BNP on the Brink of Political Legitimacy?

World • Views: 2,920

The extreme right white supremacist British National Party could be on track to win six seats in June’s European elections—which would entitle these cretins to get funding from the European Union.

Through the looking glass we go.

The British National party could transform British politics and get up to �2m from the EU if the main political parties fail to prevent the far right organisation from winning six seats in the European elections in June, Peter Hain, the former cabinet minister and founder member of the Anti-Nazi League, warns today.

Hain also urges his own party to get its act together at the grass roots to fight the BNP in the elections. Some close allies of Gordon Brown, such as his former parliamentary aide and current government whip, Ian Austin, argue that the best way to combat the BNP is not to predict its success, but to tell the truth about its extremism, and to combat it at local level.

But Labour acknowledges at the highest levels that the elections could transform the BNP from a fringe party at local elections to a national party with European funding. There is also a debate on whether leaders of established political parties should steer clear of leading the fight against the BNP. Campaign groups such as Searchlight, the anti-fascist magazine, believe that attacks from mainstream Westminster figures will only add to the BNP’s anti-establishment credentials.

In an article for the Guardian, Hain warns: “Winning European seats would secure an unprecedented platform, and entitle the BNP to draw down hundreds of thousands of euros from Brussels indirectly to buttress their full-time personnel and organisation. With unemployment and job insecurity rising, with some major construction sites appearing to bar local unionised labour, and affordable housing in short supply, these are classic conditions for the BNP’s racist and fascist politics to thrive.”

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245 comments
1 debutaunt  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:53:53am

"Ladies, grab your seats."

2 Shug  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:54:05am

Next stop : A Seat on the UN Human rights council

3 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:55:26am

Are these seats to the international EU Parliament?

4 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:55:34am

Redistribution of tax money can distort a society in unforeseen ways.

5 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:56:25am

What a frakkin' mess. All the BNP needs is a speaker who can mesmerize the masses. Those folks have a huge mess to deal with and the folks caught in the middle are royally screwed.

6 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:57:44am

Ellwood: "british nazis"
Jake: "i hate british nazis........"

7 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:58:05am

re: #5 pingjockey

Of course, that notion also requires 'the masses' to be complete idiots.

8 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:59:00am

And, of course, the Front National in France has already "blazed the trail".

Just wonderful.

9 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:59:12am

re: #7 Wishbone
It appears a substantial portion of the masses are idiots. I don't know how many, but enough to get these vermin elected.

10 Shug  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:00:30am

re: #9 pingjockey

It appears a substantial portion of the masses are idiots. I don't know how many, but enough to get these vermin elected.

99% of neonazis/ skin heads have an IQ in the mid 70's or lower.
They are complete losers.

11 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:00:50am

I guess I'm confused by "european elections". What does that mean?

12 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:02:54am

re: #11 Sharmuta

I guess I'm confused by "european elections". What does that mean?

Elections for seats in the European Parliament.

13 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:03:16am

re: #10 Shug
I wouldn't give them credit to be able to pour sand out of a boot, with instructions printed on the bottom of the boot!

14 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:04:05am

re: #12 Charles

Thank you.

So if they did win these seats, they'd likely join with the far-right EU caucus with VB, and other various crypto-fascist parties. The one Wilders was considering joining, I believe.

15 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:04:08am

OT: Slight flying pig here... NPR News just blamed May Day riots in Berlin on, and I quote, "liquored-up leftists"!

16 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:04:09am

Quoting from above:
'In an article for the Guardian, Hain warns: “Winning European seats would secure an unprecedented platform, and entitle the BNP to draw down hundreds of thousands of euros from Brussels indirectly to buttress their full-time personnel and organisation. With unemployment and job insecurity rising, with some major construction sites appearing to bar local unionised labour, and affordable housing in short supply, these are classic conditions for the BNP’s racist and fascist politics to thrive.”'
(My emphasis)

And whose fault is that, Mr Hain?
Who has been governing this country for 12 years, and not only did nothing but created the conditions for this fascist scum to thrive?
Who has been calling Tories and their supporters 'fascists', and who has labelled anybone who tried to stand up for local people as 'racists', never mind that they only criticised the NuLab government?

Its not as if its totally unknown in Europe, that such conditions allow those like the BNP supporters to thrive.
So where was, where is the NuLab leadership, where were the NuLAb policies to prevent this?
Nowhere, Mr Hain! Nowhere, for 12 years, while you and your colleagues got rich on taxpayers' money.

17 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:04:32am

re: #3 Sharmuta

Are these seats to the international EU Parliament?

Yes.

18 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:04:39am

re: #7 Wishbone

Of course, that notion also requires 'the masses' to be complete idiots.

Germans as a whole are not complete idiots, yet most fell under the charms and charisma of a megalomaniac.

19 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:05:10am

This is what happens when mainstream political parties decide that topics such as immigration are outside the bounds of polite conversation. The extremists flood into that vacuum.

20 little boomer  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:05:36am

re: #13 pingjockey

I wouldn't give them credit to be able to pour sand out of a boot, with instructions printed on the bottom of the boot!

First time I've heard that the boot contained "sand".

21 gander  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:05:44am

In a country that offers welfare payments to non-Buddhist supremacists, it's the inevitable next step down the path of self destruction.

22 BignJames  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:05:55am

re: #18 FurryOldGuyJeans

Germans as a whole are not complete idiots, yet most fell under the charms and charisma of a megalomaniac.

Will it be all of Europe next time?

23 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:06:00am

re: #15 Occasional Reader


"liquored-up leftists"


heh

24 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:06:49am

re: #19 Occasional Reader
The EU has serious problems with their immigrants and couple that to the unemployment, etc...You have a ready made problem for the extremists to exploit.

25 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:07:25am

re: #20 little boomer
I have never understood why piss would be in a boot?!

26 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:07:43am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

heh

I nearly fell over. NPR!

27 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:08:10am

re: #11 Sharmuta

I guess I'm confused by "european elections". What does that mean?

The simplest way I have been able to figure it out is consider each nation in the EU to be the equivalent to a US state and the EU government to our Federal government. These elections are for their Federal government.

I know, not really the case, but this is a simple way to get a handle on the situation. Brussels is a lot more autocratic than is DC at the moment, but let's give it time considering we effectively now we have a single ruling party.

28 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:08:16am

£2m is about $3 million in real money. That's a lot of cash for the Nazi party.

29 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:08:22am

re: #14 Sharmuta

Thank you.

So if they did win these seats, they'd likely join with the far-right EU caucus with VB, and other various crypto-fascist parties. The one Wilders was considering joining, I believe.

See:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And griffin has already reached out to this caucus:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

30 jvic  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:08:49am

re: #18 FurryOldGuyJeans

Germans as a whole are not complete idiots, yet most fell under the charms and charisma of a megalomaniac.

Yes. When people are desperate, demoralized, and have nowhere to turn, whether or not they are idiots is usually irrelevant.

31 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:09:23am

In case you wonder - the European parliament is nothing more than a organistion to rubber-stamp the decisions taken by the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.
The European MPs get given huge sums of money, we call it the gravy train.
They do ot ahve the pwoer to influence European politics - tis a huge scam, and costs the European taxpayers huge sums of money.
As nobody ever sees such an MP during their four years of office, turn-out for those elections is generally around 35%, if that.

32 hellosnackbar  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:09:29am

And why are the BNP getting more votes?
Because they are the only party that opposes creeping muslim influence.
I knew this would happen;but it still makes me sick.

33 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:09:36am

Why are political parties subsidized by taxpayers?

