Outrageous Outrages Flowing at Much Higher Rate Than Previously Estimated

Wingnuts • Views: 6,859

I swear, I’m having a very difficult time keeping up with the Outrageous Outrages lately. They’re gushing out so fast from the bottomless Well of Outrage that I’m worried the blowout preventer is going to fail, contaminating a huge area with long-lived Outragium and necessitating a massive government effort to clean up the sticky, smelly, coagulated balls of nothingness.

The latest OO to spill all over the wingnut blogosphere, talk radio, and inevitably Fox News is that President Obama has done something uniquely awful again: he’s visiting Chicago during Memorial Day instead of giving a speech at Arlington National Cemetery as every other President has done since time immemorial.

Oh, wait. What?

In 2002, President George W. Bush was in France on Memorial Day and participated in ceremonies at Normandy (site of the D-Day landings) honoring the U.S. soldiers who fought and died in World War II.

President George H.W. Bush (himself a World War II veteran) attended no ceremonies at Arlington National Cemetery during his four years in office. From 1990 through 1992 he spent the Memorial Day weekend vacationing in Kennebunkport, Maine, while Vice-President Dan Quayle laid a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

President Ronald Reagan was away from Arlington on Memorial Day on four occasions during his eight years in office.

If giving a speech at Arlington on Memorial Day is a measure of patriotism, then the most patriotic president ever was Bill Clinton. He was at Arlington for every Memorial Day of his two presidential terms.

By the way, President Obama will be attending a Memorial Day ceremony at Abraham Lincoln National Cemetery in Elwood.

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583 comments
1 recusancy  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:23:56pm

IOKIYAR

2 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:24:11pm

Elwood!

(Imagine I'm John Belushi)

3 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:24:27pm

The difference is a Democrat not showing up means something!

Republican presidents don't have to prove their commitment to the troops.

4 Kragar  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:25:41pm

This is just silly.

We all know people never let anything like facts get in the way of a good rage.

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:26:35pm

Farakahn and Rev Wright are closing all the Republican owned car dealers to silence dissent of the New World Government while bribing Seestak to keep the Nirth Certifikit hidden!

6 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:30:19pm

Arlington is all about narrative and optics and it annoys some folks when the President just decides to do what HE wants to do and not what they think is important.
You know it is not just on the conservative side with just the crazy people, there are the normal pundits like Broder or Peggy "concern face" Nonnan (who is concerned that the Obama administration is over and done for) who are getting a bit shrill.
Along with Carville and Matthews and Maureen Dowd who all seem to want the President to be their daddy who makes it all better for them.
While not outrageous outrage it is working it's way there...the President is just not emo enough for these people.

I'm sure in someway this is all good for John McCain....

7 oklahoma  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:31:01pm

The Republicans have 6 1/2 years of outrage left to keep up the the hyperventilating the left did over every move the evil Booosh made. Come to think of it more, because they are still blaming the evil Booosh.

8 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:31:43pm

re: #7 oklahoma

Tu quoque only 7 posts in. That may be a record. Congrats.

9 oklahoma  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:32:23pm

re: #8 Obdicut

Doesn't make it incorrect does it?

10 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:32:31pm

re: #7 oklahoma

The Republicans have 6 1/2 years of outrage left to keep up the the hyperventilating the left did over every move the evil Booosh made. Come to think of it more, because they are still blaming the evil Booosh.

The Mighty Boosh???
Awesome show.

11 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:32:42pm

Abraham Lincoln Cemetery? Well, there you go. Obama hates white people.

12 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:32:53pm

re: #9 oklahoma

By its very nature, its always incorrect.

13 recusancy  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:33:33pm

re: #9 oklahoma

Doesn't make it incorrect does it?

logical fallacy = incorrect

14 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:33:47pm

re: #7 oklahoma

The Republicans have 6 1/2 years of outrage left to keep up the the hyperventilating the left did over every move the evil Booosh made. Come to think of it more, because they are still blaming the evil Booosh.

Well, the wingnuts managed to pack in 8 years worth if insignificant outrage in the first 9 months of the Obama presidency. That included outrage over what Obama put in his tuna fish sandwich.

15 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:33:58pm

re: #11 Cato the Elder

I hear he's for whites being allowed to marry blacks.

16 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:34:01pm

Well, desperation sent me down to the corner store, to buy a bottle of Thunderbird and a tin of copenhagen. Sipping the former, I dried out the latter a bit, and insufflated same. Much better.

How is everyone?

17 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:34:21pm

re: #10 Varek Raith

The Mighty Boosh???
Awesome show.

EELS!

EELS!

EELS!

EELS!

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:35:00pm

re: #9 oklahoma

Doesn't make it incorrect does it?

hahaha welcome to being the object of our delighted scorn

19 bratwurst  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:35:22pm

re: #14 Gus 802

That included outrage over what Obama put in his tuna fish sandwich.

dijon mustard = ELITIST

20 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:35:30pm

re: #16 Guanxi88

I just uh... have this energy drink :D

21 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:35:49pm

re: #11 Cato the Elder

Abraham Lincoln Cemetery? Well, there you go. Obama hates white people.

The neo-Confederates rally! AKA Abraham Lincoln "the tyrant" as heard at this years XPAC conference of CPAC. I kid you not.

22 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:35:59pm
I swear, I’m having a very difficult time keeping up with the Outrageous Outrages lately.

It's really not that hard, Charles. You just need to get up a few hours earlier and read the Overnight comments to get a feel for where the nontroversy of the day is.

23 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:36:04pm

re: #20 WindUpBird

Thunderbird and Chew. The poor mans speedballing?

24 freetoken  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:36:08pm

re: #19 bratwurst

Arugula = COASTAL ELITIST!!

25 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:36:23pm

re: #9 oklahoma

Doesn't make it incorrect does it?

Incorrect? It'd be a subjective argument about who is more hysterical. I think that the right-wing right now is more hysterical than the left-wing ever was under Bush. Far more. Not just with minor outrageous like this, but the idiocy of birtherism, the whole 'socialist' nonsense, and the growing anti-war, isolationist insanity of the Birchers and the Paulians.

But even if the left had been as hysterical during the Bush years, there's little point to you bringing it up except as a creaky, tired tu quoque pseudo-defense. It's the same lame old bullshit that gets pulled anytime Charles points out an incident of right-wing nuttiness.

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:36:25pm

re: #3 windsagio

The difference is a Democrat not showing up means something!

Republican presidents don't have to prove their commitment to the troops.

I've seen that said in all seriousness here a couple of times.

27 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:36:42pm

re: #23 windsagio

Thunderbird and Chew. The poor mans speedballing?

I use well vodka and VISO, which is also pretty poor-mans :D

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:37:09pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Farakahn and Rev Wright are closing all the Republican owned car dealers to silence dissent of the New World Government while bribing Seestak to keep the Nirth Certifikit hidden!

How the hell did Sestak get the Nirth Certifikat?

29 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:37:12pm

Bush is not evil, but he is dumb as dirt.

30 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:37:17pm

re: #26 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh believe me I know.

Its disgusting.

31 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:37:21pm

re: #26 SanFranciscoZionist

I've seen that said in all seriousness here a couple of times.

I wish I could say I was surprised.

32 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:37:23pm

re: #9 oklahoma

Doesn't make it incorrect does it?

My understanding is just as Charles called out the crazy left for what they did under Bush he will now call out the crazy right under Bush. Its wrong to coddle these idiots as if they deserve the right to be jackasses just because their guy lost the election.

33 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:37:48pm

re: #25 Obdicut

By the way, I love Feisty Obdicut :D

34 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:37:57pm

re: #7 oklahoma

The Republicans have 6 1/2 years of outrage left to keep up the the hyperventilating the left did over every move the evil Booosh made. Come to think of it more, because they are still blaming the evil Booosh.

I blame Cheney. I've decided I like George Bush. There, I said it in public.

35 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:38:11pm

re: #23 windsagio

Thunderbird and Chew. The poor mans speedballing?

Not chaw, my friend, but shoved up the nostrils, as per Beau Brummel.

36 blueraven  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:38:28pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

How the hell did Sestak get the Nirth Certifikat?

Farrakhan!

37 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:38:38pm

re: #32 jamesfirecat

More to the point, even if he's right and the left was INSANE AND RACIST the way the right is tending right now, it still wouldn't justify the right being INSANE AND RACIST.

38 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:38:53pm

re: #14 Gus 802

Well, the wingnuts managed to pack in 8 years worth if insignificant outrage in the first 9 months of the Obama presidency. That included outrage over what Obama put in his tuna fish sandwich.

Angel wings?

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:39:03pm

re: #7 oklahoma

The Republicans have 6 1/2 years of outrage left to keep up the the hyperventilating the left did over every move the evil Booosh made. Come to think of it more, because they are still blaming the evil Booosh.

I think the right has made up the difference amply in quantity, if not duration, already.

Also, we started with a deficit, after eight years of anti-Clinton hysterics.

Alternatively, we could just decide to be grownups already, as a nation. I realize this is unlikely, but it's still an excellent option.

40 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:39:03pm

re: #35 Guanxi88

Snuff is classy!

Thunderbird... is not.

You're blowing my mind here :D

41 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:39:11pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

How the hell did Sestak get the Nirth Certifikat?

Bill Clinton gave it to him. He's had it all along.

/

42 oklahoma  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:39:18pm

Well, first I wasn't discrediting Charles point, so my statement wasn't an ad hominen against his observation which is true. I was merely pointing out the same thing has been going on with the left for a while. Not that it matters.

43 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:39:51pm

re: #16 Guanxi88

Well, desperation sent me down to the corner store, to buy a bottle of Thunderbird and a tin of copenhagen. Sipping the former, I dried out the latter a bit, and insufflated same. Much better.

How is everyone?

Brother, your hardcore.

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:39:58pm

I have this awesome Onion book (tenacity of the Cockroach) full of (real) interviews with outsider celebrities, like Henry Rollins, Weird Al, Andy Partridge, Devo... The one with Alan Moore is so awesome. They're all awesome, really. More personality in that book than anything.

45 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:39:59pm

re: #42 oklahoma

Visual aid

46 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:40:35pm

re: #42 oklahoma

Do you actually believe you're making an intelligent point?

My God, it's trying to think, how sweet

47 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:40:55pm

re: #42 oklahoma

Well, first I wasn't discrediting Charles point, so my statement wasn't an ad hominen against his observation which is true. I was merely pointing out the same thing has been going on with the left for a while. Not that it matters.

Your last sentence is entirely correct.

Whatever the left did or didn't do under Bush in no ways writes the right a blank check to misbehave under Obama.

48 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:40:55pm

re: #44 WindUpBird

Thats the AV club one, a totally different beast than the Normal Onion.

I was reading about Moore some lately, as I've been in a 'superhero wikipedia' kick again. He really doesn't like the idea of Superman.

49 oklahoma  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:41:09pm

re: #45 windsagio

Visual aid

Like I said, I was not trying to discredit Charles argument. You can decide if the fallacy fits my statement.

50 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:41:15pm

re: #46 WindUpBird

Good lord the zing!

51 recusancy  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:41:19pm

re: #42 oklahoma

Well, first I wasn't discrediting Charles point, so my statement wasn't an ad hominen against his observation which is true. I was merely pointing out the same thing has been going on with the left for a while. Not that it matters.

See: Two Wrongs Make a Right

52 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:41:19pm

re: #45 windsagio

Visual aid

Image: nou-57914.jpg

53 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:41:21pm

re: #40 windsagio

Snuff is classy!

Thunderbird... is not.

You're blowing my mind here :D

Have you ever heard Guanxi88's stories about his attire? Verrry interesting guy imo.

54 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:41:44pm

re: #53 Stanley Sea

I have not!

/storytime!

55 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:41:45pm

re: #48 windsagio

Thats the AV club one, a totally different beast than the Normal Onion.

I was reading about Moore some lately, as I've been in a 'superhero wikipedia' kick again. He really doesn't like the idea of Superman.

haha you gotta read his interview! He's got awesome views on politics and religion. He's so brilliantly curmudgeonly.

56 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:42:08pm

re: #23 windsagio

Thunderbird and Chew. The poor mans speedballing?

Coffee and marijuana.

57 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:42:18pm

re: #55 WindUpBird

Yeah, his outlook seems a little dark.

58 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:42:39pm

re: #40 windsagio

Snuff is classy!

Thunderbird... is not.

You're blowing my mind here :D

Snuff is great stuff; copenhagen is a poor substitute for my preferred nose-dust, which I've left at my office.

Thunderbird's a truly gratifying thing, the virtues of which are much under-appreciated.

(BTW, the best snuff I've ever had, and I've had a lot, would be a toss-up between bernard's Kostlich, a superior German snuff, and NTSU - a dirt-cheap South African snuff favored by Zulus and used widely to this day. If I had to pick, i'd take the NTSU - a lot of complexity there, and at a very favorable price; the german snuffs are kinda cloying and always end up making my nose run.)

59 oklahoma  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:42:48pm

re: #47 jamesfirecat

Your last sentence is entirely correct.

Whatever the left did or didn't do under Bush in no ways writes the right a blank check to misbehave under Obama.

I think that's what they call politics these days, hence the saying "politics ain't beanbag."

60 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:08pm

re: #57 windsagio

Yeah, his outlook seems a little dark.

It's actually less dark! It's more like he's just gleefully antagonistic about his celebrity, thinks its ridiculous, and uses it to fuck with people.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:17pm

re: #10 Varek Raith

The Mighty Boosh???
Awesome show.

OK, one BDS story for you all. My father was out to lunch with friends of his, a business associate, and his wife. The wife, let's call her Mireille, is a French lady of a certain age, tres chic et soignee, who was at the time studying to become a U.S. citizen.

Coming back to her seat from the lady's room, Mireille tripped and fell. She was somewhat dazed, and the men were trying to figure out if they should rush her to the ER, or if she was all right. Her husband kept asking her questions--what day is it, etc.--and she kept brushing him off.

My father said, "OK, Mireille, let's try one of your questions from your citizenship test. Who is the President of the United States?"

Mireille pulled herself up to her full height, and said, with great disdain, "Zee eedeeot Boosh!"

They decided she was OK to finish lunch.

62 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:22pm

re: #58 Guanxi88

NOSE DUST!

Upding :D

63 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:26pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

How the hell did Sestak get the Nirth Certifikat?

It was given to him by ACORN as part of a deal to leak oil into the gulf so they could get funding for mind controlling wind farms!

64 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:36pm

re: #58 Guanxi88

Do you have a small bejeweled box, or a oversized ring with a secret compartment you keep it in?


/please for the love of god say yes!

//My vices are so boring :(

65 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:40pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the right has made up the difference amply in quantity, if not duration, already.

Plus they have a whole TV network devoted to this stuff.
Yeah adults would be nice, but we live in a Jerry Springer.
Bread and circuses.

66 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:40pm

re: #49 oklahoma

Like I said, I was not trying to discredit Charles argument. You can decide if the fallacy fits my statement.

Now we don't even need an apostrophe to form the possessive singular of "Charles"?

67 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:43:56pm

re: #19 bratwurst

dijon mustard = ELITIST

Dijon on a tune fish sandwich? That's disgusting. Condiments are evil. We must rid ourselves of this President.

68 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:44:03pm

re: #54 windsagio

I have not!

/storytime!


Trench coats and fedoras.

Correct me if I'm wrong Guanxi

69 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:44:08pm

re: #59 oklahoma

I think that's what they call politics these days, hence the saying "politics ain't beanbag."

You're right, these days it's Ku Klux Klan paintball.

70 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:44:41pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

Now we don't even need an apostrophe to form the possessive singular of "Charles"?

Now he's done it...

71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:45:08pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

It was given to him by ACORN as part of a deal to leak oil into the gulf so they could get funding for mind controlling wind farms!

Wait, is it the wind that's controlling our minds? Or the windmills?

72 Lidane  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:45:19pm

re: #34 Jeff In Ohio

I blame Cheney. I've decided I like George Bush. There, I said it in public.

I never personally hated Bush. I just hated his policies. Hell, I even defended Dubya from some of the crazier memes on the left when he was in office, just because they were so ridiculous.

Cheney, on the other hand? I can't say I've ever remotely liked him. At all.

73 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:45:21pm

re: #70 Varek Raith

Now he's done it...

Death by a thousand redlines!

/

74 oklahoma  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:45:38pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

Now we don't even need an apostrophe to form the possessive singular of "Charles"?

Oh great, grammar class on Sunday.

75 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:45:41pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

Argh! To be consistent I have to complain about you correcting him, but in this case I enjoy it greatly!

76 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:46:07pm

re: #64 windsagio

Do you have a small bejeweled box, or a oversized ring with a secret compartment you keep it in?

/please for the love of god say yes!

//My vices are so boring :(

I have two snuff boxes - one a sterling silver one with gold wash interior, the other a simple horn pinch-box; the former for dress occasions, the latter for daily carry and use.

At my desk, I've got three or four jade snuff-bottles, along with a nice capacious table-top snuff box.

Of the set, i prefer the simplicity and honesty of the little horn one, which is the one i most frequently carry and use.

77 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:46:28pm

re: #74 oklahoma

Oh great, grammar class on Sunday.

I don't suppose you're a YoungLibertarian, are you?

78 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:46:53pm

re: #74 oklahoma

I'd reboot man. People make comments like the one you made up there all the time on here, and get crap for it.

With the crowd on just this second, you're just gonna get slapped around if you keep this up.

Back off, don't let yourself get pissed, and try again :D

/yes, seriously friendly advice.

79 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:47:03pm

re: #72 Lidane

I never personally hated Bush. I just hated his policies. Hell, I even defended Dubya from some of the crazier memes on the left when he was in office, just because they were so ridiculous.

Cheney, on the other hand? I can't say I've ever remotely liked him. At all.

Bush as a neighbor or reletive?
Very cool.
President?
Not so cool...

Chaney is a scary man just waiting for his chance to live out his evil overlord dreams....

80 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:47:08pm

re: #68 Stanley Sea

Trench coats and fedoras.

Correct me if I'm wrong Guanxi

Only until about November, then it was the nice cashmere top-coat (three buttons, of course, single-breasted). Nice muted charcoal grey material.

81 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:47:21pm

re: #42 oklahoma

Well, first I wasn't discrediting Charles point, so my statement wasn't an ad hominen against his observation which is true. I was merely pointing out the same thing has been going on with the left for a while. Not that it matters.

You're wrong. The 'left', whatever you consider that to be, may have been ridiculously negative and given to unfair and untrue demonising of Bush during his presidency. Some elements were nutty and spectacularly crazy. That much is true.

However, to say that it is the same is wrong. It manifestly is not. There is no equivalence to this level of entrenched, organised, and blatantly false conspiracy-mongering and hate that we see right now. Nor, might I add, is there any equivalence in the violence that is springing from the rhetoric.

82 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:47:23pm

re: #77 WindUpBird

I seriously doubt it. Just stepped into the TQ trap unprepared >>

83 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:47:52pm

re: #74 oklahoma

Oh great, grammar class on Sunday.

Bad grammar is an almost infallible indicator of poor thinking.

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:47:57pm

re: #38 Jeff In Ohio

Angel wings?

He invited some news show to spend an afternoon with him and Michelle and the kids. Turns out the girls like Grey Poupon and gherkins in their tuna sandwiches.

This led to some hysteria in certain quarters, because Grey Poupon is elitist (this was too much for one of Malkin's commentators, who pointed out that he buys his in bulk at Smart and Final), and what the hell IS a gherkin anyway?

It really was too much for several of Malkin's commenters. One man signed off with what I consider the best line of the election: "If he does not use mayonnaise, he is not fit to lead."

85 oklahoma  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:48:22pm

re: #78 windsagio

Thanks. I'll come back another time to play.

86 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:48:39pm

Damn you WUB, you logged of IM when you saw me coming :P

87 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:48:47pm

re: #72 Lidane

I never personally hated Bush. I just hated his policies. Hell, I even defended Dubya from some of the crazier memes on the left when he was in office, just because they were so ridiculous.

Cheney, on the other hand? I can't say I've ever remotely liked him. At all.

Hated his policies, but I've come to conclude that he's the Nigel Tufnel of the GOP, and I can live with that. "What's wrong with being sexy?"

88 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:49:03pm

re: #85 oklahoma

>

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:49:06pm

re: #56 Jeff In Ohio

Coffee and marijuana.

Now, that actually sounds quite pleasant, if I didn't hate pot quite so much.

90 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:49:34pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

He invited some news show to spend an afternoon with him and Michelle and the kids. Turns out the girls like Grey Poupon and gherkins in their tuna sandwiches.

This led to some hysteria in certain quarters, because Grey Poupon is elitist (this was too much for one of Malkin's commentators, who pointed out that he buys his in bulk at Smart and Final), and what the hell IS a gherkin anyway?

