2 | laZardo Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:20:49pm |
It’s hazy like that outside right now. Supposed to be a Category 4 bearing down on us this Halloween weekend but no rainfall just yet.
4 | freetoken Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:21:12pm |
A foggy morning at the beach… the mist hanging still in the air, punctuated by the erect smoke stacks of Industry…
Ah, industry… reminds me of Japan, a place where items are still made… including anime, perhaps Japan’s greatest gift to the world in the past 20 years.
Just ask Pikachu!
5 | freetoken Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:22:37pm |
7 | laZardo Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:25:20pm |
re: #4 freetoken
A foggy morning at the beach… the mist hanging still in the air, punctuated by the erect smoke stacks of Industry…
Ah, industry… reminds me of Japan, a place where items are still made… including anime, perhaps Japan’s greatest gift to the world in the past 20 years.
Just ask Pikachu!
Speaking of pokeymanz, this is where my username comes from.
/and no, i dont liek mudkipz.
9 | anie Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:27:34pm |
re: #4 freetoken
Nooo…
Not anime. I once had a dreadful blind date wherein he droned on and on about anime, medieval weaponry, and his mother. It completely put me off anime forever!
10 | laZardo Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:28:43pm |
re: #5 freetoken
Looks like it will mostly be to your south:
[Link: www.wunderground.com…]
Only just. Having the eye right over my house in the next 48 hours doesn’t seem unlikely at this point.
11 | Four More Tears Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:31:14pm |
14 | laZardo Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:33:24pm |
Gonna head out to fetch some modeling cement. Been getting back into putting together scale model things for the first time in a decade. BBL.
15 | Fenway_Nation Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:35:38pm |
re: #2 laZardo
The quiet before the storm, LaZardo.
17 | anie Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:36:17pm |
re: #11 JasonA
No second date, but he tried. I even had to use the tired “it’s not you, it’s me” line to get rid of him. He did indeed talk about his mother, and how I might want to deal with her in the future. This was a mere 20 minutes into dinner, confirming that there would be no second date. I quickly changed the subject and was then subjected to a great deal of explanation surrounding anime. Thus my terror at the subject.
18 | Fenway_Nation Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:37:03pm |
Oh…and tonight’s Most Unfortunate Headline.
20 | Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:38:19pm |
21 | Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:41:11pm |
re: #18 Fenway_Nation
I read about that. It’s just weird.
22 | anie Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:42:55pm |
Definately a Mommy complex. But maybe it is me…and I am just the wrong sort of woman to be impressed by a mama’s boy who like anime and playing knight. Perhaps if I were a damsel in distress it would have worked out…
23 | Four More Tears Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:43:12pm |
re: #17 anie
Wow. I usually try to make first dates as comfortable as possible. That sounds like the complete opposite. Sounds like it was certainly memorable, though.
Okay, now I’m sleepy.
24 | Fenway_Nation Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:43:55pm |
re: #17 anie
Going Dutch probably didn’t help, either.
25 | Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:47:10pm |
re: #22 anie
Definately a Mommy complex. But maybe it is me…and I am just the wrong sort of woman to be impressed by a mama’s boy who like anime and playing knight. Perhaps if I were a damsel in distress it would have worked out…
Did he at least pay?
It could have been worse. He could have spent the whole time talking about Hentai.
26 | anie Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:47:43pm |
re: #24 Fenway_Nation
It was certainly memorable. And convinced me that blind dates were entirely unecesary in my life! Oh, well, at least the sushi was good and I have a funny story about it. But he did pay. I’m sure his chivalrous sensibilities required it.
27 | anie Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:51:22pm |
Of course it could have been worse…
I am trying to think of how.
Perhaps I should be more charitable and hope he has found himself some kind of crazy young earth creationist girl who will worship the ground he walks on.
/
28 | Fenway_Nation Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:56:51pm |
re: #26 anie
/it was the code of the cybernetic ninja samurai.
29 | anie Thu, Oct 29, 2009 11:59:00pm |
re: #18 Fenway_Nation
So I was reading about this. This is of course tragic, but what is this girl’s mother thinking? The animals are probably rabid, or have something wrong that would make them attack a person, which is totally out of character. I like animals too, but not at the expense of them attacking other humans.
30 | Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:03:17am |
re: #29 anie
I know…she needs to stop and think that one through. A pack of wild predators who have already killed, displayed zero fear of humans roving free and possibly developing a taste for human blood.
/what’s the big deal? Sheesh…
31 | anie Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:07:03am |
re: #30 Fenway_Nation
Precisely. And on that high note, I am out. Good night!
32 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:08:02am |
Posting this for no other reason that I like it.
33 | Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:08:36am |
BTW- notice how it took as long as the first batter for Pedro to face to get a ‘Who’s Your Daddy?’ chant going at Yankee Stadium tonight?
Pedro has this tendency to lose the battle but win the war…
34 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:26:00am |
re: #32 ArchangelMichael
Posting this for no other reason that I like it.
Everything Souxise related = automatic upding.
BTW, this is the first time I clicked your nic— i’m the mirror image of your result on the political compass when I’ve taken that test. Exactly the same but on the left side, same distance between authoritarian and libertarian. heh.
35 | Baboon Cheeks Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:31:38am |
Shakira - Whenever, Wherever
36 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:38:03am |
re: #34 iceweasel
Everything Souxise related = automatic upding.
BTW, this is the first time I clicked your nic— i’m the mirror image of your result on the political compass when I’ve taken that test. Exactly the same but on the left side, same distance between authoritarian and libertarian. heh.
I’ll be the W- Boson to your W+ Boson. Together we form… a weak force apparently.
37 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:39:35am |
re: #36 ArchangelMichael
oh guess the part where our signs differ, I’d be the + though… oh well, I got my science geek humor quotient out of it anyway.
38 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:41:31am |
I’d love to meet the bizarro D&D True Neutral alignment person that gets a 0.0, 0.0 on that test.
39 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:47:29am |
And this, because it makes me happy and I’m not in all that great of a place right now.
40 | Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:48:05am |
Here’s a really good recent U2 show
41 | Baboon Cheeks Fri, Oct 30, 2009 12:59:04am |
The Indelicates - America :
42 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:06:27am |
re: #38 ArchangelMichael
I’d love to meet the bizarro D&D True Neutral alignment person that gets a 0.0, 0.0 on that test.
Awesome. I would too. And updinging for the D&D geek humour. I always played Chaotic Neutral. :)
As for the W+ and -, I dig it. These could also go on our superhero outfits when we found Weak Force, and stand politically for Dubya. /
I’m sorry you’re not in a good place though. What’s up? On the other hand, I like when you DJ the LNDT. Selfish of me, I know.
43 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:13:37am |
re: #42 iceweasel
Awesome. I would too. And updinging for the D&D geek humour. I always played Chaotic Neutral. :)
As for the W+ and -, I dig it. These could also go on our superhero outfits when we found Weak Force, and stand politically for Dubya. /
I’m sorry you’re not in a good place though. What’s up? On the other hand, I like when you DJ the LNDT. Selfish of me, I know.
Just a whole litany of little to medium sized problems and one possible large one that are all piling up to stress me out. Some days it’s easier to just suck it up than others. The bar brawl 2 threads down really depressed the hell out of me too.
45 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:21:09am |
For the upcoming holiday. This year is the first time I’ll actually have a costume for a halloween party since 1998.
46 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:25:07am |
re: #43 ArchangelMichael
Just a whole litany of little to medium sized problems and one possible large one that are all piling up to stress me out. Some days it’s easier to just suck it up than others. The bar brawl 2 threads down really depressed the hell out of me too.
Ugh, I hear that. And the depression over that thread as well. I have only three words as comment: What. the. fuck.
Definitely going to do my best (which means doing better than I did there) to stay the hell out of some conversations.
What’s your costume?
47 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:32:25am |
re: #46 iceweasel
Ugh, I hear that. And the depression over that thread as well. I have only three words as comment: What. the. fuck.
Definitely going to do my best (which means doing better than I did there) to stay the hell out of some conversations.What’s your costume?
Every Halloween party in town seems to have a Zombie Apocalypse theme so I’m going as one of the soldiers that comes in at the end of every movie to kill everything that moves.
49 | freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:37:01am |
The last was the famous piece “The Swan” from Saint-saens’ “The Carnival of the Animals”.
A version can be downloaded for free from the LGF Amazon store:
Indeed the LGF Amazon Store:
astore.amazon.com
has many interesting links to products, including free music!
50 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:48:29am |
re: #47 ArchangelMichael
Every Halloween party in town seems to have a Zombie Apocalypse theme so I’m going as one of the soldiers that comes in at the end of every movie to kill everything that moves.
Excellent. i have to see Zombieland; someone (FBV?) was telling me how great it is. Love zombie movies.
51 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:50:52am |
re: #41 Jimmah
The Indelicates - America :
I can’t bring myself to post Scotland the Brave at the moment (doesn’t feel like a bagpipes mood to me) but here is more Indelicates: Julia We Don’t Live in The Sixties
52 | theheat Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:53:05am |
re: #47 ArchangelMichael
I’m going as one of the soldiers that comes in at the end of every movie to kill everything that moves.
I’m going as the mild-mannered vegetarian cigarette smoker that hasn’t had a cigarette in two *%#$@ days, and has decided instead to bite people and eat human flesh. Dressed as myself, of course.
Not in a happy place, for sure.
53 | Jack Burton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:54:14am |
re: #50 iceweasel
Excellent. i have to see Zombieland; someone (FBV?) was telling me how great it is. Love zombie movies.
Originally I was going to do a BSG marine but I couldn’t get the patches delivered on time. This fits the theme better anyway and its basically the same thing.
54 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:57:30am |
re: #53 ArchangelMichael
Originally I was going to do a BSG marine but I couldn’t get the patches delivered on time. This fits the theme better anyway and its basically the same thing.
Love BSG. Only just started the second season. Don’t tell me anything about it!
Naturally, I’m a big fan of Starbuck.
55 | freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:57:59am |
re: #50 iceweasel
Excellent. i have to see Zombieland;…
Not from the movie, but there is a catchy tune called “zombieland” from the slightly off kilter T Bone Burnett:
57 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:37:21am |
re: #34 iceweasel
Cities in Dust = perfect song
Ornaments of Gold = perfect song
Killing Jar = perfect song
58 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:40:54am |
re: #55 freetoken
Not from the movie, but there is a catchy tune called “zombieland” from the slightly off kilter T Bone Burnett:
[Video]
Loved it. Thank you!
re: #57 WindUpBird
Cities in Dust = perfect song
Ornaments of Gold = perfect song
Killing Jar = perfect song
good stuff here. And how are you today, my feathered friend?
59 | rwdflynavy Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:42:15am |
Good Morning Lizard Army. 1 Day until I bring a keg of homemade Cherry Wheat to our squadron tailgate of the FL/GA game. Yummy!
60 | freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:43:31am |
61 | theheat Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:49:45am |
Headline from CNN Defriending can bruise your ‘digital ego’
“People tend to think that these relationships are trivial and not very deep, but this is what we’re moving towards, having a lot of our communications play out over the Internet,” Purdue University social psychologist Kip Williams said. “That’s the way it’s becoming; this is how we interpret our worth. People care how many [online] friends they have.”
Can’t argue with what they’re saying, but I think it’s unfortunate people allow the internet to define such a large part of their lives and self worth. People used to have hobbies, and go out and do things. Now people’s actions and personalities are sometimes almost entirely digital, like mysterious Photoshopped characters that recharge by typing and texting.
62 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:53:10am |
re: #60 freetoken
The song struck me as a very LGF-kind of tune.
It really is. i love it. I’m missing the Keith Jarret nightly Ocean tune thing we had going for a couple of nights there.
So much music, so little cash…
63 | TheMatrix31 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:57:28am |
re: #61 theheat
Headline from CNN Defriending can bruise your ‘digital ego’
Can’t argue with what they’re saying, but I think it’s unfortunate people allow the internet to define such a large part of their lives and self worth. People used to have hobbies, and go out and do things. Now people’s actions and personalities are sometimes almost entirely digital, like mysterious Photoshopped characters that recharge by typing and texting.
No difference between internet and real life nowadays. It’s all intertwined. I have no problem with getting upset/fighting with people I don’t know “in real life”. It’s 2009, this is how it goes.
64 | Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 2:58:39am |
re: #59 rwdflynavy
Good Morning Lizard Army. 1 Day until I bring a keg of homemade Cherry Wheat to our squadron tailgate of the FL/GA game. Yummy!
That, my friend, is one big party!!
65 | rwdflynavy Fri, Oct 30, 2009 3:05:43am |
This is sad and very odd.
66 | theheat Fri, Oct 30, 2009 3:06:31am |
re: #63 TheMatrix31
No difference between internet and real life nowadays. It’s all intertwined. I have no problem with getting upset/fighting with people I don’t know “in real life”. It’s 2009, this is how it goes.
I know it’s the norm anymore. Perhaps I’m being overly simplistic or sentimental, but I vaguely remember feeling a lot more interesting as a person (how I perceive myself) when both my business and resulting social life wasn’t so owned by the internet.
67 | rwdflynavy Fri, Oct 30, 2009 3:08:24am |
re: #64 Cannadian Club Akbar
That, my friend, is one big party!!
The world’s largest cocktail party! We have 5 tailgate spots for various vehicles, generator, grill, portapotty etc. I think we are ready. Oh yeah, and this!!Humanity’s greatest achievement
68 | rwdflynavy Fri, Oct 30, 2009 3:14:01am |
Gotta run get kids up and ready for school. BBL.
69 | theheat Fri, Oct 30, 2009 3:15:17am |
re: #65 rwdflynavy
Yes, odd. That isn’t typical coyote behavior. However, it occurred in a national park where wild animals live. Wild animals don’t always play by the rules.
72 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Oct 30, 2009 3:50:17am |
I used to live out on a ranch near Sedona, Arizona. used to really llove the romantic sound of the lonesome coyotes.
But once in a while I would hear an awful snarling sound sound like that of a pack of them ripping something apart. It would terrify me, and I would even call in the dogs and lock them up in the garage (They usually ran around free all day and night).
I remembered that sound when I heard about that Canadian folk singer…
73 | Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 3:50:35am |
re: #65 rwdflynavy
This is sad and very odd.
Blogged about that and the very odd reaction from the folk singer’s mother, rwdflynavy.
/and I still hate the Yankees withthe white-hot intesity of 10,000 suns simultaneously going supernova- altho to be fair, I hated them when they were a bunch of overpaid losers, too.
74 | ryannon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 4:38:46am |
The Charles Johnson Overnight Ocean Thread Photo Watch
Can you say, WYSIWYG?
Yeah, right.
/
75 | Soundboard Fez Fri, Oct 30, 2009 4:41:28am |
re: #73 Fenway_Nation
/and I still hate the Yankees withthe white-hot intesity of 10,000 suns simultaneously going supernova- altho to be fair, I hated them when they were a bunch of overpaid losers, too.
Seeing as they loaded up with a half-bill of fresh meat over the winter, it’s going to be a long couple years. :(
76 | Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 4:45:21am |
re: #75 Soundboard Fez
But it’s just so damn gratifying once it finally does unravel (Arizona, 2001, Anaheim 2002, Florida 2003, Boston 2004, Anaheim (again) 2005, Detroit 2006, Cleveland 2007, Nobody 2008)…the question is…when
77 | Soundboard Fez Fri, Oct 30, 2009 4:47:23am |
re: #76 Fenway_Nation
My guess is that it will happen either when CC and Burnett get about three years deep into their contracts and start the downhill slide, or when somebody develops a cheap and reliable test for HGH use. Whichever comes first.
78 | Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 4:48:31am |
That’s about it for me, lizards and lurkers- don’t forget to visit Seven’s alehouse if you find yourself in Beacon Hill.
79 | Bloodnok Fri, Oct 30, 2009 4:54:35am |
Good Morning LGF. Some music to relax to.
81 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:06:54am |
Wow, this is kind of cool, if true…Gates and Crowley spotted together having another ‘beer summit’ on their own in a cambridge pub.
tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com
It’d be nice if it’s true. Makes it seem like they’re both over it and it wasn’t for a photo-op.
82 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:08:05am |
Is that the factory down at Hermosa Beach?
83 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:11:29am |
re: #30 Fenway_Nation
… A pack of wild predators who have already killed, displayed zero fear of humans roving free and possibly developing a taste for human blood…
Glenn Beck and his producers?
85 | ryannon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:23:32am |
Two American Beauties:
Fine songwriting and a nice little video to go with it: Dan Fogelberg: Tucson, Arizona (Gazette)
John Stewart’s amazing Gold with an equally amazing Stevie Nicks doing backup vocals.
Riding over Kanan, singing to my soul,
People out there turning music into gold…
86 | thedopefishlives Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:26:09am |
Morning lizards. Having an “Indian spring” here in the wild north country; warm but not overly so, and raining cats and dogs for almost the last 24 hours straight. Ugh.
87 | CapeCoddah Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:29:12am |
Good Morning everyone!
Overcast and cool here this morning… but still a beautiful morning!
88 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:34:19am |
Happy Morning Lizards!
It was blustery all night and is still blustery this morning.
How are you-all?
89 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:35:26am |
91 | akarra Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:39:11am |
re: #65 rwdflynavy
This is sad and very odd.
That’s very sad - I hadn’t heard her music yet: will have to check it out. Thank you for the link.
96 | reloadingisnotahobby Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:44:23am |
re: #91 akarra
I’ve seen them in action,up close and personal!
Then people wonder why Utah has a bounty…Sad!
97 | Jetpilot1101 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:45:25am |
Good morning Lizards,
For those of you who pray, could you please keep the USMC and USCG in your prayers today. Last night, a CG C130 and a MC Cobra collided. 9 people were involved in the accident between both airframes and thus far, no survivors have been found. Aviation tends to be a small community in the military and one of the guys in my office knew a lot of the C130 crewmembers.
Thank you very much. Semper Paratus & Semper Fidelis.
JP1101
99 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:46:18am |
re: #34 iceweasel
Everything Souxise related = automatic upding.
BTW, this is the first time I clicked your nic— i’m the mirror image of your result on the political compass when I’ve taken that test. Exactly the same but on the left side, same distance between authoritarian and libertarian. heh.
#1 For the banshees
Compared to my rating on the politcal compass, you’re both extremists ;)
politicalcompass.org
100 | reloadingisnotahobby Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:46:34am |
re: #95 akarra
I’m well!
Loving my 4/10’s ..wondering what to do today…
Not sure how ya feel about this but…I was going to go to hills and see if I could call in a Coyote or two…
101 | akarra Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:46:57am |
re: #96 reloadingisnotahobby
Yeah, when I lived around Dallas, they were roaming around killing small animals. It wasn’t the wisest thing to walk around areas that weren’t as developed at night.
102 | akarra Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:49:07am |
re: #100 reloadingisnotahobby
I’m well!
Loving my 4/10’s ..wondering what to do today…
Not sure how ya feel about this but…I was going to go to hills and see if I could call in a Coyote or two…
You’re gonna go hunting? Sounds like fun - I wanna be outside, but I need to be productive here. I have to get back to work soon, am on a deadline.
103 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:50:43am |
re: #92 reloadingisnotahobby
In bed!!!
That’s the best idea I’ve heard ALL day. It’s rainy, I don’t have to be anywhere for a while and I have 3 doggies who like to snuggle.
Have a great day all!
104 | reloadingisnotahobby Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:50:43am |
re: #102 akarra
Productivity is over rated!!LOL
I saw more dogs than Elk earlier this month on my hunt!
105 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:50:49am |
I missed some good threads yesterday, wish I had been here for the Ice melt video thread.
106 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:51:24am |
re: #104 reloadingisnotahobby
You were hunting dogs? They good eatin?
107 | akarra Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:51:30am |
re: #103 ggt
That’s the best idea I’ve heard ALL day. It’s rainy, I don’t have to be anywhere for a while and I have 3 doggies who like to snuggle.
Have a great day all!
Take care!
108 | reloadingisnotahobby Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:52:01am |
re: #103 ggt
My wifes daycare kiddies will be here in 6=5=4=3…
The garage heater is on so I’m good!
109 | reloadingisnotahobby Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:52:51am |
re: #106 RogueOne
Taste like Eagle!!
Better than Spotted Owl by far!!!
110 | akarra Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:52:59am |
re: #104 reloadingisnotahobby
Productivity is over rated!!LOL
I saw more dogs than Elk earlier this month on my hunt!
If you do go, best of luck - hope you get something good.
I should be on a bit later, but right now work beckons. Thanks for saying hi!
111 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:53:41am |
re: #96 reloadingisnotahobby
I’ve seen them in action,up close and personal!
Then people wonder why Utah has a bounty…Sad!
I posted the same story yesterday, because I found the behavior described to be extremely unusual - in fact, I’ve never heard of coyotes engaging in such an attack anywhere, and I’ve run across them a lot. They’re normally extremely shy about humans, and tend more toward scavenging than actual hunting when they can get away with it. And even when hunting, they concentrate on prey that’s a lot smaller than they are - rodents, mostly.
I’m thinking there might have been something wrong with them in this case - rabies, perhaps, or some other disease. This sort of attack is an aberration, as far as I know.
112 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:53:48am |
Pay problem parents not to breed
Mayor Laws goes on to write: “it would be far better for this appalling underclass to be offered financial inducements not to have children, given the toxic environment that they would provide for any child in their care.”
113 | reloadingisnotahobby Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:55:21am |
re: #111 SixDegrees
I’ve seen four take down a yearling bull…Amazing and frightening…
didn’t have a camera or a rifle!