34 VegasRick  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:09:48am

re: #15 Occasional Reader

OT: Slight flying pig here... NPR News just blamed May Day riots in Berlin on, and I quote, "liquored-up leftists"!

Toasted totalitarians.
F*** - up fascists.
Snookered socialists.

35 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:10:00am

re: #22 BignJames

Will it be all of Europe next time?

Only time will tell, but with the EU now connecting the disparate nations it does allow for it happen a whole lot easier than if they had remained totally separate.

36 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:10:53am

re: #24 pingjockey

The EU has serious problems with their immigrants and couple that to the unemployment, etc...You have a ready made problem for the extremists to exploit.

These problems however are not being dealt with by the EU parliament.
They are addressed at the level of the single member countries.

37 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:11:38am

re: #33 jaunte

Why are political parties subsidized by taxpayers?

Oh, important national defense work, of course.

38 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:11:54am

re: #30 jvic

Yes. When people are desperate, demoralized, and have nowhere to turn, whether or not they are idiots is usually irrelevant.

Any nation that submits to a despot has alternatives, but they are usually ones that require effort. Surrendering one's will and autonomy to a a man that spouts hope and change is easy.

39 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:12:25am

Well the BNP may well be on their way to "Political Legitimacy" but they're still bastards to me.

40 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:13:01am

re: #36 yma o hyd
Yep. And the countries are not adressing their problems. IIRC, France was rebuilt with the help of immigrants from N. Africa and 3 generations later, there is little or no assimilation. Plus with the pc lunancy over there, I fear for Europe.

41 nyc redneck  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:13:11am

re: #16 yma o hyd

Quoting from above:
'In an article for the Guardian, Hain warns: “Winning European seats would secure an unprecedented platform, and entitle the BNP to draw down hundreds of thousands of euros from Brussels indirectly to buttress their full-time personnel and organisation. With unemployment and job insecurity rising, with some major construction sites appearing to bar local unionised labour, and affordable housing in short supply, these are classic conditions for the BNP’s racist and fascist politics to thrive.”'
(My emphasis)

And whose fault is that, Mr Hain?
Who has been governing this country for 12 years, and not only did nothing but created the conditions for this fascist scum to thrive?
Who has been calling Tories and their supporters 'fascists', and who has labelled anybone who tried to stand up for local people as 'racists', never mind that they only criticised the NuLab government?

Its not as if its totally unknown in Europe, that such conditions allow those like the BNP supporters to thrive.
So where was, where is the NuLab leadership, where were the NuLAb policies to prevent this?
Nowhere, Mr Hain! Nowhere, for 12 years, while you and your colleagues got rich on taxpayers' money.

well said.
it is incredible that people feign surprise at developments like this.
wtf were they expecting?

42 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:14:23am

re: #39 realwest

Well the BNP may well be on their way to "Political Legitimacy" but they're still bastards to me.

Yup. Ignorant and unimaginative people who can't conceive of a national identity larger than their own ethnicity.

43 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:14:24am

re: #33 jaunte

Why are political parties subsidized by taxpayers?

Because said political parties are running the government that levies the taxes.

The theory expressed to the public to allow the mess was to reduce or nullify the influence of monied special interests. And this was BEFORE McCain/Feingold.

44 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:14:25am

re: #9 pingjockey

re: #18 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are 60 plus million people in this country. If you think for one minute that a sizeable proportion of that population put the shite that is the BNP where it is today, then you're drastically mistaken.

On the political scale, the BNP are a timy bunch of loser riding the back of populist issues and bolstered by the sensationalism of a press that should know better. Which is not to say they're completely harmless, but they're most certainly out on the very fringe of political thought when it comes to how the electorate thinks.

45 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:15:13am

re: #39 realwest

Well the BNP may well be on their way to "Political Legitimacy" but they're still bastards to me.

Yes, but they give the real problems, the crazy-assed Islamic nut cases, fuel for their cause. So, in a sense, this kind of poop only gives radical Muslims more reasons to act out.

46 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:15:16am

re: #33 jaunte

Why are political parties subsidized by taxpayers?

Thats due to the experiences countries had between the WWs.
It then was very easy for the super-rich to support such parties as the NSDAP, and to demand concessions in countries such as France, where they supported the hide-boundest parties, to the detriment of the country.

There is no tax-payers' money going to the parties here in the UK - thsu we have the perpetual scandals of rich donors 'buying' a seat in the House of Lords, and getting concessions from the government.

EU rules are, unfortunately, superseding country rules in this case ...

47 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:15:29am

re: #43 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think disconnecting the money from the interest produces greater distortions in the end result.

48 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:16:23am

re: #44 Wishbone
What I said was a big enough portion to elect some of these vermin to seats!

49 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:16:25am

re: #39 realwest

Well the BNP may well be on their way to "Political Legitimacy" but they're still bastards to me.

Even if they were to, say, send you a fruit basket?

/

50 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:16:53am

re: #42 jaunte
Hey juante. I agree with you that they are Ignorant and unimaginative people but that does not make them any less of a threat.
I meant it when I said that they may achieve political "legitimacy" but they'll still be bastards to me.

51 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:17:42am

re: #46 yma o hyd

That subsidy unfortunately creates a taxpayer class managed by a tax farmer class who know what's best for their charges.

52 jvic  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:17:46am

re: #32 hellosnackbar

And why are the BNP getting more votes?
Because they are the only party that opposes creeping muslim influence.
I knew this would happen;but it still makes me sick.

The West is sick.

A healthy West would be immune to creeping muslim influence.

The BNP types want to replace one disease with another.

53 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:18:18am

re: #4 jaunte

Redistribution of tax money can distort a society in unforeseen ways.

Here's a very sick example:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Social workers charged in starvation death

54 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:19:17am

re: #49 Occasional Reader
Even if they were to send me a Brazilian Swimsuit model!
:)

55 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:20:23am

re: #47 jaunte

I think disconnecting the money from the interest produces greater distortions in the end result.

I don't see political monies or lack thereof as even remotely part of the problem, it is just a symptom of the greed and arrogance of people who see themselves as elites and members of the political class as being better than the people they represent.

56 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:20:29am

re: #11 Sharmuta

European Elections: The collection of votes from the various European States; Each state's citizenry is comprised of socialist, egotistical cultures, each with it's own distinct language, customs and religions; who are in opposition to one another and competing for control of the European Union.

I think.

57 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:20:29am

re: #53 Bobibutu

That's horrible. Yes, like that.

58 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:21:48am
Wilders revealed that if his Party for Freedom - which occupies nine of the Dutch parliament’s 150 seats - runs in European parliamentary elections, he may join Vlaams Belang to form a larger right-wing bloc.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

For anyone still wondering about wilders- that should be a big clue, because the parties VB is in alliance with at the EU are unquestionably fascist with more fascists looking to join. This is the same VB and Wilders being held up by pamela and robert.

59 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:21:49am

re: #48 pingjockey

You're assuming that it takes many votes to get them there, if at all. If only ten people turn out and six vote for 'the Jedi council of upper Didsbury' then that's a majority and we'll all be using 'the force' from there on in.

re: #36 yma o hyd

These problems however are not being dealt with by the EU parliament.
They are addressed at the level of the single member countries.

These problems can, in many cases, be laid directly at the feet of the bloody EU. The rest can be put right at leftie Labour's door: Stupid bastards signed away just about every constraint against this sort of thing that we had.

60 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:22:17am

re: #50 realwest

Hey juante. I agree with you that they are Ignorant and unimaginative people but that does not make them any less of a threat.
I meant it when I said that they may achieve political "legitimacy" but they'll still be bastards to me.