It really was too much for several of Malkin's commenters. One man signed off with what I consider the best line of the election: "If he does not use mayonnaise, he is not fit to lead."

Hey, I've got a rule myself. Anyone that puts mayonnaise on liverwurst isn't fit to lead.

//

91 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:49:58pm

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Bad grammar is an almost infallible indicator of poor thinking.

Wow, I'm with stupid.

92 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:51:12pm

re: #81 Renaissance_Man

You're wrong. The 'left', whatever you consider that to be, may have been ridiculously negative and given to unfair and untrue demonising of Bush during his presidency. Some elements were nutty and spectacularly crazy. That much is true.

However, to say that it is the same is wrong. It manifestly is not. There is no equivalence to this level of entrenched, organised, and blatantly false conspiracy-mongering and hate that we see right now. Nor, might I add, is there any equivalence in the violence that is springing from the rhetoric.

Absolutely.

I certainly don't recall any Geometry teachers plotting the trajectory of a bullet to President Bush. (I cannot let this one go)

93 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:51:23pm

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Bad grammar is an almost infallible indicator of poor thinking.

You can have my superfluous commas when you pry them from my...
keyboard.
Or something.

94 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:51:24pm

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Its really not, at least not in the internet age.

Slovenly writing habits != bad thinking when you don't have time to edit and reedit.

95 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:51:32pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

He invited some news show to spend an afternoon with him and Michelle and the kids. Turns out the girls like Grey Poupon and gherkins in their tuna sandwiches.

This led to some hysteria in certain quarters, because Grey Poupon is elitist (this was too much for one of Malkin's commentators, who pointed out that he buys his in bulk at Smart and Final), and what the hell IS a gherkin anyway?

It really was too much for several of Malkin's commenters. One man signed off with what I consider the best line of the election: "If he does not use mayonnaise, he is not fit to lead."

Well, he's certainly not fit to be a parent. Mustard on tuna...I suppose they put mayonnaise on hamburgers and catsup on hotdogs.

This country is going to hell, and I'm calling the tune.

96 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:51:50pm

re: #92 Stanley Sea

And you shouldn't!

97 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:52:03pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

and what the hell IS a gherkin anyway?

It really was too much for several of Malkin's commenters. One man signed off with what I consider the best line of the election: "If he does not use mayonnaise, he is not fit to lead."

I love the mayo line.

Is a gherkin a midwest thing? It seemed odd these folks had no idea what it was. I knew exactly what it was..baby gherkin, sweet pickles cut up and used instead of relish or if you don't have relish on hand.
Old fashioned word?

But of course I'm a real American and make my tuna fish with Miracle Whip.
Only.
Mayo for everything else.
MW for tuna and egg salad sandwich's.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:53:22pm

re: #72 Lidane

I never personally hated Bush. I just hated his policies. Hell, I even defended Dubya from some of the crazier memes on the left when he was in office, just because they were so ridiculous.

Cheney, on the other hand? I can't say I've ever remotely liked him. At all.

I always thought Bush was a rather nice person. And I did go to bat for him against two separate pieces of nonsense, one being the "My Pet Goat" thing, and the other being some article by a guy who insisted that Bush was pathological for liking to clear brush.

99 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:53:24pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, one BDS story for you all. My father was out to lunch with friends of his, a business associate, and his wife. The wife, let's call her Mireille, is a French lady of a certain age, tres chic et soignee, who was at the time studying to become a U.S. citizen.

Coming back to her seat from the lady's room, Mireille tripped and fell. She was somewhat dazed, and the men were trying to figure out if they should rush her to the ER, or if she was all right. Her husband kept asking her questions--what day is it, etc.--and she kept brushing him off.

My father said, "OK, Mireille, let's try one of your questions from your citizenship test. Who is the President of the United States?"

Mireille pulled herself up to her full height, and said, with great disdain, "Zee eedeeot Boosh!"

They decided she was OK to finish lunch.

The standard quick mental status exam given to patients in the emergency room is to see if they are alert and oriented to time, person, and place. Typically you ask, what's your name, where are you, and who is the President of the US?

A few months ago I asked a man these questions. His response to the third was silence. I asked again. He said, 'I'm not gonna say his damn name.'

I checked him off. Unfortunately, being a wingnut is not yet categorised in the DSM-IV. Should be, though.

100 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:53:29pm

re: #97 webevintage

Regional dialect. Altho lately 'gherkins' have been showing up on shelves here as part of national brands, I never saw in the PNW before the late 90s.

101 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:54:36pm

re: #7 oklahoma

The Republicans have 6 1/2 years of outrage left to keep up the the hyperventilating the left did over every move the evil Booosh made. Come to think of it more, because they are still blaming the evil Booosh.

See, I'm of a mind that we should be better than that.
Set an example, pave the way.
Use our brains.

102 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:55:34pm

It is just amazing that these wingnuts did not even do a brief google search to cover their asses before spewing vitriolically about Obama's absence from Arlington.

Probably because they are set on spew mode and know that nobody in their target audience (the spewees) would really care.

How this for an outrage, folks?

Arlintgton used to be the private estate of Gen. Robert E. Lee, leader of Confederate Army of Norther Virginia, therefore, a visit a sekrit coded nod towards supporting slavery!.

/

103 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:55:42pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

My opinion of the bush presidency is something that would take extreme levels of drunkenness to pry from me >>

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:56:12pm

re: #79 webevintage


Chaney is a scary man just waiting for his chance to live out his evil overlord dreams...

In 'Against All Enemies', Dick Clark describes contacting an Army major who was in charge of some part of the White House evacuation/lockdown on 9/11. The phone was picked up by someone who snarled at him before giving the phone over to the man in question.

"Who was that asshole who answered the phone?" Clark asked.

"That was the vice president, sir," said the major in charge.

105 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:56:35pm

re: #94 windsagio

Its really not, at least not in the internet age.

Slovenly writing habits != bad thinking when you don't have time to edit and reedit.

Just because the internet age allows those with slovenly writing habits equal time, instead of condemning them to the obscurity of history as would have happened in a more enlightened age, doesn't mean we have to accept it.

106 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:57:32pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

I always thought Bush was a rather nice person. And I did go to bat for him against two separate pieces of nonsense, one being the "My Pet Goat" thing, and the other being some article by a guy who insisted that Bush was pathological for liking to clear brush.

Well, to defend this guy, you have to be pathological with brush, or it will rule your life and property. Cut it back 1ft, it grows 3ft. There's no way nice with brush, it must be dealt with firmly and decisively.