114 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:55:47am |
re: #109 reloadingisnotahobby
mmm, spotted owl with a shoulderband snail sause.
117 | reloadingisnotahobby Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:58:06am |
Here come the kiddies…I’m out
Later all!
118 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:58:07am |
re: #109 reloadingisnotahobby
Taste like Eagle!!
Better than Spotted Owl by far!!!
Heh. When we were in Washington state, we noticed that the whole place is lousy with eagles. They’re everywhere. Out in the Sound, we saw a group of them on a small island, chowing down on what turned out to be a baby seal - which disturbed the other tourists to no end. How to reconcile this? A protected species killing and eating…a baby seal! Horror of horrors.
My comment - which was to wonder aloud what roasted eagle fed out on seal might taste like - was not well received.
I expect eagles will be de-listed shortly. They’ve made a remarkable comeback, even back here in the Midwest, and don’t seem to need special protections anymore.
119 | Mike DeGuzman Fri, Oct 30, 2009 5:58:40am |
This is one of the stranges law they have in Texas!
Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch ‘Hardcore Porn’
A 1970s-era Texas law that allows parents to show “harmful material” to their children has come under fire after a prosecutor said he couldn’t file charges against a man accused of forcing his 8- and 9-year-old daughters to watch hardcore online pornography.
120 | DaddyG Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:04:10am |
re: #119 Mike DeGuzman
A 1970s-era Texas law that allows parents to show “harmful material” to their children…
[Link: www.foxnews.com…]
Isn’t Darwin’s Origin of the Species considered harmful material in Texas? /
121 | Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:04:25am |
re: #118 SixDegrees
Hey Six, just wondering what “Devil’s Night” has been like the last few years?
122 | DaddyG Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:08:04am |
I don’t know what to say. He’s not exactly Islamic husband of the year but whoa!
123 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:08:22am |
re: #119 Mike DeGuzman
That man is obviously farked up. Still, I don’t see it being the govt’s role to dictate what parents are allowed to show their kids. On the other hand, it should make a difference to a judge during a custody dispute.
I found this link on the fox site right below that story. It’s a sad story of a marriage gone bad. They’ve been married for only 5 months but she’s already prepared to slit his throat. I don’t think these poor love birds relationship is going to make it.
silive.com
STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. — A 37-year-old wife from New Brighton tried to slit her husband’s throat as he slept because he was not the devout Muslim she believed she married, and pressured her to eat pork and drink alcohol, authorities allege.
Rushdie is her husbands favorite author, that should have been a decent clue.
124 | Spider mensch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:08:24am |
re: #118 SixDegrees
Heh. When we were in Washington state, we noticed that the whole place is lousy with eagles. They’re everywhere. Out in the Sound, we saw a group of them on a small island, chowing down on what turned out to be a baby seal - which disturbed the other tourists to no end. How to reconcile this? A protected species killing and eating…a baby seal! Horror of horrors.
My comment - which was to wonder aloud what roasted eagle fed out on seal might taste like - was not well received.
I expect eagles will be de-listed shortly. They’ve made a remarkable comeback, even back here in the Midwest, and don’t seem to need special protections anymore.
I live basically about 5 miles out of NYC boardering the New jersy meadowlands, supposedly there has been recent sighting of bald eagles right here in our back yard (the meadowlands). While I try to keep an eye out, I have not personally seen them. but here is a local report…
meadowblog.typepad.com
anyhow, point being if the bald eagles are living here, then yes, they have made a comeback.
125 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:09:04am |
re: #122 DaddyG
damnit daddg beat me by less than 30 secs. Almost in stereo
126 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:12:21am |
re: #124 Spider mensch
Get a few “close to extinct” animals who like to screw together, protect them, the problem generally solves itself.
Friend of mine went buffalo hunting recently. Came back with some interesting stories about the conservation efforts.
Yay.
But if mosquitos become threatened and anybody tries to save them, well, a pox upon their houses. (yeah, it’ll never happen)…
127 | Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:14:46am |
re: #126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Add lovebugs to the list.
128 | DaddyG Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:18:21am |
re: #126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mosquitos and broccoli make me doubt creationism and evolution equally. The only other theory that makes sense in light of their evidence is that we are space aliens who were marooned on this planet.
129 | KenJen Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:19:45am |
re: #126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Get a few “close to extinct” animals who like to screw together, protect them, the problem generally solves itself.
Friend of mine went buffalo hunting recently. Came back with some interesting stories about the conservation efforts.
Yay.
But if mosquitos become threatened and anybody tries to save them, well, a pox upon their houses. (yeah, it’ll never happen)…
The Asiatic Wild Ass is endangered and up for anything.
130 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:21:23am |
re: #124 Spider mensch
I haven’t seen them yet either, but they apparently roost up and down the Hackensack River in tall dead trees, which give them excellent views of the river and their food sources. Some have been sighted in the vicinity of Riverside Square Mall at Rt. 4.
I was recently out in South Dakota’s Badlands/Black Hills area and saw quite a bit of bison and other wildlife. The bison are a sight to behold, and here’s a shot of one of the pronghorn I saw.
131 | Liberal Classic Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:21:31am |
Obama Administration: Stimulus Directly Saved or Created Roughly 650,000 Jobs
blogs.abcnews.com
The Obama administration’s $787 billion stimulus bill directly saved or created about 650,000 jobs as of the end of last month, administration officials announced this morning.
At $1.2 million per job saved or created, I wonder if anyone in the Obama administration has ever taken a college level economics course. Or maybe they have, but they didn’t really believe what they were being taught.
133 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:25:11am |
re: #119 Mike DeGuzman
This is one of the stranges law they have in Texas!
Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch ‘Hardcore Porn’
A 1970s-era Texas law that allows parents to show “harmful material” to their children has come under fire after a prosecutor said he couldn’t file charges against a man accused of forcing his 8- and 9-year-old daughters to watch hardcore online pornography.
[Link: www.foxnews.com…]
That is a seriously disturbing story. The problem seems to be that the law was written in an extremely sloppy (and sex-phobic) way:
The law apparently was meant to protect the privacy of parents who wanted to teach children about sex education, but it states clearly that parents can’t be prosecuted for showing “harmful material” to their children.
Now that’s just crazy. They were inadvertently saying that sex ed material could be ‘harmful material’ in the way they wrote that; it should have been a no-brainer that there’s a huge difference between sex ed material and harmful material.
If I were the mother of those two girls, I would be so furious I would want to do some physical harm to the ex now that he can’t be prosecuted. How can there not be some statute or other under which he can be charged? This can’t possibly be the first time a parent has forced his kid to watch pr0n in TX. It’s a huge state and unfortunately the number of sickos is huge everywhere.
134 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:26:12am |
re: #131 Liberal Classic
The cost is far less than that because the amount of money going to stimulus at this point is a fraction of the $787 costs (not factoring inflation, interest on debt, which pushes true cost of the stimulus to over $1.2 trillion).
Problem is that jobs saved is a bogus metric. No one has ever counted jobs saved when trying to show economic development precisely because what counts as a job saved. I still have my job, but that has nothing to do with government action. But you could count it as a job saved since you wouldn’t know what would have happened if the government didn’t spend taxpayer money faster than they can print it.
As for the jobs actually created, there’s a bit of controversy over that as well, given that the government’s own website has peculiar counting of jobs created - the number is far lower than you might reasonably expect.
And the economy continues shedding jobs and the jobless rates are soaring - because businesses aren’t hiring. They aren’t firing as many because they’ve cut to the bone already so there’s less jobs that can be cut. The unemployment rate touted doesn’t count people who have stopped looking for jobs or have lost their unemployment benefits because their time ran out, so the situation is far gloomier than the WH spin (which this is all about in any event).
135 | Spider mensch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:26:24am |
re: #130 lawhawk
I haven’t seen them yet either, but they apparently roost up and down the Hackensack River in tall dead trees, which give them excellent views of the river and their food sources. Some have been sighted in the vicinity of Riverside Square Mall at Rt. 4.
I was recently out in South Dakota’s Badlands/Black Hills area and saw quite a bit of bison and other wildlife. The bison are a sight to behold, and here’s a shot of one of the pronghorn I saw.
good photos!
it’s really amazing the wildlife that lives here in one of the most congested areas in the world, in the past year wild turkey on the prowl in Kearny and Nutley ( my wife and I saw one literally walking down the sidewalk on centre street in Nutley in the middle of the day). a deer jumping through the back yards in Lyndhurst. This is suburbia, those critters aren’t suppose to be here…lol..but they are :)
136 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:27:16am |
137 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:28:39am |
re: #121 Cannadian Club Akbar
Hey Six, just wondering what “Devil’s Night” has been like the last few years?
Calm. That whole fiasco died down many years ago, although a good deal of credit for that has to be given to community groups who still organize patrols to head off rampant arson and other misbehavior.
Like a guy who was interviewed during the height of the problem said years ago: “If the city would come in and tear these places down, we wouldn’t have to burn them down.” Most of the really bad places have long since been destroyed - by the city or otherwise - so it just isn’t as much of a problem as it once was when it came to national attention.
138 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:29:00am |
re: #129 KenJen
The Asiatic Wild Ass is endangered and up for anything.
“She’s equine… doo lang doo lang doo lang…”
139 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:29:55am |
Now, I’ve got to run and…
“Do that voodoo, that Hugh do, so weeelll!”
-That’s Hedley
140 | FrogMarch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:30:46am |
Hi all.
It looks like China’s air pollution has reached the US coast again.
141 | DaddyG Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:31:13am |
re: #133 iceweasel
I would think that social services could intervene based on child endangerment given the nature of the fathers actions despite the law about “harmful materials”.
142 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:32:12am |
re: #121 Cannadian Club Akbar
Hey Six, just wondering what “Devil’s Night” has been like the last few years?
Is Six in detroit? I’ve been told devils night is pretty weak compared to decades past.
143 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:32:35am |
re: #142 RogueOne
Is Six in detroit? I’ve been told devils night is pretty weak compared to decades past.
Yes and yes.
144 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:32:59am |
re: #137 SixDegrees
I am f’n slow today. Stupid customers keep cutting into my online time.
145 | Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:33:24am |
re: #142 RogueOne
Now they only set fires when the Wings win the cup.
//
146 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:33:41am |
re: #141 DaddyG
I would think that social services could intervene based on child endangerment given the nature of the fathers actions despite the law about “harmful materials”.
the parents are divorced but (I think) share custody. Clearly the guy should lose custody and probably only have supervised visitation (IMO), just for the safety of the girls, but I would want him punished as well.
147 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:34:06am |
re: #143 SixDegrees
I was just up there yesterday. I was born there and still have quite a few relatives running around.
148 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:34:21am |
re: #145 Cannadian Club Akbar
Now they only set fires when the Wings win the cup.
//
No; we only set fires when the Tigers win the pennant. When the Wings win the cup, we throw octopus.
You’re obviously a tourist. /
149 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:36:06am |
re: #147 RogueOne
I was just up there yesterday. I was born there and still have quite a few relatives running around.
I was born and grew up in Detroit - well, Highland Park, actually - and although I don’t live in the city proper anymore, I’m just outside it and spend a lot of time there still.
For those who don’t know, Highland Park is a city completely contained within the city of Detroit. It shares this distinction with neighboring Hamtramck.
150 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:36:58am |
Gotta go finish some home improvements. BIAB.
151 | FrogMarch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:38:05am |
re: #131 Liberal Classic
Obama Administration: Stimulus Directly Saved or Created Roughly 650,000 Jobs
[Link: blogs.abcnews.com…]At $1.2 million per job saved or created, I wonder if anyone in the Obama administration has ever taken a college level economics course. Or maybe they have, but they didn’t really believe what they were being taught.
1.2 million of productive money given to save or create a government job.
We should all be so honored to have contributed.
Meanwhile…
George Soros is poised to shell out millions to pay for anti-free market propaganda. I’m certain employment will really be improved after all of the earth’s uber left-wing mega-rich put there money in a pot and figure out more ways to destroy it all - so that glorious big daddy government can come to our rescue.
152 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:39:10am |
re: #149 SixDegrees
For those who don’t know, Highland Park is a city completely contained within the city of Detroit. It shares this distinction with neighboring Hamtramck.
Hamtramck is where my family lived when I was born. You might be a long lost cousin.
153 | Ojoe Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:39:19am |
The rosy dawn on the burnt-over San Gabriel Mountains of California. Towercam, Pacific time zone.
Nature Break.
Good morning all.
155 | KernelPanic Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:41:31am |
re: #151 FrogMarch
1.2 million of productive money given to save or create a government job.
We should all be so honored to have contributed.
Meanwhile…
George Soros is poised to shell out millions to pay for anti-free market propaganda. I’m certain employment will really be improved after all of the earth’s uber left-wing mega-rich put there money in a pot and figure out more ways to destroy it all - so that glorious big daddy government can come to our rescue.
I always find it funny when free-market fans object to how a private citizen spends his own money.
156 | MrSilverDragon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:41:34am |
Good morning, folks. Another glorious day in cubeland.
157 | reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:42:57am |
re: #153 Ojoe
The rosy dawn on the burnt-over San Gabriel Mountains of California. Towercam, Pacific time zone.
Nature Break.
Good morning all.
Ah!
Looks clear and cool. If I close my eyes, I can feel it.
Good morning, Ojoe!
159 | Ojoe Fri, Oct 30, 2009 6:46:55am |
re: #157 reine.de.tout
I bet it is about 38º F.
There is a temperature posted at the bottom of the image but it is from yesterday around noon.
And good morning to you too.
BBL
162 | KenJen Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:00:10am |
re: #158 MandyManners
Sounds like Soros is going to save and create new swaths of economics to fit his agenda.
163 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:00:26am |
Judge has all of his 6500 case convictions tossed:
164 | Ojoe Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:03:05am |
It is slow here.
I am listening to recordings of Maria Callas while I am at the drafting board.
165 | Spare O'Lake Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:04:45am |
re: #164 Ojoe
It is slow here.
I am listening to recordings of Maria Callas while I am at the drafting board.
Yeah, real slow.
Could you Callas when it picks up a bit?
166 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:06:22am |
Cop walks into home, unnanounced, uninvited, unwanted, and shoots their dog.
ktnv.com
What bothers me almost as much as the cop shooting the dog is the reaction to the shooting by the neighbor. Her statement sounds like she’s saying “if the cops have to come all the way out here they may as well shoot something.” Next time, I’m hoping it’s her house they walk in and start shooting.
167 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:06:28am |
re: #152 RogueOne
Hamtramck is where my family lived when I was born. You might be a long lost cousin.
Definitely neighbors. The Hamtramck border was just a few blocks from my house. I make an annual pilgrimage to the New Palace Bakery on Fat Tuesday to pick up a couple hundred paczkis for the office.
For those who don’t know: Hamtramck was (and still is, to some extent) the center of a large Polish population, and a paczkis is a sort of filled Polish donut deep-fried in lard, traditionally offered just before Lent kicks off. The theory is that one of these ought to be enough to tide you over for the the six week fast about to ensue. They are estimated to contain around 450 calories, each, and are loaded with saturated fats and refined carbohydrates.
And I am a hero when I arrive bearing boxes of them each year.
168 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:07:44am |
re: #167 SixDegrees
Great grandpa was pure pole, came over on a boat. I always wondered how they all ended up in the middle of detroit.
169 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:10:35am |
re: #168 RogueOne
Great grandpa was pure pole, came over on a boat. I always wondered how they all ended up in the middle of detroit.
LOTS of rowing!!
170 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:11:05am |
re: #168 RogueOne
Great grandpa was pure pole, came over on a boat. I always wondered how they all ended up in the middle of detroit.
The auto industry. Excellent pay, not much in the way of skills, language or otherwise, required to get started.
Hamtramck is within walking distance of both the original Ford plant and what used to be Chrysler world headquarters, both in Highland Park. It was a magnet for people seeking the American dream from the teens up through the 60s, when things started souring.
171 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:11:06am |
re: #166 RogueOne
Something like that happened last year at the home of the mayor of the neighboring town.
His house is less than a mile from mine.
172 | KenJen Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:11:31am |
Anyone dressing up for Halloween? Im thinking of going as swine flu. Scrubs with face mask with a pig noes over it.
173 | KenJen Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:13:33am |
re: #171 Mad Al-Jaffee
I remember that. If I were on the jury they would get millions.
174 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:13:35am |
re: #172 KenJen
I’m going to try to be a zombie. I have some white and black face paint and I’ve watched some videos on how to us them for the right effect. I’m also going to make some fake blood and smear some on some old, torn clothes, and put some on my face. Instead og “Braaaiiinsss,” I’ll be chanting “Beeerrr!”
175 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:15:07am |
re: #172 KenJen
You could also wear a pig costume with wings - swine flew.
176 | Spare O'Lake Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:15:28am |
re: #166 RogueOneCop walks into home, unnanounced, uninvited, unwanted, and shoots their dog.
[Link: www.ktnv.com…]What bothers me almost as much as the cop shooting the dog is the reaction to the shooting by the neighbor. Her statement sounds like she’s saying “if the cops have to come all the way out here they may as well shoot something.” Next time, I’m hoping it’s her house they walk in and start shooting.
From the linked article:
“He says his pitbull was just doing what she was trained to do.”
Uh huh…right.
177 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:16:18am |
re: #168 RogueOne
Great grandpa was pure pole, came over on a boat. I always wondered how they all ended up in the middle of detroit.
My great grandparents and grandfather were from Eastern Europe (probably Russia or Ukraine), and they ended up in a Jewish community in Oklahoma.
178 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:16:47am |
re: #171 Mad Al-Jaffee
I remember that, Mayor Calvo. That poor mans family got screwed and if he weren’t the mayor it would have been swept under the rug. The last I heard the police report came back saying the cops did nothing wrong. What a horrible sham.
179 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:19:10am |
re: #178 RogueOne
They did plenty wrong. I can *almost* understand why they acted the way they did - if they thought they were going after some big time dealer, protocol would probably be to shoot the dogs upon raiding. They weren’t, and all they had to do was look up who lived there. Plus, they didn’t have a no-knock warrant.
180 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:20:06am |
re: #176 Spare O’Lake
a pit bull name “hazel”. the kid on the video said the dog just barked at the cop. Still, none of that matters. The officer walked into their house, unnanounced. I have 2 large dogs, if someone walks into my house unnanounced they’re dog food. It’s my house, don’t walk into my house without my permission.
181 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:20:34am |
Why’s it so quite here today? I feel like I’m in a horror movie or something. And where’s that eerie piano music coming from?
182 | Spare O'Lake Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:22:36am |
re: #172 KenJen
Anyone dressing up for Halloween? Im thinking of going as swine flu. Scrubs with face mask with a pig noes over it.
I heard Pres. Obama has been a lion a lot of the time.
183 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:23:06am |
re: #176 Spare O’Lake
I live in a good neighborhood and I have 2 dobies. I rarely lock my door. Last year someone opened my screen door and kicked in my front door. They ran into 2 startled and upset dobies and quickly changed their minds. When my spouse got home the screen door was shut, the front door broken, and nothing taken. My dogs have already earned their keep for the rest of their lives.
184 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:23:14am |
Hmmm… I was just checking my referrer logs and found a curious link coming in from Jon Snow of Channel 4 to my coverage of the latest terror attack in Peshawar this week. Didn’t know who he was until I started checking around for a bio. I guess he’s a name in the UK.
185 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:24:54am |
re: #179 Mad Al-Jaffee
Just a little bit of actual police work would have saved the 2 dogs and a lot of money and embarrassment for the police dept.
186 | reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:25:31am |
re: #172 KenJen
Anyone dressing up for Halloween? Im thinking of going as swine flu. Scrubs with face mask with a pig noes over it.
Swine flu vaccination distribution here in Louisiana - seems to be an epic fail.
Confusion reigns.
187 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:32:06am |
re: #174 Mad Al-Jaffee
My wife went to work as a zombie bride today, she looked hott. One dept all came as the swine flu, scrubs w/H1N1 nametags and snouts. Both ideas seem to be popular this year. She just sent me a load of pics.
188 | Spare O'Lake Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:32:59am |
re: #180 RogueOne
a pit bull name “hazel”. the kid on the video said the dog just barked at the cop. Still, none of that matters. The officer walked into their house, unnanounced. I have 2 large dogs, if someone walks into my house unnanounced they’re dog food. It’s my house, don’t walk into my house without my permission.
The cops were not there on a lark - they were doing their job. The kid on the video may be lying. The music may have been blasting so loud that the youts never heard the cops knocking.
But leaving aside for a moment the technical legality of the entry, do you really think the officer should have just stood there and allowed the charging pit bull to consummate its intended bloody attack?
189 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:34:51am |
re: #185 RogueOne
Just a little bit of actual police work would have saved the 2 dogs and a lot of money and embarrassment for the police dept.
I agree. Now PG County is going to lose money it can’t afford to lose in a massive lawsuit.
190 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:35:48am |
re: #172 KenJen
I’m in as balloon boy. Lots of mylar and helium.
191 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:39:08am |
re: #188 Spare O’Lake
It is not the officers job to just walk in someones home. No one reported a break-in, they reported what they thought was a prowler. He went above and beyond his legal authority and made an illegal entry into someones home and shot their dog. And yes, I’d rather the cop realize his mistake and back out rather than shoot someones pet in the face.
192 | Spare O'Lake Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:41:36am |
re: #189 Mad Al-Jaffee
I agree. Now PG County is going to lose money it can’t afford to lose in a massive lawsuit.
Why would the lawsuit be “massive” unless these folks, with the help of an ambulance-chaser, try to cash in big-time. If the entry was in fact illegal then the police should apologize and should have to pay some damages to replace the dog and something for the owner’s suffering…but such a small claim could be easily settled out of court unless the owner gets greedy or the police are unreasonable.