Unfortunately, in a very few local councils, BNP politicians have actually been elected - thus they have already some sort of 'political legitimacy'.
Yes, they are and remain scum - but I have my doubts that they will gain seats in the EU parliament elections.
The main parties have more resources to fight in these constituencies, and those people who do not want to chose Labour or Tories or the LibDems, will go for the UKIP - thats the United Kingdom Independence Party. These are people who want to get the UK out of the EU - and they do have more followers than the BNP. They're also kooks, but not fascist scum kooks, if ye see what I mean ...

61 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:23:31am

re: #54 realwest

Even if they were to send me a Brazilian Swimsuit model!
:)

Not likely. They wouldn't have allowed her to immigrate in the first place!

62 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:23:36am

re: #52 jvic

The West is sick.

A healthy West would be immune to creeping muslim influence.

The BNP types want to replace one disease with another.

The West has always been a squabbling bunch of people right from the start because of the ideals of democracy, individual freedoms, and capitalism the Greeks bequeathed to us. Ironically that very lack of concrete solidarity is what has put the West at the forefront of world influence.

63 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:24:22am

re: #59 Wishbone
Ah. I didn't understand. Thanks.

64 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:24:37am

Let's party like it's the 1930's. Haven't I read all this before, some place, in a different time, maybe a different galaxy?

65 pingjockey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:25:09am

BBL, off to see the RC airplanes with the 9 yr old.

66 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:25:14am

re: #62 FurryOldGuyJeans

And what of the East?

67 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:25:15am

re: #51 jaunte

That subsidy unfortunately creates a taxpayer class managed by a tax farmer class who know what's best for their charges.

Yep - and it doesn't in the slightest prevent donors from trying to twist the politicians' arms, either.
Thats why this won't happen in the UK, too many people are totally against it.
Funnily enough, the Labour Party tries to get this revised after every election, because they have to rely on donations (involuntary ones!) from the Trade Unions - and it never sufficient. They are always heavily in debt ...

68 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:26:47am

re: #33 jaunte

Why are political parties subsidized by taxpayers?

Good question. We'll need a thorough investigation into this - subsidized by taxpayers, of course.

69 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:27:03am

re: #66 neverquit

And what of the East?

What about it?

70 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:27:26am

re: #66 neverquit

And what of the East?

Sauron is gathering his forces.

71 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:27:34am

re: #55 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't see political monies or lack thereof as even remotely part of the problem, it is just a symptom of the greed and arrogance of people who see themselves as elites and members of the political class as being better than the people they represent.

The political class has grown accustomed to using the taxpayers as a source of revenue for their personal career paths, making public policy. It may be futile, but I think it's worth pointing out that some taxes are used purely for the politicians' private benefit.

72 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:27:48am

re: #69 FurryOldGuyJeans

You had an interesting take on the West, just curious about your take on the East....Nothing sinister dude.

73 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:27:55am

re: #59 Wishbone

You're assuming that it takes many votes to get them there, if at all. If only ten people turn out and six vote for 'the Jedi council of upper Didsbury' then that's a majority and we'll all be using 'the force' from there on in.

re: #36 yma o hyd

These problems can, in many cases, be laid directly at the feet of the bloody EU. The rest can be put right at leftie Labour's door: Stupid bastards signed away just about every constraint against this sort of thing that we had.

Ye're telling me!

74 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:28:01am

re: #68 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Good question. We'll need a thorough investigation into this - subsidized by taxpayers, of course.

And conducted by the same people who are being benefited by the subsidies.

75 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:28:20am

re: #60 yma o hyd

UKIP are only kooks 'cos they haven't the political and traditional provenance of the tories or labour, Yma. In the same way that the difference between insane and eccentric is about 20 million quid in the bank.

At the very least, they have the right idea about getting us out of the EU and asserting a little common sense in our national dealings with the rest of the world.

76 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:28:53am

re: #70 Occasional Reader

Sauron is gathering his forces.

(Well, I wasn't crazy about those three movies, watched them over the last month, but at least I know what these references are).

Yuck.

77 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:29:54am

re: #60 yma o hyd
Thanks for that {yma} from Wiki on the UKIP

On 3 November 2008, the British National Party offered UKIP an electoral pact deal for the 2009 European elections. UKIP member Buster Mottram entered a UKIP executive meeting and proposed the BNP-UKIP pact, but the pact wasn't given a chance and then, according to the UKIP website, "he had to be escorted out by uniformed police officers."[8]

[emphasis realwest]
I reckon they really don't want any alliance with BNP, but this was unsettling to read and methinks that the UKIP bears close scrutiny.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

78 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:31:02am

re: #72 neverquit

You had an interesting take on the West, just curious about your take on the East....Nothing sinister dude.

I don't understand the question, really. The East doesn't have a history of having nations and leaders subscribing to individual freedoms and free-wheeling capitalism. Autocrats is what has been the norm there.

The East has nearly always looked to the West for innovations, especially when it comes to the weapons and tactics of war.

79 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:31:08am

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

I wasn't crazy about those three movies

Why do you hate Christians?

///

80 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:31:44am

re: #78 FurryOldGuyJeans

The East has nearly always looked to the West for innovations, especially when it comes to the weapons and tactics of war.

The Chinese invented gunpowder, Europeans invented the gun.

81 Reluctant Democrat  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:31:55am

Sad.

By going so far to the left, Britain and the EU are ensuring furious blowback from the right.

Multiculturalism is BS, but so is xenophobia.

82 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:32:08am

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

Let's party like it's the 1930's. Haven't I read all this before, some place, in a different time, maybe a different galaxy?

I was thinking the same thing myself ...

83 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:32:35am

re: #75 Wishbone
Well as I've said before, European politics are not something I particularly understand all that well, but you should see my #77.

84 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:33:07am

re: #79 Occasional Reader

Why do you hate Christians?

///

I don't hate Christians. I have a special place in my heart for Christians. I keep them in a bottle of formalderhyde on my shelf.
/

85 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:33:18am

re: #78 FurryOldGuyJeans

Don't know if I agree on that. But hey, I asked so I won't complain about the answer.

86 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:33:31am

re: #71 jaunte

The political class has grown accustomed to using the taxpayers as a source of revenue for their personal career paths, making public policy. It may be futile, but I think it's worth pointing out that some taxes are used purely for the politicians' private benefit.


Exactly!
And this happens everywhere!
We now have professional politicians who mostly ahve never done anything else in their lives but crawl up the ladder of aprty politics to end up with their snouts firmly in the taxpayers' trough.
Thats why no wWstern country will even think of limiting the time their parliamentarians are alowed to sit in teir parliaments.

Oh - and one interesting point is that the LLL politicians, while grabbing any dosh they can, will always point to conservatives who actually do and did have some jobs before they got into politics, and label them as filthy-rich millionaires ... never mind that they themselves have got much richer on the backs of all of us ...

87 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:34:09am

re: #71 jaunte

The political class has grown accustomed to using the taxpayers as a source of revenue for their personal career paths, making public policy. It may be futile, but I think it's worth pointing out that some taxes are used purely for the politicians' private benefit.

So much of the bloat of the government that people complain about in the abstract has been when politicians have covertly or overtly used public monies as methods to get re-elected.

People may complain about politicians being crooks or worse, but they keep re-electing their bum because he/she benefits them personally.

88 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:35:27am

re: #85 neverquit

I do agree with you regarding the autocracy. But, one could argue the same applies to the West to this day.

89 jaunte  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:36:00am

re: #87 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think of John Murtha, as an example, who benefits some of his constituents, while insulting them all and stealing from the rest of us.