107 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:57:44pm

re: #102 ralphieboy

There's more to it than that, theres apparently a tradition of also honoring a memorial to confederate dead that was put in by Sons of confederate veterans and the Daughters of the Confederacy! So yeah.

~~~

It also fits the pattern. The republicans seem to be treating media now the way old comic books treated kids. There is no past or future, there's just the story that we think will do the most damage right now!

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:57:49pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

He invited some news show to spend an afternoon with him and Michelle and the kids. Turns out the girls like Grey Poupon and gherkins in their tuna sandwiches.

This led to some hysteria in certain quarters, because Grey Poupon is elitist (this was too much for one of Malkin's commentators, who pointed out that he buys his in bulk at Smart and Final), and what the hell IS a gherkin anyway?

It really was too much for several of Malkin's commenters. One man signed off with what I consider the best line of the election: "If he does not use mayonnaise, he is not fit to lead."

Also, another blogger picked up Malkin's "What the hell is a gherkin?" headline with "Dear Michelle, A Gherkin Is A Pickle, And You Are A Moron".

109 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:58:07pm

re: #94 windsagio

Its really not, at least not in the internet age.

Slovenly writing habits != bad thinking when you don't have time to edit and reedit.

It really is. You're the one who thinks you "don't have time" to be clear, concise and coherent on the internet.

Bad writing is bad writing, period.

110 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:58:26pm

re: #95 Jeff In Ohio

Well, he's certainly not fit to be a parent. Mustard on tuna...I suppose they put mayonnaise on hamburgers and catsup on hotdogs.

This country is going to hell, and I'm calling the tune.

Bill: What if you mix the mayonnaise in the can, WITH the tunafish? Or... hold it! Chuck! I got it! Take LIVE tuna fish, and FEED 'em mayonnaise! Oh this is great.
[speaks into tape recorder]
Bill: Call Starkist!

Night Shift was an awesome movie!!!

111 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:58:45pm

re: #105 Renaissance_Man

Being pedantic about grammar when the meaning is currently clear is either pointless posturing to make yourself feel superior, or an intentional attack when you can't actually address the contents of the argument.

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:58:49pm

re: #90 Gus 802

Hey, I've got a rule myself. Anyone that puts mayonnaise on liverwurst isn't fit to lead.

//

They may be fit to lead, I'm just less likely to have lunch with them.

113 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:59:32pm

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Bad grammar is an almost infallible indicator of poor thinking.

I agree!

I know exactly how poor my thinking is from the number of grammatical errors I make!

Now I'm being silly with the previous sentence, but I agree people should pay attention to details, until the details become habit.

114 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:59:44pm

re: #111 windsagio

Being pedantic about grammar when the meaning is currently clear is either pointless posturing to make yourself feel superior, or an intentional attack when you can't actually address the contents of the argument.


lets leve grammer out of this...

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:59:49pm

re: #93 Varek Raith

You can have my superfluous commas when you pry them from my...
keyboard.
Or something.

I'm trying to cure myself of using comma splices when I comment on LGF. If I'm going to yell at my students about them, I should be consistent.

116 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 12:59:55pm

re: #109 Cato the Elder

It really is. You're the one who thinks you "don't have time" to be clear, concise and coherent on the internet.

Bad writing is bad writing, period.

Emphasis mine, obviously. You can be clear, concise and coherent with sloppy grammar.

What's important on a blog is clarity and speed. Style helps, but is secondary.

117 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:00:22pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

They may be fit to lead, I'm just less likely to have lunch with them.

What does one put on liverwurst?
(just asking since I don't eat liverwurst....I'm assuming mustard. but I find yellow mustard to be gross in the extreme)

118 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:00:28pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

They may be fit to lead, I'm just less likely to have lunch with them.

Stewie: Jo-LENE. I have an army to raise and I must get to Managua at once. I require a window seat and an in-flight Happy Meal. BUT NO PICKLES. OH, GOD HELP YOU IF I FIND PICKLES!

119 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:00:29pm

re: #111 windsagio

This came out a bit stronger than I meant, which is actually pretty funny considering the subject >>

Score one against sloppy writing!

120 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:00:51pm

re: #111 windsagio

Being pedantic about grammar when the meaning is currently clear is either pointless posturing to make yourself feel superior, or an intentional attack when you can't actually address the contents of the argument.

I seem to have touched a nerve >>

121 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:01:26pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

I always thought Bush was a rather nice person. And I did go to bat for him against two separate pieces of nonsense, one being the "My Pet Goat" thing, and the other being some article by a guy who insisted that Bush was pathological for liking to clear brush.

Using landscaping as a method of relaxation? How dare he!

I guess my dad is pathological too.

122 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:01:47pm

re: #116 windsagio

Emphasis mine, obviously. You can be clear, concise and coherent with sloppy grammar.

What's important on a blog is clarity and speed. Style helps, but is secondary.

You really fail to convince.

Speed = stupid.

123 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:02:14pm

re: #120 Cato the Elder

You really did. Longstanding pet peeve.

On the other hand, see my 119 ;)

124 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:02:15pm

re: #117 webevintage

What does one put on liverwurst?
(just asking since I don't eat liverwurst...I'm assuming mustard. but I find yellow mustard to be gross in the extreme)

A cat.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:02:43pm

re: #97 webevintage

I love the mayo line.

Is a gherkin a midwest thing? It seemed odd these folks had no idea what it was. I knew exactly what it was..baby gherkin, sweet pickles cut up and used instead of relish or if you don't have relish on hand.
Old fashioned word?

But of course I'm a real American and make my tuna fish with Miracle Whip.
Only.
Mayo for everything else.
MW for tuna and egg salad sandwich's.

I think it's a regionalism, yes. I knew what it was, but I don't ever use it in daily speech. And I hate pickles and pickle relish in sandwiches anyway, so I'm not much of an expert.

I use mayo, and sometimes chopped red onion, or Vidalia onion.

The Malkin thread was actually fascinating. Americans have very strong feelings about what goes into a tuna sandwich.

126 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:03:17pm

re: #122 Cato the Elder

You really fail to convince.

Speed = stupid.

these are blog posts, not English essays. Please. Let's get back to trashing Bush or someone else on the right, which is what we came here to do

/

127 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:03:26pm

re: #122 Cato the Elder

Nothing is so awful as having a long/interesting/well-written/whatever post that is no longer relevant to the conversation by the time you hit 'post this comment'.

128 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:03:37pm

re: #97 webevintage

I love the mayo line.

Is a gherkin a midwest thing? It seemed odd these folks had no idea what it was. I knew exactly what it was..baby gherkin, sweet pickles cut up and used instead of relish or if you don't have relish on hand.
Old fashioned word?

But of course I'm a real American and make my tuna fish with Miracle Whip.
Only.
Mayo for everything else.
MW for tuna and egg salad sandwich's.

I know exactly what gherkins are.
But I will usually say sweet pickle, because I don't know how to pronounce "gherkin".

129 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:03:54pm

re: #126 ralphieboy

I at least am having fun :p

I suspect Cato is as well, but if not we can stop... This stuff is interesting to discuss tho'.

130 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:04:09pm

re: #126 ralphieboy

these are blog posts, not English essays. Please. Let's get back to trashing Bush or someone else on the right, which is what we came here to do

/

Y? Pushing Catos buttons is fun.

131 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:04:18pm

If Obama had gone to Arlington:

1. He would have gone to play golf afterwards which would have led to outrage.

2. They would have counted his iterations of the word "I".

3. He would not have used the phrase, "Islamic extremism" followed by extreme consternation.

4. The would have emailed a photo of Obama at another event not wearing a tie.

5. They would have emailed a photo of him with his hand 2.67 inches from the proper salute.

Wingnuts are a very consistent group.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:04:31pm

re: #102 ralphieboy

It is just amazing that these wingnuts did not even do a brief google search to cover their asses before spewing vitriolically about Obama's absence from Arlington.

Probably because they are set on spew mode and know that nobody in their target audience (the spewees) would really care.

How this for an outrage, folks?

Arlintgton used to be the private estate of Gen. Robert E. Lee, leader of Confederate Army of Norther Virginia, therefore, a visit a sekrit coded nod towards supporting slavery!.

/

They don't check, they get the outrage rolling, and it takes on a life of its own after that, sailing on like a Ship of the Damned, or at least a Ship of Those Who Really Hate Barack Obama.

133 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:04:42pm

re: #123 windsagio

You really did. Longstanding pet peeve.

On the other hand, see my 119 ;)

So, you would argue that Pam Geller's drunken misspelled grammar atrocity of a blog is not indicative of insanity, because we know what she means?

Interesting.

134 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:05:15pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

They don't check, they get the outrage rolling, and it takes on a life of its own after that, sailing on like a Ship of the Damned, or at least a Ship of Those Who Really Hate Barack Obama.


Then it goes over to the "report the controversy" mode...

135 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:05:33pm

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist

I think it's a regionalism, yes. I knew what it was, but I don't ever use it in daily speech. And I hate pickles and pickle relish in sandwiches anyway, so I'm not much of an expert.

I use mayo, and sometimes chopped red onion, or Vidalia onion.

The Malkin thread was actually fascinating. Americans have very strong feelings about what goes into a tuna sandwich.

Or pie vs. cake.
And didn't Matthews make a stink because the President ask for some OJ in the morning at a diner?
Maybe it was tea.
I drink hot tea I brew every morning from loose leaves.
Not a true American.
I know.

136 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:05:45pm

re: #25 Obdicut

Incorrect? It'd be a subjective argument about who is more hysterical. I think that the right-wing right now is more hysterical than the left-wing ever was under Bush. Far more. Not just with minor outrageous like this, but the idiocy of birtherism, the whole 'socialist' nonsense, and the growing anti-war, isolationist insanity of the Birchers and the Paulians.

But even if the left had been as hysterical during the Bush years, there's little point to you bringing it up except as a creaky, tired tu quoque pseudo-defense. It's the same lame old bullshit that gets pulled anytime Charles points out an incident of right-wing partisan nuttiness.

Slight alteration. Charles gets attacked by hyper-partisans when even he points out that their party misbehaved, regardless of what party it is. Being an anti-idiotarian means you get it coming and going.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:05:45pm

re: #106 Jeff In Ohio

Well, to defend this guy, you have to be pathological with brush, or it will rule your life and property. Cut it back 1ft, it grows 3ft. There's no way nice with brush, it must be dealt with firmly and decisively.

I think the writer wasn't a Westerner, let's put it like that.

138 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:05:47pm

re: #126 ralphieboy

these are blog posts, not English essays.

Speak for yourself, Mr. Can't Find the Shift Key.

139 Lidane  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:06:17pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

I always thought Bush was a rather nice person.

He seemed like an okay guy on a personal level. I'd probably even like the guy if I ever met him. I just thought he was a lousy governor and an even worse President.

And I did go to bat for him against two separate pieces of nonsense, one being the "My Pet Goat" thing, and the other being some article by a guy who insisted that Bush was pathological for liking to clear brush.

I had many, many online debates and shouting matches over the "Bush=Hitler" idiocy, since that was just ridiculous and offensive IMO. I also constantly argued against the Truther morons who swore up and down that Bush knew and didn't do anything to stop the 9/11 attacks. I'll admit I was mad over the fact that the warnings from the Clinton people about bin Laden didn't seem to be taken seriously, but that's not the same as believing that they knew about and deliberately didn't stop an attack.

I also got hot under the collar about Katrina, but I directed my anger at anyone and everyone who could have done something more, regardless of party or position.

140 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:06:23pm

re: #127 windsagio

Nothing is so awful as having a long/interesting/well-written/whatever post that is no longer relevant to the conversation by the time you hit 'post this comment'.

Uh-huh.

141 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:07:05pm

re: #138 Cato the Elder

Speak for yourself, Mr. Can't Find the Shift Key.


Shift for yourself...

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:07:10pm

re: #117 webevintage

What does one put on liverwurst?
(just asking since I don't eat liverwurst...I'm assuming mustard. but I find yellow mustard to be gross in the extreme)

I don't eat liverwurst either. If you choose to, I also don't care what you put on it. It won't help.

143 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:07:26pm

re: #109 Cato the Elder

I think much faster than I type. A great writer requires both thinking and typing skills, but then a great writer is working on a script or a novel. In any case no time pressure.

Like others here I have had thoroughly checked posts fall flat. The thread had moved on.

144 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:07:29pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

rhymes with jerkin'.

145 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:07:38pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Oh c'mon. You know I don't mean that :P The content of her ravings are crazy, the grammar, etc aside.


Also, there are limits.

Going after somebody for simple misspellings or improper abbreviations (or punctuation) is very different than going after someone for crazy run-on sentences, all-caps atrocities, etc.

146 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:07:56pm

re: #131 Gus 802

If Obama had gone to Arlington:

1. He would have gone to play golf afterwards which would have led to outrage.

2. They would have counted his iterations of the word "I".

3. He would not have used the phrase, "Islamic extremism" followed by extreme consternation.

4. The would have emailed a photo of Obama at another event not wearing a tie.

5. They would have emailed a photo of him with his hand 2.67 inches from the proper salute.

Wingnuts are a very consistent group.

Indeed. To the hyper partisan, the other side can do no right. It's a trap I've sometimes fallen into myself, and one I am now working to avoid.

147 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:08:07pm

re: #138 Cato the Elder

Speak for yourself, Mr. Can't Find the Shift Key.

I love "grammar wars" being a sloppy writer myself they do amuse me.

148 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:08:10pm

re: #145 windsagio

Oh c'mon. You know I don't mean that :P The content of her ravings are crazy, the grammar, etc aside.

Also, there are limits.

Going after somebody for simple misspellings or improper abbreviations (or punctuation) is very different than going after someone for crazy run-on sentences, all-caps atrocities, etc.

You're no fun.
:)

149 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:08:38pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

I know exactly what gherkins are.
But I will usually say sweet pickle, because I don't know how to pronounce "gherkin".

Isn't that swee pickle in your area?

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:08:49pm

re: #121 Soap_Man

Using landscaping as a method of relaxation? How dare he!

I guess my dad is pathological too.

One thing I learned from the article is that Laura has a project restoring native grasses to their property. George's part of the project is to chainsaw appropriate areas so she can start work on them.

151 ryannon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:08:58pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't eat liverwurst either. If you choose to, I also don't care what you put on it. It won't help.

Sliced pineapple?

152 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:09:03pm

re: #147 webevintage

I love "grammar wars" being a sloppy writer myself they do amuse me.

sucks. Syntax

153 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:09:12pm

re: #143 Rightwingconspirator

I think much faster than I type. A great writer requires both thinking and typing skills, but then a great writer is working on a script or a novel. In any case no time pressure.

That's what an editor is for.
None will edit for you on the internet for comment threads.
Mores the pity.

154 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:09:23pm

re: #148 Varek Raith

We all have our pet peeves and hangups.

Its just a painful coincidence that two of Catos hangups are bad grammar and spelling, and one of mine is complaining about bad grammar and spelling.


A match made in Hell. >>

155 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:09:25pm

re: #111 windsagio

Being pedantic about grammar when the meaning is currently clear is either pointless posturing to make yourself feel superior, or an intentional attack when you can't actually address the contents of the argument.

If you have no counterargument to a fool other than to point out his slovenly writing, then yes, that line of argument is juvenile. However, if you are also shooting his argument down, it doesn't hurt to also point out that his fly is open and he could use some time on a stairmaster, so to speak.

Communication has forms. You don't get to make them up as you go. If people want to communicate in a text-based medium, the least they can do is make an effort to learn the language.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:09:26pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

I know exactly what gherkins are.
But I will usually say sweet pickle, because I don't know how to pronounce "gherkin".

I think it's GUR-kin.

157 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:09:51pm

re: #150 SanFranciscoZionist

One thing I learned from the article is that Laura has a project restoring native grasses to their property. George's part of the project is to chainsaw appropriate areas so she can start work on them.


that is an admirable division of labor in a family project. My wife never trusted me with a chainsaw.

158 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:10:13pm

re: #56 Jeff In Ohio

Coffee and marijuana.

Breakfast?
//

159 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:10:44pm

re: #157 ralphieboy

that is an admirable division of labor in a family project. My wife never trusted me with a chainsaw.

Guanxi88 has a flamethrower.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:10:46pm

re: #135 webevintage


I drink hot tea I brew every morning from loose leaves.
Not a true American.
I know.

Given the lengths our Founding Fathers were willing to go to over taxes on their loose-leaf tea, I cannot agree with that statement.

161 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:11:07pm

re: #155 Renaissance_Man

I'd rather thoroughly attack their argument and call them stupid/misguided/dishonest about that, rather than get distracted by grammar ;)

162 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:11:24pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

Guanxi88 has a flamethrower.

awesome....

163 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:11:33pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

Rhymes with "Merkin".

164 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:11:52pm

re: #153 webevintage

That's what an editor is for.
None will edit for you on the internet for comment threads.
Mores the pity.


Some sites have a function that will allow you to go back in and re-edit your post for up to 15 minutes after posting, but I think Charles has not included that because it would lead to the inevitable retroactive changing of posts to prolong pointless discussions about speling erorrs.

165 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:11:59pm

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

Breakfast?
//

Add ramen noodles and you have dinner. So flexible.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:12:17pm

re: #151 ryannon

Sliced pineapple?

Knock yourself right out.

167 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:12:46pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

Guanxi88 has a flamethrower.

Filled with cognac for a field flambé?

/

168 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:12:48pm

re: #161 windsagio

I'd rather thoroughly attack their argument and call them stupid/misguided/dishonest about that, rather than get distracted by grammar ;)

Well, you continually annoy me with your periodless sentences and pointless, infantile emoticons such that I rarely bother with your arguments.

Just sayin'.

169 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:13:03pm

re: #144 Jeff In Ohio

rhymes with jerkin'.

thanks!
I would have said "gerkin".

170 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:13:05pm

re: #163 windsagio

Rhymes with "Merkin".

He was jerkin his gherkin while banging to the Merkins.

171 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:13:20pm

re: #165 Jeff In Ohio

Add ramen noodles and you have dinner. So flexible.


Been outta the country for a while. How many packets of ramen noodles can you get for a buck these days? Used to be between 6-8 depending on the dupermarket back in my student days.

172 Racer X  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:13:24pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Bush is not evil, but he is dumb as dirt.

Compared to Biden, Bush is a MENSA level 3 wizard.

173 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:13:25pm

re: #168 Cato the Elder

Yeah, we just weren't meant to be.

You wanna inform the parents, or should I?

174 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:13:28pm

re: #149 Stanley Sea

Isn't that swee pickle in your area?

ha!
Yep.

175 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:13:47pm

re: #168 Cato the Elder

Well, you continually annoy me with your periodless sentences and pointless, infantile emoticons such that I rarely bother with your arguments.

Just sayin'.

:(
.
.
.
Alright, I'm done teasing you.
.
.
.
:)

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:14:28pm

re: #172 Racer X

Compared to Biden, Bush is a MENSA level 3 wizard.

MENSA gives 'wizard' ratings? Maybe I do want to try and join after all.

177 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:14:29pm

re: #153 webevintage

Now there you have a classic love hate relationship. Writer/editor. I love my editor. Except when I'm reading the rework.

178 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:14:41pm

Here is a little essay I composed just now for another forum where I post...

------

In our modern world there is a fringe (but effective) collection of radical adherents to a form of radical Christianity and another group of adherents to a form of radical Islam.

One of these groups, radical Christians, place a hatred for practices like abortion and a hatred for what they see as "immoral" government at the forefront of a theocratic philosophy that moves them to want to violently, if need be, effect changes in the government of the United States.

Those with a narrow understanding of history, sees this as some recent and newly frightening concept, where as the actuality is that this radical form of Christian thinking has been in existence for almost 200 years in this country (see British-Israelism, early Mormon thought, KKK, Covenant groups, Identity groups, Jawhist groups etc.) and has influenced small pockets of Christians for decades. Much of the anti-government rhetoric of modern day radical Christians stem from the concepts presented by these aforementioned sects. These groups are localized and basically unorganized, loners so to speak, and their "outreach" deal primarily with the continental United States.

Another one of these groups, radical Islam, place a hatred for most non-Islamic cultures at the forefront of a theocratic philosophy that moves them to want to violently, if need be, effect changes in the governments of the world.

Those with a narrow understanding of history, sees this as some recent and isolated concept, where as the actuality is that this radical form of Islamic thinking has been in existence for almost 1400 years, worldwide (see the Quran, the Hadith's etc. for the origins of these concepts.). Much of the anti-western society rhetoric of modern day radical Islamist stem from the "rules" and laws presented in these aforementioned texts. These groups are worldwide and very active, supported by both individual religious leaders (Mullahs and Imams' ) and antion states and their "outreach" deal specifically with much of the non-Islamic world.

Both of these world views, radical Christians and radical Islamist must be dealt with, and has nothing to do with who has the "biggest stick." And if it is necessary to kill members of either of these groups in order to prevent them from accomplishing their missions then it will not be a matter of counting how many were killed. What will matter is stopping the advance of these radicals... period.

That's the situation. Endless reexaminations of the wrongs of centuries past, while a constructive exercise, does very little in addressing the realities of the current crop of radicals and terrorists, who have a mission now, a mission that includes indiscriminate murders of innocent people and the disruption of society.

Idealism reigns during time of peace, realism takes precedence in time of conflict, that's a simple truth which is unchangeable. I compliment those who have this level of idealism, but it will not solve anything.

179 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:14:51pm

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

Breakfast?
//

I just had breakfast.
I know, it is 3:00 pm here.
Big pot of tea and half a box of Lemonades Girl Scout cookies.

180 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:14:55pm

re: #169 reine.de.tout

thanks!
I would have said "gerkin".

The g is hard...

181 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:15:01pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

Guanxi88 has a flamethrower.

And you've got Tree Feeder Droids, so it's even. Though yours used the corpses of Jedi you've killed for mulch.... >:D

182 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:15:18pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

I think it's GUR-kin.

I misunderstood Jeff in Ohio then - I thought he said "jerkin".
Looking back, he said it rhymes with "jerkin".
So yours is correct.

183 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:15:22pm

re: #172 Racer X

Compared to Biden, Bush is a MENSA level 3 wizard.

Do they have scrolls of Isaac's Greater Missile Storm?

184 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:15:36pm

re: #171 ralphieboy

Been outta the country for a while. How many packets of ramen noodles can you get for a buck these days? Used to be between 6-8 depending on the dupermarket back in my student days.

I always stole mine.

I was a reallllllly bad boy.

185 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:15:44pm

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

tl;dr

The most annoying 4 letters on the internet.

186 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:15:49pm

re: #143 Rightwingconspirator

I think much faster than I type. A great writer requires both thinking and typing skills, but then a great writer is working on a script or a novel. In any case no time pressure.

Like others here I have had thoroughly checked posts fall flat. The thread had moved on.

The internet is forever. What we write is not only broadcast to a potentially huge audience, but also can return years and years later. Much like teens sending out naked pictures of themselves, what we type is forever. And even if it is anonymous now, it may not always be.

If anything, even grammar considerations, makes people think about what they're writing a bit more, I am all for it.

187 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:16:15pm

re: #186 Renaissance_Man