193 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:41:47am |
re: #188 Spare O’Lake
he illegally went into their home with his gun drawn, what if he had mistakenly shot the kid? Would you still be defending him by saying he was just doing his job? What if the kid heard the noise upstairs and came up on a stranger in his home and shot the cop? This officer was playing rambo with zero regard to the property or civil rights of the owners, he needs to go.
194 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:42:28am |
195 | Spare O'Lake Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:44:58am |
re: #193 RogueOne
he illegally went into their home with his gun drawn, what if he had mistakenly shot the kid? Would you still be defending him by saying he was just doing his job? What if the kid heard the noise upstairs and came up on a stranger in his home and shot the cop? This officer was playing rambo with zero regard to the property or civil rights of the owners, he needs to go.
You are making some factual assumptions which are probably untrue.
It’s very easy to jump to conclusions and to second guess the police.
I suggest reserving judgment.
196 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:46:40am |
re: #193 RogueOne
he illegally went into their home with his gun drawn, what if he had mistakenly shot the kid? Would you still be defending him by saying he was just doing his job? What if the kid heard the noise upstairs and came up on a stranger in his home and shot the cop? This officer was playing rambo with zero regard to the property or civil rights of the owners, he needs to go.
Not necessarily
iirc, if the police are called out on a legit “suspicion of,, ” call, and they follow the “leads” (which in this case is a reported prowler at the address) IF they knock and don’t get a response and they think something is amiss in the house (hearing music, which typically indicates someone is in there and getting no response when knocking) then they CAN enter without actual permission
197 | Mike DeGuzman Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:53:12am |
re: #120 DaddyG
Yes especially those who do not believe in evolution!
198 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:53:25am |
re: #196 sattv4u2
If it happened the way the news report says, which I know isn’t always a given, then he could not have had a reasonable suspicion that anything illegal was going on in that house. I’m also highly suspicious due to the attitude of the old white woman not liking the way her neighborhood is turning out and the ethnicity of the family who owned the home the cop intruded into. I might be crazy on that, but it smells bad to me.
199 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:53:37am |
I’ve been running through a copy of this newest proposal (HR 3962) and one of the things I find really interesting is that the progressives are crowing that this plan will pay for itself.
Well, if you call adding a 5.4 percent surcharge tax on families that make over 1 million (modified adjusted gross income) “paying for itself” (that’s going chafe the rich in Hollywood)…
If you call adding a 2.5 percent sales tax on all medical equipment “paying for itself…”
If you call taxing employers 8 percent of their total yearly payroll if their health insurance does not meet the “acceptable coverage” as set forth by the federal government “paying for itself…”
And these employer penalties WILL affect many small business. You will only escape their penalty scheme if your total yearly payroll is under 1/2 million.
If you call taxing citizens 2.5 of their yearly income (modified adjusted gross income) if they do not have any health care coverage or their health care coverage is not “acceptable coverage” as set forth by the federal government “paying for itself…”
These are only some of the taxes, penalties and additional NEWthat are in this proposal that citizens will pay for so the federal government can boast that this bill will “pay for itself.”
If you consider taking money from taxpayers in this manner as “paying for itself,” I would like to introduce you to MY PLAN, whereas I live off off of your income for the rest of my life.
201 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:54:47am |
re: #199 Walter L. Newton
Mornin walter, how’d the snow storm end up? I was listening to kbpi yesterday and they were talking about how treacherous it was in town.
202 | Spare O'Lake Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:55:05am |
re: #198 RogueOne
If it happened the way the news report says, which I know isn’t always a given, then he could not have had a reasonable suspicion that anything illegal was going on in that house. I’m also highly suspicious due to the attitude of the old white woman not liking the way her neighborhood is turning out and the ethnicity of the family who owned the home the cop intruded into. I might be crazy on that, but it smells bad to me.
You are not crazy…just prejudiced.
203 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:55:32am |
re: #202 Spare O’Lake
You caught me, I don’t like white people. ;)
204 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:56:46am |
re: #198 RogueOne
If it happened the way the news report says, which I know isn’t always a given, then he could not have had a reasonable suspicion that anything illegal was going on in that house. I’m also highly suspicious due to the attitude of the old white woman not liking the way her neighborhood is turning out and the ethnicity of the family who owned the home the cop intruded into. I might be crazy on that, but it smells bad to me.
A) report of a prowler
B) music on in the house (indicatation of someone being there
C) no answer at the door (could be indication that the resident is or has been a victim of foul play from the reported prowler
EQUALS
reasonable entry by the police
205 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:57:59am |
re: #192 Spare O’Lake
Why would the lawsuit be “massive” unless these folks, with the help of an ambulance-chaser, try to cash in big-time. If the entry was in fact illegal then the police should apologize and should have to pay some damages to replace the dog and something for the owner’s suffering…but such a small claim could be easily settled out of court unless the owner gets greedy or the police are unreasonable.
They stormed in without the proper warrant, shot and killed the dogs, and cuffed and detained everyone in the house (including an elderly woman.) I’m not a lawyer, but it looks like they have grounds for a suit.
206 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:01:08am |
I needed a guitar wake up this morning. Anyone else? I suggest this interesting track from Orinanthi and Steve Vai. This girl was supposed to back Michael Jackson on the comeback tour. Started at 6 years old…
3rd track down the embedded playlist
“Highly Strung Duet”.
myspace.com
207 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:02:02am |
re: #205 Mad Al-Jaffee
Please see 196 and 204
ALSO
from the report
neighbor Joann Griffith.
Griffith says burglars and other criminals have been known to come over a nearby freeway wall to target homes in the neighborhood
Seems as if the police have been in the neighborhood before, so they would find it reasonable that something nefarious could be going on
208 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:02:25am |
re: #204 sattv4u2
If the officer heard music then how do you get to reasonable suspicion? Do most home invaders turn on the stereo for backround music while they load shit up? The report was of a “prowler” not a break-in. 2nd, I don’t have to answer my door when a cop knocks, nor do I have to speak to him or let him in unless he has a warrant. That doesn’t give an officer the authority to just walk in and shoot my dogs.
209 | Mike DeGuzman Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:03:46am |
re: #163 RogueOne
Judge has all of his 6500 case convictions tossed:
[Link: www.timesleader.com…]
A corrupt judge receiving illegal payments on the side!
210 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:03:54am |
re: #207 sattv4u2
You guys are talking about two different issues. We were also talking about what happened to Mayor Calvo, swat team storms the house, shoots his dogs while they’re trying to run away, then force everyone on the floor with guns in their faces.
211 | reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:05:05am |
re: #208 RogueOne
If the officer heard music then how do you get to reasonable suspicion? Do most home invaders turn on the stereo for backround music while they load shit up? The report was of a “prowler” not a break-in. 2nd, I don’t have to answer my door when a cop knocks, nor do I have to speak to him or let him in unless he has a warrant. That doesn’t give an officer the authority to just walk in and shoot my dogs.
I ought to stay out of this …
If I’m watching TV or playing music and someone breaks into my house and injures or kills me, and the cops show up and hear the music or the TV but get no response from me to knocking on the door because I’m on the floor injured or dead, I damn well HOPE they break into my house to see what’s going on.
that’s how you get to reasonable suspicion.
212 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:05:11am |
re: #199 Walter L. Newton
Morning Walter! Thanks for slogging through the bill. For some odd reason, my lovely bride wanted some quality time last night, so I haven’t had a chance to get into it yet.
Great call on the “pay for itself” observations! Here’s one that won’t show up (since it’s slotted for different legislation):
The $1.055 trillion estimate also does not include $245 billion needed to stop Medicare payments to doctors from decreasing, which the House plans to address through separate legislation introduced Thursday.
Hmm, wonder where that money is going to come from?
213 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:07:17am |
re: #208 RogueOne
Been reading through. Looks more like an error in judgment or policy than outright legal wrongs. SWAT and Police policy on threatening dogs is generally harsh. The policy is human safety first, so the dog can get shot for attacking. Felony entry is always a violent entry. “Reasonable” anything = wide latitude.
Nobody trains their dog to ignore an intruder, not even one with a badge. Probably not even possible.
214 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:10:05am |
re: #208 RogueOne
If the officer heard music then how do you get to reasonable suspicion? Do most home invaders turn on the stereo for backround music while they load shit up
VERY easy
If you were home with the stereo on and prowlers came in and had you under gunpoint/ knifepoint or other do you think they would turn the stereo OFF on the chance that IF you were to yell/ scream someone would be alerted? No,, they would leave the music on while they loaded shit up
Now, you not being able to answer a knock on the door, and the prowler being unwilling too coupled with the other factors I enumerated above gives the cops “reasonable suspicion”
215 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:10:22am |
re: #199 Walter L. Newton
No, no, no MY PLAN where I live off yours… LOL
Nice summation Walter! Thanks for the work, I’m following closely. This is as big a data absorption task as AGW. Whew!
216 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:11:00am |
re: #211 reine.de.tout
if there is a “reasonable suspicion” you have a point, I don’t think in this case they could reach that threashold. Once the officer opened the door and ran into the family dog, he should have known his “suspicion” was incorrect and left.
217 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:11:20am |
re: #211 reine.de.tout
Agreed ( as stated in my 196 and 204)
218 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:11:50am |
re: #216 RogueOne
if there is a “reasonable suspicion” you have a point, I don’t think in this case they could reach that threashold. Once the officer opened the door and ran into the family dog, he should have known his “suspicion” was incorrect and left.
Kinda hard to “leave” with a pit bull biting your ass!
219 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:12:29am |
I just found out I have an additional vacation day this year - they’re giving us Veteran’s Day! That’s two holidays next month.
220 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:13:22am |
222 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:15:19am |
re: #214 sattv4u2
I feel like I’m beating a dead horse here but think about what you just said, by not answering a knock on your door that automatically gives the police the authority to enter your home with weapons drawn. I could not disagree more strongly, even if the officer had the purest intentions (which I don’t necessarily believe) you still have rights the officer purposely chose to ignore in the hopes of achieving a “greater good”. That isn’t in their job description, they should have been more concerned with the families property rights. This time it was their dog, what if it had been a family member instead?
223 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:16:07am |
re: #201 RogueOne
Mornin walter, how’d the snow storm end up? I was listening to kbpi yesterday and they were talking about how treacherous it was in town.
Snow stopped around 6:00 pm last night. We got 3 feet up here, Denver are surrounding areas from under 10 inches up to 2 feet, depending where in town.
I have to go down hill for the first time this week, in a few hours, my work is on the weekends.
My girlfriend made it down to work this morning, so I guess it’s not impossible.
I will have to dig my car out of 3 feet of snow… if i can find it.
224 | reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:16:13am |
re: #219 Mad Al-Jaffee
I just found out I have an additional vacation day this year - they’re giving us Veteran’s Day! That’s two holidays next month.
Wow!
That’s always nice news!
In other news, I’m still laughing about these idiots from yesterday’s news.
In an attempt to disguise themselves, they painted their faces WITH PERMANENT MARKER. You can’t make this stuff up.
225 | Ojoe Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:16:42am |
re: #199 Walter L. Newton
If you call taxing citizens 2.5 of their yearly income (modified adjusted gross income) if they do not have any health care coverage or their health care coverage is not “acceptable coverage” as set forth by the federal government “paying for itself…”
This provision rankles me no end as it is a direct assault on personal freedom.
227 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:17:32am |
re: #224 reine.de.tout
In other news, I’m still laughing about these idiots from yesterday’s news.
In an attempt to disguise themselves, they painted their faces WITH PERMANENT MARKER. You can’t make this stuff up.
There was a bit on Red Eye about them last night. Gutfeld’s comment was something like, “The moral here? Don’t commit crimes when you’re high.”
229 | FrogMarch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:19:18am |
re: #199 Walter L. Newton
It’s not about solving real health care issues - it’s about redistributing wealth and controlling people with more taxes and regulations.
And - the democrats are lying when they say it’s deficit neutral. But then - we must learn to love the lie.
230 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:19:28am |
re: #222 RogueOne
I feel like I’m beating a dead horse here but think about what you just said, by not answering a knock on your door that automatically gives the police the authority to enter your home with weapons drawn.
Swingandamiss!
Problem is,, thats NOT what I said
It’s the totallity of the situation
Once again, the police weren’t randomely walking up to doors knocking on them to see if someone would answer. They were called out on a SUSPICIOUS/ PROWLER call
Upon arriving they had reason to beleive someone WAS in the house (music playing) and had further reason to beleive they could have been i jeapordy (no response)
231 | albusteve Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:20:28am |
re: #225 Ojoe
This provision rankles me no end as it is a direct assault on personal freedom.
the entire bill is an assault, not only on personal freedom, but logical sensibilities…yet people here will defend it, just like the stimulus fiasco…funny that eh?
232 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:21:26am |
re: #223 Walter L. Newton
Snow stopped around 6:00 pm last night. We got 3 feet up here, Denver are surrounding areas from under 10 inches up to 2 feet, depending where in town.
I have to go down hill for the first time this week, in a few hours, my work is on the weekends.
My girlfriend made it down to work this morning, so I guess it’s not impossible.
I will have to dig my car out of 3 feet of snow… if i can find it.
Do what so many people around here do: brush off a six inch wide peephole on your front windshield and go, under the assumption that everyone else will simply get out of your way and that the snow will eventually blow off once you get up to speed.
What could possibly go wrong?
233 | gregb Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:22:19am |
re: #222 RogueOne
In a very rare man bites dog, we had just this week 3 criminals attempt a home invasion on a police officer’s home.
It freaked the whole neighborhood out. We haven’t had any crime here for ages.
234 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:25:03am |
re: #229 FrogMarch
It’s not about solving real health care issues - it’s about redistributing wealth and controlling people with more taxes and regulations.
And - the democrats are lying when they say it’s deficit neutral. But then - we must learn to love the lie.
Hi Frog! I’m sure I sound like a broken record, but you’re right. It’s not about health CARE, it’s about providing health INSURANCE. Without a parallel effort to bring about reform in how care is provided, it’s just more of what you cite.
For example, from the article I linked above:
An expansion in eligibility rules for the Medicaid program would bring an additional 15 million enrollees to Medicaid by 2019, CBO said.
Medicaid is, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt. Where’s the money going to come from for that. To add 15 million people to a program while saying it’s not going to increase costs/deficits, etc. is insanity.
235 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:25:09am |
re: #211 reine.de.tout
re: #228 RogueOne
re: #218 sattv4u2
Can you imagine the furor if it was an attacked & injured elderly lady and the cops walked off without investigating? Then she gets found by a relative days later far too late?
Shoe on other foot-Here in California we had a SWAT entry go very badly at a drug house. The dog inside was a fighting dog trained to attack intruders. Long story short, the cop shot himself and a teammate trying to shoot this dog that had hold of his thigh well up near the crotch. Blood panic ensued. The cops auto gun was too long so the shots went all over. Several cops fired their guns. These details never made the news so I have no link. But I used to shoot/compete with one of the team members who was further back in the entry stack unhurt.
236 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:25:39am |
re: #231 albusteve
the entire bill is an assault, not only on personal freedom, but logical sensibilities…yet
peopleliberals and progressives here will defend it, just like the stimulus fiasco…funny that eh?
ftfy
//
237 | wrenchwench Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:26:13am |
re: #233 gregb
In a very rare man bites dog, we had just this week 3 criminals attempt a home invasion on a police officer’s home.
It freaked the whole neighborhood out. We haven’t had any crime here for ages.
[Link: www.ocregister.com…]
You said you left Fullerton… you didn’t go very far, did you?
:)
238 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:26:16am |
re: #199 Walter L. Newton
If you call adding a 2.5 percent sales tax on all medical equipment “paying for itself…”
Ah, a sales tax hike on medical equipment, that includes everything from pacemakers to stents. A pacemaker could be $1,000 or more. Adding another 2.5% to the cost makes this cheaper how?
To be absolutely clear, it doesn’t. It adds to the cost, which has to be picked up by someone (the user). It makes health care more expensive, which is why states are loath to impose sales tax on those items (though some do because they’re trying to balance their budgets and figure that a random hit on someone needing durable medical equipment isn’t going to raise eyebrows).
I suspect Congress figures that people aren’t going to notice a sales tax hit on those items because not everyone needs a pacemaker or a stent during their lifetime.
If you call taxing citizens 2.5 of their yearly income (modified adjusted gross income) if they do not have any health care coverage or their health care coverage is not “acceptable coverage” as set forth by the federal government “paying for itself…”
The penalty provisions are a tax, and there’s no way around it. You cannot opt out of this mess without getting taxed for the privilege.
I also suspect that the number of people who will be penalized will fall squarely within the middle class and among those who are least likely to need health care coverage - healthy young people. They are less likely to have chronic conditions that need constant medical attention.
In other words, it violates Obama’s promises of not raising taxes on the middle class, but this proposal (like the Baucus plan and HR3200 before it, are crammed with tax and spend provisions).
Moreover, while the CBO now says that this proposal will not increase the deficit over the 10 year period, I wonder if they goosed their assumptions to make that happen, seeing how everyone realized that the CBO called the first crack at this bill a mess.
239 | albusteve Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:26:53am |
re: #234 subsailor68
Hi Frog! I’m sure I sound like a broken record, but you’re right. It’s not about health CARE, it’s about providing health INSURANCE. Without a parallel effort to bring about reform in how care is provided, it’s just more of what you cite.
For example, from the article I linked above:
An expansion in eligibility rules for the Medicaid program would bring an additional 15 million enrollees to Medicaid by 2019, CBO said.
Medicaid is, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt. Where’s the money going to come from for that. To add 15 million people to a program while saying it’s not going to increase costs/deficits, etc. is insanity.
weird huh?…it’s a different world for liberals
240 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:27:05am |
re: #235 Rightwingconspirator
an attacked & injured elderly lady and the cops walked off without investigating
GREAT point
“Well sargeant, you see, officer Jones and I walked up to the door, heard music, knocked, didn’t get a response so we left!”
241 | gregb Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:27:18am |
re: #237 wrenchwench
You said you left Fullerton… you didn’t go very far, did you?
:)
Not far at all…Irvine, HB, Tustin, YL. I’m just an Orange County boy at heart. My great grandparents were orange ranchers.
242 | reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:28:21am |
re: #235 Rightwingconspirator
re: #228 RogueOne
re: #218 sattv4u2Can you imagine the furor if it was an attacked & injured elderly lady and the cops walked off without investigating? Then she gets found by a relative days later far too late?
…
Yes, you see in my case, the injured little old lady would be ME.
And if my dog tried to “protect” the house (and me) by attacking the cops, which could happen, then as much as I love my dog, I would hope the cops would do whatever they need to do to make sure I get the attention I need.
243 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:28:24am |
re: #199 Walter L. Newton
I’m not going to down-ding you but I am going to disagree with what appears to be either a disingenuous or ignorant argument. “Paying for itself” means it is not an unfunded mandate. It means that revenue sources - fees, taxes or whatever - are specifically identified and are expected to be equal to the cost of making the bill happen.
Object to the bill if you wish. Object to the actual taxes and fees if you wish. I’ve no philosophical objection to either even though I support the concept and much of the bill’s details, and believe that you have to pay for what you’re going to get. But I ask that you not make these types of objections to the bill - they smack of what I hear from teabaggers around the nation.
244 | FrogMarch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:29:10am |
re: #234 subsailor68
Hi Frog! I’m sure I sound like a broken record, but you’re right. It’s not about health CARE, it’s about providing health INSURANCE. Without a parallel effort to bring about reform in how care is provided, it’s just more of what you cite.
For example, from the article I linked above:
An expansion in eligibility rules for the Medicaid program would bring an additional 15 million enrollees to Medicaid by 2019, CBO said.
Medicaid is, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt. Where’s the money going to come from for that. To add 15 million people to a program while saying it’s not going to increase costs/deficits, etc. is insanity.
Hi! It is insanity. But no matter - these holy and precious democrats know what is best for us - and we must not question any of it. “The time for talk is over.”
245 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:29:17am |
re: #237 wrenchwench
Somebody should work that into a cop show… NCIS “My Bedroom”
246 | wrenchwench Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:29:59am |
re: #241 gregb
Not far at all…Irvine, HB, Tustin, YL. I’m just an Orange County boy at heart. My great grandparents were orange ranchers.
An OC boy with roots!
247 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:30:19am |
re: #242 reine.de.tout
And we all love our pets… Profoundly.
248 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:30:38am |
re: #230 sattv4u2
Upon arriving they had reason to beleive someone WAS in the house (music playing) and had further reason to beleive they could have been i jeapordy (no response)
If the officer heard the music, he had reason to believe someone was in the house, but no reason to believe it was someone who wasn’t supposed to be there. Not getting an answer at the door isn’t good enough to walk in on his own. When the officer walked in HE was the intruder. if he wanted to do more invetigating by wandering around the property thats different, instead he chose to walk into someones home without the authority to do so. It never occured to him that he might be violating someones rights, because he didn’t care.
We obviously are going to have to just disagree on this issue. Personally I don’t want cops walking into my house without a warrant, ever.
249 | reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:31:06am |
250 | MrSilverDragon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:31:13am |
re: #247 Rightwingconspirator
And we all love our pets… Profoundly.
Especially with some teriyaki, or a sweet glaze.
/it’s been one of those mornings.
251 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:32:15am |
re: #243 kirkspencer
“Pay for itself with savings” is what I have heard. That would not mean new taxes. Paying for itself WITH new taxes” is what we seem to have, but not what the advocates are willing to say out loud.