90 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:36:14am

re: #77 realwest

They deserve better funding and support.; why should they deserve closer scrutiny? Did you not read the article you quoted?

Have another readl; specifically the bit that points out that the have a clause in their constitution that UKIP does not discriminate on grounds of race, is non sectarian and requires "all candidates to declare that they have no past or present links with far-right organisations."

Is there something you smell that I don't?

91 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:37:16am

re: #80 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The Chinese invented gunpowder, Europeans invented the gun.

You got dat right, dere! Firearms allowed Western nations to have a larger and much more easily replaceable military with the innovation of cheap and quickly produced guns. Training a grunt to point and put a match to a firepan is a whole lot easier than trying to train someone who to use a bow.

92 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:37:46am

re: #89 jaunte
Frankly I blame John Fucking Murtha's constitutents. They eleceted and re-elected that pos and now he's trying to do to all of us what he did to his constituents.

93 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:38:14am

re: #75 Wishbone

UKIP are only kooks 'cos they haven't the political and traditional provenance of the tories or labour, Yma. In the same way that the difference between insane and eccentric is about 20 million quid in the bank.

At the very least, they have the right idea about getting us out of the EU and asserting a little common sense in our national dealings with the rest of the world.

Ok - the pity is though that they don't keep to that single theme, of getting out of Europe and while we're in, to show what mess our mainstream aprties are getting us into, in the EU.
Some of heir representatives unfortunately do come up with pretty off-the-wall things when asked about general stuff.

Above all, they would have no chance if the mainstream politicians did their job properly, and didn't just enrich themselves the way they do.

94 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:38:17am

re: #82 Bobibutu

I was thinking the same thing myself ...

Yep, all these parties, racist, or skirting on the edge of being racist and bigots. Large groups of people feeling (some with good reason) disenfranchised from their own society and racial history. Leaders willing to take advantage of this for their own future gains. New technology able to spread both truth and lies at a new pace (such as the new wide spread use of the radio in the 1930's, the internet now).

All of this seems to be a formula what we have seen before, and we already know the outcome of mixing all this together. To bad human nature takes precedence over critical thinking.

No amount of anything is going to stop it.

95 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:38:20am

re: #85 neverquit

Don't know if I agree on that. But hey, I asked so I won't complain about the answer.

Then if you don't agree explain why.

96 jvic  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:38:26am

re: #38 FurryOldGuyJeans

Any nation that submits to a despot has alternatives, but they are usually ones that require effort. Surrendering one's will and autonomy to a a man that spouts hope and change is easy.

1. Any nation that submits to a despot has alternatives... A possible alternative is to become corpses strewn amid rubble.

2. Surrendering one's will and autonomy to a a man that spouts hope and change is easy. It doesn't seem easy to me. Hopefully I'll never find myself in a position where the temptation is serious because the alternative looks worse.

97 AuntAcid  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:39:28am

"With unemployment and job insecurity rising, with some major construction sites appearing to bar local unionised labour, and affordable housing in short supply, these are classic conditions for the BNP’s racist and fascist politics to thrive.”

decades of slap-dab progressive rule..and now "classic conditions" -
Well, whodathunk?

98 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:40:12am

re: #89 jaunte

I think of John Murtha, as an example, who benefits some of his constituents, while insulting them all and stealing from the rest of us.

I can think offhand 3 who are nothing but thieves in all but name. All three are Senators, all three are women, and 2 are the Senators from my state.

Nancy Pelosi, Maria Cantwell, and Patty Murray.

99 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:41:14am

re: #98 FurryOldGuyJeans

I can think offhand 3 who are nothing but thieves in all but name. All three are Senators, all three are women, and 2 are the Senators from my state.

Nancy Pelosi, Maria Cantwell, and Patty Murray.

Ooops! TWO are Senators, one is a Representative. My bad!

100 yma o hyd  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:41:34am

re: #97 AuntAcid

"With unemployment and job insecurity rising, with some major construction sites appearing to bar local unionised labour, and affordable housing in short supply, these are classic conditions for the BNP’s racist and fascist politics to thrive.”

decades of slap-dab progressive rule..and now "classic conditions" -
Well, whodathunk?

Aww - just twelve years of neostalinist NuLab goverment, that was quite sufficient.

101 zombie  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:43:00am
The extreme right white supremacist British National Party could be on track to win six seats in June’s European elections—which would entitle these cretins to get funding from the European Union.

The British National party could transform British politics and get up to £2m from the EU if the main political parties fail to prevent the far right organisation from winning six seats in the European elections in June...
In an article for the Guardian, Hain warns: “Winning European seats would secure an unprecedented platform, and entitle the BNP to draw down hundreds of thousands of euros from Brussels i/strong>indirectly to buttress their full-time personnel and organisation.

Yet more evidence why the parliamentary system is a steaming pile of cr*p. Taxpayers become compelled to fund the activities of fringe parties. Since fringe parties are, well, on the fringe, the vast majority of the populace disagrees with their platforms. But with the idiotic EU-style "public funding" of parliamentary democracy, even the most hateful or moronic groups are given mountains of free money -- from the very voters who hate them.

I realize that the EU system was set up to neutralize the flaws in the standard democracy -- i.e. corruption of political parties by the big financial donors, and the near-impossibility of minor parties to challenge the leading parties -- but from my perspective the parliamentary-style system causes more problems than it solves.

102 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:43:14am

re: #95 FurryOldGuyJeans

In my opinion, the proven documented history of Asia clearly and distinctly demonstrates that the Chinese, in particular, were more advanced in terms of language, art, religions, philosophy and engineering than the west.

jmho

That does not mean they are better now of course. Now, they merely are a tick and leech on the west.

103 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:44:15am

re: #96 jvic

Resistance to despotism is still resistance and while they might be dead they are not under the thumb of the autocrat.

It is always easier for someone to surrender their will to another so they no longer are required to make decisions for themselves. Being responsible for one's actions is hard.

104 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:44:25am

re: #80 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The Chinese invented gunpowder, Europeans invented the gun.

Actually... the Chinese are credited with inventing firearms, too.

105 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:45:09am

re: #90 Wishbone
What I smelled that, their constitution or whatever can say whatever they want it to say, but a proposal was made for a BNP-UKIP political pact - an alliance if you will.
I'm very pleased that it didn't go through, but the fact according to wiki is that the proposal was made by the BNP to the UKIP - methinks that the BNP would not have done that if they didn't think they had some chance of success and the BNP CLEARLY doesn't believe in what the UKIP's constitution says.

106 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:46:59am

re: #101 zombie

It's not that different here, as candidates get matching funds for their campaigns from the FEC. Well- 0bama didn't.

107 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:47:59am

re: #93 yma o hyd

They're not perfect Yma..... let's remember that they're essentially a fledgling party and, if you're going to throw votes at anyone in protest they're a clean proposition; unlike, for example, the BNP.

Also...... When their main policy promotion ran to the tune of 'let's get out of Europe', all that got them was the label of being a one policy party, a one trick pony who weren't worth wasting a vote on. You're right in that their members can be a bit....well, a lot... vague sometimes.

But if I wanted to make a protest vote, I could tick their box with a clean conscience

108 zombie  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:48:41am

re: #106 Sharmuta

It's not that different here, as candidates get matching funds for their campaigns from the FEC. Well- 0bama didn't.

Do fringe parties get matching funds? Or just the Dems and Repubs?

109 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:49:04am

re: #102 neverquit

In my opinion, the proven documented history of Asia clearly and distinctly demonstrates that the Chinese, in particular, were more advanced in terms of language, art, religions, philosophy and engineering than the west.

jmho

That does not mean they are better now of course. Now, they merely are a tick and leech on the west.