The internet is forever. What we write is not only broadcast to a potentially huge audience, but also can return years and years later. Much like teens sending out naked pictures of themselves, what we type is forever. And even if it is anonymous now, it may not always be.

If anything, even grammar considerations, makes people think about what they're writing a bit more, I am all for it.

Amen, brother.

188 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:16:50pm

re: #179 webevintage

I just had breakfast.
I know, it is 3:00 pm here.
Big pot of tea and half a box of Lemonades Girl Scout cookies.

Heh, the wife took the kids out with grandpa to the local Catholic Whirlygig Festival. I'm eating cake and drinking coffee.

189 Racer X  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:16:57pm

re: #179 webevintage

I just had breakfast.
I know, it is 3:00 pm here.
Big pot of tea and half a box of Lemonades Girl Scout cookies.

/health nuts. Bah!

190 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:17:09pm

re: #186 Renaissance_Man

Except the forms are changing, and are changing fairly rapidly. What seems proper right now will seem increasingly stilted as time goes on >>

191 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:17:22pm

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

Here is a little essay I composed just now for another forum where I post...

---

In our modern world there is a fringe (but effective) collection of radical adherents to a form of radical Christianity and another group of adherents to a form of radical Islam.

One of these groups, radical Christians, place a hatred for practices like abortion and a hatred for what they see as "immoral" government at the forefront of a theocratic philosophy that moves them to want to violently, if need be, effect changes in the government of the United States.

Those with a narrow understanding of history, sees this as some recent and newly frightening concept, where as the actuality is that this radical form of Christian thinking has been in existence for almost 200 years in this country (see British-Israelism, early Mormon thought, KKK, Covenant groups, Identity groups, Jawhist groups etc.) and has influenced small pockets of Christians for decades. Much of the anti-government rhetoric of modern day radical Christians stem from the concepts presented by these aforementioned sects. These groups are localized and basically unorganized, loners so to speak, and their "outreach" deal primarily with the continental United States.

Another one of these groups, radical Islam, place a hatred for most non-Islamic cultures at the forefront of a theocratic philosophy that moves them to want to violently, if need be, effect changes in the governments of the world.

Those with a narrow understanding of history, sees this as some recent and isolated concept, where as the actuality is that this radical form of Islamic thinking has been in existence for almost 1400 years, worldwide (see the Quran, the Hadith's etc. for the origins of these concepts.). Much of the anti-western society rhetoric of modern day radical Islamist stem from the "rules" and laws presented in these aforementioned texts. These groups are worldwide and very active, supported by both individual religious leaders (Mullahs and Imams' ) and antion states and their "outreach" deal specifically with much of the non-Islamic world.

Both of these world views, radical Christians and radical Islamist must be dealt with, and has nothing to do with who has the "biggest stick." And if it is necessary to kill members of either of these groups in order to prevent them from accomplishing their missions then it will not be a matter of counting how many were killed. What will matter is stopping the advance of these radicals... period.

That's the situation. Endless reexaminations of the wrongs of centuries past, while a constructive exercise, does very little in addressing the realities of the current crop of radicals and terrorists, who have a mission now, a mission that includes indiscriminate murders of innocent people and the disruption of society.

Idealism reigns during time of peace, realism takes precedence in time of conflict, that's a simple truth which is unchangeable. I compliment those who have this level of idealism, but it will not solve anything.

Bravo, Walter. That deserves a place of the Featured Pages.

192 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:17:45pm

re: #184 Jeff In Ohio

I always stole mine.

I was a reallly bad boy.


How many could you stuff into your trousers at once then?

193 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:18:18pm

re: #190 windsagio

Except the forms are changing, and are changing fairly rapidly. What seems proper right now will seem increasingly stilted as time goes on >>

Not as stilted as your willful neglect of the full stop.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:18:26pm

re: #179 webevintage

I just had breakfast.
I know, it is 3:00 pm here.
Big pot of tea and half a box of Lemonades Girl Scout cookies.

I'm still in my bathrobe, and it's past one here.

Yesterday was the Bridal Shower of the Damned.

Today, I am resting.

I have some coffee.

195 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:18:55pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

To be honest, its because it feels 'wrong' to have both a period and an emote.

Weird, eh?

197 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:19:38pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm still in my bathrobe, and it's past one here.

Yesterday was the Bridal Shower of the Damned.

Today, I am resting.

I have some coffee.

OH DO TELL!

198 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:19:47pm

re: #184 Jeff In Ohio

I always stole mine.

I was a reallly bad boy.


A song for you then:

Youtube Video

We swore if we ever got rich, we would pay the Mini Mart back...

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:19:50pm

re: #188 Jeff In Ohio

Heh, the wife took the kids out with grandpa to the local Catholic Whirlygig Festival. I'm eating cake and drinking coffee.

What is a Catholic Whirlygig Festival, and should my local parish have one?

200 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:20:13pm

re: #196 windsagio

dammit forgot the shadowbox.

FixT

201 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:20:21pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm still in my bathrobe, and it's past one here.

Yesterday was the Bridal Shower of the Damned.

Today, I am resting.

I have some coffee.

Did you have to be the hostess?
Just asking.
I deeeeespise bridal showers.

202 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:20:21pm

Ah.
Our daily rainstorm has arrived to cool us down.

203 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:20:30pm

Merkin.

204 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:20:39pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm still in my bathrobe, and it's past one here.

Yesterday was the Bridal Shower of the Damned.

Today, I am resting.

I have some coffee.

Banshee marrying the zombie?

205 Racer X  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:20:53pm

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

Excellent summation Walter.

I would ease up on the violence aspect. It did not work with Muslims, and won't work with the radical Christians. Mockery is the best weapon in our arsenal. Continuing to compare the radical Christians to the radical Muslims is effective.

Heads go splodey on both sides.

206 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #190 windsagio

Except the forms are changing, and are changing fairly rapidly. What seems proper right now will seem increasingly stilted as time goes on >>

In the undisciplined minds of those who never learned the correct forms in the first place, maybe.

Ultimately, the argument can be made that communicating in correct form to those who do not understand it is on one level pointless, because the point of communication is then lost - if I don't type l337speak to those who speak l337speak, then I am communicating just as ineffectively as they are. To that I say, tempering your writing to communicate to the illiterate is pointless. That's like simplifying your composition for the deaf, or using less subtle colours so the blind can appreciate your art.

207 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:21:20pm

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

What is a Catholic Whirlygig Festival, and should my local parish have one?

Oh my!
Yes they should!
Our parish makes a TON of money at the yearly fall fair.

208 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:21:32pm

re: #198 ralphieboy

I believe they came in packets of 10.

209 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:22:31pm

re: #206 Renaissance_Man

The whole problem with you argument is that the 'correct forms' aren't standard. There's a huge problem (especially to me) with holding the English language to the standards of the 1890s.

210 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:22:31pm

re: #201 webevintage

Did you have to be the hostess?
Just asking.
I deeespise bridal showers.

Why do people think everyone owes them presents just for getting married?

211 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:22:45pm

re: #202 reine.de.tout

Ah.
Our daily rainstorm has arrived to cool us down.

That has become our daily ritual too here along I-30.
Normally we do not have "daily" storms like LA, but the last few weeks each afternoon a small storm (or just rain) will pulse up. I can hear the thunder right now.
The good thing is that I have not had to water anything even though the afternoons have been around 90.

212 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:23:25pm

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

What is a Catholic Whirlygig Festival, and should my local parish have one?

You know...carnival rides, corndogs, sunburns and halter tops. I thought all the Parish's did this for money raisers...maybe it's a midwest thing, never paid attention till I married into the family.

213 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:23:45pm

re: #202 reine.de.tout

Ah.
Our daily rainstorm has arrived to cool us down.

And here comes the daily severe thunderstorm warning, 15 minutes after it started, as if I can't look out my window and see it!

Gotta love it.

214 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:24:14pm

re: #209 windsagio

The whole problem with you argument is that the 'correct forms' aren't standard. There's a huge problem (especially to me) with holding the English language to the standards of the 1890s.

I'm okay with standing athwart netspeak yelling, 'Stop!'

215 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:24:39pm

On the grammar wars:

According to the Society for Neuroscience, as many as 43.5 million Americans are dyslexic. What is more interesting is that, according to the Dyslexia Research Institute, only 5 percent of those with dyslexia are properly diagnosed and treated.

Now I am not saying that anyone/everyone here or anywhere else that types with poor grammar is dyslexic. But speaking as some who was diagnosed in high school, I can say that poor grammar/spelling skills is not a valid reason to basically accuse someone of being stupid. Nor is it a reason to dismiss someone's argument because of sloppy writing.

(steps of soap box)

216 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:24:53pm

re: #211 webevintage

That has become our daily ritual too here along I-30.
Normally we do not have "daily" storms like LA, but the last few weeks each afternoon a small storm (or just rain) will pulse up. I can hear the thunder right now.
The good thing is that I have not had to water anything even though the afternoons have been around 90.

And the bad news (for us anyhow) is that the grass grows at least 2 inches every day when it's raining, and then it rains, and it can't get mowed.
Argh

217 Racer X  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:24:57pm

re: #210 Cato the Elder

Why do people think everyone owes them presents just for getting married?

It's a celebration for a young couple's new life together. Friends and family want to help them get started on a wonderful journey. Young people tend to have very little in the form of housewares and general "stuff". That comes later, when you fill the garage and have to park the car outside in the rain.

218 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:25:54pm

re: #215 Soap_Man

On the grammar wars:

According to the Society for Neuroscience, as many as 43.5 million Americans are dyslexic. What is more interesting is that, according to the Dyslexia Research Institute, only 5 percent of those with dyslexia are properly diagnosed and treated.

Now I am not saying that anyone/everyone here or anywhere else that types with poor grammar is dyslexic. But speaking as some who was diagnosed in high school, I can say that poor grammar/spelling skills is not a valid reason to basically accuse someone of being stupid. Nor is it a reason to dismiss someone's argument because of sloppy writing.

(steps of off soap box)

See what I mean?

219 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:26:11pm

re: #217 Racer X

It's a celebration for a young couple's new life together. Friends and family want to help them get started on a wonderful journey. Young people tend to have very little in the form of housewares and general "stuff". That comes later, when you fill the garage and have to park the car outside in the rain.

Who would want to celebrate imprisonment?
Weird customs you humans have.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:26:13pm

re: #197 Stanley Sea

OH DO TELL!

Well... let me give you this piece by piece.

...we got lost in Sacramento. We showed up an hour and a half later than we planned.

...we needed to use the kitchen to prep sandwiches and quiche. The 'hostess' was not happy.

...we proceeded to work, while the 'hostess' went, took a shower, and did her makeup.

221 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:26:18pm

re: #213 reine.de.tout

And here comes the daily severe thunderstorm warning, 15 minutes after it started, as if I can't look out my window and see it!

Gotta love it.

We get those most afternoons till mid July. One of the few upbeat moments of humid weather.

222 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:26:30pm

re: #218 Soap_Man

See what I mean?

You fell off the soap box.

223 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:26:37pm

re: #215 Soap_Man

On the grammar wars:

According to the Society for Neuroscience, as many as 43.5 million Americans are dyslexic. What is more interesting is that, according to the Dyslexia Research Institute, only 5 percent of those with dyslexia are properly diagnosed and treated.

Now I am not saying that anyone/everyone here or anywhere else that types with poor grammar is dyslexic. But speaking as some who was diagnosed in high school, I can say that poor grammar/spelling skills is not a valid reason to basically accuse someone of being stupid. Nor is it a reason to dismiss someone's argument because of sloppy writing.

(steps of soap box)


I used to work for the RDI until I got an IUD...

224 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:27:22pm

I'm out for a bit.
Later!

225 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:27:48pm

re: #210 Cato the Elder

Why do people think everyone owes them presents just for getting married?

Youtube Video

Tradition!

Same reason so many people think they have to get married or that only one man and one woman can be considered a marriage.

226 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:27:59pm

re: #217 Racer X

It's a celebration for a young couple's new life together. Friends and family want to help them get started on a wonderful journey. Young people tend to have very little in the form of housewares and general "stuff". That comes later, when you fill the garage and have to park the car outside in the rain.

My standard wedding gift is a promissory note towards future lawyer's fees.

227 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:28:57pm

re: #210 Cato the Elder

Why do people think everyone owes them presents just for getting married?

It's necessary for the newlyweds to fill their closets up with shit they can't throw out and will never use.

228 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:29:01pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

...we proceeded to work, while the 'hostess' went, took a shower, and did her makeup.

Oh my.
Are you a caterer or was this a friend thing?

229 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

My standard wedding gift is a promissory note towards future lawyer's fees.

You're evil, Cato.

230 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:29:24pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

My standard wedding gift is a promissory note towards future lawyer's fees.

You need to add 'Humbug!' at the end of some of these posts randomly.

231 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:29:27pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

My standard wedding gift is a promissory note towards future lawyer's fees.


Entangled estate issues is the thing that keeps a lot of couples together. If you have nothing to divvy up, then splitting up is just too easy...

232 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:31:25pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

So far, so awfully typical. I didn't know you had to drive to Sacramento! geeze.

233 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:33:05pm

re: #227 Jeff In Ohio

It's necessary for the newlyweds to fill their closets up with shit they can't throw out and will never use.

It is a bit like watching that House Hunters on HGTV and all these newly married folks looking for house with stainless steel counters, two sink vanities (why it is just more to clean. ours holds the hair dryer and prescription bags we haven't thrown away yet) and huge master bedroom suites. Plus they don't really want to do any work.

I prefer the HH International to the one for America. The last one was a gay couple from Brighton who moved to Spain and bought this lovely (and small by American standards) villa.

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:33:35pm

re: #201 webevintage

Did you have to be the hostess?
Just asking.
I deeespise bridal showers.

Little bit of background, before I go on. Officially, the shower was being co-hosted by the bride's sister, myself, and a friend who I will call Batya. Sister decided it would be held at her home in Sacramento. Sister then, instead of contacting us and asking for help, complained to the bride about how overwhelmed she was, and the bride asked us to help out. So we contacted her, and agreed to bring various foods, and I said I would check out bridal shower games.

Some more detail. Sister is a control freak, who likes to think of herself as being Martha Stewart and Emily Post rolled into one. Nothing and no one is ever good enough. I have contact with this woman briefly, every couple of years, because she is the only sister of one of my best friends.

So, Wednesday night, I come home from work and find messages, telling me that Sister has had an aneurysm, she is NOT OK, she is in the hospital, and, of course, Batya says, the shower is being postponed.

On Thursday night, having made my students pray for Sister in class, and imagining all kinds of dreadful scenarios, I get home to learn that Sister didn't have an aneurysm, she was never unconscious, she's home now, and the shower is still on, but Sister cannot do any work, or lift anything.

That's how this all started.

235 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:34:02pm

re: #227 Jeff In Ohio

It's necessary for the newlyweds to fill their closets up with shit they can't throw out and will never use.

My brother got a quesadilla maker, a panini maker and a Foreman grill for his wedding.

Three items that all basically do the same thing. And three items that can be replaced with a simple frying pan.

236 tradewind  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:34:58pm

The WH can brush off Carville, but Colin Powell implying that they're slow-walking is another matter.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

237 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:35:25pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist


That's how this all started.

Oy.
and Vey...

238 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:35:50pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't mean to be uncharitable, but that's a pretty suspicious sounding story.

239 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:36:04pm

re: #235 Soap_Man

My brother got a quesadilla maker, a panini maker and a Foreman grill for his wedding.

Three items that all basically do the same thing. And three items that can be replaced with a simple frying pan.


But nothing can replace a device I saw in a Wal-mart a few years back: a combination Twinkie/corn dog maker.

The only appliance you will ever need.

240 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:36:14pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

You are allowed to stay in your robe till tomorrow after that.

241 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:36:31pm

re: #236 tradewind

The WH can brush off Carville, but Colin Powell implying that they're slow-walking is another matter.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Who the hell cares what Colon Bowel has to say anymore?

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:36:58pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

Well... let me give you this piece by piece.

...we got lost in Sacramento. We showed up an hour and a half later than we planned.

...we needed to use the kitchen to prep sandwiches and quiche. The 'hostess' was not happy.

...we proceeded to work, while the 'hostess' went, took a shower, and did her makeup.

It becomes gradually clear that the hostess considers us to be major screw-ups, although we mostly have to infer this, since she won't really speak to us directly. Meanwhile, we are busily prepping food, and talking about perfume and "Hell's Kitchen".

I'm makin' cucumber sandwiches, and cream-cheese and olive sandwiches, and salmon sandwiches.

I answer the door at one point. The 'hostess' gives me the filthiest look I have ever been on the receiving end of, and rushes to rescue her guest from me.

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:37:20pm

re: #228 webevintage

Oh my.
Are you a caterer or was this a friend thing?

This was a friend thing.

244 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:37:37pm

re: #236 tradewind

The WH can brush off Carville, but Colin Powell implying that they're slow-walking is another matter.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Opinions are like...

245 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:37:50pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Its like people who call in sick with a bad case of 'memorial day'.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:37:55pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Little bit of background, before I go on. Officially, the shower was being co-hosted by the bride's sister, myself, and a friend who I will call Batya. Sister decided it would be held at her home in Sacramento. Sister then, instead of contacting us and asking for help, complained to the bride about how overwhelmed she was, and the bride asked us to help out. So we contacted her, and agreed to bring various foods, and I said I would check out bridal shower games.

Some more detail. Sister is a control freak, who likes to think of herself as being Martha Stewart and Emily Post rolled into one. Nothing and no one is ever good enough. I have contact with this woman briefly, every couple of years, because she is the only sister of one of my best friends.

So, Wednesday night, I come home from work and find messages, telling me that Sister has had an aneurysm, she is NOT OK, she is in the hospital, and, of course, Batya says, the shower is being postponed.

On Thursday night, having made my students pray for Sister in class, and imagining all kinds of dreadful scenarios, I get home to learn that Sister didn't have an aneurysm, she was never unconscious, she's home now, and the shower is still on, but Sister cannot do any work, or lift anything.

That's how this all started.

Did I mention that the wedding is in OCTOBER?

247 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:38:01pm

Well... it's almost time to take a nap, I have my second overnight shift coming up at 10:00 tonight.

Last night wasn't too bad. Overnight cashier has to also stock with the night crew when there is no customers needing assistance. I hate stocking. Since it's not part of my normal job, and my stocking speed is rank amateur, and of course I really don't know where half the items are in reference to their shelf location, it takes me much loner to get through a cart full of boxes.

And of course, the night stocking crew are like long shore men, and I feel like some Catholic school panty-waist, not able to keep up with the "big boys."

It's more about the way I feel, rather than the way the night crew treats me or even cares about me... but for me, it's uncomfortable, pushes old buttons of being the "soft" kid in the group.

Anyway... going to take a nap, do my overnight, and that should be done for a while... I only substitute for the overnight cashiers when someone needs a few days off, which doesn't happen a lot.

I got Mon-Wed off, so, I be back to bother you all. Catch you in the AM.

248 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:38:04pm

re: #242 SanFranciscoZionist

It becomes gradually clear that the hostess considers us to be major screw-ups, although we mostly have to infer this, since she won't really speak to us directly. Meanwhile, we are busily prepping food, and talking about perfume and "Hell's Kitchen".

I'm makin' cucumber sandwiches, and cream-cheese and olive sandwiches, and salmon sandwiches.

I answer the door at one point. The 'hostess' gives me the filthiest look I have ever been on the receiving end of, and rushes to rescue her guest from me.

Ah, you were the "help"

That just sucks.

249 freetoken  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:38:23pm

re: #236 tradewind

Powell wants to give the people in the area a "sense of hope."

Maybe we all need a dose of reality instead? Perhaps we need to be exposed to the idea that it is possible that we can start problems the solutions of which might be extremely difficult to intractable?

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:39:02pm

re: #235 Soap_Man

My brother got a quesadilla maker, a panini maker and a Foreman grill for his wedding.

Three items that all basically do the same thing. And three items that can be replaced with a simple frying pan.

There's a Michelle Serros essay where she proudly shows her father that she's honoring her Mexican heritage--she bought a tortilla maker!

Her father tells her that she was born with a tortilla maker, like everyone else, and slaps his hands together.

251 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:39:11pm

re: #249 freetoken

Powell wants to give the people in the area a "sense of hope."

Maybe we all need a dose of reality instead? Perhaps we need to be exposed to the idea that it is possible that we can start problems the solutions of which might be extremely difficult to intractable?

Here's the sense of hope they might be looking for.

Have to wait until August.

252 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:39:11pm

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

Peace man! Don't let the bastards grind you down!

253 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:39:19pm

re: #238 reine.de.tout

I don't mean to be uncharitable, but that's a pretty suspicious sounding story.

Isn't it?

254 freetoken  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:39:26pm

Creationism is a mental illness, and should be treated as such.

255 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:40:14pm

re: #254 freetoken

Creationism is a mental illness, and should be treated as such.


Those who reject science should just be forced to livi without any of the benefits it has given us...

256 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:40:25pm

re: #254 freetoken

Creationism is a mental illness, and should be treated as such.

Um, some would say the same about raving AGW hysteria.

257 freetoken  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:40:28pm

re: #251 Gus 802

Relief wells are the final solution, for sure.

258 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:40:40pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn. Women really try to hard. For men, it's all about getting fucked up and having a boner. Go figure.

259 freetoken  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:41:13pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

Um, some would say the same about raving AGW hysteria.

Ok....

260 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:41:50pm

re: #235 Soap_Man

That requires no cords and can hang on a wall.

261 tradewind  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:41:56pm

re: #241 Cato the Elder
Evidently, the national press.
/Childishly scatological nickname and all./

262 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:42:02pm

re: #236 tradewind

The WH can brush off Carville, but Colin Powell implying that they're slow-walking is another matter.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

See how much easier it is if one is not shrill.
So they made a mistake with the optics....

I suggest it might be a good idea to point out that it took Red Adair 17 months (?) in the 70's to put out that leak off the CA coast and stop with the false optimism.
Hope is fine, but make it an honest hope not one based on platitudes and showman ship.

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:42:25pm

re: #242 SanFranciscoZionist

It becomes gradually clear that the hostess considers us to be major screw-ups, although we mostly have to infer this, since she won't really speak to us directly. Meanwhile, we are busily prepping food, and talking about perfume and "Hell's Kitchen".

I'm makin' cucumber sandwiches, and cream-cheese and olive sandwiches, and salmon sandwiches.