252 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:33:08am |
re: #248 RogueOne
If the officer heard the music, he had reason to believe someone was in the house, but no reason to believe it was someone who wasn’t supposed to be there. Not getting an answer at the door isn’t good enough to walk in on his own. When the officer walked in HE was the intruder. if he wanted to do more invetigating by wandering around the property thats different, instead he chose to walk into someones home without the authority to do so. It never occured to him that he might be violating someones rights, because he didn’t care.
We obviously are going to have to just disagree on this issue. Personally I don’t want cops walking into my house without a warrant, ever.
It’d be different if he heard screams for help coming from inside though. In that case I certainly do want them in there without a warrant.
But how many burglars play music while they work? It doesn’t seem like good judgement there, IMO.
253 | albusteve Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:34:01am |
re: #243 kirkspencer
I’m not going to down-ding you but I am going to disagree with what appears to be either a disingenuous or ignorant argument. “Paying for itself” means it is not an unfunded mandate. It means that revenue sources - fees, taxes or whatever - are specifically identified and are expected to be equal to the cost of making the bill happen.
Object to the bill if you wish. Object to the actual taxes and fees if you wish. I’ve no philosophical objection to either even though I support the concept and much of the bill’s details, and believe that you have to pay for what you’re going to get. But I ask that you not make these types of objections to the bill - they smack of what I hear from teabaggers around the nation.
what if I asked you not to post anymore?…Charles decides what is appropriate or not…quit telling others what to post
254 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:34:40am |
re: #243 kirkspencer
I’m not going to down-ding you but I am going to disagree with what appears to be either a disingenuous or ignorant argument. “Paying for itself” means it is not an unfunded mandate. It means that revenue sources - fees, taxes or whatever - are specifically identified and are expected to be equal to the cost of making the bill happen.
Object to the bill if you wish. Object to the actual taxes and fees if you wish. I’ve no philosophical objection to either even though I support the concept and much of the bill’s details, and believe that you have to pay for what you’re going to get. But I ask that you not make these types of objections to the bill - they smack of what I hear from teabaggers around the nation.
Paying for itself would be “I want insurance, I pay a premium and get service, if I don’t want health insurance I pay NOTHING. That’s paying for itself.
It’s called business, capitalism, private industry.
Have you read the current proposal? If not, arguing with me about this is no better than our congress critters who are fining to vote on something that they have no idea what it contains.
I’ve read a lot of it already, and everything I posted above was from my own pen, from my own research.
So, get back to me after you’ve read this.
255 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:35:35am |
re: #235 Rightwingconspirator
Over the last couple of decades police depts have moved to a more aggressive role than I think is generally necessary. It puts the officers and civilians lives in an unecessary risk. SWAT team usage has gotten completely out of control, bungled raids are almost a daily story.
256 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:35:36am |
re: #238 lawhawk
Moreover, while the CBO now says that this proposal will not increase the deficit over the 10 year period, I wonder if they goosed their assumptions to make that happen, seeing how everyone realized that the CBO called the first crack at this bill a mess.
It looks as though what has happened is that Congress has provided funding for the bill by scattering a plethora of new taxes and fees throughout it’s hundreds of pages, in an attempt to hide the real costs from anyone casually perusing it.
I also note that the bill’s alleged 2.5% AGI tax on individuals represents a 25% increase over what I am currently paying out-of-pocket for health care coverage, making it difficult for me to see why this is a good thing. Given that roughly 10% - 15% of the population is uninsured - if you accept the Administration’s figures - why would it require a 25% increase in payments by those already covered to provide coverage for that small fraction of the population?
257 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:35:37am |
258 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:35:49am |
re: #243 kirkspencer
It means that revenue sources - fees, taxes or whatever - are specifically identified and are expected to be equal to the cost of making the bill happen.
Then it’s not “paying for itself”, which would mean it’s revenue neutral (no new sources of funding , or in other words paid for by monies they ((the gov’t)) already has)
“pay for itself” is a word game the writers of the bill are using, much in the way they are NOT using GOV’T OPTION (or mandate)
259 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:36:41am |
Happy Halloween and enjoy this picture:
260 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:36:55am |
re: #243 kirkspencer
[snip]
But I ask that you not make these types of objections to the bill - they smack of what I hear from teabaggers around the nation.
And don’t tell me what to say or not to say… I don’t even know shit about the tea people, don’t care… your statement smacks of totalitarianism… I can fucking say what I want.
261 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:37:34am |
re: #257 Rightwingconspirator
I read that the other day, what a dick. I bet the chainsaw maniac pee’d a little. Drunk cops+guns=bad stuff.
262 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:37:36am |
re: #252 iceweasel
It’d be different if he heard screams for help coming from inside though. In that case I certainly do want them in there without a warrant.
But how many burglars play music while they work? It doesn’t seem like good judgement there, IMO.
As I stated above. If a prowler enters your house with music already plating and holds you under duress (gunpoint, knifepoint, or shear numbers) they are not going to turn OFF the music on the chance you may scream
263 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:38:25am |
re: #243 kirkspencer
I’m not going to down-ding you but I am going to disagree with what appears to be either a disingenuous or ignorant argument. “Paying for itself” means it is not an unfunded mandate. It means that revenue sources - fees, taxes or whatever - are specifically identified and are expected to be equal to the cost of making the bill happen.
Object to the bill if you wish. Object to the actual taxes and fees if you wish. I’ve no philosophical objection to either even though I support the concept and much of the bill’s details, and believe that you have to pay for what you’re going to get. But I ask that you not make these types of objections to the bill - they smack of what I hear from teabaggers around the nation.
Hi kirkspencer! I’m not sure I can agree with your observation about this not being an “unfunded mandate”. That doesn’t seem to be the point. Congress could come up with a program that requires all citizens to be taxed at 90 percent of their income, and defend it by saying “hey, it’s not an unfunded mandate. The taxes raised to pay for this program fully fund it, and make it both revenue and deficit neutral. And you still have 10 percent of your income to spend as you wish.”
;-)
264 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:40:17am |
re: #255 RogueOne
Over the last couple of decades police depts have moved to a more aggressive role than I think is generally necessary. It puts the officers and civilians lives in an unecessary risk. SWAT team usage has gotten completely out of control, bungled raids are almost a daily story.
[Link: www.cato.org…]
[Link: www.cato.org…]
Not to mention the growing use of tasers in conditions that hardly seem to warrant them. In this case, a 16 year old boy fell off an overpass and broke his back. When the cops arrived, they tasered him 19 times— for ‘disobeying the order to stand up’.
I haven’t been following the use of tasers but I know that many people have, and it’s not pretty.
265 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:40:24am |
re: #252 iceweasel
If these were isolated incidents I might not be so worked up about it, but it’s not:
266 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:40:40am |
re: #243 kirkspencer
It isn’t an unfunded mandate because the bill causes for a myriad of taxes, fees, and penalties to be imposed for compliance purposes.
An unfunded mandate is one where the government requires action, but provides no or limited funding to make it happen.
At no time have I heard anyone complain that this bill would be an unfunded mandate; the complaint is that the bill is rife with taxes and fees that hit everyone and everything, including the very items that the Democrats complain are too expensive (such as the tax on medical equipment).
The bill does not address the out of control costs, and instead fancies itself as balancing its costs-revenues through higher taxes and fees. It is a classic tax and spend program in that regard. So, when revenues from those taxes and fees fall short - as they inevitably do - the supposedly balanced health care plan will begin running deficits, costing far more than proponents anticipated.
Mind you, the proponents of Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security all said that their programs would be revenue neutral or save money over the long run, and yet here we are in 2009 and all three are running deficits that require immediate attention - and have for years because difficult decisions over how to properly fund them have been put off or drastically scaled back to tide the problem over to someone else to figure out.
In fact, if you want a prime example of a program that shows out of control spending in action, look no further than President Bush’s prescription drug program; which now costs billions more and isn’t saving money.
267 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:42:12am |
re: #251 Rightwingconspirator
You’ve heard “from saving” from whom? The congress-critters aren’t saying that, they’re just saying it’s revenue neutral. Yes there are activists being ignorant and stupid, but I can point to them on all sides of this argument.
Quite simply my objection was because I’ve come to expect better on this list.
268 | Sloppy Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:42:53am |
Re: Dogs and crime
I was a police reporter many years ago when our department got its first K-9 cops. Worked fine until one of the highly trained German shepherds went on a call with his human partner, was menaced by a hissing cat, and beat a hasty retreat to the cruiser. Soon thereafter the dog rejoined civilian life.
269 | Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:43:51am |
re: #238 lawhawk
From my observation every time they add a new special tax the end result is higher costs to cover increased administration to handle the new form requirements. It also adds an additional burden to accounting costs. In other words it will likely be another form and another office in DC or Ogden, UT and additional civil serviants to manage the government side of things. So that 1000 dollar pacemaker will be and additional $25 for the tax plus another $25 in additional private administrative costs. Then, you add another $100 for the federal government to collect and/or administer those taxes. +/-
270 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:44:14am |
re: #264 iceweasel
a 16 year old boy fell off an overpass and broke his back. When the cops arrived, they tasered him 19 times— for ‘disobeying the order to stand up’.
I remember that one too. It would be hilarious if we were talking about Reno 911, but sadly we aren’t.
271 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:44:47am |
re: #267 kirkspencer
You’ve heard “from saving” from whom? The congress-critters aren’t saying that, they’re just saying it’s revenue neutral. Yes there are activists being ignorant and stupid, but I can point to them on all sides of this argument.
Quite simply my objection was because I’ve come to expect better on this list.
Personally, I give a lot of kudos to Walter for reading the bill and reporting back to us. He’s telling us things that are rarely making it into the media, and for that his work alone is worthy. Yes, the terminology could have been better, but very few people are reading the bill, and so he is providing a valuable service.
272 | albusteve Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:45:20am |
somebody wake me up when they dissect the health/insurance bill and get to the part about defensive medicine and tort reform…I’m getting bored with obvious power grabs
273 | Baier Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:45:24am |
If universal healthcare is passed, my wife and I intend to retire in five years, buy a big house and be as self-sufficient as possible. Let the suckers work for a living.
274 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:46:18am |
re: #273 Baier
If universal healthcare is passed, my wife and I intend to retire in five years, buy a big house and be as self-sufficient as possible. Let the suckers work for a living.
I wish I could retire that soon, but I’m going to be in this for at least another fifteen years.
275 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:47:50am |
re: #270 RogueOne
I remember that one too. It would be hilarious if we were talking about Reno 911, but sadly we aren’t.
Yes. Digby over at Hullaballoo has been tracking taser misuse for a while. That was one of the worst stories I’ve seen, but sadly there have been many bad ones.
I had no idea that puppycide was so widespread though. ugh.
276 | reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:48:03am |
re: #271 vxbush
Personally, I give a lot of kudos to Walter for reading the bill and reporting back to us. He’s telling us things that are rarely making it into the media, and for that his work alone is worthy. Yes, the terminology could have been better, but very few people are reading the bill, and so he is providing a valuable service.
vx, yes, kudos to Walter.
Mr. Spencer says:
re: #267 kirkspencer
…
Quite simply my objection was because I’ve come to expect better on this list.
Can’t get much better, imo, than a person willing to spend their time reading through the mess and reporting back what they’ve seen.
277 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:48:40am |
re: #268 Sloppy
Re: Dogs and crime
I was a police reporter many years ago when our department got its first K-9 cops. Worked fine until one of the highly trained German shepherds went on a call with his human partner, was menaced by a hissing cat, and beat a hasty retreat to the cruiser. Soon thereafter the dog rejoined civilian life.
Reminds me of this K9 cop
stupidvideos.com
278 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:48:57am |
re: #267 kirkspencer
You’ve heard “from saving” from whom? The congress-critters aren’t saying that, they’re just saying it’s revenue neutral. Yes there are activists being ignorant and stupid, but I can point to them on all sides of this argument.
Quite simply my objection was because I’ve come to expect better on this list.
Actually, the “from savings” has been a significant selling point used by both House and Senate supporters. From the article I linked above, CBO has addressed these claims:
The costs of the bill are fully offset by cuts to existing spending programs— including the Medicare Advantage and other programs—saving $426 billion through 2019
CBO took the claims of “savings by cutting existing spending” into account - which they did because that was part of the bill. But, as Walter pointed out from his reading, the savings aren’t, by themselves, enough. Taxes and fees are also included to make the bill revenue/deficit neutral.
279 | albusteve Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:50:15am |
re: #276 reine.de.tout
Can’t get much better, imo, than a person willing to spend their time reading through the mess and reporting back what they’ve seen.
I used to be as nice as you are…back in the old days
280 | lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:50:27am |
re: #264 iceweasel
Not to mention the growing use of tasers in conditions that hardly seem to warrant them. In this case, a 16 year old boy fell off an overpass and broke his back. When the cops arrived, they tasered him 19 times— for ‘disobeying the order to stand up’.
I haven’t been following the use of tasers but I know that many people have, and it’s not pretty.
When you quote you should have stated the rest of the story
“He refused to comply with the officers and so the officers had to deploy their Tasers in order to subdue him. He is making incoherent statements; he’s also making statements such as, ‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that. So there was cause for concern to the officers,” said Ozark Police Capt. Thomas Rousset.
Police say although there are several unanswered questions; the reason for the use of a stun gun is not one of them.
“It’s a big concern for the officers to keep this guy out of traffic, to keep him from getting hurt,” said Rousset. “
281 | Baier Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:51:36am |
re: #274 vxbush
I wish I could retire that soon, but I’m going to be in this for at least another fifteen years.
We’ve been working and saving like crazy. We live across the street from some projects in NYC and we see seeming healthy men and women doing nothing all day. Meanwhile the PJs have exercise equipment, a health clinic, indoor basketball courts. Between income, sales, and real estate taxes we turn over half our income. 50% of Americans will not be required to pay federal taxes this year! I’m beginning to feel taken advantage of.
282 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:51:59am |
re: #271 vxbush
Personally, I give a lot of kudos to Walter for reading the bill and reporting back to us. He’s telling us things that are rarely making it into the media, and for that his work alone is worthy. Yes, the terminology could have been better, but very few people are reading the bill, and so he is providing a valuable service.
Slight correction. I have not read the WHOLE bill, all 1990 pages. I have notes I made from the last house bill (HR 3200) and I zeroed in on certain areas I was interested in.
I will be reading as much as I can, as the days go on.
I can tell you some added details. There is a “modified” public option, in the sense that they are expanding Medicare, that will be the public option. It’s called “Public Health Insurance Option” and it starts at Sec. 321 (page 211).
There is also 700 plus pages with changes and modifications to Medicare.
The is a section on “Application and Verification of Requirement of Citizenship or Lawful Presence in the United States” (page 228). This seems to cover the illegal alien concerns that people had. Looking over this section, it may actually upset some ACLU types, but there is also language that could be considered possible “weasel” words (apologies to Iceweasel who is down dinging my health care posts)…
And there is a section on abortion (Sec. 222 page 109), but it will take someone like Lawhawk to parse this language, it looks like it says no funding, unless, yes funding… I can’t make head or tails out of it.
283 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:51:59am |
re: #275 iceweasel
I might have a bit of a man-crush on this guy:
reason.com
I almost always disagree with his foreign policy takes, but he’s done such a good job reporting on systematic abuse and corruption I give him a pass.
284 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:52:45am |
Meanwhile, Democrats are also playing games with the cost. The CBO says that the cost for this program isn’t the $897 billion claimed, but $1.01 trillion.
Oh, and this wouldn’t guarantee universal coverage either. It would increase coverage from 85% to 96%.
And none of that counts how Democrats plan on separately dealing with a $245 billion proposal to deal with Medicare payments to doctors.
In other words, the real costs are at least $1.246 trillion, and will almost certainly be far higher than that - and what exactly are we getting for the money particularly when higher taxes and fees are going to be imposed to make this happen.
285 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:52:45am |
re: #273 Baier
If universal healthcare is passed, my wife and I intend to retire in five years, buy a big house and be as self-sufficient as possible. Let the suckers work for a living.
Your decision on retirement is based on the passage of a particular legislative agenda? How does that make any sense? And what does the size of your house have to do with self-sufficiency?
286 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:52:46am |
re: #281 Baier
We’ve been working and saving like crazy. We live across the street from some projects in NYC and we see seeming healthy men and women doing nothing all day. Meanwhile the PJs have exercise equipment, a health clinic, indoor basketball courts. Between income, sales, and real estate taxes we turn over half our income. 50% of Americans will not be required to pay federal taxes this year! I’m beginning to feel taken advantage of.
And for good reason. I’m one of the folks who ends up paying nothing because of all the medical costs in my household. I’m not saying that’s right, but I would appreciate having the health instead.
287 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:53:17am |
re: #280 lrsshadow
He said those things acccording to the officers involved. The same officers who just tased a guy with a broken back 19 times. You really want to take their word for it?
288 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:53:20am |
re: #258 sattv4u2
“pay for itself” is a word game the writers of the bill are using, much in the way they are NOT using GOV’T OPTION (or mandate)
You mean the way that Pelosi has started to refer to the public plan as “consumer option”?
*spit*
289 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:55:21am |
re: #280 lrsshadow
When you quote you should have stated the rest of the story
“He refused to comply with the officers and so the officers had to deploy their Tasers in order to subdue him. He is making incoherent statements; he’s also making statements such as, ‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that. So there was cause for concern to the officers,” said Ozark Police Capt. Thomas Rousset.
Police say although there are several unanswered questions; the reason for the use of a stun gun is not one of them.
“It’s a big concern for the officers to keep this guy out of traffic, to keep him from getting hurt,” said Rousset. “
I linked the story for that reason— so people could read it.
Those are the officers explanations after the fact. The fact is, they tasered a kid with a broken back—- who was incapable of standing up — 19 times.
Let’s suppose for argument’s sake that what the officers claim was true— this kid was lying there saying things like ‘shoot cops’.
Doesn’t it still seem a little excessive to you that he’d be tasered 19 times? When he couldn’t even stand? I think most cops have better training than that, and can subdue a 16 year old with a broken back with less force.
In any case, unfortunately that’s only one of many stories.
290 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:56:22am |
re: #284 lawhawk
Meanwhile, Democrats are also playing games with the cost. The CBO says that the cost for this program isn’t the $897 billion claimed, but $1.01 trillion.
Oh, and this wouldn’t guarantee universal coverage either. It would increase coverage from 85% to 96%.
And none of that counts how Democrats plan on separately dealing with a $245 billion proposal to deal with Medicare payments to doctors.
In other words, the real costs are at least $1.246 trillion, and will almost certainly be far higher than that - and what exactly are we getting for the money particularly when higher taxes and fees are going to be imposed to make this happen.
Morning lawhawk! Hope you’re doing great today. Yep, that’s the article I was citing above. As usual, you’ve hit the main points on the nose. Real cost of $1.246 trillion - and that’s CBO scoring as of now. As you pointed out above, Medicare and Medicaid are prime examples of how things can quickly get out of hand. It is a cause for concern, imho.
291 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:56:46am |
re: #267 kirkspencer
You’ve heard “from saving” from whom? The congress-critters aren’t saying that, they’re just saying it’s revenue neutral. Yes there are activists being ignorant and stupid, but I can point to them on all sides of this argument.
Quite simply my objection was because I’ve come to expect better on this list.
Who is this jerk who is telling me what to say and what not to say? I’ve come to expect better of on this “list.”
292 | Baier Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:56:48am |
re: #286 vxbush
And for good reason. I’m one of the folks who ends up paying nothing because of all the medical costs in my household. I’m not saying that’s right, but I would appreciate having the health instead.
I hope that we can come up with a reasonable health care reform so people don’t go broke because of the costs.
293 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:57:22am |
re: #282 Walter L. Newton
Slight correction. I have not read the WHOLE bill, all 1990 pages. I have notes I made from the last house bill (HR 3200) and I zeroed in on certain areas I was interested in.
Noted. But you’re doing more than members of Congress. I can’t complain about that.
295 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:58:05am |
re: #289 iceweasel
What kind of commie are you? You know cops would never lie to protect themselves.
296 | Baier Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:58:11am |
re: #285 imp_62
Your decision on retirement is based on the passage of a particular legislative agenda? How does that make any sense? And what does the size of your house have to do with self-sufficiency?
What doesn’t make sense to me is working as hard as I am and keeping less and less of my income every year.
297 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:58:21am |
re: #282 Walter L. Newton
(apologies to Iceweasel who is down dinging my health care posts)…
And there is a section on abortion (Sec. 222 page 109), but it will take someone like Lawhawk to parse this language, it looks like it says no funding, unless, yes funding… I can’t make head or tails out of it.
? Did I downding any of your posts in this thread?
I haven’t read the new bill so I’m not yet qualified to engage with you on it.
As for abortion, I believe it is funded, just not with federal funds, or something like that. I’ll have to get back to you on it.
Kudos for reading the whole thing— although we’ll likely disagree about it!
298 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:58:29am |
re: #284 lawhawk
I would love if you could parse Sec. 222 page 109 which deals with abortion funding. I really can’t make head or tails out of it. I will be out of here real soon, but I would love to check back and see if you have the time to come up with any explanation, at least your professional opinion.
299 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:58:49am |
re: #292 Baier
I hope that we can come up with a reasonable health care reform so people don’t go broke because of the costs.
Here’s what I don’t get, and maybe that’s because I’m just too stupid to understand. But I thought Medicare and Medicaid was supposed to be healthcare for folks who couldn’t afford it. If folks aren’t on those programs (or SCHIP), then they apparently don’t want to be or don’t realize that those programs exist. So why do we need yet another system?