And yet did the Chinese expand their empire and try to become a world power? Nope.

Chinese engineering was actually quite stagnant. Once a certain goal was achieved that was it, no more innovation. Usually mandated by the Mandarins or the Emperor. There was not thirst for knowing simply for knowledge's sake.

What were and are the dominant languages spoken throughout the world the last couple of centuries? They certainly have not been Eastern ones.

110 MacDuff  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:50:11am

I think that the whole argument can be distilled down to one important point; evil cannot be defeated with another evil. At some point we, as conservatives, and as Americans, must show that we are made of sterner stuff and do so with the confidence that extremist ideologies cannot bear exposure for what they really are. We must not tolerate these people in our midst. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" psychology diminishes us, legitimizes them and we are forever linked.

Personally, I would prefer to be defeated with my honor intact than to share victory with people with the most unsavory and putrid of political philosophies.

111 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:51:01am

re: #104 Occasional Reader

Actually... the Chinese are credited with inventing firearms, too.

I stand corrected. But automatic shotguns, nuclear-tipped air to air missiles, & the eight-engined death bird are Western inventions.

112 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:51:23am

re: #102 neverquit

In my opinion, the proven documented history of Asia clearly and distinctly demonstrates that the Chinese, in particular, were more advanced in terms of language, art, religions, philosophy and engineering than the west.

I'd say that was true from the fall of the Roman Empire, up until the early 15th Century.

Now, they merely are a tick and leech on the west.

I really can't agree with that statement.

I certainly don't like the system the Chinese have developed for themselves, but it's hard to deny that they have become a powerhouse. Look around for how many objects in your house are made there. And with the sheer number of scientists and engineers they've been cranking out, look for them to increasingly be inventors and innovators.

113 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:52:30am

re: #104 Occasional Reader

Actually... the Chinese are credited with inventing firearms, too.

Yet did the Chinese constantly improve and innovate like the West has done?

114 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:52:39am

re: #106 Sharmuta
Yep, and iirc, Obama outspent McCain something like 7-1 and was the first Presidential candidate in 20+ years, from either party, to refuse the matching funds.
While I'd like to argue that candidates for President HAVE to take matching funds, the reality is that raises all sorts of questions concerning First Amendment rights.
And of course could lead to the matters stated by zombie.

115 Evil Klown  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:52:46am

This is what happens when people get sick of liberals running the government. They look around to vote for conservatives but there are none ... just more liberals who pretend to be conservatives.

116 Jr Ewing  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:53:23am

The BNP are like your typical democrat but with a strong anti immigration policy.

117 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:53:47am

re: #108 zombie
I think you have to have x number of names on petitions in any states you want to run in to qualify for the matching funds. But I'm not an expert on that and could be wrong.

118 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:54:01am

re: #113 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet did the Chinese constantly improve and innovate like the West has done?

Have you ever read Victor David Hanson's Carnage & Culture? I think you'd like it.

119 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:54:07am

re: #112 Occasional Reader

I really can't agree with that statement.

I certainly don't like the system the Chinese have developed for themselves, but it's hard to deny that they have become a powerhouse. Look around for how many objects in your house are made there. And with the sheer number of scientists and engineers they've been cranking out, look for them to increasingly be inventors and innovators.

I believe he was referring to Imperial China, not the current governmental setup.

120 Jr Ewing  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:54:17am

re: #115 Evil Klown

This is what happens when people get sick of liberals running the government. They look around to vote for conservatives but there are none ... just more liberals who pretend to be conservatives.

BNP are not conservatives.

121 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:54:59am

re: #116 Jr Ewing

The BNP are like your typical democrat but with a strong anti immigration policy.

Wish our Dems would have even a smidgeon of anti-illegal immigration in their DNA.

122 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:55:29am

re: #111 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I stand corrected. But automatic shotguns, nuclear-tipped air to air missiles, & the eight-engined death bird are Western inventions.

I still want a nuclear shotgun.

(I'm sure someone probably at least designed on in the 50s or 60s... they wanted to make EVERYTHING nuclear at the time.)

123 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:55:49am

re: #113 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet did the Chinese constantly improve and innovate like the West has done?

No, which is why I didn't say they did.

124 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:55:57am

re: #118 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Have you ever read Victor David Hanson's Carnage & Culture? I think you'd like it.

Currently reading it, just finishing up Lepanto. That is why I said what I have. ;)

125 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:56:16am

re: #116 Jr Ewing

The BNP are like your typical democrat but with a strong anti immigration policy.

Democrats do not have a platform of being "white only." Your statement is silly.

126 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:56:26am

re: #108 zombie

I believe the threshold is 5% of the vote in elections in most state and local races to qualify for local government money (non-federal seats). Here's the wiki entry on campaign finance laws, and public funding concerning federal elections.

127 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:56:48am

re: #105 realwest

Political pacts are offered by the most unlikely of prospective and/or distasteful allies all the time; I hope you're not so naive as to believe otherwise. It's who we decide to spit and shake hands with that tells us where we stand.

Since you smell shit somewhere in that Wiki article, I'll recount the entire paragraph in question for your consumption and, perhaps, comprehension:

Buster Mottram, a UKIP member who claimed to represent the BNP, made an offer of a pact between the BNP and UKIP for the 2009 Euro elections at a UKIP executive meeting. According to the UKIP website, Mottram "had to be escorted out by uniformed police officers."[33]. UKIP leader Nigel Farage has told the BBC that there had been an attempt "over many months" to infiltrate and try to "demoralise" UKIP members into thinking there was no future without a deal with the BNP.[34]. The BNP has stated that Buster Mottram, an ex-tennis star, has never been a member of the BNP and that the pact was his idea only[35].

So ...... which part of 'Escorted out by uniformed officers' gave you the notion that the UKIP were open to agreement?

128 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:57:03am

re: #119 FurryOldGuyJeans

I believe he was referring to Imperial China, not the current governmental setup.

I'm guessing the use of the word "now" indicates meant, er, now.

129 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:57:58am

re: #116 Jr Ewing

The BNP are like your typical democrat but with a strong anti immigration policy.

What the hell are you talking about? The BNP are white supremacists.

130 Mr Spiffy  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:58:13am

re: #5 pingjockey

What a frakkin' mess. All the BNP needs is a speaker who can mesmerize the masses. Those folks have a huge mess to deal with and the folks caught in the middle are royally screwed.

Too bad Obama's already got a job, still he should send in his resume anyway, you never can tell
/

131 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:58:22am

re: #123 Occasional Reader

No, which is why I didn't say they did.

Ok. I still think improving something is the key, especially if that makes for greater usage, not who invented it. The Chinese were not known for the former.

132 Shug  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:59:04am

Is there an equivalent in the United States?

David Duke was as close as we came recently.

but are there political parties/factions in the USA that could gain seats in government, state federal or local?

This is a scary prospect.

133 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:59:22am

IIRC- the reform party in MN won public funding when Jesse Venture won his seat for governor. I think also the Green party managed to hit the 5% mark in a few states with Nader returns. But that would have been state funding, not federal funding. I also believe parties have to maintain election returns for continued funding.

134 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:59:46am

re: #102 neverquit

One observation:

the Chinese, in particular, were more advanced in terms of language, art, religions, philosophy and engineering than the west

I would dispute the "religions" part, for the simple reason that I don't know what it means to be "more advanced" in religion. (Arguably, the "philosophy" part, too... was Chinese philosophy "more advanced" than, say, Plato?)

135 MandyManners  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:59:47am

re: #116 Jr Ewing

The BNP are like your typical democrat but with a strong anti immigration policy.