I answer the door at one point. The 'hostess' gives me the filthiest look I have ever been on the receiving end of, and rushes to rescue her guest from me.

The BFF of Sister, a nice normal woman, oddly enough, shows up with decorations and candy. The lunch table gets prepped, and, with the food finished, Batya and I go off to change into nicer clothes, and put on makeup. I planned to ask Sister if I could borrow an iron for my blouse, but now I wouldn't ask her for ice water in hell, so I wear a t-shirt over my skirt.

Did I mention that when I got through the door, I pulled out a risque card game I'd brought, which instantly put me on the shit list? We apparently have devout Catholic relatives of the groom coming, and 'little girls' will be attending. That means, the hostess's daughter, aged seven. Didn't know she was coming.

264 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:42:31pm

re: #254 freetoken

Creationism is a mental illness, and should be treated as such.

I don't agree. You can't treat someone's ideological or religious opinions as if they were mental issues. That way lies the path trod by the Soviet Union.

265 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:42:31pm

re: #258 Jeff In Ohio

Damn. Women really try to hard. For men, it's all about getting fucked up and having a boner. Go figure.


There was a discussion in a previous thread about the terror men feel when faced with any sort of treatment/therapy that might endanger their ability to get an erection, even if it might cost them their lives.

Now I understand why...you are afraid you might wind up like that lady.

266 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:42:46pm

re: #257 freetoken

Relief wells are the final solution, for sure.

Yep. Reality always trumps fiction. Hope, faith, and rhetoric will not change the practical technical solutions. In this case it is the relief wells. About all that can be done until then is manage the oil slicks and such.

267 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:43:17pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

Oh, Cato!

268 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:43:20pm

re: #236 tradewind

The WH can brush off Carville, but Colin Powell implying that they're slow-walking is another matter.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Why? He's not a Dem and the Republicans don't seem to want him anymore, so who's really backing him up?

269 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:43:43pm

re: #258 Jeff In Ohio

Damn. Women really try to hard. For men, it's all about getting fucked up and having a boner. Go figure.

Well, there's a bachelorette party coming up later. I have no idea what will happen with that. With mine, we just got pizza and wine, and watched alternative porn.

270 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:44:31pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

Did I mention that the wedding is in OCTOBER?

WTH?

271 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:44:39pm

re: #269 SanFranciscoZionist

"Alternative?"

272 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:46:25pm

re: #261 tradewind

Evidently, the national press.
/Childishly scatological nickname and all./

Powell is a second-guessing jerkoff.

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:46:27pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

The BFF of Sister, a nice normal woman, oddly enough, shows up with decorations and candy. The lunch table gets prepped, and, with the food finished, Batya and I go off to change into nicer clothes, and put on makeup. I planned to ask Sister if I could borrow an iron for my blouse, but now I wouldn't ask her for ice water in hell, so I wear a t-shirt over my skirt.

Did I mention that when I got through the door, I pulled out a risque card game I'd brought, which instantly put me on the shit list? We apparently have devout Catholic relatives of the groom coming, and 'little girls' will be attending. That means, the hostess's daughter, aged seven. Didn't know she was coming.

So Batya and I come out, and Sister intercepts us to demand to know what games we are playing, besides the Bridal Trivia one she bought.

I explain that we are going to do a blessing of the bride, and I was planning to do the 'make a veil out of TP' thing, but we were so late, we did not have time to pull over and get TP.

"Do you have any supplies at all?" asks the Sister.

"No," I explain, "our planning was a little thrown off by, you know, your hospitalization."

We find tape and TP.

We then gather in the living room, bless the bride, give a toast, and then Sister stands and conducts the Bridal Trivia game as though we were all going to be shot if we failed to play correctly.

274 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:47:21pm

re: #271 JasonA

"Alternative?"

Violet Blue.

Oh, and an incredibly funny one with pirates.

275 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:48:14pm

Internet Addicts Guilty Of Starving Baby To Death While Tending To Virtual Child

SEOUL, South Korea — A South Korean couple were convicted Friday of abandoning their newborn daughter, who starved to death while they addictively played an online game raising a virtual child.

I can't even get my snark up. It's like when Cartman meets the parents with the butt faces. Damn...

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:49:02pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

We then proceed to make the veils out of TP, and then we are given about thirty-five seconds to get food, before the bride starts to open her presents.

Sister tells Batya to get a piece of paper and record what is being given by who. Sister drags me aside while I'm trying to get my food, to tell me that I STILL haven't signed the card for the gift the three of us gave the bride.

277 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:49:11pm

re: #275 JasonA

Its not that much different than the Korean guy who starved himself to death playing a MMO.

278 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:50:18pm

re: #277 windsagio

Its not that much different than the Korean guy who starved himself to death playing a MMO.

I think similar things have happened in China. Something weird's going on over there...

279 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:50:46pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

Being in a large Catholic family, I've watched this exact thing unfold many times. My sister in-law's Irish dad always takes me aside at family wedding type events and says "Start drinking now and don't stop till it's over."

Sage advise from the Emerald Isle.

280 freetoken  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:51:15pm

re: #264 Dark_Falcon

That's the position that SFZ took when I raised this before.

However, let me point out (before I run off to the gym... the "Creationism..." line was supposed to be my sign-off) that we use the force of law in this country against people's religious/cultural beliefs already. Classic cases are polygamy, controlled substances, age of consent... we could broaden this quite a bit if we wanted to get into whether or not an islamic community in this country wanted to institute what may moslems feel are proper actions according to their religion (same could be said for other religions.)

The only reason we don't ascribe creationism to the category of mental illness in this country is due to culture - such a large section of this country maintain YEC beliefs that it becomes culturally acceptable.

Nevertheless, YEC is a delusion as much as thinking oneself is Napoleon.

281 Ojoe  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:51:17pm

Yes the topic of this thread is a made up outrageous outrage bit I still think it would have been politic of Mr. Obama to be at Arlington; he has some make-up to do with some parts of the citizens after referring to the US flag as "that pin", and so on.

I'm just saying.

Obama sometimes is the very model of a political klutz.

282 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:51:40pm

re: #275 JasonA

Internet Addicts Guilty Of Starving Baby To Death While Tending To Virtual Child

I can't even get my snark up. It's like when Cartman meets the parents with the butt faces. Damn...

There is something strange about a country that considers Starcraft to be the national sport.

283 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:51:45pm

re: #277 windsagio

Its not that much different than the Korean guy who starved himself to death playing a MMO.

Sometimes you need to step away from the computer...

284 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:52:29pm

re: #281 Ojoe

Yes the topic of this thread is a made up outrageous outrage bit I still think it would have been politic of Mr. Obama to be at Arlington; he has some make-up to do with some parts of the citizens after referring to the US flag as "that pin", and so on.

I'm just saying.

Obama sometimes is the very model of a political klutz.

Stick your flag pin up your nose.

285 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:52:41pm

re: #281 Ojoe

Yes the topic of this thread is a made up outrageous outrage bit I still think it would have been politic of Mr. Obama to be at Arlington; he has some make-up to do with some parts of the citizens after referring to the US flag as "that pin", and so on.

I'm just saying.

Obama sometimes is the very model of a political klutz.

Plus for stunning satire :D

286 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:53:29pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

The BFF of Sister, a nice normal woman, oddly enough, shows up with decorations and candy. The lunch table gets prepped, and, with the food finished, Batya and I go off to change into nicer clothes, and put on makeup. I planned to ask Sister if I could borrow an iron for my blouse, but now I wouldn't ask her for ice water in hell, so I wear a t-shirt over my skirt.

Did I mention that when I got through the door, I pulled out a risque card game I'd brought, which instantly put me on the shit list? We apparently have devout Catholic relatives of the groom coming, and 'little girls' will be attending. That means, the hostess's daughter, aged seven. Didn't know she was coming.

What's a bridal shower without a risque shower game?

Oh, my.
just stay in your bathrobe all day. You've earned it.

287 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:53:42pm

You guys have NO IDEA the crazy pressure that revolves around idiotic things like bridal showers, baby showers, weddings and canasta night.
I don't why we do it and instead of these being fun events we make them horrible events with lame games and lackluster booze and there is always, ALWAYS a queen bee who is supposed to be helping but instead is keeping score and taking names.

288 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:53:44pm

re: #265 ralphieboy

There was a discussion in a previous thread about the terror men feel when faced with any sort of treatment/therapy that might endanger their ability to get an erection, even if it might cost them their lives.

Now I understand why...you are afraid you might wind up like that lady.

Interesting. I have many many thoughts and I will not share them.

289 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:54:15pm

re: #258 Jeff In Ohio

Damn. Women really try to hard. For men, it's all about getting fucked up and having a boner. Go figure.

Men are such simple critters.

290 Ojoe  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:54:28pm

re: #284 Cato the Elder

"/"

291 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:55:12pm

re: #268 JasonA

Why? He's not a Dem and the Republicans don't seem to want him anymore, so who's really backing him up?

He's just an independent citizen with an opinion.
Is that so weird?

292 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:56:13pm

re: #287 webevintage

You guys have NO IDEA the crazy pressure that revolves around idiotic things like bridal showers, baby showers, weddings and canasta night.
I don't why we do it and instead of these being fun events we make them horrible events with lame games and lackluster booze and there is always, ALWAYS a queen bee who is supposed to be helping but instead is keeping score and taking names.

Because nobody wants to find themselves on the wrong end of the social hit the Queen Bee would put out.

293 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:56:27pm

re: #269 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, there's a bachelorette party coming up later. I have no idea what will happen with that. With mine, we just got pizza and wine, and watched alternative porn.

Alternative porn.....?

294 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:56:29pm

re: #281 Ojoe

Yes the topic of this thread is a made up outrageous outrage bit I still think it would have been politic of Mr. Obama to be at Arlington; he has some make-up to do with some parts of the citizens after referring to the US flag as "that pin", and so on.

Why? there is nothing, nothing he can do to make up to those people.
They hate him and always will.

Plus when did the dead at Arlington become more deserving then the dead at the national cemetery in Illinois?

295 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:56:53pm

re: #291 reine.de.tout

He's just an independent citizen with an opinion.
Is that so weird?

Not weird, but Tradewind seems to think that his opinion carries a lot of weight with people. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful of the man.

296 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:56:58pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

Internet communities are really the same >>

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:57:12pm

After the formal festivities are over, Sister declares herself terribly tired, and goes to lie down. On her way to bed, she grabs both Batya and I individually to whisper in our ears that we owe her fifteen bucks for our share of the gift, wrapping, and card for the bride.

Batya and I go into the kitchen, and acknowledge that the only way out is through.

The partygoers have been eating and drinking from the good Lenox china with gold borders that can't go in the machine, and the Christian Dior gold-trimmed champagne glasses, ditto.

With considerable help from Sister's best friend, we clean the kitchen, tidy away the lunch table, and throw out the TP and wrapping paper, as the guests continue to chat with the bride in the living room.

(An hour later).

Sister must have ears like a bat, because as soon as the last Lenox dish is hand-washed, hand-dried, and hand put away, she emerges, to smile upon the guests as they begin to leave. She also scolds Batya and I for letting the bride do 'our job' by offering lollipops to the guests as they go.

We finally announce that we MUST get out of Dodge. Batya thanks Sister for hostessing. Sister smiles wanly, and thanks us for 'helping with the food'.

At a Carl's Junior down the road, where we have pulled over to get sodas, Batya suddenly clutches at her chest, and asks if I wrote Sister a check. I assure her that a check for the amount owed by both of us was left with Sister's BFF.

Batya almost cries with relief.

I think the bride had a good time. I didn't do it for Sister. I did it for the bride, because she is my friend, and because it is a mitzvah to give a bride enjoyment.

Feh.

298 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:57:37pm

re: #279 Jeff In Ohio

Being in a large Catholic family, I've watched this exact thing unfold many times. My sister in-law's Irish dad always takes me aside at family wedding type events and says "Start drinking now and don't stop till it's over."

Sage advise from the Emerald Isle.

There was a lot of champagne. If you drink it like soda, it does keep you going.

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:58:04pm

re: #280 freetoken

That's the position that SFZ took when I raised this before.

However, let me point out (before I run off to the gym... the "Creationism..." line was supposed to be my sign-off) that we use the force of law in this country against people's religious/cultural beliefs already. Classic cases are polygamy, controlled substances, age of consent... we could broaden this quite a bit if we wanted to get into whether or not an islamic community in this country wanted to institute what may moslems feel are proper actions according to their religion (same could be said for other religions.)

The only reason we don't ascribe creationism to the category of mental illness in this country is due to culture - such a large section of this country maintain YEC beliefs that it becomes culturally acceptable.

Nevertheless, YEC is a delusion as much as thinking oneself is Napoleon.

We use the force of law to control people's actions, not people's beliefs.

300 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:58:20pm

re: #287 webevintage

You guys have NO IDEA the crazy pressure that revolves around idiotic things like bridal showers, baby showers, weddings and canasta night.
I don't why we do it and instead of these being fun events we make them horrible events with lame games and lackluster booze and there is always, ALWAYS a queen bee who is supposed to be helping but instead is keeping score and taking names.

And that's exactly why I never get involved in those things.
Well, rarely.
And when I do, I rent a nice room at a restaurant and let them cater the thing.
And I pay for it all, and assign the co-hosts to do the games stuff.

Too. Much. Drama.

301 Ojoe  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:58:29pm

re: #294 webevintage

Well Arlington has the big name.

On the other hand it was Robert E. Lee's estate, so maybe Obama doesn't want to go there.

But if he's "post racial" he could make a point if he did.

Gaaaa!

It is all crazy actually.

Here are sarc tags if anyone wants them: ///

302 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:58:39pm

re: #287 webevintage

Men do something like this. We call it corporate culture.

303 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:59:16pm

re: #301 Ojoe

To be honest I kinda didn't think you were being sarcastic the first time.

I'll allow you the out tho >>


/I'm nice like that.

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 1:59:43pm

re: #289 reine.de.tout

Men are such simple critters.

The groom got to stay at home, and play World of Warcraft. He looked up in some terror when we showed up with all the leftovers.

We spared him the details. I have a feeling he'll hear them from the bride anyway, after Sister gets a chance to dump on her about her nasty hippie friends who ruined bridal shower.

305 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:00:01pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the bride had a good time. I didn't do it for Sister. I did it for the bride, because she is my friend, and because it is a mitzvah to give a bride enjoyment.

Feh.

YOU are a much better woman then I SFZ.
My rule is she who makes the food gets to enjoy the party and drinks while those who did not clean up.
OR I would have left just a bit after the gal went for her "lie down".

306 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:00:11pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

Because nobody wants to find themselves on the wrong end of the social hit the Queen Bee would put out.

Thank God, the bride is really the only person I know or care about in this situation.

307 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:00:24pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

We use the force of law to control people's actions, not people's beliefs.

Thank you.

Creationists are welcome to their beliefs, as are people who think we're all gonna die if we don't buy Prii tomorrow.

308 Ojoe  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:01:12pm

re: #307 Cato the Elder

Plus for latin plural on car name.

309 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:01:20pm

re: #307 Cato the Elder

Thank you.

Creationists are welcome to their beliefs, as are people who think we're all gonna die if we don't buy Prii tomorrow.

That's so laughable.

We're all gonna die anyway. :)

310 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:02:06pm

re: #294 webevintage

Why? there is nothing, nothing he can do to make up to those people.
They hate him and always will.

Plus when did the dead at Arlington become more deserving then the dead at the national cemetery in Illinois?

It's just that Arlington is thought of as The cemetery for war dead. But there's nothing wrong with Obama's decision. If it hadn't been this, there would have been an "Outrageous Outrage" about something else. As for me, I'm outraged out. I'm simply ignoring such things as crying "Wolf!" right now.

311 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:02:32pm

re: #289 reine.de.tout

Yes!!

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:02:47pm

re: #300 reine.de.tout

And that's exactly why I never get involved in those things.
Well, rarely.
And when I do, I rent a nice room at a restaurant and let them cater the thing.
And I pay for it all, and assign the co-hosts to do the games stuff.

Too. Much. Drama.

Did I mention that Sister is a partner in a law firm? I don't usually bitch about people with money not spending it, but under the circumstances, a caterer might not have been a bad idea.

Then again, Batya and I came a lot cheaper.

313 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:03:53pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

So Batya and I come out, and Sister intercepts us to demand to know what games we are playing, besides the Bridal Trivia one she bought.

I explain that we are going to do a blessing of the bride, and I was planning to do the 'make a veil out of TP' thing, but we were so late, we did not have time to pull over and get TP.

"Do you have any supplies at all?" asks the Sister.

"No," I explain, "our planning was a little thrown off by, you know, your hospitalization."

We find tape and TP.

We then gather in the living room, bless the bride, give a toast, and then Sister stands and conducts the Bridal Trivia game as though we were all going to be shot if we failed to play correctly.

Sounds like the Bridal Shower from Hell. Are you sure this is your Sister? Maybe you have, uh, different fathers?

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:04:13pm

re: #305 webevintage

YOU are a much better woman then I SFZ.
My rule is she who makes the food gets to enjoy the party and drinks while those who did not clean up.
OR I would have left just a bit after the gal went for her "lie down".

She would have taken it out on baby sister, and it just wasn't worth it. This way, I at least get to feel a little self-righteous.

Thank you, all, for letting me vent. I cannot blog about this. The bride reads my blog.

315 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:04:29pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

Because nobody wants to find themselves on the wrong end of the social hit the Queen Bee would put out.

You know after I wrote this I realized why I hate Sarah Palin so much.
She's a Queen Bee and Queen Bees have always had a habit of making me crazy mad. So she has all her flying monkeys who flutter around her and do her dirty work to get approval from a women who does not know them and gives not one shit about them.

My sister is a toxic Queen Bee and ruins many a family reunion so i just don't go anymore. I see my parents and extended family on my terms and without all the drama.
Too bad we do not see our nephews much but she thinks we are bad influences because we are "lax" as parents.

316 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:04:36pm

Cool random song link!

Youtube Video
317 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:04:49pm

In case anyone's interested, The Pacific marathon is starting on HBO2W now.

318 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:05:02pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #287 webevintage

You guys have NO IDEA the crazy pressure that revolves around idiotic things like bridal showers, baby showers, weddings and canasta night.
I don't why we do it and instead of these being fun events we make them horrible events with lame games and lackluster booze and there is always, ALWAYS a queen bee who is supposed to be helping but instead is keeping score and taking names.

Similar story:

I have two brothers; one is married and the other will be this summer. My current sister-in-law was not chosen as a bride's maid by the bride-to-be (no surprise to anyone really. They are not close and have nothing in common.) To please the sister-in-law, the bride-to-be gave her the responsibility of hosting the bridal shower.

Sister-in-law is a control freak. Bride-to-be is really relaxed. So, the sister-in-law keeps telling me that she has to do this and that, while the bride keeps saying its not a big deal. Just invite friends and family, get some food and everything will be fine. But the sister-in-law is still preparing for the event like its a shuttle launch.

The other day, the sister-in-law was freaking out about this and that, saying she needs to do all this little bullshit the bride doesn't care about.

I finally had enough of the whole fiasco, so I just asked "Why?" She didn't understand the question, so I said "Why are you freaking out about things [insert bride's name] has repeatedly said she doesn't care about."

At this point, my brother kicks me under the table because he knew my next statement would be "You aren't doing all this for her, you are doing it for yourself."

I'm hoping that she understands what I was getting at, but I doubt it.

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:05:22pm

re: #313 Alouette

Sounds like the Bridal Shower from Hell. Are you sure this is your Sister? Maybe you have, uh, different fathers?

No, the bride's sister. I am, thank God, not related to Sister at all.

320 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:05:42pm

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

No problem. I understand. I have one just like that.

321 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:05:51pm

re: #254 freetoken

Creationism is a mental illness, and should be treated as such.

I could not disagree more.

Once you start "diagnosing" people's beliefs, the door is open for them to do the same to you.

Richard Dawkins believes I'm a mental defective for believing in God. I believe he is a turd sandwich. Neither belief should be subject to psychoanalysis unless it harms someone else.

322 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:07:16pm

re: #318 Soap_Man

So understand. Entertaining can be all about giving your friends and family pleasure, or it can be much, much meaner than that.

323 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:07:34pm

re: #321 Cato the Elder

"Liberalism is a mental illness" is a classic of the genre.

324 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:08:08pm

re: #323 windsagio

"Liberalism is a mental illness" is a classic of the genre.

Nah, that's actually pretty new.

325 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:08:39pm

re: #324 JasonA

heh, to be honest its more useful because it flips the thing around >>

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:08:50pm

re: #323 windsagio

"Liberalism is a mental illness" is a classic of the genre.

Those who buy into that should remember that you could be hospitalized and operated on in the old Soviet Union for the mental illness of opposing Communism.

327 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:08:53pm

re: #254 freetoken

To what end?

328 Reginald Perrin  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:08:57pm

re: #257 freetoken

Relief wells are the final solution, for sure.

Actually relief wells are a means of preventing disasters like this. In Canada, the simultaneous drilling of relief wells is mandatory when drilling offshore.

329 Ojoe  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:09:40pm

re: #324 JasonA

It is a few years old anyway & I think was spread far & wide by the Michael Savage of the radio show.

BBL

330 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:10:14pm

Now that is something I did not know. Wow. One up.

331 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:10:16pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

hug

332 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:10:19pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

Guanxi88 has a flamethrower.

And still plenty of propane to fuel it, I tell you what.

333 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:10:21pm

The sisterhood at my congregation made showers for my two oldest daughters, and my daughters-in-law had showers made for them by their friends, (which I did not attend, being from out of town)

I never had a bridal shower, or a baby shower, or a bat mitzvah.

334 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:10:54pm

re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist

So understand. Entertaining can be all about giving your friends and family pleasure, or it can be much, much meaner than that.

Any good host plans the event for the guest of honor, not for themselves. Sister-in-law keeps thinking that her opinions on a good bridal shower are the only ones that count. Like the bride-to-be doesn't have any idea what kind of bridal shower she should want.

335 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:11:09pm

Whoops

re: #328 Reginald Perrin

Actually relief wells are a means of preventing disasters like this. In Canada, the simultaneous drilling of relief wells is mandatory when drilling offshore.

Now that is something I did not know. Wow. One up.

336 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:12:28pm

re: #333 Alouette
You are not missing much. My kid sister blamed me for everything going on. Yes, both right and wrong.

337 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:12:33pm

re: #328 Reginald Perrin

Would you have link for that by any chance? It really deserves to be a Page in here or something.

338 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:12:54pm

re: #167 Gus 802

Filled with cognac for a field flambé?

/

Nope, only distilled spirits in the house are El Presidente brandy. At 3X the cost per fifth of thunderbird, this rare and precious nectar is reserved for a higher purpose.

339 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:13:07pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