300 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:59:36am |
re: #295 RogueOne
What kind of commie are you? You know cops would never lie to protect themselves.
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com…]
Going back to my days as an attorney in the criminal justice system: I admire cops for the job they do, but I don’t trust them any further than I could throw Dennis Franz.
301 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:00:18am |
re: #297 iceweasel
? Did I downding any of your posts in this thread?
I haven’t read the new bill so I’m not yet qualified to engage with you on it.
As for abortion, I believe it is funded, just not with federal funds, or something like that. I’ll have to get back to you on it.
Kudos for reading the whole thing— although we’ll likely disagree about it!
No, like I said above, I didn’t read the whole thing yet, just zeroed in on certain talking points that I was interested in. I will be going through as much as I can before the progressive try to ram this through next week.
In the least, I will understand the mess that they hand us next week.
302 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:00:39am |
re: #293 vxbush
Noted. But you’re doing more than members of Congress. I can’t complain about that.
Upding! I’d laugh out loud, if it wasn’t so sad. I really hope there are some legislators who do read it. I’d love to see a senator or representative stand up in the chamber, all bleary eyed and say:
“To my colleagues, trust me, I’ve read the entire bill. I have - not my staff. First, can anyone get me a cup of coffee? No, wait, a pot of coffee? Who the hell thought a 1990 page bill was a good idea? Geeze!”
303 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:00:58am |
re: #297 iceweasel
I believe it is funded, just not with federal funds
ummm,,, HUH !?!?!
How then??
Bake sales?
Car washes??
Truning in soda bottles for the rebates !?!?!?!?!?!
304 | wrenchwench Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:01:41am |
305 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:02:00am |
re: #303 sattv4u2
I believe it is funded, just not with federal funds
ummm,,, HUH !?!?!
How then??
Bake sales?
Car washes??
Truning in soda bottles for the rebates !?!?!?!?!?!
One word… BONO!
306 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:02:38am |
re: #283 RogueOne
I might have a bit of a man-crush on this guy:
[Link: reason.com…]I almost always disagree with his foreign policy takes, but he’s done such a good job reporting on systematic abuse and corruption I give him a pass.
ooh yeah— Radley Balko. I seem to recall that he was one of the only people who (I thought) got the whole Crowley/Gates fiasco right IMO. But there’s a ton of other stuff he’s written that I can’t agree with at all.
I didn’t realise he was systematically reporting on abuse and corrupt. Might have to start following him on that!
307 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:03:13am |
re: #303 sattv4u2
I believe it is funded, just not with federal funds
ummm,,, HUH !?!?!
How then??
Bake sales?
Car washes??
Truning in soda bottles for the rebates !?!?!?!?!?!
Ch - Ch - Ch - Chia!
308 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:04:14am |
re: #301 Walter L. Newton
No, like I said above, I didn’t read the whole thing yet, just zeroed in on certain talking points that I was interested in. I will be going through as much as I can before the progressive try to ram this through next week.
In the least, I will understand the mess that they hand us next week.
Awesome. I’ll try to do the same thing. Have a lot going on at the moment, though.
Look forward to fighting with you having engaging and heated discussions with you about it!
310 | Killgore Trout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:06:05am |
Wingnuts are freaking out about death panels again. Ugh, it’s going to be one of those days.
311 | Political Atheist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:07:23am |
re: #310 Killgore Trout
I really wish they would include the insurance company claims adjusters in their attentions
312 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:07:26am |
re: #303 sattv4u2
I believe it is funded, just not with federal funds
ummm,,, HUH !?!?!
How then??
Bake sales?
Car washes??
Truning in soda bottles for the rebates !?!?!?!?!?!
Yeah, I can’t remember at the moment and I haven’t read the new bill— HR 3200 had some weird way of saying that abortion was covered, but it wasn’t taxes that would pay for it— something like that. My guess is that the new bill is doing the exact same thing vis-a-vis abortion as 3200, because if they weren’t going to cover abortion in the new bill I definitely would have heard about it — and that would also explain why Walter couldnt make head or tail of it in the new bill. It was really complicated wording.
313 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:08:20am |
re: #296 Baier
What doesn’t make sense to me is working as hard as I am and keeping less and less of my income every year.
Would that not depend on the perceived value of the services you are receiving in return? Hypothetically, according to your statement, you would be happiest in a society where you were not taxed at all. That would mean living in a semi-industrial, non-urban environment where you got to dig your own midden, raise your own food, and pay out of pocket for all goods and services you could not provide on your own. You would also have to trust all merchants to be honest and altruistic, unless you bury your gold and silver in the back yard (no money!) and maintain a private security force to defend it, and your property.
We are certainly over-regulated, under-represented and over-taxed. But blanket statements about disappearing income and lazy people across the street are not truly constructive. I know my karma will take a hit for this post. But, folks, none of us are really willing to give up on the social contract. We just want it to represent the true will of the people, for the good of the majority of the people. At least, that is where I am coming from.
314 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:08:34am |
re: #312 iceweasel
Yeah, I can’t remember at the moment and I haven’t read the new bill— HR 3200 had some weird way of saying that abortion was covered, but it wasn’t taxes that would pay for it— something like that. My guess is that the new bill is doing the exact same thing vis-a-vis abortion as 3200, because if they weren’t going to cover abortion in the new bill I definitely would have heard about it — and that would also explain why Walter couldnt make head or tail of it in the new bill. It was really complicated wording.
Could those of you reviewing bills do me the simple favor of listing the bills numbers for any versions in the house and senate regarding healthcare? I would love to be able to keep track, but I don’t even have a starting point.
315 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:08:41am |
Ok… I may be back in a few minutes… I have to find my car under the 3 feet of snow and get it ready to drive down hill to work… BBIAB… (if not, send out the huskies).
316 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:00am |
re: #304 wrenchwench
I’m guilty of the second one twice. I’d do the third one if I understood it.
I was hoping one of the smart people here could explain number 3…
317 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:22am |
re: #306 iceweasel
He’s really been hammering states like Mississippi pretty hard. He’s been focusing on the need for some sort of standards, based on actual science, for forensics lately.
318 | Baier Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:26am |
re: #315 Walter L. Newton
Ok… I may be back in a few minutes… I have to find my car under the 3 feet of snow and get it ready to drive down hill to work… BBIAB… (if not, send out the huskies).
Evergreen is like that!
319 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:38am |
re: #311 Rightwingconspirator
I really wish they would include the insurance company claims adjusters in their attentions
For example, you;d think that wingnuts would be criticising the way insurance companies in a few states can call pregnancy a ‘pre-existing condition’ — and deny coverage and care to expectant mothers.
Not a very pro-life, pro-family, ‘we care about babies in the womb’ stance.
320 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:42am |
re: #316 imp_62
I was hoping one of the smart people here could explain number 3…
Would it help if I said I knew it was funny, but I’ve forgotten why? I could look it up…
321 | albusteve Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:10:38am |
these questions should also be address…(ripped from AT)
ObamaCare supporter should be asked the following questions:
1) Why is socialized medicine being “sold” as a way to make health care affordable without addressing the crippling costs of medical malpractice insurance?
2) Why is tort reform not a major part of any of these bills?
3) If coverage does not include illegal aliens, why are providers not allowed to ask proof of citizenship from the patient?
4) How does a public plan promote competition? There are over 3,000 health insurance providers today. When the government whittles this number down to one — itself — how is that competitive?
5) How can you provide health care to another 30 million folks without a massive increase in medical staff, equipment, pharmaceuticals, and hospitals?
6) How will government increase staff when it has pledged to limit pay and cut revenue to hospitals and doctors? Every other government provider of health care in the world must limit care. How will our system avoid limiting care? Unfortunately, our socialized health care system will have no choice but to limit health care. There will be death panels. Decisions that have historically been made by individuals, families, and their doctors, will now be made by government employees — strangers who assess statistics, medical expediency, and finances rather than ethics, religious principles, and freedom.
So, 7) Will the health care legislation provide federally funded abortions?
8) Why does the Obama administration seek to silence or counterattack every organization and individual that has opposed the plan? Isn’t debate a critical part of democracy?
9) Why is legislation to give Congress three days to read and comprehend what will be a 1000- to 1500-page bill being squashed by the Left? Thirty days is not enough to review a bill of this magnitude. I predict that it will be forced through in record time à la Cap and Trade in the House, where they had less than half a day before the bill came to a vote.
322 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:10:47am |
re: #320 vxbush
Would it help if I said I knew it was funny, but I’ve forgotten why? I could look it up…
If you have a moment - otherwise I will Google it later… Thanks
323 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:11:23am |
re: #312 iceweasel
Walter couldnt make head or tail of it in the new bill. It was really complicated wording
on purpose
WHY?
1st, trying to digest nearly 2000 pages, some of which is addendum fine print
2nd, doing it in two weeks
3rd, having “complicated wording” so it could be interpreted different ways until the bill is bassed and the authors explain it to the regulatory commissions
One word
FEH!
324 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:12:53am |
re: #310 Killgore Trout
Wingnuts are freaking out about death panels again. Ugh, it’s going to be one of those days.
Sigh. What’s the point of their using incendiary language like that? It doesn’t advance the debate, it simply inflames the issue.
Death panel? Okay, it’s nothing new. Battlefield triage is nothing more than a “death panel”. Making a choice between those who have little or no chance to survive, to try to make sure you can save as many troops as possible who do have a chance to survive. You can call that a “death panel” if you so choose, but what’s the point?
If it refers to a group of faceless bureaucrats making decisions based on pre-defined restrictions in when and how to cease providing care, that’s an issue to be debated. A knee-jerk use of the term “death panel” is not at all helpful.
325 | Four More Tears Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:13:05am |
Anyone else see John Stewart have fun with Fox and the White House last night?
326 | wrenchwench Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:14:29am |
re: #320 vxbush
Would it help if I said I knew it was funny, but I’ve forgotten why? I could look it up…
I’m guessing that the word “argument” has a specific meaning in mathematics, and somehow it is misused in this case, and mathematicians are very thin skinned…ooops, did I go too far?
/
327 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:14:58am |
re: #323 sattv4u2
Walter couldnt make head or tail of it in the new bill. It was really complicated wording
on purpose
WHY?
1st, trying to digest nearly 2000 pages, some of which is addendum fine print
2nd, doing it in two weeks
3rd, having “complicated wording” so it could be interpreted different ways until the bill is bassed and the authors explain it to the regulatory commissionsOne word
FEH!
I think it has to be complicated, because the task it’s undertaking is so huge. It’s overhauling the entire health care system. Frankly, the more details they’re thinking about the better, IMO.
328 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:15:04am |
re: #300 imp_62
yeah, i don’t want to come across as a cop hater or something but this kind of stuff happens way too often.
331 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:16:31am |
re: #316 imp_62
I was hoping one of the smart people here could explain number 3…
IIRC the Ackermann function is a recursive function that will quickly produce extremely large numbers (and keep going as long as you or your infinite-memory computer can manage the computations), from small input numbers.
Graham’s number is a very very VERY large number. Bigger than a googol.
332 | KingKenrod Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:00am |
re: #324 subsailor68
Sigh. What’s the point of their using incendiary language like that? It doesn’t advance the debate, it simply inflames the issue.
Death panel? Okay, it’s nothing new. Battlefield triage is nothing more than a “death panel”. Making a choice between those who have little or no chance to survive, to try to make sure you can save as many troops as possible who do have a chance to survive. You can call that a “death panel” if you so choose, but what’s the point?
If it refers to a group of faceless bureaucrats making decisions based on pre-defined restrictions in when and how to cease providing care, that’s an issue to be debated. A knee-jerk use of the term “death panel” is not at all helpful.
Incendiary language motivates people to act through anger or fear. Most people aren’t engaged in the debate, but they will oppose the legislation if the emotions get stoked. Of course, both sides are doing it.
333 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:03am |
re: #298 Walter L. Newton
Here’s my take on those sections in HR 3962 (text here).
Section 222 deals with general health benefits coverage, of which it sets out minimum coverage requirements:
(1) Hospitalization.
(2) Outpatient hospital and outpatient clinic services, including emergency department services.
(3) Professional services of physicians and other health professionals.
(4) Such services, equipment, and supplies incident to the services of a physician’s or a health professional’s delivery of care in institutional settings, physician offices, patients’ homes or place of residence, or other settings, as appropriate.
(5) Prescription drugs.
(6) Rehabilitative and habilitative services.
(7) Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatments.
(8) Preventive services, including those services recommended with a grade of A or B by the Task Force on Clinical Preventive Services and those vaccines recommended for use by the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
(9) Maternity care.
(10) Well-baby and well-child care and oral health, vision, and hearing services, equipment, and supplies for children under 21 years of age.
(11) Durable medical equipment, prosthetics, orthotics and related supplies.
There’s a discussion of cost sharing and copayments.
There’s a discussion of counseling for domestic violence.
Now, for the abortion coverage items:
Abortion is not to be considered for inclusion under the minimum benefits requirement (essential benefits package) provisions outlined above, except to the extent allowed by federal law relating to abortion funding under (4)(B), which I reproduced below. A qualified health benefits plan may voluntarily add abortion coverage, above that which is allowed by federal law relating to abortion funding.
(B) ABORTIONS FOR WHICH PUBLIC FUNDING IS ALLOWED.—The services described in this subparagraph are abortions for which the expenditure of Federal funds appropriated for the Department of Health and Human Services is permitted, based on the law as in effect as
of the date that is 6 months before the beginning of the plan year involved.
I have no opinion either way on what this does re: funding as I have yet to examine the bill’s more serious tax implications. However, it seems that it pretty much conforms to existing law on point from my limited reading of the section.
335 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:16am |
re: #327 iceweasel
I think it has to be complicated, because the task it’s undertaking is so huge. It’s overhauling the entire health care system. Frankly, the more details they’re thinking about the better, IMO.
more + complicated verbiage (does not) = “better”
336 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:25am |
re: #326 wrenchwench
I’m guessing that the word “argument” has a specific meaning in mathematics, and somehow it is misused in this case, and mathematicians are very thin skinned…ooops, did I go too far?
/
LOL
The arguments would be the input numbers.
337 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:51am |
re: #325 JasonA
Anyone else see John Stewart have fun with Fox and the White House last night?
[Link: www.thedailyshow.com…]
yes! but your link isn’t working. It’s on the main page tho. Did you see the Lieberman filibuster bit?
338 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:18:30am |
re: #321 albusteve
I think the complexity of the legislation has evolved to the point where it will not be possibly to predict outcomes. Healthcare legislation will spawn hundreds of follow-up bills and an entire industry will spring up to guide people through the thicket of regulations. As always, lawyers, lobbyists and self-proclaimed “experts” will feast on the old, sick, infirm and uneducated. This for me is the true tragedy of this bill.
The only potential silver lining I can discern is that this legislation will destroy healthcare in this country to the point where we have to start from scratch to build a simple system where people pay a reasonable amount for care, doctors earn a comfortable living, medical education does not leave health professionals hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and malpractice insurance costs are not a multiple of the average U.S. family income.
339 | Irish Rose Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:18:47am |
re: #334 RogueOne
Good to see you, you hanging in there?
Hanging in.
Fortunately I have a lot of downtime planned for this weekend.
340 | Irish Rose Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:19:40am |
Looks like Miss Trixie is now posting at 2.0.
342 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:19:49am |
re: #335 sattv4u2
more + complicated verbiage (does not) = “better”
Not necessarily better, of course — you’ll also notice that I was assuming they were thinking about it. :)
343 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:20:39am |
re: #339 Irish Rose
Hanging in.
Fortunately I have a lot of downtime planned for this weekend.
Any Halloween plans?
344 | KingKenrod Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:20:42am |
re: #338 imp_62
I think the complexity of the legislation has evolved to the point where it will not be possibly to predict outcomes. Healthcare legislation will spawn hundreds of follow-up bills and an entire industry will spring up to guide people through the thicket of regulations. As always, lawyers, lobbyists and self-proclaimed “experts” will feast on the old, sick, infirm and uneducated. This for me is the true tragedy of this bill.
The only potential silver lining I can discern is that this legislation will destroy healthcare in this country to the point where we have to start from scratch to build a simple system where people pay a reasonable amount for care, doctors earn a comfortable living, medical education does not leave health professionals hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and malpractice insurance costs are not a multiple of the average U.S. family income.
I’d call all that non-value added. You expend more effort but wind up with the same or worse outcome.
345 | Four More Tears Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:20:52am |
346 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:21:49am |
re: #327 iceweasel
I think it has to be complicated, because the task it’s undertaking is so huge. It’s overhauling the entire health care system. Frankly, the more details they’re thinking about the better, IMO.
Hi ice! I think the problem some of us have with the approach being taken in this legislation is that it is not, in fact, addressing the overhaul of the health CARE system. Rather, the focus is on the health INSURANCE system. Nowhere in this legislation is there an attempt to deal with tort reform, malpractice insurance costs - both of which lead to “defensive medicine”. If we end up with everyone “insured”, but no reform of the issues that are causing health care costs to continue to rise, we’re in danger of bankrupting ourselves.
A study done not long ago (I’ll try to find the link) discovered that the cost to cover “non-paying uninsured medical costs” (people who get treatment and take off without paying) is about 2.2 percent of the overall cost of heath care in this country. Is solving that problem (uninsured) worth $1.2 trillion?
I don’t know, but it’s worth thinking about.
347 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:22:09am |
re: #341 imp_62
You’re welcome.
You know, now that I think about it, this healthcare legislation looks kind of like an Ackermann function.
From small, simple input (we’d like to insure more people), we get… immense and ever-growing costs.
348 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:23:02am |
re: #322 imp_62
If you have a moment - otherwise I will Google it later… Thanks
From MathWorld:
The Ackermann function is the simplest example of a well-defined total function which is computable but not primitive recursive, providing a counterexample to the belief in the early 1900s that every computable function was also primitive recursive (Dötzel 1991). It grows faster than an exponential function, or even a multiple exponential function.
There’s a function given there, but I don’t have the tools here to show that function. Needless to say, it grows really big, really fast.
Now, Graham’s number is icky in it’s own right. Let ^ represent an arrow. Define:
m^n = m*m*m*…*m (n times)
m^^n = m^m^m^…^m (n times)
m^^^n = m^^m^^m^^m^^…^^m (n times)
then Graham’s number is g_64 = 3^…^3 (with 63 ^’s)
That’s nasty big.
349 | Irish Rose Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:23:42am |
re: #343 Mad Al-Jaffee
Any Halloween plans?
Sweetie and I are going to a Halloween party for a few hours if I’m feeling better by Saturday night, pretty sure I will be.
350 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:24:48am |
re: #345 JasonA
Doh!
Colbert did a great job on Lieberman, too.
Haven’t seen that yet— will look for it. Colbert’s twitter feed is hilarious:
there’s a pumpkin shortage. So if you need something scary for your porch, just get home delivery of the new york times.
351 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:00am |
re: #344 KingKenrod
I’d call all that non-value added. You expend more effort but wind up with the same or worse outcome.
Of course. An outcome where the resulting system is worse than what we started with is virtually guaranteed by the complexity of the legislated system. You cannot expect a Rube Goldberg device to deliver efficient outcomes for an indefinite period of time. Overall, though I remain a believer in the resilience of the American economy and the ability of our society to overcome the occasional (historically speaking) piece of bad legislation. *cough* Smoot-Hawley *cough* Prohibition *cough*
352 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:14am |
re: #346 subsailor68
addressing the overhaul of the health CARE system
HR 3400 does, but sadly it is stuck on the bottom of a stack in a committee
353 | Honorary Yooper Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:23am |
re: #340 Irish Rose
Looks like Miss Trixie is now posting at 2.0.
I’ve noticed far too many posting over there despite the warnings given about the owners of the site.
354 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:53am |
re: #347 lurking faith
You’re welcome.
You know, now that I think about it, this healthcare legislation looks kind of like an Ackermann function.
From small, simple input (we’d like to insure more people), we get… immense and ever-growing costs.
It should henceforth be known in this forum as “the Ackermann bill” lol
355 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:56am |
re: #349 Irish Rose
I hope you can go. Got a costume picked out yet?
356 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:56am |
Well, I back, after returning to bed. I feel great!
I suggest everyone do the same.
What’s going on?
357 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:26:32am |
re: #327 iceweasel
The more details there are, the more likely they are to get wrong.
We’re talking about an entire sector of the US Economy. It has millions of parts that are interconnected and in ways that are both obvious and not. Back when NASA was putting together the Apollo program, someone asked what about fault tolerance among the 5 million parts. They were aiming for a 99.9% fault tolerance, which means you have a 1/10 of 1% error rate or 50,000 problematic items in any given flight. Mind you, that doesn’t mean everything fails, or that everything is a disaster waiting to happen. It could be something as simple as a screw being loose and coming ajar in flight that might muck up some other system, or a piece of velcro that doesn’t work.
Here, there’s a nearly 2,000 page bill that hits at seemingly every aspect of health insurance procurement. Do you really want a bill that has that many problems built in - either by design, omission, or commission?
Instead of trying to fix existing problematic entitlements, we’re getting a new one superimposed over the old ones, that will end up having even bigger problems with greater costs - and higher taxes to boot, all in the name of reducing the number of uninsured. And the costs are being undersold in favor of showing the supposed benefits that will inure to a select few - far less than the 85% of Americans who already have coverage.
Moreover, what gets short shrift is the quality of care under the new system, given that the number of doctors is a relative constant, which means that with more people seeking care, the time spent per patient necessarily has to decrease, worsening the level (and quality) of care.
