember those tube testing stations back in the day.

155
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:52:08am

re: #153 Eclectic Cyborg

Quite a few of my neighbors have their lights up.

156
Dr Lizardo  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:53:29am

re: #154 jeffreyw

Last time I saw one of those was at a Radio Shack in Washougal, WA back in 1993.

157
jeffreyw  Nov 26, 2023 • 9:55:19am

re: #153 Eclectic Cyborg

There’s a guy in a neighborhood close to mine who didn’t bother to take down his Halloween yard decorations, he just updated them for Christmas.

Now he has a skeleton in a Santa suit, a snowman made of pumpkins and a dragon with antlers and a red nose.

He missed a good chance for a winning manger scene, the lazy fucker.

158
Teukka  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:01:40am

159
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:06:56am

re: #158 Teukka

That just doesn’t look right.

160
Decatur Deb  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:11:38am

re: #143 Joe Bacon ✅

GASP!

GOPer freaks out over…a “Satanic” Christmas Tree!

[Embedded content]

Rep. Mike Gallagher (R-WI) lashed out at Satanists in Wisconsin on Sunday after they celebrated the holiday season with their version of a Christmas tree.

During an appearance on (WHAT ELSE?) Fox News, host Sean Duffy asked Gallagher about one so-called “Satanic Christmas tree” that was displayed at the National Railroad Museum in Ashwaubenon. In all, 66 trees from different religions were on display.

“What’s happening in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and what’s the community’s response to a Satanic Christmas tree in your community?” Duffy wondered.

“The Railroad Museum’s response has been insufficient,” Gallagher insisted. “When parents and concerned citizens have contacted the Railroad Museum, they’ve said, well, this is an educational opportunity for kids, which is completely ridiculous, right?”

“I think it’s impossible to overstate how offensive this is to Christians,” he added. “It would be in quite a little sense the same thing as waving a Hamas flag inside of a synagogue.”

Gallagher said Satanists had ruined “a cool, fun thing to take your kids to.”

[Embedded content]

What was the Jewish entry in the 66 trees?

161
Sherlock Hound  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:19:03am

re: #154 jeffreyw

That’s something that should be sent to worldradiohistory.org !
That site has an amazing collection of old TV manuals! I used to fix them as a hobby in college, and I still use the instincts I learned in TV repair, for the computer field.

162
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:19:09am

re: #160 Decatur Deb

What was the Jewish entry in the 66 trees?

A good question! But we know that clown would find it just as offensive!

163
sagehen  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:40:43am

re: #157 jeffreyw

He missed a good chance for a winning manger scene, the lazy fucker.

still a month to go…

164
jeffreyw  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:46:15am

Sous vide tenderloin plus T-day leftovers

Call me anything but late for lunch.

165
Joe Bacon ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:48:41am

‘Not a menace but a messiah’: Author explains why Trump rant proves loyalty to white evangelicals

alternet.org

As anti-Trump conservative Pete Wehner recently pointed out in an op-ed for The Atlantic, white evangelicals “remain loyal” to the MAGA hopeful despite his use of “rhetoric” that is “clearly fascistic.”

In a Sunday, November 26 op-ed, MSNBC columnist andUnholy: How White Christian Nationalists Powered the Trump Presidency, and the Devastating Legacy They Left Behindauthor Sarah Posner suggests that one of the former president’s most recent Truth Social rants proves his loyalty to that specific demographic.

He wrote, “we will demolish the Deep State, we will expel the warmongers from our government, we will drive out the globalists, we will cast out the Communists, Marxists, and Fascists, we will throw off the sick political class that hates our Country, we will rout the Fake News Media, we will evict Joe Biden from the White House, and we will FINISH THE JOB ONCE AND FOR ALL! The 2024 election is our final battle.”

Posner writes, “Trump’s use of ‘cast out’ will provoke amens from his most loyal constituency: white evangelicals. That sort of term is commonly used by evangelicals, Pentecostals and charismatic Christians to describe the exorcism of demons. That could be in a personal situation, say, to cast out the ‘demon’ of homosexuality from a family member, or on a bigger stage, to cast out demons, in the form of political adversaries, from Washington.”

The author suggests, to white evangelicals, “Trump is not a menace but a messiah — which tells us a lot about what they think the God-ordained Christian nation should look like.”

She writes, “While Trump hasin the past used similar language to last weekend’s Truth Social post, this one came amid growing awareness that Trump is unequivocally saying that if he gets a second term, he will rule as a fascist.”

Posner writes:

Trump’s evangelical base believes God ordained America as a Christian nation, that the Christian nation is under attack by internal, satanic enemies (including the so-called communists), and that Christian patriots must wage ‘spiritual warfare’ against these demonic forces to restore the America God intended. Many of them also believe that God anointed Trump to save America at this crucial time in its history.

Furthermore, Posner emphasizes, “When Trump says “Communists, Marxists, and Fascists,” he doesn’t mean actual communists or fascists. He means Democrats.”

166
jeffreyw  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:55:47am

167
PhillyPretzel ✅  Nov 26, 2023 • 10:58:19am

re: #166 jeffreyw

Great shot. I had to look at it twice to see what it was.

168
jeffreyw  Nov 26, 2023 • 11:04:17am

re: #167 PhillyPretzel ✅

Great shot. I had to look at it twice to see what it was.

My first thought was “Look at the fuckin’ nose on that parrot!”

169
A Cranky One  Nov 26, 2023 • 11:08:07am

170
mmmirele  Nov 26, 2023 • 11:19:27am

OK, first let me be super-clear, I hate the Daily Fail. I hate that it’s a tabloid. I hate it.

That said, they (and the Associated Press) are the only organizations bringing this to light right now. And y’all may remember that here in AZ, a court ruled that the Mormon church could not be held accountable for the continued rape of two children, even if the local leaders and the attorneys in Salt Lake City knew, because of the state’s clergy exemption. Oh, and there’s a Republican in our legislature (Catholic, to be clear) who is blocking legislation that would remove the clergy exemption for reporting child abuse. (Personally, I’d like to stake this guy, naked and coated in honey, on top of a fire ant mound, so he can kind of get the feeling that the children experienced being raped by their father. Yeah, I’m *pissed off*.)

So, with that out of the way, the Daily Fail published another article today about how there was a coverup of the abuse two women experienced as children, and their leaders knew about it.

A few months before her 18th birthday, Katie Wallace hatched a plan to overdose on heroin.

She and a male friend who had her hooked on the drug would do it together, ending years of misery to which the 17-year-old saw no way out.

It was not the path the Mormon church, in which Katie had been raised, had ordained for her.

But it was one that she holds the religion responsible for, after church leaders allegedly covered up years of rampant sexual abuse and incest within her family.

For Katie, now 39, it began when she was four. Unbeknown to her, her abuser, a close relative, had assaulted her older sister, Becky, years before.

The church knew but did nothing, allowing a ‘vicious circle’ of abuse to break out within the family, the sisters claim.

They have bravely shared their story with dailymail.com to expose what they believe is an ‘epidemic’ of sexual abuse in Mormon homes, which they and countless other victims claim is buried by ecclesiastical leaders in a bid to protect the church’s reputation.

It comes after our investigation revealed last week that the church is facing legal action over allegations it has ‘maintained a pattern and practice’ of hiding abuse from authorities.

More than a dozen current and former members of the church have come forward with shocking claims of a culture of ‘cover ups’ - defying leaders who are alleged to have ‘silenced’ and ‘threatened’ those who speak out.

More at the link: dailymail.co.uk

I *hate* that the Daily Mail is doing this. Hate it. But if it gets help for survivors, I’m ok with that.


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