After the formal festivities are over, Sister declares herself terribly tired, and goes to lie down. On her way to bed, she grabs both Batya and I individually to whisper in our ears that we owe her fifteen bucks for our share of the gift, wrapping, and card for the bride.

Batya and I go into the kitchen, and acknowledge that the only way out is through.

The partygoers have been eating and drinking from the good Lenox china with gold borders that can't go in the machine, and the Christian Dior gold-trimmed champagne glasses, ditto.

With considerable help from Sister's best friend, we clean the kitchen, tidy away the lunch table, and throw out the TP and wrapping paper, as the guests continue to chat with the bride in the living room.

(An hour later).

Sister must have ears like a bat, because as soon as the last Lenox dish is hand-washed, hand-dried, and hand put away, she emerges, to smile upon the guests as they begin to leave. She also scolds Batya and I for letting the bride do 'our job' by offering lollipops to the guests as they go.

We finally announce that we MUST get out of Dodge. Batya thanks Sister for hostessing. Sister smiles wanly, and thanks us for 'helping with the food'.

At a Carl's Junior down the road, where we have pulled over to get sodas, Batya suddenly clutches at her chest, and asks if I wrote Sister a check. I assure her that a check for the amount owed by both of us was left with Sister's BFF.

Batya almost cries with relief.

I think the bride had a good time. I didn't do it for Sister. I did it for the bride, because she is my friend, and because it is a mitzvah to give a bride enjoyment.

Feh.

You deserve a medal. I would've loved to ride in the car back, to hear you re-live the whole thing. (Sister is an ass)

340 avanti  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:13:35pm

re: #47 jamesfirecat

Your last sentence is entirely correct.

Whatever the left did or didn't do under Bush in no ways writes the right a blank check to misbehave under Obama.

By that logic, Obama's political horse trading in a Democratic primary is just business as usual and acceptable. IMHO, it all has to stop at some point,

341 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:14:23pm

re: #340 avanti

By that logic, Obama's political horse trading in a Democratic primary is just business as usual and acceptable. IMHO, it all has to stop at some point,

I dunno - I think a lot of the lizards here have done a good job of stopping it, at least among ourselves. It's a start.

342 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:14:59pm

Down with the Marital Industrial Complex!

Once a lady with a huge rock on her finger was signing as a witness for a county civil ceremony I performed and asked how much the wedding cost. In Los Angeles County, a marriage license is $70 and the ceremony is $25, so for $95 you’re legally married and out the door. The lady sighed and confided, “Gee, I wish I’d known about you for my wedding. It’s been two years and we’re still paying it off.”

Thus we conveniently arrive at the second of the Five Ways To Screw Up Your Wedding:

Go Heavily Into Debt.

Nowadays couples frequently pay for their own weddings without the traditional boost from the folks, since they’re marrying a little older and sometimes the folks just don’t have it to spare. Supposedly the cost of the "average American wedding" keeps spiraling up and up, and this year (according to the Wedding Report Inc.) the average is currently just below $29,000.

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:15:32pm

re: #333 Alouette

The sisterhood at my congregation made showers for my two oldest daughters, and my daughters-in-law had showers made for them by their friends, (which I did not attend, being from out of town)

I never had a bridal shower, or a baby shower, or a bat mitzvah.

I had a bat mitvah, and a bachelorette evening, although that was extremely relaxed. (Pizza. Wine. Raunchy movies. Oh, and we watched "Bride and Prejudice", cause it's a great wedding movie.)

We didn't do a shower.

344 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:16:03pm

re: #342 Cato the Elder

I wish there were still outstanding warrants out for the executives of De Beers, but I think they cut a deal.

345 webevintage  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:16:16pm

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you, all, for letting me vent. I cannot blog about this. The bride reads my blog.

hahahahaha
I know.
My family dramas cannot go on either my blog or facebook because my mother and sister both read.
Drives me crazy...

(The thing is I have a great husband and twice a year we would go visit my family (it was better when my parents lived close because my sister is OK for an hour or two.) and I would be miserable, my son would be afraid of my sister's temper and my husband would be angry the whole time. One day after a really annoying visit he said we were not doing it any more because he could not stand how my parents treated me when she was around/her complete lack of regard for my feelings/intelligence nor the way she treated out son. It was like a light went on, I realized I did not actually have to put up with all that crap. So we stopped going. Sometimes I feel sad because she is fun and charismatic but then I remember what a land mine a visit is with her and I'm happy again.)

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:17:56pm

re: #339 Stanley Sea

You deserve a medal. I would've loved to ride in the car back, to hear you re-live the whole thing. (Sister is an ass)

The ride both up and back was epic. And then Batya and I went out to dinner, and yukked it up. It was pretty special.

347 avanti  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:17:59pm

re: #341 Guanxi88

I dunno - I think a lot of the lizards here have done a good job of stopping it, at least among ourselves. It's a start.

Baby steps, but I agree. I'll admit, I'm more upset when I see this administration truly screw up than the BS outrage over nothing. We need to keep a eye on the ball.

348 freetoken  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:18:17pm

re: #321 Cato the Elder

Once you start "diagnosing" people's beliefs, the door is open for them to do the same to you.


First off, people do that all the time! Really. C'mon Cato, you diagnose people here, and not infrequently.

Furthermore, the psych community diagnose people based on what they are thinking as well as what they do. Yes, really.

It's funny... no where did I use the word "control" yet others in reacting to my post objected to "controlling" others.

Our society, modern that it is, tries to help people with mental illness, not punish them. We don't lock up people with depression (unless they are on the point of killing themselves.)

No where did I even imply doing a Soviet style lock up of creationists.

Creationists are delusional, and mental health services should be available to them as it is with other delusional individuals.

And with that, I really am off to the gym.

349 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:18:27pm

re: #344 windsagio

I wish there were still outstanding warrants out for the executives of De Beers, but I think they cut a deal.

The idea that the average American wedding now costs $29k is just frightening to me.

Thirty grand for a "special day" that statistics say you will remember with horror within ten years, as you pay twice that in divorce lawyer's fees?

It's insane.

350 S'latch  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:18:34pm

Unfortunately, the top kill method failed. It is still gushing out.

351 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:18:42pm

re: #343 SanFranciscoZionist

I had a bat mitvah, and a bachelorette evening, although that was extremely relaxed. (Pizza. Wine. Raunchy movies. Oh, and we watched "Bride and Prejudice", cause it's a great wedding movie.)

We didn't do a shower.

is there actually a movie called Bride and Prejudice? yikes...and here i thought the original version was a tad overwrought...

352 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:19:07pm

re: #342 Cato the Elder

Down with the Marital Industrial Complex!

Gasoline for '99 Kia Sephia Boston-to-Providence run: $8.00
Marriage cert at Providence, RI, city hall: $24.00
Ceremony performed by Muni Court judge: $0.00
Lunch with Hizzoner afterward: $50.00, with tip.

Only way to go for us.

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:19:15pm

re: #344 windsagio

I wish there were still outstanding warrants out for the executives of De Beers, but I think they cut a deal.

My husband cannot watch diamond ads on TV. They make him mad.

354 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:20:01pm

re: #348 freetoken

First off, people do that all the time! Really. C'mon Cato, you diagnose people here, and not infrequently.

Furthermore, the psych community diagnose people based on what they are thinking as well as what they do. Yes, really.

It's funny... no where did I use the word "control" yet others in reacting to my post objected to "controlling" others.

Our society, modern that it is, tries to help people with mental illness, not punish them. We don't lock up people with depression (unless they are on the point of killing themselves.)

No where did I even imply doing a Soviet style lock up of creationists.

Creationists are delusional, and mental health services should be available to them as it is with other delusional individuals.

And with that, I really am off to the gym.

You're an asshole. My diagnosis.

355 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:20:04pm

re: #306 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank God, the bride is really the only person I know or care about in this situation.

You did your good deed. Now your home in your comfy clothes, back on LGF.

I ordered the May batch of sample perfumes from Lucky Scent. So fun!
I am trying Yosh's Ginger Cia parfum today.
I don't know who any of the perfume makers are on that site!

356 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:20:10pm

re: #321 Cato the Elder

I could not disagree more.

Once you start "diagnosing" people's beliefs, the door is open for them to do the same to you.

Richard Dawkins believes I'm a mental defective for believing in God. I believe he is a turd sandwich. Neither belief should be subject to psychoanalysis unless it harms someone else.

Quite Concur.

357 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:21:07pm

re: #353 SanFranciscoZionist

One of the most evil businesses in the world >>

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:21:34pm

re: #348 freetoken


Creationists are delusional, and mental health services should be available to them as it is with other delusional individuals.

By their very nature, creationists are happy with their beliefs. If it doesn't bother the patient, and allows them to live a functional life, no shrink will say there's anything to be treated.

That's above and beyond whether an ideological belief can be considered a mental disorder.

359 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:21:54pm

re: #353 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband cannot watch diamond ads on TV. They make him mad.

Me, too: I'm pissed that I haven't yet found a way to get in on that racket.
//

360 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:22:26pm

Cato, SanFranZ, I have a video for you:

Youtube Video
361 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:22:35pm

re: #348 freetoken

First off, people do that all the time! Really. C'mon Cato, you diagnose people here, and not infrequently.

Furthermore, the psych community diagnose people based on what they are thinking as well as what they do. Yes, really.

It's funny... no where did I use the word "control" yet others in reacting to my post objected to "controlling" others.

Our society, modern that it is, tries to help people with mental illness, not punish them. We don't lock up people with depression (unless they are on the point of killing themselves.)

No where did I even imply doing a Soviet style lock up of creationists.

Creationists are delusional, and mental health services should be available to them as it is with other delusional individuals.

And with that, I really am off to the gym.

Sorry, but I have to downding that. What you propose is dangerous, and would invite reciprocity.

362 Soap_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:23:13pm

re: #352 Guanxi88

Gasoline for '99 Kia Sephia Boston-to-Providence run: $8.00
Marriage cert at Providence, RI, city hall: $24.00
Ceremony performed by Muni Court judge: $0.00
Lunch with Hizzoner afterward: $50.00, with tip.

Only way to go for us.

That's the way to go. I want to go with a ceremony at city hall with an outdoor BBQ style reception at my folk's house (despite having a modest home, they have an epic yard.) Or maybe at a local forest preserve. You know, hire a couple of good BBQ people to cook at stations and people can just walk up and get anything they want.

As long as the future wife (whoever she may be) goes along with all that.

Well, gotta bounce. See you all later.

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:23:18pm

re: #351 Aceofwhat?

is there actually a movie called Bride and Prejudice? yikes...and here i thought the original version was a tad overwrought...

It's a spin on the Austen novel, about a young Indian woman (played by Aishwarya Rai), with several sisters, who meets a young American executive. It's really fun. American-style romantic comedy, but with some Bollywood touches, like song and dance routines.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:23:57pm

re: #355 prairiefire

You did your good deed. Now your home in your comfy clothes, back on LGF.

I ordered the May batch of sample perfumes from Lucky Scent. So fun!
I am trying Yosh's Ginger Cia parfum today.
I don't know who any of the perfume makers are on that site!

They have an amazing range.

365 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:24:12pm

re: #357 windsagio

One of the most evil businesses in the world >>

It really is, on so many levels.

366 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:25:04pm

re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist

By their very nature, creationists are happy with their beliefs. If it doesn't bother the patient, and allows them to live a functional life, no shrink will say there's anything to be treated.

That's above and beyond whether an ideological belief can be considered a mental disorder.

I'm pretty sure that if you pushed him hard enough, Freetoken would say that religious belief of any kind is delusional.

So sorry, but for most people, science is also a belief. The only ones for whom it's not are those, um, scientists who can actually do the math.

I accept evolution because scientists tell me they can prove it. I can't prove it myself, therefore on my part it is only a belief.

367 avanti  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:25:09pm

re: #359 Guanxi88

Me, too: I'm pissed that I haven't yet found a way to get in on that racket.
//

Come up with a new holiday to sell a product.

368 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:26:06pm

I think, returning to the sort of meta-topic, as it were, that one of the best cures for radicalism is exposure to folk of other beliefs and orientations, albeit in a friendly, largely social setting, such as this one.

It is far more difficult to despise a belief held by someone you "know" or with whom you have conversed or bonded over one topic or another. It's moderated my views, I'll say that much.

369 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:26:18pm

re: #360 Nimed

Cato, SanFranZ, I have a video for you:
[Video]

:)

370 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:28:41pm

re: #367 avanti

Come up with a new holiday to sell a product.

national "can't ya help a guy out?" day lacks the ring I think would be required. Gotta work on it, though.

371 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:28:55pm

re: #342 Cato the Elder

Down with the Marital Industrial Complex!

heh.
My wedding to the Roi cost $600.
That included the flowers, the sunset and the beach.

372 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:30:19pm

re: #353 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband cannot watch diamond ads on TV. They make him mad.

Mine too.

373 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:30:24pm

re: #348 freetoken

First off, people do that all the time! Really. C'mon Cato, you diagnose people here, and not infrequently.

Furthermore, the psych community diagnose people based on what they are thinking as well as what they do. Yes, really.

It's funny... no where did I use the word "control" yet others in reacting to my post objected to "controlling" others.

Our society, modern that it is, tries to help people with mental illness, not punish them. We don't lock up people with depression (unless they are on the point of killing themselves.)

No where did I even imply doing a Soviet style lock up of creationists.

Creationists are delusional, and mental health services should be available to them as it is with other delusional individuals.

And with that, I really am off to the gym.

i'm haunted by the question of whether you are intentionally or accidentally underestimating the breadth and depth of the toll that ACTUAL mental illnesses take on human lives?

i like to presume the best of people, so i'll presume that you're doing it unintentionally. still, it's not a laudable position in any way.

374 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:30:32pm

If "creationist delusion" were a private illness, it would be fine, but the Texas Board of Education is trying to make it a mandatory disease for all public school students there.

375 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:30:46pm

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but I have to downding that. What you propose is dangerous, and would invite reciprocity.

Dangerous? He never suggested locking people up in padded rooms. Don't be an asshole. Oh, and man up and drop the "sorry" bullshit.

376 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:32:42pm

re: #375 JasonA

Dangerous? He never suggested locking people up in padded rooms. Don't be an asshole. Oh, and man up and drop the "sorry" bullshit.

I'm not being an asshole. If you start labeling deep and widely held beliefs as delusional you'll get a widespread and violent reaction. And that is dangerous.

377 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:33:08pm

The blogger "I am TRex" has blogged about perfume.[Link: www.iamtrex.com...]
I have not read any of his writing, lately.
His name is David Ferguson and he also wrote for HuffPost at one time.

378 Bagua  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:33:23pm

re: #375 JasonA

Dangerous? He never suggested locking people up in padded rooms. Don't be an asshole. Oh, and man up and drop the "sorry" bullshit.

Lighten up, Dark_Falcon is a good guy. Being civil is not unmanly.

379 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:34:49pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

I'm not being an asshole. If you start labeling deep and widely held beliefs as delusional you'll get a widespread and violent reaction. And that is dangerous.

Ah. So an incorrect belief, proven false by science, is not unhealthy so long as it "deep and widely held?"

380 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:35:14pm

re: #366 Cato the Elder

I'm pretty sure that if you pushed him hard enough, Freetoken would say that religious belief of any kind is delusional.

So sorry, but for most people, science is also a belief. The only ones for whom it's not are those, um, scientists who can actually do the math.

I accept evolution because scientists tell me they can prove it. I can't prove it myself, therefore on my part it is only a belief.

Exactly. People who claim they never rely on authority arguments are irritating. Life's literally too short to check everything out -- the assumption in scientific knowledge is that in principle you could do it for any specific scientific claim (if you were willing to put sufficient time and effort in it).

381 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:35:44pm

re: #379 JasonA

Ah. So an incorrect belief, proven false by science, is not unhealthy so long as it "deep and widely held?"

an incorrect belief is NOT mental illness. try that out on someone with an actual mental illness, and see how they like the comparison.

382 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:37:46pm

Basenotes is another perfume blog/forum:[Link: www.basenotes.net...]

383 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:39:29pm

How is Creationism unhealthy?

384 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:40:41pm

re: #355 prairiefire

You did your good deed. Now your home in your comfy clothes, back on LGF.

I ordered the May batch of sample perfumes from Lucky Scent. So fun!
I am trying Yosh's Ginger Cia parfum today.
I don't know who any of the perfume makers are on that site!

ooh.
Just checked that site and ordered several samples.

385 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:41:39pm

re: #321 Cato the Elder

I could not disagree more.

Once you start "diagnosing" people's beliefs, the door is open for them to do the same to you.

Richard Dawkins believes I'm a mental defective for believing in God. I believe he is a turd sandwich. Neither belief should be subject to psychoanalysis unless it harms someone else.

It is a common misconception to believe that Richard Dawkins characterized the belief in God as a mental illness. He has made this clear on several occasion. The book "Good Delusion" is not a treatise portraying religion as a mental illness whatsoever and instead a delusion from his point of view. Many of us, believers and unbelievers have been accused of being delusional in our beliefs from time to time.

To clear this up I will refer to a Q and A with several panelists including Richard Dawkins:

God, Science and Sanity %P% Q&A %P% ABC TV

DAN ANDERSON: Professor McGorry, in your experience do you think that belief in a transcendent being or in the transcendent in general is part of normal, healthy human psychology or is it a symptom of mental illness?

PATRICK MCGORRY: That's obviously a trick question, right?

TONY JONES: Do your best, Phillip.

PATRICK MCGORRY: Well, look, you know, I've looked after a lot of people over the last 20 or 30 years who have had very significant psychiatric disorders and, you know, it's quite common for religious themes to actually manifest within the context of their symptoms so, you know, religion and mental health do co-exist in that way but clearly, also, spirituality is an important part of positive mental health. So I think there's two sides to this coin and, you know, I think the question - we could talk about that for hours, really.

TONY JONES: Let's go back to Richard Dawkins. I mean, you refer to belief in God as "the God delusion". I'm wondering whether you think that spirituality may have a positive psychological benefit, as the questioner implies?

RICHARD DAWKINS: No, I don't think it has a positive psychological benefit. As to whether religious belief is a mental illness, I don't think it's fair to call it a mental illness because so many people actually do it. On the other hand I think you could say that if you met one person, just one person, who claimed to believe some of the things that religious people as a whole claim to believe, you would think they were suffering from (indistinct). I mean it's just because so many of them believe it that we treat it as normal. But if you actually met somebody who said he believed that water could turn into wine, a man could walk on water, that a man could raise somebody else from the dead, you'd say, "Well, put him away." But because so many people believe it, you take it seriously.

386 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:42:11pm

re: #379 JasonA

Ah. So an incorrect belief, proven false by science, is not unhealthy so long as it "deep and widely held?"

That's a good question. Some beliefs are definitely unhealthy.

The "causes harm" criterion seems reasonable enough, but not totally satisfactory.

387 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:42:12pm

re: #384 reine.de.tout

ooh.
Just checked that site and ordered several samples.

So fun. I have a new hobby. Perfume sleuth.

388 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:42:40pm

re: #379 JasonA

Ah. So an incorrect belief, proven false by science, is not unhealthy so long as it "deep and widely held?"

Belief of any kind is only unhealthy when believers try to force it on others.

It neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket to have a neighbor who believes he is Napoleon. If he tries to invade my steppes, that's another problem.

389 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:42:59pm

re: #383 prairiefire

How is Creationism unhealthy?

I suppose it's perfectly fine and normal and helps to promote rational thought.

390 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:43:26pm

re: #381 Aceofwhat?

an incorrect belief is NOT mental illness. try that out on someone with an actual mental illness, and see how they like the comparison.

Well, some incorrect beliefs at least are clearly signs of mental illness.

391 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:43:31pm

re: #384 reine.de.tout

ooh.
Just checked that site and ordered several samples.

re: #387 prairiefire

So fun. I have a new hobby. Perfume sleuth.

ladies have it so hard in that arena, among others. Give a man a bottle of bay rum, and he's set and scented appropriately for any occasion.

392 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:43:49pm

re: #380 Nimed

Exactly. People who claim they never rely on authority arguments are irritating. Life's literally too short to check everything out -- the assumption in scientific knowledge is that in principle you could do it for any specific scientific claim (if you were willing to put sufficient time and effort in it).


That's what makes it science: anyone (or at least any other scientist) can check the facts and come to the same conclusions.

A system of beliefs based on revelation, inner truths and ineffable feelings is not reproducible or even explainiable in human terms. that's what makes it religion.

I don't see it so much as delusional as it is a major shortcoming in basic education: our students are not being taught how to think, what the limits of human reason are and where belief and religion begin.

393 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:43:49pm

re: #387 prairiefire

So fun. I have a new hobby. Perfume sleuth.

How do you get the "May batch" of samples?

394 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:44:15pm

re: #385 Gus 802

Dawkins knows less about theology than a monkey does about physics.

395 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:44:33pm

re: #388 Cato the Elder

Belief of any kind is only unhealthy when believers try to force it on others.

It neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket to have a neighbor who believes he is Napoleon. If he tries to invade my steppes, that's another problem.

Yes, the distinction between eccentricity and madness is whether or not one decides to generalize it, as it were.

396 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:45:15pm

re: #394 Cato the Elder

Dawkins knows less about theology than a monkey does about physics.

Horses for courses, as they say.

397 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:45:24pm

re: #388 Cato the Elder

Belief of any kind is only unhealthy when believers try to force it on others.

It neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket to have a neighbor who believes he is Napoleon. If he tries to invade my steppes, that's another problem.

It's perfectly adequate to characterize someone who is convinced he is Napolean as delusional.

398 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:45:26pm

re: #379 JasonA

Ah. So an incorrect belief, proven false by science, is not unhealthy so long as it "deep and widely held?"

"Unhealthy" and "Delusional" are two different things. The fact that someone is a creationist doesn't mean their brain is physically malfunctioning. It means that they have the wrong type of thinking.

Also, the rules change when a belief is widely and deeply held. If it a small minority, you can often simply drop the hammer on them and force a change. When it is a much larger minority, using Main force is much harder. Numbers + Conviction = Power. You have to respect the power, even while not respecting the belief.

399 Gus  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:45:26pm

OK, we've beaten this dead horse before and I'm not in the mood for a another one sided debate.

Think I'll go get some cigarettes and maybe a pizza.

400 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:45:59pm

re: #390 Nimed

Well, some incorrect beliefs at least are clearly signs of mental illness.

confusing a symptom with an illness is such a silly mistake that only a non-doctor could step in it. like, say, the non-doctors opining on this topic right now...

401 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:46:05pm

re: #394 Cato the Elder

Dawkins knows less about theology than a monkey does about physics.


You mean if I put enough Richard Dawkinsons in front of a typewriter, they still won't be able to write a cohesive book on theology?

402 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:46:12pm

re: #394 Cato the Elder

Dawkins knows less about theology than a monkey does about physics.

He does not need to. He knows evolutionary biology and he knows history. I don't see how theological knowledge would make his position stronger.

403 Guanxi88  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:47:13pm

re: #401 ralphieboy

You mean if I put enough Richard Dawkinsons in front of a typewriter, they still won't be able to write a cohesive book on theology?

A million Dawkins before a million typewiters, given enough time, MIGHT be able to produce the Summa.

404 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:47:27pm

re: #375 JasonA

Dangerous? He never suggested locking people up in padded rooms. Don't be an asshole. Oh, and man up and drop the "sorry" bullshit.

OK, I'M not sorry. Identifying beliefs you don't agree with as mental illnesses is stupid and potentially dangerous.