That’s a huge gaping hole in the logic of this proposal.
358 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:26:35am |
re: #352 sattv4u2
addressing the overhaul of the health CARE system
HR 3400 does, but sadly it is stuck on the bottom of a stack in a committee
Hi sattv4u2! I’d forgotten about that. Thanks! That’s one I need to read as well.
360 | Four More Tears Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:27:40am |
re: #350 iceweasel
I highly recommend it.
turns out those northwest pilots were just on their laptops, no doubt playing microsoft cubicle simulator
361 | Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:28:53am |
362 | right_wing2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:29:08am |
Let’s start off with finding the Constitutional authority to put this monstrosity together in the first place.
Sure, we need to make some changes to our health care system, but a bill with this level of control by the government, a bill containing hundreds of ‘shall’ ‘must’ and ‘will’s and dozens of ‘tax’ words is the wrong way to go.
States, for example, need to allow more insurance companies to do business there, with greater choice by the end consumer. We don’t need a ‘one size fits all’ bill like we’re getting in this. We could allow greater use of Medical Savings Accounts. Allowing people to hold on to the unused part of that account from year to year would, in the long run, provide for their greater expenses as they get older. Tort reform would cut costs, as ambulance chasing lawyers like a former VP candidate are able to rake in less for themselves from frivolous cases.
Improve the system? Sure. Virtually replace it with the calibre people we’ve got from Obama to date? No thanks.
363 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:29:16am |
re: #346 subsailor68
Hi ice! I think the problem some of us have with the approach being taken in this legislation is that it is not, in fact, addressing the overhaul of the health CARE system. Rather, the focus is on the health INSURANCE system. Nowhere in this legislation is there an attempt to deal with tort reform, malpractice insurance costs - both of which lead to “defensive medicine”. If we end up with everyone “insured”, but no reform of the issues that are causing health care costs to continue to rise, we’re in danger of bankrupting ourselves.
A study done not long ago (I’ll try to find the link) discovered that the cost to cover “non-paying uninsured medical costs” (people who get treatment and take off without paying) is about 2.2 percent of the overall cost of heath care in this country. Is solving that problem (uninsured) worth $1.2 trillion?
I don’t know, but it’s worth thinking about.
That gets me too—insurance is insurance—it works because it is “risk management”. Congress doesn’t seem to want to accept that what is wanted is not “risk Management” but some way to pay for everyone. Insurance is not designed to pay for everyone and everthing. It’s a direct conflict with the whole concept of Insurance.
I guess it’s easier to attact the evil corporations than to go out of the box and devise a new system. (which I don’t think is really possible—insurance is the best system—when allowed to be—with out lawyers interferring.—IMHO)
364 | NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:30:33am |
Breaking:
Iraqi man accused of running down daughter found in Atlanta
(CNN) — Authorities said Friday that an Iraqi man, accused of running down his daughter in Arizona because she had become “too Westernized,” has been taken into custody in Atlanta, Georgia.
U.S. Marshals arrested Faleh Hassan Almaleki, 48, in Atlanta, according to spokesman James Ergas.
Police in Peoria, Arizona, say Almaleki struck his 20-year-old daughter, Noor Faleh Almaleki, and her friend Amal Edan Khalaf with a vehicle he was driving in a parking lot October 20.
365 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:30:37am |
OK, I seem to have hit some nerves. Let me be longwinded.
First - read my blog and you’ll see I’m in the process of trying to summarize the bill (hit high points) for those who have not read it. The assumption that I haven’t read the bill is mistaken. Not all who disagree with the position held are doing so from ignorance.
Second for a handful of respondents, I did not ask Walter to stop posting, I asked him to not be disingenuous. He eliminated the ignorant portion so I know he’s not doing that. Perhaps what I should have said was quit acting like a teabagger, but he’s not being quite that bad. (He is after all quoting accurate numbers where he’s referencing them, and my experience with teabaggers is that they have a tendency to misstate facts.)
Since it appears much of the remainder of the rage is based on my supporting the bill, I’ll spend the rest of this post briefly stating why. As has been noted by several the problem really isn’t health care availability. Anyone can go to the emergency room and by law will not be turned away.
The problem is health care cost; both in itself and in relation to care received for the cost. For the former consider the emergency room situation just mentioned. It doesn’t take more than a couple of trips that have to be fully paid by the individual before that individual is facing poverty or bankruptcy. Given a choice between suffering with constant but non-crippling pain and going bankrupt, many choose the pain. The same unfortunately applies for communicable illnesses. Given a choice between the same poverty/bankruptcy and choosing to live with the constant hacking and sneezing and occasional vomit while among others (and so passing it along), many choose to remain sick. It is this latter point that makes this a community good issue, a point to which I’ll return shortly.
However I want to point out the health care cost issue as well. The care in the US is pretty good. However by every existing review we pay significantly more for less effective service. We are ‘best’ in prostate and breast cancer survivability. For life expectancy and other cancer survivorship and infant mortality and every other measure we are in the bottom half (and in most cases bottom 10%) in comparison to not only the G12 but the G20 - our notional industrial and economic peers. For this middling performance we pay at LEAST 30% more per capita counting all sources of revenue. In simple, we’re paying a lot more for goods of a lesser quality.
Because it is a common good issue, I believe providing national health care fulfills a constitutional provision: “Provide for the common welfare”. This justifies using taxes to pay for it. Also because it is a common good issue I believe it falls into one of the reasons ‘free market rules’ should be constrained. To be specific, free market rules make “profitability” first in priority. An inevitable consequence of profitability first is that adequate and equitable service to all is NOT first and will be sacrificed to some extent to the first priority.
One last thing given I have words remaining. I support the health care bill - and the idea of trying to provide affordable health care for everyone - for economic reasons as well. According to Kaiser’s studies of the issue, a large number of people refrain from starting their own businesses because they cannot afford their own or do not wish to lose existing employer health care plans. As an independent businessman I’m willing to pay some tax if it makes for a net less expensive total cost to get the benefit. This is particularly true given sec 521: credit for small business employers providing health care benefits.
366 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:30:39am |
367 | Irish Rose Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:32:09am |
re: #353 Honorary Yooper
I’ve noticed far too many posting over there despite the warnings given about the owners of the site.
You know what they say, ignorance is bliss.
368 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:32:26am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
addressing the overhaul of the health CARE system
You’ve read a 1990 page bill in a day?
Wow ,,,hats off to you!
369 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:32:29am |
re: #346 subsailor68
Hi ice! I think the problem some of us have with the approach being taken in this legislation is that it is not, in fact, addressing the overhaul of the health CARE system. Rather, the focus is on the health INSURANCE system. Nowhere in this legislation is there an attempt to deal with tort reform, malpractice insurance costs - both of which lead to “defensive medicine”. If we end up with everyone “insured”, but no reform of the issues that are causing health care costs to continue to rise, we’re in danger of bankrupting ourselves.
A study done not long ago (I’ll try to find the link) discovered that the cost to cover “non-paying uninsured medical costs” (people who get treatment and take off without paying) is about 2.2 percent of the overall cost of heath care in this country. Is solving that problem (uninsured) worth $1.2 trillion?
I don’t know, but it’s worth thinking about.
hey subsailor! You’re absolutely right that it’s ridiculous that tort reform was never even on the table. Just crap. From some of the figures I’ve seen though, it wouldn’t bring the costs down as much as we’d think. Apparently it makes up a (relatively) small percentage of overall costs.
One huge worry is that the bulk of the costs currently all come from administrative costs. So there is a very serious worry about whether the reform is going to result in streamlining those costs, or adding even more bureauocracy.
But as to your last bit, my understanding is that it isn’t solely about solving that problem, but providing care for all the uninsured (and underinsured). In that instance, the REAL worry is all about the difficulty of getting an accurate count of the uninsured. The bottom line is that we don’t have an accurate count. The low ball estimates are (i think) around 15 million; the reasonable top end estimate is 38 million. And that’s the single biggest consideration in determining how much it’s going to cost, because if the number of the uninsured (who qualify for the subsidises to help pay for their insurance) turns out to be much greater than what’s estimated, the plan will cost us much more. If it’s much lower, then it will cost us less.
370 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:32:33am |
re: #362 right_wing2
Let’s start off with finding the Constitutional authority to put this monstrosity together in the first place.
Sure, we need to make some changes to our health care system, but a bill with this level of control by the government, a bill containing hundreds of ‘shall’ ‘must’ and ‘will’s and dozens of ‘tax’ words is the wrong way to go.
States, for example, need to allow more insurance companies to do business there, with greater choice by the end consumer. We don’t need a ‘one size fits all’ bill like we’re getting in this. We could allow greater use of Medical Savings Accounts. Allowing people to hold on to the unused part of that account from year to year would, in the long run, provide for their greater expenses as they get older. Tort reform would cut costs, as ambulance chasing lawyers like a former VP candidate are able to rake in less for themselves from frivolous cases.
Improve the system? Sure. Virtually replace it with the calibre people we’ve got from Obama to date? No thanks.
1-Tort Reform
2-Remove State barriers to Insurance Companies
Increase competition? What —would that work? Actually bring costs down?
/
371 | Irish Rose Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:03am |
372 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:16am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
The assumption that I haven’t read the bill is mistaken.
You’ve read a 1990 page bill in a day?
Wow ,,,hats off to you!
(pimf)
373 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:43am |
374 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:52am |
re: #258 sattv4u2
No, paying for itself does not mean revenue neutral. It means it is deficit neutral.
375 | NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:36:02am |
Now that he’s finally in the body he always felt he belonged in, Chaz Bono says he’s enjoying something that took decades to accomplish.
“It’s a long process going back almost a decade. I got clean and sober in 2004 and I couldn’t have done this before that,” Bono, formerly known as Chastity, tells, “Entertainment Tonight” in an interview airing Thursday and Friday.
Born the daughter of Cher and Sonny Bono, Chaz, 40, has been undergoing a female-to-male sex change since March, a process that has already had significant physical changes on his body.
“It lowered my voice,” he says. “Fat redistributes, muscle growth, hair growth, sex drive increases.”
376 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:36:39am |
OK… it’s the Friday morning snow picture… here is a picture of my driveway before I cleared off the snow from my car…
I’m warming it up now, windows still icy. Colorado, gotta love it.
377 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:36:54am |
re: #369 iceweasel
From some of the figures I’ve seen though, it wouldn’t bring the costs down as much as we’d think.
The ‘figures” that they continually site in tort reform savings just goes to costs associated with actual trial/ cases/ awards/ settlements
Whats NOT figured in is the defensive procedures Dr’s order just so IF they get sued and a lawyer says “well Doctor,, why didn’t you send the patient to X, Y, and Z tests”
Those X, Y and Z tests are taxing the cost system (and wait lines) but are NOT figured in the awards of lawsuits
378 | Kragar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:36:55am |
379 | Soundboard Fez Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:37:05am |
re: #375 NJDhockeyfan
It’s hard to imagine Chaz Bono getting any more masculine than s/he already was before the procedure.
380 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:37:50am |
re: #368 sattv4u2
grin - read, yes. Fully comprehended? Not by a long shot.
I read very quickly. Sadly I’m between jobs which in turn gives me a lot of time between applications and interviews. Happily this means I do get to grind through long items in a day or two instead of a few days.
The ‘compressing for blog posts’ that I’m doing is also forcing me to look more deeply at sections. I still doubt I’ll be an expert but at least I’ll have read it well enough to believe I understand it.
381 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:38:24am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
However I want to point out the health care cost issue as well. The care in the US is pretty good. However by every existing review we pay significantly more for less effective service. We are ‘best’ in prostate and breast cancer survivability. For life expectancy and other cancer survivorship and infant mortality and every other measure we are in the bottom half (and in most cases bottom 10%) in comparison to not only the G12 but the G20 - our notional industrial and economic peers. For this middling performance we pay at LEAST 30% more per capita counting all sources of revenue. In simple, we’re paying a lot more for goods of a lesser quality.
I’ve seen this argument many times. The problem with it is that it’s bullshit.
When computing these costs, apples are compared to oranges. The costs for countries with socialized medicine are based on whatever the government involved happens to pay out under their socialized plans. Whe costs are computed for the US, however, they include ALL medical procedures - every tummy tuck, liposuction, dick extension, boob job, botox injection, hair transplant and literally hundreds of other completely elective procedures that are not covered by any insurance plan - or by any nationalized plan (with extremely rare exceptions). This makes such comparisons worthless - the US costs are hyper-inflated by including all these elective medical procedures, while the same procedures are excluded from foreign tallies because they don’t show up on the government payout sheets, even though they may be just as widely performed.
There are additional problems with such comparisons, but this one in particular renders them completely meaningless.
382 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:39:40am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
First quibble: The phrase in the preamble is “promote the general welfare” (not “provide for the common welfare”).
Second quibble: I notice you cite our infant mortality rate as one of your complaints about the effectiveness of our healthcare system. Bad call. We count every single live birth, however hopeless, as a live birth. Most other countries classify them differently: babies who die in some window after birth, up to 24 hours in some, count as stillborn and thus are not counted in the infant mortality stats.
Third quibble: Life expectancy is not necessarily tied directly to the quality of health care. We’re fat and sedentary by comparison to many countries. Also, we do (sadly) have a lot of death by violence among the young, and I suspect that we also have a higher per capita rate of traffic deaths.
383 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:40:09am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
Excellent post. I’lll check out your blog. Just wanted to single this bit out for now:
One last thing given I have words remaining. I support the health care bill - and the idea of trying to provide affordable health care for everyone - for economic reasons as well. According to Kaiser’s studies of the issue, a large number of people refrain from starting their own businesses because they cannot afford their own or do not wish to lose existing employer health care plans. As an independent businessman I’m willing to pay some tax if it makes for a net less expensive total cost to get the benefit. This is particularly true given sec 521: credit for small business employers providing health care benefits.
Exactly. I know older people who won’t start their own business for exactly that reason. On the other hand, I also know younger people in their twenties who went ahead and started one, gambling on not getting sick or injured— and they did. It’s crazy.
384 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:40:41am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
Second for a handful of respondents, I did not ask Walter to stop posting, I asked him to not be disingenuous. He eliminated the ignorant portion so I know he’s not doing that. Perhaps what I should have said was quit acting like a teabagger, but he’s not being quite that bad. (He is after all quoting accurate numbers where he’s referencing them, and my experience with teabaggers is that they have a tendency to misstate facts.)
No one said you asked me to stop posting. You asked me to stop making objections to the bill (“But I ask that you not make these
types of objections to the bill”).
Well, I will make any objection that I want. Where in do you get off telling someone here NOT TO MAKE AN OBJECTION.
You can tell me I’m wrong, stupid, lying, but you have no right to tell me to STOP.
Nice move, pimping your blog.
385 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:40:56am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
For the former consider the emergency room situation just mentioned. It doesn’t take more than a couple of trips that have to be fully paid by the individual before that individual is facing poverty or bankruptcy.
This has been a reality —illness, family ruin—from the beginning of time. In the past it has been much, much worse.
What I don’t understand is the concept that we can eradicate this reality with legislation. The economics don’t support the idea.
We can legislate as much prevention and support for the family in the form of food vouchers, etc. Even if the person is 100% perfect—eats property, doesn’t smoke etc—bad thinks happen.
We’ve saved so many lives thru simple things like pastuerization of milk and simple childhood vaccines—seatbelt laws etc—all which can be legislated and make economic sense.
What I see the “public” wanting is a “blank check” at the hospital. I think this will only drive costs up and actual health care down as the corruption, and fear of prosecution- will eat up the benefits that are suppossed to go to the people.
386 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:41:11am |
re: #369 iceweasel
I’m completely with ya on administrative costs! And in that area, both government AND private insurers get a well-deserved hit. I’m pretty sure you’ve seen the same thing at your doctor as I’ve seen with mine. Non-medical employees hired (or contracted out) just to handle claim submittals (Medicare, Medicaid, or private insurers) - and to follow up with multiple calls - including time “on hold” listening to covers of Barry Manilow tunes - to get a final resolution.
The only reference I’ve seen in this area has been to “automating records” using technology. Okay, that’s part of it. But without reforming submittal, reporting, and compliance issues, the only thing technology will accomplish is getting that non-medical employee to the Barry Manilow music much, more quickly.
;-)
387 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:42:30am |
Congress, the Presidents, and the Courts will all find constitutional support for the legality of the proposed legislation - primarily in Art 1, Sec 8, or the catchall Art 1, Sec. 8, clause 18. It affects interstate commerce and provides for the common welfare, so constitutional arguments against this legislation are likely to be losing ones.
That said, there’s one huge area where savings can be found that is unaddressed in the legislation or existing law (enforcement).
That’s fraud and waste. Some reports indicate that $60 billion a year spent in Medicare is fraudulent.
Add that up. Over a 10 year span, that’s $600 billion (excluding interest), which could fund a whole heck of a lot.
Eliminate the fraud, even a portion of it, and provide it straight up as health savings accounts for those without insurance, and you could end up with a system that provides insurance coverage, particularly for catastrophic care, without pushing the government into all aspects of health care delivery.
This bill doesn’t address fraud, which is only likely to explode under the new program since the problems allowing the fraud to fester will continue.
388 | NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:43:14am |
re: #122 DaddyG
I don’t know what to say. He’s not exactly Islamic husband of the year but whoa!
“He made her do stuff that she didn’t like to do — eating pork, drinking alcohol, wearing short clothes. She did all of that to make him happy,” the source said.
He obviously had it coming.
//
389 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:43:57am |
re: #369 iceweasel
hey subsailor! You’re absolutely right that it’s ridiculous that tort reform was never even on the table. Just crap. From some of the figures I’ve seen though, it wouldn’t bring the costs down as much as we’d think. Apparently it makes up a (relatively) small percentage of overall costs.
One huge worry is that the bulk of the costs currently all come from administrative costs. So there is a very serious worry about whether the reform is going to result in streamlining those costs, or adding even more bureauocracy.But as to your last bit, my understanding is that it isn’t solely about solving that problem, but providing care for all the uninsured (and underinsured). In that instance, the REAL worry is all about the difficulty of getting an accurate count of the uninsured. The bottom line is that we don’t have an accurate count. The low ball estimates are (i think) around 15 million; the reasonable top end estimate is 38 million. And that’s the single biggest consideration in determining how much it’s going to cost, because if the number of the uninsured (who qualify for the subsidises to help pay for their insurance) turns out to be much greater than what’s estimated, the plan will cost us much more. If it’s much lower, then it will cost us less.
How much of those “administrative costs” are due to fear of lawsuits? All those ‘i’s” dotted and “t’s” crossed in triplicate —is it really necessary?
390 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:45:34am |
re: #380 kirkspencer
grin - read, yes. Fully comprehended? Not by a long shot.
I read very quickly. Sadly I’m between jobs which in turn gives me a lot of time between applications and interviews. Happily this means I do get to grind through long items in a day or two instead of a few days.
The ‘compressing for blog posts’ that I’m doing is also forcing me to look more deeply at sections. I still doubt I’ll be an expert but at least I’ll have read it well enough to believe I understand it.
Well, it is evident that you may not understand anything, since there has been a lot of comments above, comments that are even more detailed and accurate than mine, and you are getting shot down.
Maybe you should go back to requesting that “I ask that you not make these types of objections to the bill…”
That always works.
/
391 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:07am |
re: #381 SixDegrees
Then, there’s the whole apples to oranges comparison relating to life expectancy and infant mortality, both of which are severely affected by when you consider an infant alive; some countries don’t count infant mortality the way the US does; if they did, their mortality standards would be lower. Life expectancy figures are dragged down when you count infant mortality rates.
Death through criminal acts also affects life expectancy, and US violent crime rates are higher than other OECD countries, although some US cities are showing that you can severely curtail those murders (see NYC).
392 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:12am |
re: #370 ggt
And may I suggest (again):
3- Untie health insurance from employment. Instead of giving the tax credit to the employers, give a direct tax credit to the individual for going out and buying whatever health insurance they want.
This would increase individual consumer choice, remove a financial and emotional barrier to changing jobs or starting businesses, and decrease the financial hit you take if you lose a job.
393 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:17am |
re: #365 kirkspencer
I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your post. My objection to the bill is founded not in the philosophy underlying its objectives, but rather in the feasibility of execution. There is no question in my mind that there is no hidden agenda, no death panels, no desire to make illegal aliens more comfortable here. However, I also harbour absolutely no doubt at all that a government bureaucracy is by definition incapable of administering the system foreseen by the legislation. As with the creation of any system of regulations and laws, there will be waste, arbitrary or entirely absent enforcement, and benefits to those who can afford to pay for guidance or for care outside the system. Physicians will entirely opt out in any way they can, as the legislation fails to address some very valid concerns of the health care profession: insurance premia and tort reform. Private insurance will continue to flourish as it does in the UK, with the wealthy able to access medical care that is a cut above what other citizens can afford.
I continue to be in favour of the introduction of a simple dual mandate system, where an appropriately regulated insurance industry is required to provide insurance, and all citizens are required to acquire medical insurance. No exceptions. The dual mandate ensures that sufficient premium income is available to insurers to cover even pre-existing conditions. The bill is a typical result of committee meetings, lobbying, political deals and pork barrel compromise.
394 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:21am |
re: #385 ggt
We’ve saved so many lives thru simple things like pastuerization of milk and simple childhood vaccines…
Slightly off topic - this is a point which I totally agree with, and think is one of the few cases where government resources are aptly deployed for the benefit of society as a whole.