What in the world?

136 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:00:09am

re: #120 Jr Ewing

BNP are not conservatives.

They're fascists.

137 Jr Ewing  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:00:12am

BNP are not right wingers but they are a bunch of leftist white only racists.

138 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:00:41am

re: #128 Occasional Reader

I'm guessing the use of the word "now" indicates meant, er, now.

He also talked about China having a history of literature and culture, which China now has a decided dearth of thanks to Mao and in part his Cultural Revolution .

139 Mr Spiffy  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:01:15am

re: #18 FurryOldGuyJeans

Germans as a whole are not complete idiots, yet most fell under the charms and charisma of a megalomaniac.

That was last summer
/

140 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:01:42am

re: #137 Jr Ewing

BNP are not right wingers but they are a bunch of leftist white only racists.

And how the fuck does that make them the like our Democrats as you mentioned above. You are a fucking idiot.

141 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:01:43am

re: #131 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ok. I still think improving something is the key, especially if that makes for greater usage, not who invented it. The Chinese were not known for the former.

As has been pointed out by others (including VDH, I think), ironically the Chinese probably stagnated precisely because they had a relatively unified nation state. The constantly-warring European statelets kept the pressure on each other to innovate, particularly in weapons and tactics.

142 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:01:55am

re: #134 Occasional Reader

One observation:

I would dispute the "religions" part, for the simple reason that I don't know what it means to be "more advanced" in religion. (Arguably, the "philosophy" part, too... was Chinese philosophy "more advanced" than, say, Plato?)

There never was a history of Chinese philosophy. You accepted what the leaders said, no questioning allowed.

143 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:02:17am

Here we go again.

Repeat after me:

There's no such thing as a right wing extremist.
There's no such thing as a right wing extremist.
There's no such thing as a right wing extremist.

144 MandyManners  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:02:40am

re: #137 Jr Ewing

BNP are not right wingers but they are a bunch of leftist white only racists.

They're fucking fascists.

145 Shug  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:02:40am

re: #137 Jr Ewing

Left
right
left
right

these labels are getting tiresome.
They are racists. they are dangerous.

146 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:03:19am

The BNP, by the way, is ABSOLUTELY a far right wing party.

147 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:03:28am

re: #141 Occasional Reader

Won't get a dispute with me about that. We are just coming at the subject from different angles. ;)

148 Mr Spiffy  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:03:56am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

£2m is about $3 million in real money. That's a lot of cash for the Nazi party.

we're printing it as fast as we can

149 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:04:02am

From Minnesota Public Radio in 2000:

Meanwhile, the new Independence Party of Minnesota will turn its attention to helping the campaign of Jim Gibson, the party's candidate for U.S. Senate. Gibson, a software developer, favored the change to the Independence Party. Support for his candidacy seems to be widespread among party members, in contrast to their sparring on other issues and to the crowded field of DFL candidates hoping to take on Republican incumbent Rod Grams.

Gibson's showing in November is crucial for the health of the new Independence Party. He needs to receive more than five percent of the vote for the party to retain major-party status, which insures an automatic ballot listing and allows the party to receive public campaign funds.

The article is interesting because the MN reform party split with the national party over Buchanan.

150 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:04:37am

re: #143 Charles

Here we go again.

Repeat after me:

There's no such thing as a right wing extremist.
There's no such thing as a right wing extremist.
There's no such thing as a right wing extremist.

Charles, on this I can not agree.

Yes, I know you are being sarcastic. ;)

151 Shug  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:04:40am

Que the "Nazis were National socialists" line

1.....2........3

152 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:06:37am

re: #145 Shug

Left
right
left
right

these labels are getting tiresome.
They are racists. they are dangerous.

When you get that far out on the fringe the distinctions really start to disappear. Hate is hate, the subject of what one hates is the only difference.

153 JHW  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:06:56am

I posted in the spin-off links an article from Harry's place on the Hungarian Jobbik party, also poised to win seats in the European parliament. Their black uniformed militia looks disturbingly familiar, (Google search Jobbik. images,).
The Budapest Times says Jobbik has 5% support, " enough to gain seats in the European Parliament".

Also ,as recent as Apr, 17, a protest Holocaust denial march was made against the German embassy, among other places, by the Hungarian Guard. a related paramilitary group. They were protesting German criminalization of Holocaust denial.
Holocaust Denial March in Budapest

Spiegel article from late 2007;
Neo-Fascist Magyar Garda is 'Hungary's Shame'

154 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:07:18am

re: #137 Jr Ewing

BNP are not right wingers but they are a bunch of leftist white only racists.

Why don't you answer the question. How can you equate a white's only racist group with the US Democrats?

155 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:07:19am

re: #145 Shug

Left
right
left
right

Companeeee! HALT!

156 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:07:41am

re: #109 FurryOldGuyJeans

"What were and are the dominant languages spoken throughout the world the last couple of centuries? They certainly have not been Eastern ones."

Your answers here.

And here.

157 Spiritualized  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:08:27am
.... could be on track to win six seats in June's European elections

So they'll be six more Jew-hating degenerates at the EU?

No, wait, the amount will stay the same.

158 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:08:37am

The BNP is never respectable- they may have power but they can never be respectable.

159 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:09:51am

Later.

160 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:10:01am

re: #134 Occasional Reader

Development. I think the development of distinct forms of religion is older in the east, but I could be wrong.

161 MacDuff  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:10:14am

re: #132 Shug

Is there an equivalent in the United States?

David Duke was as close as we came recently.

but are there political parties/factions in the USA that could gain seats in government, state federal or local?

This is a scary prospect.

I don't think that David Duke was ever taken seriously. He's tried to "mainstream" himself, but the stench remains. The GOP shunned him like a leper when he claimed to be a Republican.

I would like to think that it couldn't happen here, with the operative phrase being "I would like to think".

Intelligent and informed individuals in forums such as this provide a powerful disinfectant to this strain of "Nazi Influenza" and we should thank "Dr. Charles" for making the vaccine available.

162 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:11:30am

europe is soooooooo fucked ... some sort of war is looming.

163 BignJames  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:12:10am

re: #146 Charles


Totally OT

I ordered an Anderson guitar today....for the $$, it should be able to play itself. Thanks for the tip!

164 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:12:45am

Actually, the policies of the BNP have more in common with socialist thinking which, if I recall the words of one other blogger correctly, makes them more 'Racist lefties' than anything.

Which goes to show just how useful the left / right political scale has become.

165 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:12:50am

re: #112 Occasional Reader

China is copying everything. It's a state sponsored copy-right violation. Then it turns around and finances the west with it's booty.

166 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #127 Wishbone
I have no problems with reading comprehension, thank you so much, and I did read that the "pact" was initiated by the BNP - unless you think the BNP was ignorant of the UKIP's constitution, why do you think an openly whites only group would make such an advance to the UKIP?
Oh and btw, you were the one to say "smelled shit" I didn't - I said something about it smelled - as in bears closer scrutiny.
And yes, I also read the part where the BNP said that Buster Mottram was not a member of the BNP - the article of course said that Buster Mottram was a member of the UKIP "representing" BNP in making that offer.

167 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:16:34am

re: #156 neverquit

"What were and are the dominant languages spoken throughout the world the last couple of centuries? They certainly have not been Eastern ones."

Your answers here.

And here.

Is Chinese used for air traffic control around the world? Is the world watching Bollywood movies on a regular basis? Those "statistics" you have linked don't even begin the address that aspect.

168 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:16:42am

Well I'm outta here for lunch y'all - hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

169 Gus  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:17:59am

Anyone see the off the wall BNP billboard?