Creationism is not a mental illness. Neither is liberalism, or racism, or atheism, or believing that your loved ones are sending you pennies from the next world. A perfectly normal brain can do all of those.

If you are disturbed by any of these belief systems, and want to learn to believe or think in a different way, a good shrink will already work with you.

Identifying religious belief as a mental illness, however, takes you straight down to the basement of Bad Crazy Town, whether you plan for it to or not.

405 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:47:32pm

re: #397 Nimed

It's perfectly adequate to characterize someone who is convinced he is Napolean as delusional.

But there is no necessity for treatment unless it makes him unhappy or dangerous.

I strongly object to the idea that counterfactual beliefs should be "treated" by assholes who think they know the reel troof about the universe.

406 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:47:35pm

re: #402 JasonA

He does not need to. He knows evolutionary biology and he knows history. I don't see how theological knowledge would make his position stronger.

we know that you don't get it.

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:48:26pm

re: #379 JasonA

Ah. So an incorrect belief, proven false by science, is not unhealthy so long as it "deep and widely held?"

No, an incorrect belief, proven false by science, is not a mental illness. Regardless of whether it's held by millions, or just one guy

408 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:48:46pm

re: #402 JasonA

He does not need to. He knows evolutionary biology and he knows history. I don't see how theological knowledge would make his position stronger.

Well, he can fuck himself with his opinions on God.

409 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:49:00pm

re: #382 prairiefire

Basenotes is another perfume blog/forum:[Link: www.basenotes.net...]

I also like [Link: www.perfumeposse.com....]

410 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:49:13pm

re: #403 Guanxi88

A million Dawkins before a million typewiters, given enough time, MIGHT be able to produce the Summa.


You can fool Summa Theologica some of the time...

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:49:27pm

re: #384 reine.de.tout

ooh.
Just checked that site and ordered several samples.

More mainstream fragrance samples are available at [Link: www.theperfumedcourt.com....]

412 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:49:30pm

re: #400 Aceofwhat?

confusing a symptom with an illness is such a silly mistake that only a non-doctor could step in it. like, say, the non-doctors opining on this topic right now...

Take Cato's example. When someone says "My neighbor thinks he's Napoleon. He is delusional." in an informal context, you don't object.

413 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:49:38pm

re: #385 Gus 802

Stunningly placed 'indistinct' there >>

414 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:50:18pm

re: #408 Cato the Elder

Well, he can fuck himself with his opinions on God.


Yes, he can, but he is not trying to f*ck everyone else with his opinions on God, and that is a key point. Lots of people out ther are.

415 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:50:45pm

re: #412 Nimed

Take Cato's example. When someone says "My neighbor thinks he's Napoleon. He is delusional." in an informal context, you don't object.

mistaken ≠ mentally ill.

that's the basic error that Cato, SFZ, I and others are attempting to point out.

416 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:50:49pm

re: #406 Aceofwhat?

+ for zinger!

417 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:51:12pm

Aquinas in a locked room with Dawkins for five minutes. I'd pay to see that.

418 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:51:17pm

re: #416 windsagio

+ for zinger!

heh...you caught me...sometimes i can't help myself;)

419 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:51:51pm

re: #414 ralphieboy

He kinda is tho' >>

Oh I had to leave last time.

Since we're on the subject can we go back over the stunning delusion (there's that word!) that certain belief structures have about how they're 'persecuted'?

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:05pm

re: #390 Nimed

Well, some incorrect beliefs at least are clearly signs of mental illness.

Incorrect beliefs can be signs of an underlying mental illness, but they do not necessarily indicate one. You can be mistaken, even stubbornly so, without being crazy.

And religious beliefs, especially those learned from families and society, clearly do not fall into that category. It's not an indication of a malfunctioning brain to believe what you learned in Sunday School.

421 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:05pm

re: #418 Aceofwhat?

Lets be honest here.

This is the most satisfying subject of all to burn people on >>

422 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:10pm

re: #406 Aceofwhat?

we know that you don't get it.

Heh. Okay, Ace. So what exactly is it that you get that I don't?

423 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:15pm

re: #419 windsagio

He kinda is tho' >>

Oh I had to leave last time.

Since we're on the subject can we go back over the stunning delusion (there's that word!) that certain belief structures have about how they're 'persecuted'?

maybe. what's it worth to you;)

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:23pm

re: #391 Guanxi88

ladies have it so hard in that arena, among others. Give a man a bottle of bay rum, and he's set and scented appropriately for any occasion.

It's not hard. It's one of my favorite things!

425 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:30pm

re: #393 reine.de.tout

How do you get the "May batch" of samples?

I tried clicking through to my past order to find it, but it says "error, not found"

Weird, I'll keep looking.

426 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:39pm

re: #415 Aceofwhat?

mistaken ≠ mentally ill.

that's the basic error that Cato, SFZ, I and others are attempting to point out.

I'm trying to generalize past the creationism thing. Saying "My neighbor thinks he's Napoleon. He is mistaken." is somewhat bizarre.

427 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:47pm

Also, I love to guess at people psychological motives, Cato does it too sometimes... we all do.

Its a far cry from calling someone pathological.

428 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:53:48pm

re: #422 JasonA

Heh. Okay, Ace. So what exactly is it that you get that I don't?

#415, i think. if that's not it, let me know.

429 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:54:09pm

re: #426 Nimed

I'm trying to generalize past the creationism thing. Saying "My neighbor thinks he's Napoleon. He is mistaken." is somewhat bizarre.

No, you're supposed to allow for the possibility he may be correct.

430 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:54:28pm

re: #404 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I'M not sorry. Identifying beliefs you don't agree with as mental illnesses is stupid and potentially dangerous.

Creationism is not a mental illness. Neither is liberalism, or racism, or atheism, or believing that your loved ones are sending you pennies from the next world. A perfectly normal brain can do all of those.

If you are disturbed by any of these belief systems, and want to learn to believe or think in a different way, a good shrink will already work with you.

Identifying religious belief as a mental illness, however, takes you straight down to the basement of Bad Crazy Town, whether you plan for it to or not.

Thank you for stating that so well.

431 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:55:27pm

re: #429 JasonA

Properly weighted with the evidence of course >>

That's the scientific way no?

432 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:55:28pm

re: #421 windsagio

Lets be honest here.

This is the most satisfying subject of all to burn people on >>

actually...i'm most satisfied by how good the burn is...the subject is immaterial.

how well did i or another take advantage of a set-up is the sole basis of my personal rating system...i don't know if that's common or not.

433 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:55:56pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

#415, i think. if that's not it, let me know.

We were talking about Dawkins in that branch of the conversation, actually. I mentioned that he didn't need to know anything about theology and you came up with your cute little quip.

434 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:56:17pm

re: #415 Aceofwhat?

mistaken ≠ mentally ill.

that's the basic error that Cato, SFZ, I and others are attempting to point out.

Mistaken is not the same as mentally ill.
Mentally ill is not necessarily the same as in need of treatment.

435 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:56:25pm

re: #420 SanFranciscoZionist

Incorrect beliefs can be signs of an underlying mental illness, but they do not necessarily indicate one. You can be mistaken, even stubbornly so, without being crazy.

And religious beliefs, especially those learned from families and society, clearly do not fall into that category. It's not an indication of a malfunctioning brain to believe what you learned in Sunday School.

I'll grant you religious beliefs from the get-go, since they are widely shared and embedded in most people's education. It's another thing entirely to generalize this to all beliefs.

436 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:56:43pm

re: #431 windsagio

Properly weighted with the evidence of course >>

That's the scientific way no?

No. Since we cannot disprove reincarnation we must accept that it's possible, no?

437 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:56:45pm

re: #419 windsagio

He kinda is tho' >>

Oh I had to leave last time.

Since we're on the subject can we go back over the stunning delusion (there's that word!) that certain belief structures have about how they're 'persecuted'?

That's not a delusion, that's a political strategy.

438 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:57:10pm

re: #432 Aceofwhat?

Pff, don't shame me!

I like it because people are so @(�$ dug in, so you get more mileage out of the reaction.

439 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:57:47pm

re: #437 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm talking about the other group that was claiming to be persecuted on here ;)

440 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:59:14pm

re: #426 Nimed

I'm trying to generalize past the creationism thing. Saying "My neighbor thinks he's Napoleon. He is mistaken." is somewhat bizarre.

ah. that is a slightly different angle...though valid, IMHO. Cato is saying that there is no harm in either mistaken belief.

I agree, and am also saying what SFZ is saying, which is that being mistaken is not the same as being delusional, much less mentally ill.

the napoleonic neighbor may present a symptom of mental illness, but if he's harmless, who cares?

creationism, communism, anti-AGWism, or the belief that drinking one's pee is mistaken belief, which is not a symptom of illness.

441 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:59:34pm

re: #429 JasonA

No, you're supposed to allow for the possibility he may be correct.

:)
I'll take the opportunity to say that I don't get how Napoleon Dynamite is considered such an hilarious movie, and I don't think I ever will.

442 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:59:38pm

re: #434 SanFranciscoZionist

Mistaken is not the same as mentally ill.
Mentally ill is not necessarily the same as in need of treatment.

well said.

Nimed - this.

443 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:59:47pm

re: #436 JasonA

No. Since we cannot disprove reincarnation we must accept that it's possible, no?

No, but we shouldn't call other people delusional if they do believe in it.

444 Bagua  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:59:55pm

re: #254 freetoken

Creationism is a mental illness, and should be treated as such.

re: #348 freetoken


Creationists are delusional, and mental health services should be available to them as it is with other delusional individuals.

I believe you are mistaking beliefs with delusional in the psychiatric definition.

445 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 2:59:58pm

re: #441 Nimed

:)
I'll take the opportunity to say that I don't get how Napoleon Dynamite is considered such an hilarious movie, and I don't think I ever will.

only someone who is mentally ill could make such a statement;)

446 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:00:20pm

re: #436 JasonA

If we're being perfectly honest yeah.

Just not very likely >>

447 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:00:25pm

re: #435 Nimed

I'll grant you religious beliefs from the get-go, since they are widely shared and embedded in most people's education. It's another thing entirely to generalize this to all beliefs.

A unique weird belief is more likely to indicate a medical problem, I'll grant you, but not necessarily.

448 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:00:52pm

re: #446 windsagio

actually let me rephrase:

We should accept that it might be possible. A slight but significant difference.

449 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:01:17pm

re: #439 windsagio

I'm talking about the other group that was claiming to be persecuted on here ;)

Which one was that? I think it's all a political strategy.

450 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:02:30pm

re: #443 Dark_Falcon

No, but we shouldn't call other people delusional if they do believe in it.

Or, we can, but we should acknowledge that it is not a mental illness to believe in reincarnation.

451 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:02:47pm

re: #438 windsagio

Pff, don't shame me!

I like it because people are so @($ dug in, so you get more mileage out of the reaction.

Heh. I'm too much of a "want to get along" sort to really enjoy digging that deep most of the time...

452 Bagua  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:02:55pm

re: #447 SanFranciscoZionist

A unique weird belief is more likely to indicate a medical problem, I'll grant you, but not necessarily.

Often there needs to be a combination of symptoms, and then there needs to be a distinct pathology, otherwise they are simply quirky or eccentric.

453 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:02:55pm

re: #449 SanFranciscoZionist

Fine, I'll be explicit :p

about 3 days ago some guy was on here whining about how atheists were persecuted for their (lack of) beliefs.

I really wanted to argue with them at the time, but I had things to do :(

454 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:03:15pm

To me, Pam Geller is sick, delusional, hate-filled, and dangerous.

I would still not be in favor of forcing her into some kind of "treatment". What this kind of crazee needs is public shaming by debate and by simply showing what she says and letting people make up their own minds.

Some people will agree with her, yes. Too bad. I still stand up for her freedom to be as disgustingly public about her derangement as she pleases.

455 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:03:39pm

re: #451 Aceofwhat?

Heh. I'm too much of a "want to get along" sort to really enjoy digging that deep most of the time...

we call it 'rational and being able to understand your own limitations'.

The hardest thing to do on the internet (it seems to me) is to admit that you might be wrong.

456 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:03:41pm

The DSM-IV defines a delusion as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.

I am inclined to disagree. By that definition, birthers are not delusional, nor are those who believe Obama visited Chicago today to meet with Louis Farrakhan. However, the DSM-IV also goes on to define a delusion as pathological if it is caused as a result of a pathology or a disease process. This then rules out stupidity, misinformation, dogma, or misperceptions.

457 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:03:53pm

re: #442 Aceofwhat?

well said.

Nimed - this.

I agree with both claims. All I'm saying is that we typically regard some mistaken beliefs as signs/symptoms of mental illness, some we don't, and the criteria we employ is not clear to me.

458 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:04:12pm

re: #454 Cato the Elder

To me, Pam Geller is sick, delusional, hate-filled, and dangerous.

I would still not be in favor of forcing her into some kind of "treatment". What this kind of crazee needs is public shaming by debate and by simply showing what she says and letting people make up their own minds.

Some people will agree with her, yes. Too bad. I still stand up for her freedom to be as disgustingly public about her derangement as she pleases.

Cato, no one on this thread advocated forcing people into treatment.

459 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:04:30pm

re: #454 Cato the Elder

I think she's that way partially due to the 'echo chamber' effect. Like you said, exposure to other ideas (real exposure note) is the best antidote to that.

460 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:05:16pm

re: #458 JasonA

Cato, no one on this thread advocated forcing people into treatment.

It's implicit when you say "[belief X] is a mental illness and should be treated as such".

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:06:01pm

re: #453 windsagio

Fine, I'll be explicit :p

about 3 days ago some guy was on here whining about how atheists were persecuted for their (lack of) beliefs.

I really wanted to argue with them at the time, but I had things to do :(

I had a friend once who would tell you how persecuted she was for being a pagan. Her coven had been SHOT AT.

Turns out they'd been shot at because they snuck onto some poor unsuspecting farmer's land to do a ritual. I ain't gonna say he was necessarily correct in firing a shotgun in the direction of some odd-looking people creeping around his pasture, but I don't think he bothered to check their religious affiliations before he opened fire.

462 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:06:35pm

re: #433 JasonA

We were talking about Dawkins in that branch of the conversation, actually. I mentioned that he didn't need to know anything about theology and you came up with your cute little quip.

Ah. I see. I will amend.

A person who knows little about theology will not understand how to relate to those with a religious belief. It seems quite clear; why would you expect him to be able to write something relevant without any real experience with matters spiritual?

463 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:06:57pm

re: #460 Cato the Elder

Ah. I owe you a coke. I read Freetoken's post where he said it should be available, but not the earlier one where he said that.

464 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:07:06pm

Let's drop the whole "treatment" thing. Nobody suggested that in the first place, and it's obvious we don't require treatment for many mental conditions (for instance, phobias who don't interfere too much with one's life).

465 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:07:23pm

re: #458 JasonA

Cato, no one on this thread advocated forcing people into treatment.

That's true. So let me pare my opinion back to the simplest possible: You cannot define creationism as a mental illness because it's not a mental illness.

466 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:07:26pm

re: #450 SanFranciscoZionist

Or, we can, but we should acknowledge that it is not a mental illness to believe in reincarnation.

That works too.

467 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:08:32pm

re: #464 Nimed

Let's drop the whole "treatment" thing. Nobody suggested that in the first place, and it's obvious we don't require treatment for many mental conditions (for instance, phobias who don't interfere too much with one's life).

PIMF for treatment phobias like people. It's a mistaken belief of mine.

468 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:08:44pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

The persecution angle is a better story!

(Which is the whole problem. Almost every group likes to partake in the persecution pie, but only a few are real victims.)

469 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:08:49pm

re: #462 Aceofwhat?

Ah. I see. I will amend.

A person who knows little about theology will not understand how to relate to those with a religious belief. It seems quite clear; why would you expect him to be able to write something relevant without any real experience with matters spiritual?

Ah. Well Dawkins isn't trying to preach to that choir (really bad pun intended). He knows they'll never bother to listen to him.

470 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:09:08pm

re: #464 Nimed

Let's drop the whole "treatment" thing. Nobody suggested that in the first place, and it's obvious we don't require treatment for many mental conditions (for instance, phobias who don't interfere too much with one's life).

Treatment was indeed suggested, and in a way that reminded me of certain "Christians" recommending treatment for gay people.

471 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:09:50pm

re: #457 Nimed

I agree with both claims. All I'm saying is that we typically regard some mistaken beliefs as signs/symptoms of mental illness, some we don't, and the criteria we employ is not clear to me.

we're human...we're inconsistent. i'd be happy to join you in enforcing a more strict usage of the term, if that's what you're after!

472 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:10:12pm

re: #470 Cato the Elder

Treatment was indeed suggested, and in a way that reminded me of certain "Christians" recommending treatment for gay people.

I used to object to that a lot more before I learned that it meant 'take them overseas on a holiday and have lots of sex with them'.

473 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:10:28pm

re: #464 Nimed

Let's drop the whole "treatment" thing. Nobody suggested that in the first place, and it's obvious we don't require treatment for many mental conditions (for instance, phobias who don't interfere too much with one's life).

A phobia is also not a mental illness, though. A perfectly functioning brain can have one or more.

If you want to be less afraid of spiders, or stop believing that the Lord God created the heavens and the earth in six days, a good therapist will work on it with you.

I think being afraid of spiders is more likely to negatively affect your quality of life, though.

474 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:10:57pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

I had a friend once who would tell you how persecuted she was for being a pagan. Her coven had been SHOT AT.

Turns out they'd been shot at because they snuck onto some poor unsuspecting farmer's land to do a ritual. I ain't gonna say he was necessarily correct in firing a shotgun in the direction of some odd-looking people creeping around his pasture, but I don't think he bothered to check their religious affiliations before he opened fire.

meh. a good coven would have known a protection spell/

475 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:11:02pm

re: #472 Renaissance_Man

I used to object to that a lot more before I learned that it meant 'take them overseas on a holiday and have lots of sex with them'.

LOL!

476 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:11:21pm

re: #473 SanFranciscoZionist

I love that point. Ever know anyone that said "I wish I could stop being a Creationist!"

Schizophrenics, or people with OCD on the other hand...

477 Tigger2005  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:12:21pm

Why does Obama have to go to Chicago to meet Farrakhan? Can't he just ring him up? I mean, don't they think Obama has "Louie" on his speed dial? "Yo Louie, it's the O-Dawg! How goes the plan to force all the WASPs in this country into concentration camps?"

478 Bagua  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:13:53pm

re: #456 Renaissance_Man

The DSM-IV defines a delusion as:

I am inclined to disagree. By that definition, birthers are not delusional, nor are those who believe Obama visited Chicago today to meet with Louis Farrakhan. However, the DSM-IV also goes on to define a delusion as pathological if it is caused as a result of a pathology or a disease process. This then rules out stupidity, misinformation, dogma, or misperceptions.

No, their beliefs, however wild they seem to us, are consistent with their subculture. Thus they may display stunning ignorance but they are not a sign of mental illness.

479 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:14:13pm

re: #469 JasonA

Ah. Well Dawkins isn't trying to preach to that choir (really bad pun intended). He knows they'll never bother to listen to him.

when that choir tells him he doesn't get it, the logical thing to do is take their word for it, since he's no preacher.

that would be the logical step...isn't he the sort who purportedly relies heavily on "logic"?

if i were to lecture a bunch of white people on the shortcomings of aborigines, being a WASP myself, would you excuse it under the banner of "well, he's not preaching to the aborigines, because they don't agree with his message"?

or would you say that i don't know shit about being an aborigine?

480 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:14:45pm

re: #477 Tigger2005

Your on-topic comment really came out of left field.

:)

481 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:14:59pm

creationism - mistaken belief
thinking you're Napoleon - strong sign of mental illness (even if harmless and not necessarily re: #471 Aceofwhat?

we're human...we're inconsistent. i'd be happy to join you in enforcing a more strict usage of the term, if that's what you're after!

Perhaps it's not inconsistency, but simple unawareness of our criteria. So no harm is definitely an important criterion. Degree of consensus at any given time is another (belief that a Komodo dragon is a God is stranger than mainstream religious belief). There may be others.

482 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:15:06pm

re: #478 Bagua

No, their beliefs, however wild they seem to us, are consistent with their subculture. Thus they may display stunning ignorance but they are not a sign of mental illness.

Indeed not. However, I think it is a delusion. It's not pathologic, but I think that definition of delusion is wanting.

483 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:15:18pm

Random religion story:

When I was in College, we had to do a speech class (you know how it is). For our group project, we decided to do a series on religion.

Everybody but me chose their own. And they were all agonizing and awful.

I talked about islam and went up there wearing what I called a 'snot rag' and mirror shades (my dad had brought it back from Iraq I). In hindsight that was really disrespectful, but it broke the tension :D

484 Bagua  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:16:05pm

re: #478 Bagua

Pimf: No, their beliefs, however wild they seem to us, are consistent with their subculture. Thus they may display stunning ignorance but they are not a in themselves signs of mental illness.

Surely some are mentally ill, and also have strange beliefs.

485 William of Orange  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:16:06pm

It becomes even harder to imagine that LGF used to be a rightwing leaning blog....

It doesn't mean the left is not equally messing up sometimes but at least LGF, to me at least, is nuetral ground.

486 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:16:52pm

re: #481 Nimed

Perhaps it's not inconsistency, but simple unawareness of our criteria. So no harm is definitely an important criterion. Degree of consensus at any given time is another (belief that a Komodo dragon is a God is stranger than mainstream religious belief). There may be others.

i'm on board with that...good work. i might modify your consensus bit to "degree of consensus given upbringing and social situation", but that's still an agreement with you...

487 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:17:25pm

re: #479 Aceofwhat?

My standard response to people who make statements about religion and logic/science.

Youtube Video
488 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:17:25pm

re: #479 Aceofwhat?

when that choir tells him he doesn't get it, the logical thing to do is take their word for it, since he's no preacher.

that would be the logical step...isn't he the sort who purportedly relies heavily on "logic"?

if i were to lecture a bunch of white people on the shortcomings of aborigines, being a WASP myself, would you excuse it under the banner of "well, he's not preaching to the aborigines, because they don't agree with his message"?

or would you say that i don't know shit about being an aborigine?

This isn't an either/or proposition. I used to be a believer, and discarding those beliefs was a very gradual process with stages. I remember reading Hitchens' "God is not Great" as the moment where I realized I was an atheist. It didn't necessarily turn me into one, just made understand that I already was one and there was absolutely nothing wrong with that.

489 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:18:21pm

re: #485 William of Orange

It becomes even harder to imagine that LGF used to be a rightwing leaning blog...

It doesn't mean the left is not equally messing up sometimes but at least LGF, to me at least, is nuetral ground.

Neutral? More like... demilitarized?

490 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:19:10pm

re: #487 windsagio

heh. +1

491 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:19:55pm

re: #490 Aceofwhat?

In my top 3 animated shows ever. The others are Venture Brothers and **REDACTED**

492 swamprat  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:20:32pm

re: #485 William of Orange

It becomes even harder to imagine that LGF used to be a rightwing leaning blog...

It doesn't mean the left is not equally messing up sometimes but at least LGF, to me at least, is nuetral ground.

We are not neutral ground. We are extremely partisan, but everyone to his own little chauvin-points.