And today, we see an increasing number of sub-average pinheads refusing to have their children vaccinated because they’re led by a bunch of six-sigma pinheads to believe that the risk of vaccination is somehow greater than the risk of contracting, say, diptheria.
If we’re going to have socialized health care, then I want mandatory vaccinations, period, end of story, with extremely rare exceptions only in cases of actual medical concern or (maybe) religious conviction. For those who refuse: no coverage for anything else. And no coverage, either, for parents who fail to have their kids vaccinated, on the basis that stupidity ought to be costly.
[rant off]
395 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:51am |
re: #386 subsailor68
The only reference I’ve seen in this area has been to “automating records” using technology. Okay, that’s part of it. But without reforming submittal, reporting, and compliance issues, the only thing technology will accomplish is getting that non-medical employee to the Barry Manilow music much, more quickly.;-)
heh. You’re probably right about that.
The automating of records apparently is going to save a lot in terms of paperwork. I’ll have to go see what I can dig up about how it is supposed to work. The only bill I read though (so far) was HR3200 back in— June I think? Quite awhile ago, anyway! — and my memory of it is hazy now, plus I’m not up to date on the new one. (i likely will not be able to get to read it at all before next week, either, unfortunately).
396 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:57am |
re: #376 Walter L. Newton
OK… it’s the Friday morning snow picture… here is a picture of my driveway before I cleared off the snow from my car…
I’m warming it up now, windows still icy. Colorado, gotta love it.
I like the picture, but you really ought to blur your licence plates in publically posted photos.
397 | NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:48:15am |
Whoa…can someone please confirm this?
Pelosi Health Care Bill Would Ban Private Insurance By 2013, Require The Funding Of Abortion
…Page 94—Section 202(c) prohibits the sale of private health insurance policies, beginning in 2013, forcing individuals to purchase coverage through the federal government.
Page 110—Section 222(e) requires the use of federal dollars to fund abortions through the government-run health plan—and, if the Hyde Amendment were ever not renewed, would require the plan to fund elective abortions.
Page 225—Section 330 permits—but does not require—Members of Congress to enroll in government-run health care.
Page 297—Section 501 imposes a 2.5 percent tax on all individuals who do not purchase “bureaucrat-approved” health insurance—the tax would apply on individuals with incomes under $250,000, thus breaking a central promise of then-Senator Obama’s presidential campaign.
Page 1174—Section 1802(b) includes provisions entitled “TAXES ON CERTAIN INSURANCE POLICIES” to fund comparative effectiveness research, breaking Speaker Pelosi’s promise that “We will not be taxing [health] benefits in any bill that passes the House,” and the President’s promise not to raise taxes on families with incomes under $250,000.
Page 313—Section 512 imposes an 8 percent “tax on jobs” for firms that cannot afford to purchase “bureaucrat-approved” health coverage.
398 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:50:03am |
re: #392 lurking faith
And may I suggest (again):
3- Untie health insurance from employment. Instead of giving the tax credit to the employers, give a direct tax credit to the individual for going out and buying whatever health insurance they want.
This would increase individual consumer choice, remove a financial and emotional barrier to changing jobs or starting businesses, and decrease the financial hit you take if you lose a job.
Yes, I forgot that one. I don’t understand why the benefits of “volume-pricing” can’t be detached from employment.
399 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:50:25am |
re: #389 ggt
How much of those “administrative costs” are due to fear of lawsuits? All those ‘i’s” dotted and “t’s” crossed in triplicate —is it really necessary?
No, the administrative costs have to do with the whole maze of paperwork — referrals, etc, — and all the people processing it all. there’s a ton of paperwork whether it’s Medicare/medicaid or private insurance. Private insurance companies also show that the bulk of their costs go to the administrative maze.
The fear of lawsuits does generate some of that paperwork though, in that unnecessary tests are run (and all that generates paperwork too, as well as costing money on its own).
400 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:51:03am |
re: #396 imp_62
I like the picture, but you really ought to blur your licence plates in publically posted photos.
They’re photoshopped… we are really in Key West Florida.
401 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:51:32am |
re: #387 lawhawk
$60 billion a year in fraud, and no mention of how to deal with it in the current bill? “Waste, fraud, and abuse” has been a catch-phrase since the Reagan years (if not before), and nobody - in any administration - has shown a real effort to combat it. I’m afraid I remain skeptical about savings in this area until there’s a real effort to deal with this issue. I suppose my position is, “okay, Congress/administration, you show me a concerted effort to root out and prosecute fraud, to find and correct areas of waste, and I’ll take a look at your proposed legislation.”
402 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:51:59am |
re: #400 Walter L. Newton
They’re photoshopped… we are really in Key West Florida.
Quick - hide the bourbon. He’s been drinking again
lol
403 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:52:02am |
re: #397 NJDhockeyfan
Whoa…can someone please confirm this?
Pelosi Health Care Bill Would Ban Private Insurance By 2013, Require The Funding Of Abortion
No, that can’t be right. It would require all private insurance to participate in the HIE by 2013, not ban it. (that was under 3200; it can’t have changed).
And the provision of abortion is going to be the way lawhawk laid out up above.
404 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:52:55am |
re: #394 SixDegrees
That’s not a rant. I think your position is entirely reasonable.
405 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:53:15am |
re: #401 subsailor68
$60 billion a year in fraud, and no mention of how to deal with it in the current bill? “Waste, fraud, and abuse” has been a catch-phrase since the Reagan years (if not before), and nobody - in any administration - has shown a real effort to combat it. I’m afraid I remain skeptical about savings in this area until there’s a real effort to deal with this issue. I suppose my position is, “okay, Congress/administration, you show me a concerted effort to root out and prosecute fraud, to find and correct areas of waste, and I’ll take a look at your proposed legislation.”
Not possible to deal with it—really. When there is free money —everyone has their had out. This is what really scares me about what Congress is doing.
406 | Four More Tears Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:54:31am |
re: #397 NJDhockeyfan
Whoa…can someone please confirm this?
Pelosi Health Care Bill Would Ban Private Insurance By 2013, Require The Funding Of Abortion
Page 94—Section 202(c) prohibits the sale of private health insurance policies, beginning in 2013, forcing individuals to purchase coverage through the federal government.
Page 225—Section 330 permits—but does not require—Members of Congress to enroll in government-run health care.
If you prohibit the sale of private health insurance what other option would members of Congress have? This sounds like an interpretation of the bill that’s gone way off the rails.
407 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:55:47am |
re: #401 subsailor68
$60 billion a year in fraud, and no mention of how to deal with it in the current bill? “Waste, fraud, and abuse” has been a catch-phrase since the Reagan years (if not before), and nobody - in any administration - has shown a real effort to combat it. I’m afraid I remain skeptical about savings in this area until there’s a real effort to deal with this issue. I suppose my position is, “okay, Congress/administration, you show me a concerted effort to root out and prosecute fraud, to find and correct areas of waste, and I’ll take a look at your proposed legislation.”
Another thought—if there was $60B in fraud in a the private insurance industry —don’t you think the IRS, the NYT and the some Congressional sub-committee of something or other, any unions involved, and the stockholders would be ALL OVER IT?
With profit comes transparency & accountability —
408 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:56:02am |
re: #397 NJDhockeyfan
I’m just going to tackle Section 202 (starting page 91):
There is a grandfather clause for health insurance plans that meet certain conditions.
Plans can be amended to meet the conditions within a grace period.
After the 5th year, plans other than those that are grandfathered may be offered only in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.
I addressed the abortion issue above. If the law changes on federal funding of abortion, this bill would carry through those changes, which looks like how federal law currently functions.
409 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:56:40am |
I’m out of here. Going to see what the 23 miles of road looks like from here at 8200 feet to the Queen Valley (Denver area) after 8inches to 3 feet of snow.
Off to work… may be fun…
411 | Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:57:25am |
re: #408 lawhawk
I missed the abortion part you addressed, I’ll catch it tonight when I get back from work… thanks.
412 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:58:03am |
re: #406 JasonA
If you prohibit the sale of private health insurance what other option would members of Congress have? This sounds like an interpretation of the bill that’s gone way off the rails.
It’s identical to similar rumours about what 3200 provided for, that were false— that’s why I find it immediately suspect.
413 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:58:38am |
I gotta go—since I slept this morning, I have to rush a little in the afternoon.
Which is fine because I am well rested :)
Have a great day all!
414 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:58:49am |
re: #406 JasonA
If you prohibit the sale of private health insurance what other option would members of Congress have? This sounds like an interpretation of the bill that’s gone way off the rails.
They can keep their current Cadillac health insurance, available only to current and former Congresscritters. And Presidents, I presume.
415 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:58:51am |
re: #398 ggt
Yes, I forgot that one. I don’t understand why the benefits of “volume-pricing” can’t be detached from employment.
One problem with individual policies: the insurance companies lose the ability to reduce their outlays by pressuring large employers to change their workplace environments. In the case of manufacturing, pressure from insurance companies to enact all manner of workplace safety and reporting requirements has had the effect of dramatically reducing the rate of workplace accidents, which in turn makes insuring those workers cheaper since they have fewer accidents as a group. There are similar moves underway in white collar establishments, as well - smoking cessation incentives, weight loss incentives, adoption of ergonomic workstations and so on. These large-group advantages are lost when each individual applies for insurance on their own, for the most part - although it would still be possible to charge different rates for different occupations, as politically incorrect as that may be.
It’s a nice idea, but the end result will be higher premiums.
416 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:59:36am |
Something to think about in the healthcare debate: Folks are suggesting (quietly) that changing all our medical records to electronic database will save money as well. But beware who handles the database…
This week, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo announced that Health Net, Inc., a managed care company covering more than two million Californians and nearly a quarter million New Yorkers, had agreed to end its relationship with Ingenix and pay $1.6 million towards the creation of an independent database. This was Cuomo’s twelfth settlement against a network of health insurers across the country (including Aetna, MVP Health Care, Cigna, Wellpoint and Excellus Health Plan) using the Ingenix database, which he charged was a “conflict-of-interest-ridden system” with manipulated data and behind industry-wide consumer fraud and corrupt out-of-network reimbursement schemes.Ingenix is owned by one of the nation’s largest insurers, UnitedHealth Group, Inc., and used by the nation’s largest managed care companies to determine reimbursement policies. Ingenix ran afoul of the Federal Trade Commission, which issued consent orders (Docket No. C-4214) against Milliman, Inc. and Ingenix, Inc. for engaging in “unfair and deceptive acts and practices.” Cuomo said Ingenix was “a conduit for rigged data” for the country’s largest third party payers, private and federal health plans and has intentionally skewed healthcare costs to bilk millions of consumers with higher out-of-pocket insurance bills and short change medical providers for expenses claimed to be over “usual and customary costs.”
417 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:59:48am |
The healthcare bill is simply a stalking horse for all the anti-Bush sentiment and anti-Republican backlash generated over the past 8 years. Once average Americans, part of the broad middle class, start feeling the effects of the resultant legislation in their wallets and their health, there will be electoral repercussions. Obama, after a lifetime of playing the long con, is suddenly going all short term. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. As Dennis Miller once said (loosely paraphrased): If you take politics too seriously, they will make you sick. If you take a step back, you can enjoy it and think sensibly about it.
418 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:00:21am |
re: #408 lawhawk
I’m just going to tackle Section 202 (starting page 91):
There is a grandfather clause for health insurance plans that meet certain conditions.Plans can be amended to meet the conditions within a grace period.
After the 5th year, plans other than those that are grandfathered may be offered only in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.
I addressed the abortion issue above. If the law changes on federal funding of abortion, this bill would carry through those changes, which looks like how federal law currently functions.
IIRC that was exactly how 3200 handled it, as with abortion. Cool, thanks. This is getting me interested in getting into the issue again.
419 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:01:20am |
re: #418 iceweasel
IIRC that was exactly how 3200 handled it, as with abortion. Cool, thanks. This is getting me interested in getting into the issue again.
Blech. Can I go back to talking about Ackermann functions and stuff?
420 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:02:36am |
re: #376 Walter L. Newton
OK… it’s the Friday morning snow picture… here is a picture of my driveway before I cleared off the snow from my car…
I’m warming it up now, windows still icy. Colorado, gotta love it.
I just showed the guys who spent last fall/winter in Denver with me your pic. We’re getting a kick out of it.
421 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:03:03am |
re: #416 vxbush
Something to think about in the healthcare debate: Folks are suggesting (quietly) that changing all our medical records to electronic database will save money as well. But beware who handles the database…
It’s not so quiet— it’s been a central claim of those championing the bill (and putting it forward) that the electronic database is supposed to save loads of money. On the other hand, it’s pretty clear that it will matter who handles that database and how expensive/time-consuming the transition is. Seems like a another potential pitfall.
422 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:03:45am |
MSNBC Video
Can you imagine getting on this thing to spend some quality time with 6,299 of your closest friends?
423 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:04:27am |
re: #419 vxbush
Blech. Can I go back to talking about Ackermann functions and stuff?
yeah, that was exactly how I felt about the issue for most the past months, after a brief period of immersing myself in 3200. Kinda surprised I can find it interesting again at all; I was pretty sick of it.
424 | FemNaziBitch Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:04:48am |
re: #415 SixDegrees
One problem with individual policies: the insurance companies lose the ability to reduce their outlays by pressuring large employers to change their workplace environments. In the case of manufacturing, pressure from insurance companies to enact all manner of workplace safety and reporting requirements has had the effect of dramatically reducing the rate of workplace accidents, which in turn makes insuring those workers cheaper since they have fewer accidents as a group. There are similar moves underway in white collar establishments, as well - smoking cessation incentives, weight loss incentives, adoption of ergonomic workstations and so on. These large-group advantages are lost when each individual applies for insurance on their own, for the most part - although it would still be possible to charge different rates for different occupations, as politically incorrect as that may be.
It’s a nice idea, but the end result will be higher premiums.
I understand the concept —volume pricing works because those who are actually working—obviously are healthy enough to do so—costs are lower. I don’t advocate individual policies either—I think insurance companies would have to offer so many “tailored policies” to compete that it would save any money.
This is one case in which union membership works —if the insurance comes thru the union. I also know small business owners who have banded together to form “professional organizations” to realize the benefit of better costs for insurance and supplies.
There has to be a way.
425 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:05:46am |
re: #421 iceweasel
Seems like a another potential pitfall. quid pro qou for past and future political backings
ftfy
just sayin!!
426 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:05:57am |
re: #417 imp_62
The healthcare bill is simply a stalking horse for all the anti-Bush sentiment and anti-Republican backlash generated over the past 8 years. Once average Americans, part of the broad middle class, start feeling the effects of the resultant legislation in their wallets and their health, there will be electoral repercussions.
That’s exactly why the GOP is so desperate to block it, by any means necessary.
428 | lurking faith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:06:08am |
re: #415 SixDegrees
I do understand the large-group cost savings principle. On the other hand, I’m not sure why health insurance would be involved in workplace safety issues - wouldn’t claims for workplace accidents and injuries fall under workers’ compensation instead of standard health insurance?
429 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:06:46am |
re: #425 sattv4u2
Seems like a another potential
pitfall.quid proqoufor past and future political backingsftfy
just sayin!!
Quo.
Returning the favour! :) And the quid pro quo.
430 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:07:20am |
My take on the health care issue is that if one has a lawn that has a few bald spots, one does not plow up the entire lawn just to reseed those bald spots. Reseed the bald spots, yes, but keep what is working already. Likewise, our health care system has its areas that need improvement, but let’s build on what is already working rather than tear the whole thing apart and replace it with something whose improvement is decidedly questionable.
Then, as has been pointed out, comparing the United States health care system with other nations’ is indeed comparing apples and oranges. For example, in Canada, prescription drugs are NOT covered by the socialized system they have, but I am willing to bet that prescription drugs are included in the costs of health care in the United States. Then, in Japan, no plastic surgery at all was covered when I was living there. However, sometimes plastic surgery is called for to correct conditions that have obvious health impacts that would be covered in the U.S. For example, I know of a little girl who got splashed in the face with boiling water, resulting in horrible injuries including the inability to close her eyes and the accompanying risk of blindness. Another case was a little boy whose face was blown off in a gas explosion. Neither of these cases was covered either by Kenko Hoken or by Shakai Hoken. (Sorry, I do not know the English equivalents.)
So making comparisons of health costs in different environments is indeed fraught with risks. Fix what is broken here.
431 | Four More Tears Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:08:22am |
NJ Law Enforcement Appear to Contradict Dobbs’ Version of Gunfire Incident
If it turns out that Lou really has created a fiction here just to attack his opponents then he’s far more despicable than I thought. This story is starting to make me sick to my stomach.
433 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:08:54am |
re: #429 iceweasel
Quo.
Returning the favour! :) And the quid pro quo.
Thank God I get paid for my broadcast engineering talents, not my typing/ spelling
434 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:09:16am |
435 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:09:49am |
re: #426 iceweasel
That’s exactly why the GOP is so desperate to block it, by any means necessary.
But they shouldn’t try to the point that it actually becomes the GOP’s fault that it fails, or that certain onerous provisions can be tied to GOP Congressmen. This legislation needs to be clearly identified with Pelosi and the President. As it should be; it is their baby. Disclaimer: I am an independent, and I have no great love (or respect) for either party as an organization - I vote for individuals, and my local Congressman, while a Democrat, is thoughtful and intelligent. His Republican predecessor was an awful hack.
436 | Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:10:35am |
re: #417 imp_62
The healthcare bill is simply a stalking horse for all the anti-Bush sentiment and anti-Republican backlash generated over the past 8 years. Once average Americans, part of the broad middle class, start feeling the effects of the resultant legislation in their wallets and their health, there will be electoral repercussions. Obama, after a lifetime of playing the long con, is suddenly going all short term. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. As Dennis Miller once said (loosely paraphrased): If you take politics too seriously, they will make you sick. If you take a step back, you can enjoy it and think sensibly about it.
re: #426 iceweasel
That’s exactly why the GOP is so desperate to block it, by any means necessary.
So the evil GOP knows full well that should there be problems with the coming changes to health care, voters will swing their way, yet they want to stop the upcoming debacle?
Doesn’t make sense.
437 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:10:59am |
re: #387 lawhawk
And, then we can improve competition among health care insurers by allowing them to operate across state lines. Then there is the issue of tort reform which should be but will not be addressed since many legislators have ties to trial lawyers.
438 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:11:54am |
re: #437 StillAMarine
And, then we can improve competition among health care insurers by allowing them to operate across state lines. Then there is the issue of tort reform which should be but will not be addressed since many legislators have ties to trial lawyers.
See, if the world would just listen to us on LGF, we would solve the world’s problems!
439 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:12:16am |
OT:
Fannie/Freddie continue goosing the real estate market by keeping the conforming mortgage loan limit at $729k, instead of dropping it back to a far lower amount that would increase the cost of lending on a jumbo.
That’s designed to keep costs down on large mortgages, but it really increases the risk to the lender and everyone else. It’s a bad idea that shifts the risk of loss. Again.
440 | CyanSnowHawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:25am |
re: #419 vxbush
Blech. Can I go back to talking about Ackermann functions and stuff?
Amy Acker? Man, I like her functions and stuff.
441 | CyanSnowHawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:54am |
442 | Irish Rose Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:56am |
re: #439 lawhawk
Can there be an OT on an overnight ocean thread?
443 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:14:27am |
444 | lawhawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:15:09am |
re: #426 iceweasel
I’d argue that the repercussions of higher taxes, fees, and worse health care (because with more people seeking care through insurance and a constant number of doctors, the time spent waiting for care will increase, time spent with doctors will decrease, and people will be unhappy with the level and quality of care.
That’s plenty good reason to oppose this program.
Moreover, in connection to the grandfather clause, I’d have to go back and check and see how HR3200 handles it. I don’t think the language is identical. In fact, I think HR3200 actually did cut off those insurance programs that weren’t grandfathered limiting you to the new government program. In that respect, this appears to be a slight benefit over HR3200 -but I need to verify first.
445 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:15:13am |
re: #440 CyanSnowHawk
Amy Acker? Man, I like her functions and stuff.
Nah, I’m a gal. I need a man…
/my husband will do just fine
446 | Irish Rose Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:16:02am |
Progresso tomato soup and a toasted ham and cheese sammie… mmm mmm.
447 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:17:52am |
re: #446 Irish Rose
Progresso tomato soup and a toasted ham and cheese sammie… mmm mmm mmm,, Barack Hussein Obama ,,, mmm ,, mmm ,, mmm!!! .
(had too!!)
448 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:24am |
re: #431 JasonA
NJ Law Enforcement Appear to Contradict Dobbs’ Version of Gunfire Incident
If it turns out that Lou really has created a fiction here just to attack his opponents then he’s far more despicable than I thought. This story is starting to make me sick to my stomach.
Think Progress was expressing some doubt too last night:
Several media sources have reported that shots were fired at the residence of CNN’s Lou Dobbs. While Dobbs and his anti-immigrant supporters were quick to jump to conclusions about the motive of the shooting, Sgt. Stephen Jones confirmed to ThinkProgress this morning that the New Jersey State Police are stilling “looking at all the possibilities” and that a hunting-related accident has not been ruled out.
Sgt. Jones, a spokesperson for the New Jersey State Police, confirmed that a bullet was found which struck the siding of Dobbs’ house. However, he pointed out that Dobbs’ residence is located in a “very rural” area. “With hunting season starting up,” such incidents are “not at all uncommon,” Jones told us.