On the left is states:

Church of England: Band
Press: Persecution
Police: Intimidation
BNO - Persectuted for saying what you think.

Then on the right it quotes, John 15:20, "If they have persecuted me, they will also persecuture you." Followed by What Would Jesus Do? Vote BNP. European Elections Thursday June 4th.

Article here.

170 Gus  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:20:13am

re: #169 Gus 802

Correction: Church of England: Band Ban

171 jvic  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:20:58am

re: #103 FurryOldGuyJeans

Resistance to despotism is still resistance and while they might be dead they are not under the thumb of the autocrat.

It is always easier for someone to surrender their will to another so they no longer are required to make decisions for themselves. Being responsible for one's actions is hard.

That is so generalized that I wouldn't call it right or wrong. I agree with your last sentence, though.

172 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:25:07am

re: #171 jvic

That is so generalized that I wouldn't call it right or wrong. I agree with your last sentence, though.

I live by the philosophy "You can kill me, but you can't eat me". A despot can kill me, all they will have is my dead body. But they will never take away my freedom of conscience.

173 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:29:51am

re: #166 realwest

You most certainly have a problem with reading what's in front of you. The article specifically states that Mottram, a UKIP member, made an approach to a UKIP executive meeting with regard to brokering a pact between UKIP and the BNP which resulted in his being removed from the meeting by uniformed officers....

And this, according to you, means that the 'UKIP bears close scrutiny' ?

Why?....... Explain yourself.

'Cos up to this point , you're stretching so far you must be close to breaking.

174 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:33:32am

re: #167 FurryOldGuyJeans

Much of the world does not use a toothbrush on a regular basis. What makes you think they watch Bollywood?

175 MacDuff  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:37:35am

re: #162 _RememberTonyC

europe is soooooooo fucked ... some sort of war is looming.

It's like some sort of Euro-amnesia. Much of Europe never had to suffer the full measure for their tolerance of fascism after WWII. The US rebuilt much of Europe and protected it. In retrospect, should we have? Yes, I think so; a war-torn, rubble strewn Europe without any aid or direction would have been inhumane, would have not been in our best interests and would probably have been even more problematic.

Alas, we created an environment where every weird political philosophy was allowed to grow and flourish and fascism, the weed that we thought long dead, has sprouted once again. Now it's embraced by a new generation that seems to be unaware (or uncaring) that this is the very philosophy brought their very continent to the brink of oblivion a mere 70 years ago.

176 Bloodnok  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:41:22am

OT - Didn't want to go OT in the new thread.

Charles, is there an iTunes link for when you are not listening to music and there is no"Now Playing" window? Just in case I decide to buy music and you are not listening to any.

177 jvic  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:44:34am

re: #172 FurryOldGuyJeans

I live by the philosophy "You can kill me, but you can't eat me". A despot can kill me, all they will have is my dead body. But they will never take away my freedom of conscience.

That's a commendable philosophy, FOGJ. (no sarcasm intended)

For my part, I don't claim to have perfectly lived up to my principles, such as they are. The conservative mindset recognizes human beings as limited and fallible (a fact of life, not an excuse). That strikes me as more realistic than much of what I see from the left.

178 Athos  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:54:21am

re: #175 MacDuff

The major fear, in the immediate aftermath of WW2, was not the return of the Nazi's or fascists, but the efforts of the Soviet communists to expand their power far beyond their borders - not only Eastern Europe, but also remember that Greece fought for all practical purposes a civil war during this timeframe and France was constantly at risk of the communists gaining a plurality.

The US did place Western Europe under its military / nuclear umbrella. This did permit the Western European nations the ability to lessen their funding and investments towards their national defense and allocate these dollars towards the social and entitlement programs that their progressive socialistic parties (the primary counter to the out and out communists) preferred. The US did not encourage these viewpoints of these political parties to adopt politically correct / progressive positions and policies - or for the people of Western Europe to support them except that to the US these were obviously preferrable to communist parties in power.

There was a mindset change in Europe after WW2 and reflected the experiences coming from the carnage in that continent in the first half of the 20th century. That, in my opinion, is what set the table for the conditions today.

A lot of time has passed since 1945 - and time is kind to many extremists as memories diminish. The Euro today looks at their progressive entitlements and doesn't want to lose them, yet, they cannot afford them without immigrants to help fund them and do the work the Euro will not do today. Because of the PC / progressive mindset, they don't work on assimilating the immigrants. The immigrants remain separate and treated as 2nd class citizens - so they act out for these reasons as well jihadist reasons. This increases the resentment in Europe. The nationalists and racists on the hard right seek to exploit the fear and hate towards the immigrants to gain power and respectability. This is why the comparisons with the late '20s and 30's are so appropriate. We cannot enable these fascists no matter how much we oppose jihadists.

179 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:56:10am

re: #174 neverquit

Much of the world does not use a toothbrush on a regular basis. What makes you think they watch Bollywood?

Yet you can find American (read Western) movies being shown on a regular basis in the same hovels.

At one time to be a cultured person meant speaking French no matter what one's native language was. Or speaking and reading German if one wanted to be fluent in science. And currently English is a dominant force in commerce worldwide.

180 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:59:30am

re: #177 jvic

That's a commendable philosophy, FOGJ. (no sarcasm intended)

For my part, I don't claim to have perfectly lived up to my principles, such as they are. The conservative mindset recognizes human beings as limited and fallible (a fact of life, not an excuse). That strikes me as more realistic than much of what I see from the left.

I said I live by it, I never said I was even close to achieving it. I am one of the most flawed and fallible people around.

I rail against Leftism for the simple fact that as a whole their political philosophy is to attempt to deny me the freedom of conscience I refuse to surrender. I am lazy, I don't like having to actually do something about it if I had any say. ;)

181 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:01:48pm

Of Johnson and Wilders

Charles is wrong on Geert Wilders. There I said it. I am troubled by Wilders desire to ban the Koran (I believe in banning parties not books) but if Mein Kampf can be banned under Dutch law, there is no reason that another book that that calls for bigotry and domination of the other, cannot join Hitler's work on the same shelf.

Wilders not a perfect vessel, but he is fundamentally a democrat- women's and gay rights, support of Israel are core beliefs of his and his background is entirely from the Dutch tradition of tolerance and democracy. I would rather he did not advocate banning the Koran but he also has not aligned himself with Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the true far-right of Europe. True fascists are dead set on permanent power for their party. Having studied and watched the Geert Wilders for the last five years, I do not see a totalitarian Leader madly bent on power for himself.

Will Geert Wilders ban further immigration the Netherlands? Yes. Will he stop the welfare subsidy of the Islamist takeover of the Netherlands? Yes. Will he set up death camps and use industrial methods to kill Muslims, no. Current crime statistics show Dutch cities, like many other European centers, suffering violent crime waves that threaten their very way of life. The Dutch are not ones breaking the social contract, it is the Islamist immigrants. For a small country only 20% larger than Massachusetts, absorbing almost one million new immigrants is social society challenge that would swamp most small nations. This social experiment has failed: Rotterdam is occupied territory, Amsterdam is sinking fast and other Dutch cities are fast following down the drain. They have hit the breaking point and want the left's mad experiment that threatens their wellbeing and way of life to end- it is not fascist to stop this process, it is sanity.

Any fair analysis of Geert Wilders words shows he does not use the language Ahmadinejad (now there is a fascist!) to describe Muslims but his criticism of the most extremist aspects of Islam is dead on and Islamofascists, who are the real fascists, the real enemy. Wilders wants to defend the existence of a Ductch people. Everything he has said calls for using the rule of law to do so.