493 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:22:12pm

re: #492 swamprat

I like Jasons thing, its more the DMZ.

we just keep the rage in check.

494 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:22:35pm

re: #488 JasonA

This isn't an either/or proposition. I used to be a believer, and discarding those beliefs was a very gradual process with stages. I remember reading Hitchens' "God is not Great" as the moment where I realized I was an atheist. It didn't necessarily turn me into one, just made understand that I already was one and there was absolutely nothing wrong with that.

that's ok. that's different than questioning Cato's statement that a person who doesn't know theology did not have relevant theological opinions.

knowing evolutionary biology and history does not make one magically relevant in theology.

495 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:22:53pm

re: #493 windsagio

I like Jasons thing, its more the DMZ.

we just usually keep the rage in check.

496 swamprat  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:22:54pm

re: #493 windsagio

I like Jasons thing, its more the DMZ.

we just keep the rage in check.

Me too. Much better phrased.

497 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:23:12pm

re: #491 windsagio

In my top 3 animated shows ever. The others are Venture Brothers and **REDACTED**

let me guess...it's pornographic;)

498 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:23:19pm

re: #493 windsagio

I like Jasons thing, its more the DMZ.

we just keep the rage in check.

re: #495 JasonA

Good ways to put it.

499 Bagua  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:23:58pm

re: #482 Renaissance_Man

Indeed not. However, I think it is a delusion. It's not pathologic, but I think that definition of delusion is wanting.

Right, I agree strongly. It is being co-opted and restricted to a disorder. In fact, all of us, even the most rational are subject to delusions, beliefs, magical thinking, and so on. It simply is more subtle and does not obviously interfere with our social and professional lives. Thus, uninteresting medically, but fascinating as a study of human consciousness.

500 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:24:14pm

re: #494 Aceofwhat?

Oh no, I didn't think I did. Could be wrong. Point is, Cato can criticize Dawkins all he likes, but the man's aiming at someone else.

501 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:24:35pm

re: #497 Aceofwhat?

haha, no! I'd totally be proud of that if it was tho.

Porno Chic was an awesome movement!

502 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:24:52pm

re: #500 JasonA

Oh no, I didn't think I did. Could be wrong. Point is, Cato can criticize Dawkins all he likes, but the man's aiming at someone else.

Preaching to the atheist choir, as it were.

503 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:25:18pm

re: #502 Cato the Elder

Heh, I totally resisted posting that the first time 'preaching to the choir' came up >>

504 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:27:36pm

re: #500 JasonA

Oh no, I didn't think I did. Could be wrong. Point is, Cato can criticize Dawkins all he likes, but the man's aiming at someone else.

You did, a bit. This is your #402, to which i originally made a smartass little quip;)

He does not need to. He knows evolutionary biology and he knows history. I don't see how theological knowledge would make his position stronger.
505 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:29:00pm

re: #502 Cato the Elder

Preaching to the atheist choir, as it were.

More like the choir huddling near the boundary between lapsed-[insert religion here] and atheism.

I think it might seem I've been speaking of the man's intent, and I shouldn't be doing that. In practice, based on what he's said, I don't see his message penetrating people without some doubt already.

I've read his book and Hitchens' and I have to say I'm surprised the latter doesn't get more attention. He is far more insulting towards religious beliefs.

506 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:30:48pm

re: #505 JasonA

Soundbites man. Its all about the soundbites.

507 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:31:27pm

re: #505 JasonA

Oh, don't worry. We have our "pile on Hitchens" moments, too!

508 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:32:01pm

re: #393 reine.de.tout

How do you get the "May batch" of samples?

I don't think they are selling it now. Maybe they will put together a sample pack for June. I like that option because I am overwhelmed by the choices.

509 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:33:17pm

re: #505 JasonA

More like the choir huddling near the boundary between lapsed-[insert religion here] and atheism.

I think it might seem I've been speaking of the man's intent, and I shouldn't be doing that. In practice, based on what he's said, I don't see his message penetrating people without some doubt already.

I've read his book and Hitchens' and I have to say I'm surprised the latter doesn't get more attention. He is far more insulting towards religious beliefs.

Hitchens's (he's singular, not plural) insults bother me no more than Bill Maher's dumb movie.

It's when someone who's a biologist by trade and thinks that expertise makes him less than pig-ignorant about other things that I get riled up.

510 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:35:49pm

re: #494 Aceofwhat?

that's ok. that's different than questioning Cato's statement that a person who doesn't know theology did not have relevant theological opinions.

knowing evolutionary biology and history does not make one magically relevant in theology.

Given that Dawkins sees the entire field of theology as based on a completely bankrupt and illogical idea, he doesn't want to be relevant in theology.

511 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:36:40pm

re: #509 Cato the Elder

Have you read Darwin's Dangerous Idea, yet?

512 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:36:44pm

re: #510 Obdicut

Given that Dawkins sees the entire field of theology as based on a completely bankrupt and illogical idea, he doesn't want to be relevant in theology.

Mission accomplished!

How are you?

513 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:36:47pm

re: #473 SanFranciscoZionist

I think being afraid of spiders is more likely to negatively affect your quality of life, though.

It depends. Think pork chops and blood transfusions.

514 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:38:59pm

re: #505 JasonA

re: #509 Cato the Elder

re: #511 Obdicut

Have you read Darwin's Dangerous Idea, yet?

Dennett is by far the the most interesting and clearer thinker of the lot. Darwin's Dangerous Idea is a great book, and Consciousness Explained is even better.

515 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:39:06pm

re: #510 Obdicut

That's what actually bugs me about the whole thing.

The illusion of certainty.

516 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:39:58pm

re: #515 windsagio

That's what actually bugs me about the whole thing.

The illusion of certainty.

of what?

517 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:41:09pm

re: #509 Cato the Elder

Hitchens's (he's singular, not plural) insults bother me no more than Bill Maher's dumb movie.

It's when someone who's a biologist by trade and thinks that expertise makes him less than pig-ignorant about other things that I get riled up.

He's a defender of evolution. Has he gone overboard in his offensive on religion? You say yes, I say no. But I see that as what he's fighting for.

As for your other point:

If a singular noun ends with an /s/ or a /z/ sound (spelled with -s, -se, -z, -ce, for example), practice varies as to whether to add 's or the apostrophe alone. A widely accepted practice is to follow whichever spoken form is judged better: the boss's shoes, Mrs Jones' hat (or Mrs Jones's hat, if that spoken form is preferred). In many cases, both spoken and written forms differ between writers. (See details below.)

I might not be right, but don't tell me I'm wrong.

518 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:41:30pm

re: #512 Aceofwhat?

Mightily pissed off for a wide variety of reasons. The anti-choice protesters outside the abortion clinic were using photos of dead soldiers, for some fucked up reason, to protest the abortion clinic today. They reduced one woman to tears by mocking her because she'd gotten the day of her appointment confused, and displayed their basic misunderstanding of biology by asking if she was going to go get pregnant again so she could get two abortions at once. They threatened my fiancée, who despite her cold, was doing escort duty, saying they hope she choked to death.

Such lovely people.

Also, someone working at the bridal shop where our maid of honor was buying her dress, instead of ordering the dress, ripped off the debit card info and got all the money out of her account, and then skipped town.

At least my cats are enjoying the sunshine.

519 Tigger2005  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:42:44pm

The dad-gummist STUPID Christian apologetic argument I have ever heard is the "Trilemma," introduced by fantasy and sci-fi writer C.S. Lewis. Many Christians defer to Lewis as if he was some kind of infallible genius simply because he was an Oxford professor and a successful writer. This apparently makes him the intellectual equal of Stephen Hawking.

The "Trilemma" says that Jesus was either "liar, lunatic, or Son of God." It boggles me that anybody can take this chuckleheaded argument seriously. "Either he was lying when he said he was the Son of God, or he was crazy, or he was what he said he was." Sure, if you just close your mind to several other blatantly obvious possibilities. Such as:

There was no Jesus. People invented him, invented claims for him and put those claims in his mouth.

There was a Jesus, but he never said the things people claimed he said. They made the statements up later and put them in his mouth.

Jesus existed and was not crazy or a lying megalomaniac. For various reasons he sincerely believed he was the Son of God, but he was mistaken.

In any event the Trilemma is nothing but circular logic. Just because the choices are "liar, lunatic, or Son of God," Lewis still gives no good REASON to believe Jesus is the Son of God, other than it's scary to admit that your belief system could be false. The Bible says it, so it's true... it's true because it's in the Bible.

The guy could write a good story, but he was a crappy apologist.

520 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:43:56pm

re: #516 Varek Raith

Of his own correctness really.

Given that Dawkins sees the entire field of theology as based on a completely bankrupt and illogical idea, he doesn't want to be relevant in theology.

He always comes across as absolutely certain he's correct and that the possibility that he's wrong is laughable at best.

Its poor logic and thinking, and combined with the pretension of superiority, its damn annoying..

521 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:45:16pm

re: #520 windsagio

He's presenting his argument strongly. That's all. He is definitely certain the science is correct, since he is the world's leading expert on it.

Can you point out an example of Dawkin's poor logic, please, to back up your claim?

522 engineer cat  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:46:14pm

President Zombie Ronald Reagan Calls On Nation For, Assistance, Tax Cuts, For BP, In Dramatic Speech In New Orleans

blames "overregulation" for disaster, calls for on nation to help BP with tax breaks and other financing in its "moment of crisis"; assails critics of BP as "seeking to undermine our national energy security"

Department of HHS Declares Petroleum a Vegetable


"Madame Speaker, Tear Down That Wall Of Regulation"

523 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:46:54pm

re: #517 JasonA

I might not be right, but don't tell me I'm wrong.

OK.

Wikipedia would not be my source for authoritative grammar advice, however.

524 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:48:00pm

re: #523 Cato the Elder

I could pull up many more in favor of my grammar, and I'm sure you could do the same.

525 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:48:29pm

Still fighting the Grammar Wars, eh?

526 engineer cat  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:48:49pm

paugh! stupid commas....

President Zombie Ronald Reagan Calls On Nation For Assistance, Tax Cuts, For BP In Dramatic Speech In New Orleans

527 Tigger2005  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:49:04pm

Why dig up Reagan to make this speech? I'm sure Ron or Rand Paul would be only too happy to give it.

re: #522 engineer dog

President Zombie Ronald Reagan Calls On Nation For, Assistance, Tax Cuts, For BP, In Dramatic Speech In New Orleans

blames "overregulation" for disaster, calls for on nation to help BP with tax breaks and other financing in its "moment of crisis"; assails critics of BP as "seeking to undermine our national energy security"

Department of HHS Declares Petroleum a Vegetable


"Madame Speaker, Tear Down That Wall Of Regulation"

528 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:50:20pm

re: #518 Obdicut

That your fiancee is an escort says everything for me. About her and you.

529 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:50:38pm

re: #525 Varek Raith

Still fighting the Grammar Wars, eh?

They never end. At least it's a bloodless conflict.

530 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:50:56pm

punctuationisoptionalnobodyreallyneedsitanywayandifyousaydifferentyoureapedanticprigwithyourheaduptheassofthenineteenthcentrycomeonmangetwithitthisistheageoftheinternetandelegantwritingisfordicks

531 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:51:31pm

re: #528 Stanley Sea

That your fiancee is an escort says everything for me. About her and you.

That comment was really weird without having read Obdicut's first.

532 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:51:32pm

re: #530 Cato the Elder

punctuationisoptionalnobodyreallyneedsitanywayandi fyousaydifferentyoureapedanticprigwithyourheadupth eassofthenineteenthcentrycomeonmangetwithitthisist heageoftheinternetandelegantwritingisfordicks

He's lost it. Poor bastard.

533 Nimed  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:51:46pm

re: #517 JasonA

re: #523 Cato the Elder

Re-posting this...

Youtube Video
534 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:52:07pm

re: #521 Obdicut

Saying that the science leads to a positive proof of atheism. See boondocks clip above.

535 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:52:20pm

re: #530 Cato the Elder

punctuationisoptionalnobodyreallyneedsitanywayandi fyousaydifferentyoureapedanticprigwithyourheadupth eassofthenineteenthcentrycomeonmangetwithitthisist heageoftheinternetandelegantwritingisfordicks

Well,,,I could go on about it,,,

536 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:52:32pm

re: #530 Cato the Elder

punctuationisoptionalnobodyreallyneedsitanywayandi fyousaydifferentyoureapedanticprigwithyourheadupth eassofthenineteenthcentrycomeonmangetwithitthisist heageoftheinternetandelegantwritingisfordicks

tl;dr

537 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:52:45pm

re: #531 JasonA

That comment was really weird without having read Obdicut's first.

yeah, sometimes clarity isn't my friend.

538 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:52:46pm

re: #535 Stanley Sea

Well,,,I could go on about it,,,

Satt?

539 Tigger2005  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:53:07pm

re: #531 JasonA

That comment was really weird without having read Obdicut's first.

LOL no shit.

Although I wouldn't mind finding my fiance at THAT kind of escort service. Yeah, I'm shallow that way.

540 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:53:08pm

re: #518 Obdicut

woah. i'm going to play tennis in about a half-hour...that's about all i have.

sorry dude.

541 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:53:22pm

re: #530 Cato the Elder

Finnegans Wake is a great book. The apostrophe placement for possessives is not a vital grammatical construct. A lot of 'rules' of grammar aren't rules, but conventions.

And more people need to read Politics and the English Language.

542 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:53:40pm

re: #536 Renaissance_Man

tl;dr

I felt dirty writing that, by the way - there's almost nothing on the internet that annoys me more than that.

543 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:54:18pm

re: #534 windsagio

Saying that the science leads to a positive proof of atheism. See boondocks clip above.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to watch a goddamn Boondock's clip for information about a serious philosophical subject. And can you point out the actual claim that Dawkin's made that you feel is illogical, rather than paraphrasing it?

544 engineer cat  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:54:25pm

re: #527 Tigger2005

Why dig up Reagan to make this speech? I'm sure Ron or Rand Paul would be only too happy to give it.

i was pissed off becuz my "conservative" correspondents have been fishing up zombie ronald reagan's shoes in order to declare that obama is not good enough to kiss them

545 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:54:59pm

re: #542 Renaissance_Man

I felt dirty writing that, by the way - there's almost nothing on the internet that annoys me more than that.

The only time I ever use it is when someone leaves a long flounce post.

546 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:55:21pm

re: #539 Tigger2005

LOL no shit.

Although I wouldn't mind finding my fiance at THAT kind of escort service. Yeah, I'm shallow that way.

FAIL on my part.

I am really in awe of Obdicut's fiancee for being an escort at a clinic, and having to deal with the vitriol and possible assault that comes along with it. Obdi comes from the right place imo.

547 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:56:00pm

re: #542 Renaissance_Man

I felt dirty writing that, by the way - there's almost nothing on the internet that annoys me more than that.

I'm clueless. Should I look it up?

548 Varek Raith  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:56:22pm

re: #547 Stanley Sea

I'm clueless. Should I look it up?

Stands for "Too long, didn't read".

549 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:57:34pm

re: #548 Varek Raith

Stands for "Too long, didn't read".

oh, thought it was gross or something!

550 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:57:43pm

re: #546 Stanley Sea

Most of the other escorts are OB/GYNs and nurses who work OB/GYN. They have interesting conversations, at least.

The clinic is a block away, so it's easy for us to escort. And unlike in some towns, these people aren't actually aggressive, just hateful.

551 engineer cat  Sun, May 30, 2010 3:59:51pm

re: #541 Obdicut

Finnegans Wake is a great book. The apostrophe placement for possessives is not a vital grammatical construct. A lot of 'rules' of grammar aren't rules, but conventions.

And more people need to read Politics and the English Language.

joyce left out the apostrophe in his title in order to provoke us to thought

and linguists take the point of view that there are no Laws of Grammatick except in as much as native speakers of a language at any given time regard some constructions as correct and others as ill-formed, which judgement changes over time. since linguists write dictionaries, grammarians are sometimes described as people who "purport" to know the rules of grammar

descriptions of english grammar have not yet fully recovered from the origin of grammar in greek and latin...

552 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:00:29pm

re: #541 Obdicut

Finnegans Wake is a great book. The apostrophe placement for possessives is not a vital grammatical construct. A lot of 'rules' of grammar aren't rules, but conventions.

And more people need to read Politics and the English Language.

You tread on dangerous ground if you think to use Joyce against me. I'm something of an expert on him. The apostrophe was left out on purpose in order to give the title multiple possible meanings. It is not there for a reason.

And the only thing I need to do is die. Other people can do as they please.

I judge people on how they write. My sister writes like a walking book of clichés, and that's how she sees the world, as a set of set pieces.

It may not be fair, it may be old-fashioned, but I think less of people who can't express themselves in standard English, or who think txtmssg talk is OK for other uses.

553 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:01:52pm

re: #552 Cato the Elder


It may not be fair, it may be old-fashioned, but I think less of people who can't express themselves in standard English, or who think txtmssg talk is OK for other uses.

I don't think textspeak is even okay for texting.

I don't text much.

554 swamprat  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:03:50pm

Bryan Patterson
Friday, October 24, 2008 at 02:36pm


`A serious case could be made for a deistic God’’.

This is a remarkable statement from Richard Dawkins during a second debate this week with Oxford maths professor John Lennox.
Dawkins had previously said that believing in a creator of the universe was no different from believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden.

Now he says a serious case can be made for the idea that the universe was brought into being by some kind of purposeful force. A creator.

No, he is not saying he is a deist; and certainly not a believer in the Christian,Islamic. Jewish God.

555 engineer cat  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:04:34pm

i, personally, am in favor of constructions such as "-s'" or "-s's" for the possessive in words ending with "-s". it makes for clarity. the one rule that linguists like to apply in grammar is clearness of expression

556 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:04:43pm

re: #543 Obdicut

I'll give you the gist of it, then.

"The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence."

As to the latter , its not worth searching out clips. You know exactly the mindset I'm talking about, its endemic.

557 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:05:05pm

re: #541 Obdicut

That's what I'm saying!

558 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:05:22pm

re: #549 Stanley Sea

Its actually pretty rude and dismissive. Use with caution!

559 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:05:55pm

As an atheist it feels weird bringing this up, but it is the most printed book ever, right?

When Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses' father in law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt;

560 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:06:39pm

re: #559 JasonA

Man, doesn't "Jethro" always make you think of The Beverly Hillbillies?

561 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:06:57pm

re: #560 windsagio

Man, doesn't "Jethro" always make you think of The Beverly Hillbillies?

Tull, actually.

562 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:08:49pm

re: #552 Cato the Elder

If I have any textual areas of expertise aside from Wodehouse, Borges, and Bulgakov, it's Joyce. I'm not using Joyce against you-- I don't even really understand what you mean by that.

The apostrophe was left out on purpose in order to give the title multiple possible meanings.

I'd say it was left out to give it multiple meanings, not multiple possible meanings.

It is not there for a reason.

Now that's a grammatically interesting sentence. A lot of grammarians would say that sentence was clunky and malformed, but I think it's purty.


And the only thing I need to do is die. Other people can do as they please.

That's nice.


I judge people on how they write. My sister writes like a walking book of clichés, and that's how she sees the world, as a set of set pieces.

Cranky old grammarian is itself kind of a cliché , but I get your meaning. I judge people overly on their use of language as well; however, I get more annoyed at people who use extra-fancy language in order to say bullshit than I do people who earnestly screw up grammar and punctuation while trying to communicate.

563 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:09:45pm

re: #561 JasonA

Christ, I hate Tull.

564 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:10:04pm

re: #556 windsagio

I'll give you the gist of it, then.

"The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence."

As to the latter , its not worth searching out clips. You know exactly the mindset I'm talking about, its endemic.

No, I don't. In fact, Dawkin's has not said what you claim that he has. If you're unable to back up your assertion, you shouldn't expect anyone to treat it seriously.

565 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:10:13pm

re: #563 windsagio

Christ, I hate Tull.

Never said I liked the guy.

566 swamprat  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:11:03pm

re: #552 Cato the Elder

I told my daughter that english was a fluid language, and that the rules and grammar and meanings of words changed over the years, and that the true test of correct english was whether or not the other person understood the meaning that you wished to convey.

She said; "So the rules don't matter?"

I replied; "You can't break the rules until you understand them, and can use them correctly."

567 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:12:50pm

re: #564 Obdicut

I'm not a disciple of his, I admit.

I'm perfectly happy to depersonalize the statement, how about we focus it directly on the LGF community where the concept I'm objecting to has been expressed many, many times?

568 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:13:33pm

re: #564 Obdicut

it is fun that we can totally be at each other on one subject, but I wholeheartedly defend what you're saying on the language convo :D

569 engineer cat  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:15:16pm

jethro tull the band was named after an historical jethro tull

570 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:15:44pm

re: #568 windsagio

it is fun that we can totally be at each other on one subject, but I wholeheartedly defend what you're saying on the language convo :D

If Cato thinks the possessive singular must be followed by an s in the case of a word that ends in one then he is, quite simply, delusional.

///

571 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:21:08pm

re: #570 JasonA

If Cato thinks the possessive singular must be followed by an s in the case of a word that ends in one then he is, quite simply, delusional.

///

There are exceptions, most notably for Biblical or classical names, as you pointed out above.

But anyone who thinks "I'm going over to my friend Jens' house for dinner" is correct usage is, quite simply, pignorant.

I have a cousin name Alex, and her sister recently wrote me a email about "visiting Alex' place". Their mother was a librarian and would spin in her grave if she saw that.

572 Aceofwhat?  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:23:21pm

tennis time! bbl-

573 Stanghazi  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:24:43pm

re: #563 windsagio

Christ, I hate Tull.

That is the bad one. There are better.

574 engineer cat  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:25:33pm

I'm going over to my friend Jens'

would tend to communicate that you had a friend named "Jens"

some swedish guy, i guess...

575 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:26:05pm

re: #573 Stanley Sea

WUB likes to Karaoke Aqualung.


/I admit I'm exaggerating some too, they're pretty easy to make fun of tho :D

576 swamprat  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:34:09pm

re: #574 engineer dog

I'm going over to my friend Jens'

would tend to communicate that you had a friend named "Jens"

some swedish guy, i guess...


But! The fact that we use an apostrophy to indicate both a contraction and possession adds confusion to the language;
Jen's... could be "Jen is".
Jen's... could indicate "owned by Jen".
The apostrophy afterwards make the meaning clearer.

577 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:35:08pm

re: #576 swamprat

now now, the context makes it not matter :P

578 prairiefire  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:36:25pm

re: #552 Cato the Elder

Mr Joyce reading his work:

MP3 Audio
579 Four More Tears  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:37:27pm

re: #578 prairiefire

Is there an English version?

///

580 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:41:35pm

re: #567 windsagio

I'm not a disciple of his, I admit.

I'm perfectly happy to depersonalize the statement, how about we focus it directly on the LGF community where the concept I'm objecting to has been expressed many, many times?

No, it really hasn't. It's been perceived as having been said. You can't disprove the teapot.

There is also no need to disprove the teapot.

581 swamprat  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:41:36pm

re: #577 windsagio

I really suck at using apostrophes.
But oddly, I am very annoyed when people cannot differentiate between "then" and "than".

582 windsagio  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:43:19pm

re: #580 Obdicut

I love you Obdicut, but this just isn't true.

Its also a volatile subject, so I'll give you the last shot and lets drop it. No reason for us to go to war over theology.

583 Obdicut  Sun, May 30, 2010 4:52:23pm

re: #582 windsagio

I love you Obdicut, but this just isn't true.

Its also a volatile subject, so I'll give you the last shot and lets drop it. No reason for us to go to war over theology.

We're not anywhere close to going to war. I haven't seen anyone on LGF ever assert you can disprove god's existence. It would be a profoundly foolish and unnecessary statement, since there is no need to disprove god's existence.

A lot of people mistake the statement that it is bafflingly illogical to believe in god for one saying that science disproves the existence of god; the two are unrelated. There is no reason to believe in the supernatural, as Dennett demonstrates very well. That doesn't mean that the supernatural is disproved; it doesn't actually even arise to the level of disproof.


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