Nonetheless, anti-immigrant groups are already claiming that “the lies and hate coming from these radical pro-illegal alien groups is now manifesting in the form of gunfire.” Dobbs was quick to start pointing fingers at Fox News’ Geraldo Rivera and “ethnocentric interest groups” for “creating an atmosphere” that led to a shot being fired at his house
(snip)
The New Jersey State Police’s investigation has not progressed to the point where it can confirm or deny Dobbs’ allegations. However, considering the fact that Dobbs has “repeatedly amplified the falsehood that undocumented immigrants are disproportionately violent,” it’s no surprise that he immediately connected the incident at his home to the immigration debate.
It’s still possible that he didn’t make it up, but that he jumped to a crazy conclusion. Which is only confirming what many have said about Dobbs all along— that he’s hostile and bigoted towards illegal aliens.
449 | Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:25am |
re: #431 JasonA
NJ Law Enforcement Appear to Contradict Dobbs’ Version of Gunfire Incident
If it turns out that Lou really has created a fiction here just to attack his opponents then he’s far more despicable than I thought. This story is starting to make me sick to my stomach.
I smelled a fish when I heard about this. From the article you link:
Interviews with the New Jersey State Police yielded a rather different assessment of the events described by Dobbs. In a phone interview conducted yesterday, Sgt. Stephen Jones, a NJ State Police spokesperson, chuckled out loud after he heard about Dobbs’ account of the gunfire incident. Jones commented that he “wouldn’t classify it [the gunfire incident] as very unusual.” He also confirmed that there are hunters in the area, and stated that, “at this time of year hunter [shooting] complaints go up.”
What I read at NJ dot com was that they found one single bullet that hit the “vinyl siding” but did not penetrate the structure. It was found on the ground. They also mentioned that it was shot from a rifle and since it didn’t not penetrate it was shot from long range.
Dobbs alluded that they shot at him in his radio rant. If so, he wasn’t literally shot at (which is still in serious question) since he was out of town. His transition to Geraldo Rivera and immigrant groups was pathetic.
The Dobbs are a rather unstable bunch. His wife, Debi, was once arrest at Newark Liberty International Airport for carrying a loaded handgun in her purse. This was only 4 years ago and well after 911. Anyone that brings a loaded weapon to an airport and then a security checkpoint is clueless to say the least.
450 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:34am |
re: #419 vxbush
This is becoming a recursive discussion …
451 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:20:23am |
re: #450 StillAMarine
This is becoming a recursive discussion …
Hey, recursive functions are easier to write…
/
452 | CyanSnowHawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:21:59am |
re: #451 vxbush
Hey, recursive functions are easier to write…
/
And much easier to turn into infinite loops with a simple mistake.
453 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:22:22am |
re: #428 lurking faith
I do understand the large-group cost savings principle. On the other hand, I’m not sure why health insurance would be involved in workplace safety issues - wouldn’t claims for workplace accidents and injuries fall under workers’ compensation instead of standard health insurance?
It isn’t unusual for insurance companies to share those costs, just as happens when, for example, both spouses work and hold coverage. It’s also not at all unusual for the same insurance company to offer both policies. Either way, reductions in claims translates into reductions in outlays.
On a tangential note, the fact of joint coverage resulting in a savings for insurance companies but not the mutual policy holders strikes me as odious. The wife and I, for example, both have similar insurance coverage and pay similar out-of-pocket amounts, while our respective companies pay similar premiums. If one of us gets sick, the cost gets split between the two insurance companies according to some super-secret formula - but my premiums aren’t reduced, and my copays and deductibles remain exactly the same. How fucked up is that? And dropping one policy isn’t a wise option: if one of us loses their job, the other can’t add them to their policy except during the once-yearly enrollment period - another rant-worthy practice that needs to be abolished.
454 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:22:25am |
re: #436 Racer X
So the evil GOP knows full well that should there be problems with the coming changes to health care, voters will swing their way, yet they want to stop the upcoming debacle?
Doesn’t make sense.
No, no. They are afraid that the bill will be a success and that it will translate into electoral wins for the Dems for years. Much of the objections being made are like the ones made when Social Security was introduced— I’ll see if I can find a link about that later, but the structure of the debate and even the attacks being made replicate the ones made about Social Security. There’s a reason for that.
455 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:22:35am |
re: #438 vxbush
See, if the world would just listen to us on LGF, we would solve the world’s problems!
Heck, my neighbor and I solved the world’s problems last weekend over a lot of beer. Unfortunately we do not remember our solutions. We wrote them down but cannot read our handwriting.
456 | SixDegrees Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:23:37am |
457 | wrenchwench Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:24:24am |
re: #447 sattv4u2
re: #446 Irish RoseProgresso tomato soup and a toasted ham and cheese sammie… mmm mmm mmm,, Barack Hussein Obama ,,, mmm ,, mmm ,, mmm!!! .
(had too!!)
That’s what I thought of when I saw this post:
re: #348 vxbushThere’s a function given there, but I don’t have the tools here to show that function. Needless to say, it grows really big, really fast.
Now, Graham’s number is icky in it’s own right. Let ^ represent an arrow. Define:
m^n = m*m*m*…*m (n times)
m^^n = m^m^m^…^m (n times)
m^^^n = m^^m^^m^^m^^…^^m (n times)then Graham’s number is g_64 = 3^…^3 (with 63 ^’s)
That’s nasty big.
458 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:25:06am |
re: #448 iceweasel
It’s still possible that he didn’t make it up, but that he jumped to a crazy conclusion. Which is only confirming what many have said about Dobbs all along— that he’s hostile and bigoted towards illegal aliens.
The watchword here is “illegal.”
459 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:26:10am |
re: #444 lawhawk
Moreover, in connection to the grandfather clause, I’d have to go back and check and see how HR3200 handles it. I don’t think the language is identical. In fact, I think HR3200 actually did cut off those insurance programs that weren’t grandfathered limiting you to the new government program.
Hmm— I don’t think it did, but I definitely could be wrong on that. It’s been awhile since I read it. I think what it did was establish a time period whereby all new plans would have to compete against the public option in the HIE. But as I say, it’s been a while since i read it. I’ll have to read the new one and your posts on it here again before I’m up to speed on this.
460 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:26:45am |
re: #452 CyanSnowHawk
And much easier to turn into infinite loops with a simple mistake.
…that eat up all available memory …
461 | vxbush Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:26:46am |
re: #457 wrenchwench
So if something is really, REALLY good, then you should say it’s m^^^m!
462 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:27:19am |
re: #455 StillAMarine
Heck, my neighbor and I solved the world’s problems last weekend over a lot of beer. Unfortunately we do not remember our solutions. We wrote them down but cannot read our handwriting.
You’re simply following an age-old tradition. Herodotus (IIRC) wrote about Persian town leaders who would only make decisions while in their cups. One would be designated to write down the decisions. The next day, they’d review what they’d decided and, if it still made sense, they’d enact the law.
Learning from history, all you guys really need to do is name a designated writer.
;-)
463 | Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:27:38am |
re: #454 iceweasel
No, no. They are afraid that the bill will be a success and that it will translate into electoral wins for the Dems for years. Much of the objections being made are like the ones made when Social Security was introduced— I’ll see if I can find a link about that later, but the structure of the debate and even the attacks being made replicate the ones made about Social Security. There’s a reason for that.
And we will all have rainbows and ponies and …
LOL!
The GOP, like pretty much everyone, is all for health care change. They are just extremely vocal about:
1. How much will it cost?
2. Will it make things better, or worse?
Caution is warranted. The first health care bill was a joke. The latest one is even more of a joke. It is too frickin huge! A better approach might be to do this in smaller chunks of legislation.
464 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:27:55am |
re: #50 iceweasel
Excellent. i have to see Zombieland; someone (FBV?) was telling me how great it is. Love zombie movies.
Better than great.
465 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:28:03am |
re: #458 StillAMarine
The watchword here is “illegal.”
Yes, but Dobbs has an extensive history of unhinged rants about them and bigoted statements— not merely reasonable criticisms and worries about them.
467 | Kragar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:28:53am |
468 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:29:11am |
re: #464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Better than great.
Excellent. I thought it was you. :)
Thanks again. I’m off for now, BBL.
469 | CyanSnowHawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:29:33am |
re: #460 StillAMarine
…that eat up all available memory …
Which is why having a handy process monitor utility like TaskInfo running when you test what you are developing is so invaluable. Don’t know how many errant tasks I’ve killed with that gem.
470 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:29:53am |
re: #384 Walter L. Newton
You did not say I should stop posting but one respondent did suggest it as a response. As you noted there have been several responses to my post. On the other hand the majority of objections all seem to be saying the same thing and I’ve made some attempt to respond.
As to “pimping my blog” I felt you might doubt me if I claimed I’d read it if I weren’t able to demonstrate some proof. And given I have seen a few other such, I mentioned it was there specifically in that context.
471 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:29:54am |
re: #463 Racer X
And we will all have rainbows and ponies and …
LOL!
The GOP, like pretty much everyone, is all for health care change. They are just extremely vocal about:
1. How much will it cost?
2. Will it make things better, or worse?Caution is warranted. The first health care bill was a joke. The latest one is even more of a joke. It is too frickin huge! A better approach might be to do this in smaller chunks of legislation.
I am far more cynical than you. As far as I can tell, the GOP, like everyone else, is all for getting re-elected so they can continue to dole out patronage dollars and jobs to the folks who got them elected in the first place. Talk about iterative loops.
472 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:30:22am |
re: #468 iceweasel
The “guest star” makes the movie worth the price of admission alone.
473 | Kragar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:30:34am |
re: #469 CyanSnowHawk
Which is why having a handy process monitor utility like TaskInfo running when you test what you are developing is so invaluable. Don’t know how many errant tasks I’ve killed with that gem.
PCViewer is also a good one
474 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:31:17am |
re: #471 imp_62
I am far more cynical than you. As far as I can tell, the GOP, like everyone else, is all for getting re-elected so they can continue to dole out patronage dollars and jobs to the folks who got them elected in the first place. Talk about iterative loops.
yep. the dems are too, of course. There are a few eternal truths; that is one of them.
Ok, really BBL now.
475 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:31:55am |
re: #472 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The “guest star” makes the movie worth the price of admission alone.
SPOILER ALERT
My son came back from that movie and said nothing but “You killed Bill Murray” for the rest of the afternoon.
476 | Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:32:16am |
re: #471 imp_62
I am far more cynical than you. As far as I can tell, the
GOPDemocrats, like everyone else, is all for getting re-elected so they can continue to dole out patronage dollars and jobs to the folks who got them elected in the first place. Talk about iterative loops.
Yes, it works both ways.
Politics.
477 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:33:05am |
478 | Kragar Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:33:06am |
re: #475 imp_62
SPOILER ALERT
My son came back from that movie and said nothing but “You killed Bill Murray” for the rest of the afternoon.
Purell?
479 | CapeCoddah Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:34:10am |
re: #454 iceweasel
No, no. They are afraid that the bill will be a success and that it will translate into electoral wins for the Dems for years. Much of the objections being made are like the ones made when Social Security was introduced— I’ll see if I can find a link about that later, but the structure of the debate and even the attacks being made replicate the ones made about Social Security. There’s a reason for that.
Hey All!!
IceWeasel, No one is remotely afraid this health care nightmare will be a success, What most of the country is correctly worried about is the certainty that this government program will be run just as carefully and efficiently AS Social Security, the largest ponzi scheme ever, or the post office. Amtrak is doing so wonderfully well with all the government interference. The only other business to be owned and operated by the government was a steel factory around the time of WWII. An abysmal failure.There is NO constitutional right to health care, and no one is owed health care. Neither is anyone denied health care, as ANYONE who walks into a hospital MUST be treated by federal law. What we have in Pelosi, Reid and their ilk is a truly rogue band of folks who were elected to REPRESENT the people, and who, after being given the job decided that “Representative” means “Keeper”. If this congress puts this on us, with most of the country saying no, and it fails, these people who have elected themselves our keepers should face criminal penalties for the lies and distortions that only those with working brain cell counts in the single digits are all for.
480 | subsailor68 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:34:53am |
re: #471 imp_62
I am far more cynical than you. As far as I can tell, the GOP, like everyone else, is all for getting re-elected so they can continue to dole out patronage dollars and jobs to the folks who got them elected in the first place. Talk about iterative loops.
Talk about cynical. I had a friend years ago whose rule of thumb was this:
If a politician, in asking for my vote, says “I’m running for office for two reasons - to line my pockets and the pockets of my friends. But, while I’m doing that, I’m going to give you better roads, bridges, buildings, and parks. And I’m only going to do that so you’ll vote for me again, and I can continue to line my pockets and the pockets of my friends.”
My friend said, ‘“that guy’s got my vote, because he’s the only politician I’ve ever heard tell the truth.”
481 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:35:03am |
re: #465 iceweasel
Yes, but Dobbs has an extensive history of unhinged rants about them and bigoted statements— not merely reasonable criticisms and worries about them.
This is indeed true. But “illegal” is still illegal. Trust me, I am more than willing to make a place here for many illegals, especially those who were hauled up to gringoland as children, or those who faced a decision of starvation or illegal entry into the United States. Then too, many of the illegal aliens are just the type of independent, hard working, and courageous people who would benefit the United States.
I have no mercy for the criminal element, though.
482 | RogueOne Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:35:50am |
FARK headline: FBI defends decision to shoot Dave Chappelle
483 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:35:57am |
re: #476 Racer X
Yes, it works both ways.
Politics.
Nothing in my original post should have been interpreted as exempting any politician from any party!
484 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:37:02am |
re: #469 CyanSnowHawk
I do the same thing with “ps -ef” and then an appropriate “kill” (-9 if necessary).
485 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:37:15am |
Alright, I gotta go for another bike ride. I love fall, and I feel fat.
486 | CapeCoddah Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:37:57am |
re: #463 Racer X
And we will all have rainbows and ponies and …
LOL!
The GOP, like pretty much everyone, is all for health care change. They are just extremely vocal about:
1. How much will it cost?
2. Will it make things better, or worse?Caution is warranted. The first health care bill was a joke. The latest one is even more of a joke. It is too frickin huge! A better approach might be to do this in smaller chunks of legislation.
Hey Racer,
The better approach would be to enact tort reform, and build a couple of new prisons in each state,then use them, exclusively for medical cheats. Doctors, administration and patients who cheat, thereby driving up the cost of insurance. A zero tolerance policy and the knowledge that we are gonna go back over records for, say, 10 years. There is no statute of limitations on fraud. One does not cut off a finger to remove a wart, one removes the wart. This democratic dog and pony show will remove the arm.
487 | NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:38:31am |
re: #481 StillAMarine
This is indeed true. But “illegal” is still illegal. Trust me, I am more than willing to make a place here for many illegals, especially those who were hauled up to gringoland as children, or those who faced a decision of starvation or illegal entry into the United States. Then too, many of the illegal aliens are just the type of independent, hard working, and courageous people who would benefit the United States.
I have no mercy for the criminal element, though.
I disagree. Send them back to get in line with the rest of the immigrants who want to come here legally (like my grandparents did). It’s not fair to the law-abiding people who want to become Americans.
488 | shutdown Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:38:56am |
re: #482 RogueOne
Oh, geez. I shouldn’t be laughing, but I am.
489 | CyanSnowHawk Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:40:12am |
re: #484 StillAMarine
I do the same thing with “ps -ef” and then an appropriate “kill” (-9 if necessary).
Sometimes you have to make due when using GUI challenged systems.
///
490 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:40:14am |
re: #381 SixDegrees
re: #381 SixDegrees
I’ve seen this argument many times. The problem with it is that it’s bullshit.
When computing these costs, apples are compared to oranges. The costs for countries with socialized medicine are based on whatever the government involved happens to pay out under their socialized plans. Whe costs are computed for the US, however, they include ALL medical procedures - every tummy tuck, liposuction, dick extension, boob job, botox injection, hair transplant and literally hundreds of other completely elective procedures that are not covered by any insurance plan - or by any nationalized plan (with extremely rare exceptions). This makes such comparisons worthless - the US costs are hyper-inflated by including all these elective medical procedures, while the same procedures are excluded from foreign tallies because they don’t show up on the government payout sheets, even though they may be just as widely performed.
There are additional problems with such comparisons, but this one in particular renders them completely meaningless.
No. I’ll use OECD as my demonstration of why that is a false claim - that it’s simple denial speaking. From the OECD’s source summary:
HC.1-9;HC.R.1 Expenditure on healthTotal expenditure on health is defined as the sum of expenditure on activities that – through application of medical, paramedical, and nursing knowledge and technology – has the goals of:
- Promoting health and preventing disease;
- Curing illness and reducing premature mortality;
- Caring for persons affected by chronic illness who require nursing care;
- Caring for persons with health-related impairments, disability, and handicaps who require nursing care;
- Assisting patients to die with dignity;
- Providing and administering public health;
- Providing and administering health programmes, health insurance and other funding arrangements.With this boundary, general public safety measures such as technical standards monitoring and road safety are not considered as part of expenditure on health.
Activities such as food and hygiene control and health research and development are considered health-related, but are not included in total health expenditure. Expenditures on those items are reported separately in the chapter on health-related functions.
Health can be divided into the following functional components of health care (HC) and health care-related (HC.R) items according to the International Classification for Health Accounts (ICHA) which is presented in the OECD manual “A System of Health Accounts”
OECD tries very hard to compare apples to apples, and makes much of their source data available for verification. I invite you to demonstrate the contrary.
491 | Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:42:46am |
Teenage girls can be SO cruel!
493 | iceweasel Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:53:51am |
re: #479 CapeCoddah
Hey All!!
IceWeasel, No one is remotely afraid this health care nightmare will be a success, What most of the country is correctly worried about is the certainty that this government program will be run just as carefully and efficiently AS Social Security, the largest ponzi scheme ever, or the post office.
hey Cape Coddah!
There are many reasonable worries and criticisms to have about health reform. But one of the meta-worries here, a major meta-worry from the point of view of party strategists, is that the passage of any bill is going to translate into major electoral success for the Dems for a long time.
Exactly as Social Security did. This is not to say that there aren’t problems with it, but by at least one measure it is the most successful program of all time:
Social Security — the largest and, along with Medicare and Medicaid, the health insurance programs for the elderly and the poor, the most successful federal program in history, measured by the 53 million people it benefits — has been in surplus uninterruptedly from 1983 to 2008.
Much more at this link.
This isn’t the link I had in mind— this article is very shallow-- but it does sketch some of the rough similarities in the debate over social security and the debate now.
Abstract away from all the detail of the bill, and look at the big picture in terms of political strategy, and it’s this: the GOP desperately wants to block health reform (even regardless of its content) because they fear that its passage, like the passage of social security, will lead to years of Dems in power.
Again, I’m not saying that there aren’t good objections and worries to have about it, or reasons to be opposed— i’m merely pointing out that in the big picture of political strategy at the metalevel, this is certainly one of the factors.
I’ll try to find that better link I had about the debates— it was a while ago. BBL!
494 | sattv4u2 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:53:53am |
re: #490 kirkspencer
OECD tries very hard to compare apples to apples, and makes much of their source data available for verification. I invite you to demonstrate the contrary.
When you (the OECD) sets what the paramaters are for “oranges” it’s a short skip and a jump to say they are comparing that to “oranges”
movable goal post, and all!
495 | kirkspencer Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:02:19am |
re: #494 sattv4u2
blink- huh?
OK, all you have to do is demonstrate the gates have been moved - that the oranges in other countries are apples here. That they are using different data in the same report to falsely demonstrate that the US is in trouble.
Pardon me, but until you do I’m going to put the argument in the same place I put that of climate change denialists who won’t accept some NOAA numbers because “they’re generated by people who want it to show for their political benefit.”
Facts. Show me the facts. I have presented what are supposed to be facts, please show me where they are falsified instead of saying it’s because of their political agenda. (Dear goo, you do know that we have used OECD data in other areas to show how we’re better than other nations? We’ve been doing that since 1961.)
496 | StillAMarine Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:06:03am |
re: #487 NJDhockeyfan
I disagree. Send them back to get in line with the rest of the immigrants who want to come here legally (like my grandparents did). It’s not fair to the law-abiding people who want to become Americans.
That is part of what I meant by, “make a place for” when referring to illegal immigrants. Heck, some of my ancestors came over here to avoid anti semitism, some came as colonialists, and some came over the Bering Land Bridge from Siberia.
497 | ryannon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:06:23am |
re: #452 CyanSnowHawk
And much easier to turn into infinite loops with a simple mistake.
My impression is that the system is so broke that it can’t be fixed. Too many mistakes, compounded by time and attempts to resolve problems which are too far-gone to resolve in a system which has grown too complex to even perceive in the totality of its functions and effects. Too many people running at white heat, partisan of one position or another, with no possibility of compromise. Too many end-of-the-world attitudes by those invested - democratically or by entitlement - with the power to act: “After me, the Deluge!”
I don’t see any way to balance it - an “improvement” of one part necessarily throws another portion out of phase. It reminds me of the predictions concerning the expected chaos of the climate before it goes totally out of control - each unbalanced factor feeding back into the whole to produce an overall systemic breakdown.
I admire those who are attempting to come to grips with a situation which I’ve judged as hopeless. My own solutions are modest and based on the small actions I can accomplish professionally and in my personal life. Rather than retreating into nihilism, I’ve chosen to accomplish discrete and often near-invisible actions towards what I consider to be the common good. Although small-scale, these actions have their own weight and momentum - and the advantage of being so incremental as to generally pass under the radar of antagonistic interests and forces.
I sometimes wonder how many other people have adopted the same strategy - and to what extent my analysis of the situation is lucid. I’m not fishing for replies here, simply thinking out loud, as it were.
As for the rest, good luck with it. I sincerely hope it all works out.