If I thought Wilders was a true fascist, I would not support him. I do not subscribe to the notion of taking the lesser fascist to fight the bigger ones. Wilders is simply not a true fascist. Bruce Bawer, the gay canary of Europe's coal mine, has said: "there is no one I trust more than Geert Wilders."

If Wilders were fascist, wouldn't he want to party with the rest of the Eurofascists at the Pro Koln Heil Festival? Oddly, he unlike, Robert Spencer, was never listed as a speaker.

If Wilders were the last clear chance for Europe and a fascist, I would not be writing these words. Again, I do not agree with his calls to ban the Koran but I do know this, for more than four years this man has lived under guard for daring to challenge the Islamists and Leftist establishments that have done nothing to defend Europe from collapsing into a giant Gaza with architecture. Every day his life has been under threat. He has stood bravely and not flinched.

I disagree with Charles; I trust Geert Wilders.

182 Athos  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:02:15pm

re: #179 FurryOldGuyJeans

Very true. One of the leading reasons for complaints against the US is the influence of its culture into other cultures. In order to protect their own culture, many attack and demonize the US / US culture which drives the perceptions (and reality) of anti-Americanism.

This is one of the things that gets overlooked - no matter what this country does, the fact that the values and culture are exported and envied / hated, these fuel the viewpoint towards the US. No matter what is done by us, that viewpoint is being defined and set in reaction to our culture.

183 neverquit  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:03:37pm

re: #179 FurryOldGuyJeans

hmm....well, i don't think that is the case in most of the rice paddies and tea fields. jmo.

184 hellosnackbar  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:08:20pm

re#84 Walter L Newton.
That's a bit of a pickle.

185 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:17:48pm

re: #181 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

You didn't click through and read my #29, did you?

186 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:19:21pm

re: #181 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I would rather he did not advocate banning the Koran but he also has not aligned himself with Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the true far-right of Europe.

You're wrong.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

187 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:23:16pm

And by the way, I can't speak for Bruce Bawer, but I've been communicating with him quite a bit through email, and enlisting him in the pro-Wilders camp is premature.

You seem to have no problem with praising a man who explicitly wants to strip basic rights away from a whole group of people, which is highly disappointing.

188 Bagua  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:40:33pm

Great post Charles, thank you for calling attention to this development.

189 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:48:59pm

The other parties in Britain have ceded to the BNP a monopoly on controlling immigration and keeping a lid on crime. This sort of default by the powers that be is what got us Nixon. Back when Kennedy was president, (and before that, running for office), Democrats stood for strong national defense, anti-communism, and the rule of law. Guys like Nixon had no chance. The BNP wouldn't be getting past single digits if they hadn't been ceded political terrain that used to be centrist in Britain.

190 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:15:30pm

re: #189 lostlakehiker

The other parties in Britain have ceded to the BNP a monopoly on controlling immigration and keeping a lid on crime.

No they bloody haven't. That's what the BNP would like us to believe, and you can believe if you wish, but nobody in Britain is buying that crap.

We may be screaming at the powers that be to sort this mess out, but we're certainly not pushing for the scum of the BNP to be handed the power to do so.

191 infidel4ever  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:25:05pm

Charles,

This morning in the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf

In the radio programme Tros Kamerbreed Barry Madlener, who heads the PVV list for the European elections, said today that his party is mulling the idea of functioning as an independent party in the European parliament, without joining a faction. He made it clear that the PVV will not throw in its lot with the extreme rightist parties. In saying this he excludes structural cooperation with Vlaams Belang. Madlener is hoping for 2 or 3 seats.

www.telegraaf.nl...]>PVV loopt niet warm voor EP-fractie

(PVV not sold on EP faction)

192 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:26:03pm

re: #181 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

You really need to address more than just Wilders' call to ban the Koran, because in his speech in Florida, he very explicitly said that he wanted to take away the freedom of religion from Muslims. The man wants to criminalize Islam, by redefining it so that it's not considered a religion.

Will he set up death camps and use industrial methods to kill Muslims, no.

And yet, he does want to expel all Muslim "criminals" from the Netherlands -- again, very explicitly. And at the same time, he wants to make Islam itself illegal, by taking away its status as a religion, and taking away the freedom of religion from Muslims. (Those are very close to his exact words, by the way.)

If you criminalize Islam itself, aren't you then saying that all people who choose the religion of Islam would be considered criminals? The answer is yes, of course you are. And then the call for expelling Muslim "criminals" takes on a much darker meaning, because at that point all Muslims would be criminals.

And there is simply no way to carry out mass deportations on that kind of scale without mass violence. People will resist, and not just Muslims. Wilders may not be saying anything about death camps, but we've seen where this kind of rhetoric leads, and it's dangerously naive to simply go along with it, and trust that nobody will be harmed.

193 Aye Pod  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:27:52pm

re: #190 Wishbone

Yep - the vast majority of people in Britain have nothing but contempt for the BNP. Still, we need to keep an eye on them all the same.

194 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:30:14pm

re: #192 Charles

And then there's the slippery slope issue of other religions then being in a position to also be declared not a religion.

195 Bagua  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:02:23pm

re: #193 Jimmah

I think we have to define "vast majority" here, should the BNP win 6 seats that would be 8% of the British MEPs, also note that they are coming in second or third in other votes.

6 is probably a high estimate, but even 1 will shake things up considerably.

196 Bagua  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:06:28pm

re: #157 Spiritualized

So they'll be six more Jew-hating degenerates at the EU?

No, wait, the amount will stay the same.

Part of the BNP rebranding attempt, (which as Charles points out is well advanced among such parties in European countries as well) is to deny any connections to anti-Semitism.

197 FrumiousFalafel  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:07:12pm

re: #146 Charles

Charles,
I wholly agree with your principled stance against any and all parties in Europe that have even the faintest whiff of Nazism still in their ranks / roots (no matter how many iterations they may have gone through in an attempt to supposedly "purge" themselves of the out-and-out Goering-types) -- that song, for example that you posted 6 months back where some members of Vlaams Blok were at a picnic singing about having one last tryst with their Jewish Girlfriend before she becomes burned into "slag" was particularly stomach turning as most of my family met that fate).

See it / hear it here:
Virulently pro-Nazi and unremorsefully sick song sung by VB at picnic

So, let me say again, I support you especially regarding the endless barrage of LGF-obsessed petty nastiness you receive from our mostly "local" homegrown Islam-haters (GoV, Atlas Itches, Fjordman, et al.). And while I'm no great fan of Islam, these site clearly take Islamic-hate well over the line and do not attempt to make the important distinction (made by Daniel Pipes, among others) that we're against the radicalized Islamists, not moderate Muslims (although this latter group can be distressingly difficult to find). Further Pipes makes the strong point that there's nothing "genetic" in Muslims that stops their behaving in a more civilized manner. It's their culture (and unfortunately their ongoing anti-Semitic, anti-American education starting from a very early age). Finally, while this violent resurgence applies mainly to Muslims West of India (Persia, the Arabs, Turkey & E. Africa), Muslims globally do seem to be responding to this cultural surge.

Finally, as a Jew, I'm highly suspicious of these "newborn" Euro-parties that claim to have discovered their inner love of Israel. They are like snakes shedding their skins until they look just agreeable and smooth enough to their constituents in order to gain votes.

That being said though, why not adopt a strategy of allowing the dying Europeans to slug it out with their highly motivated Muslim immigrants who want to impose Sharia law in Europe and turn it into another Caliphate. In other words, why not just stay on the sidelines, since a fight between these two opposing forces in Europe has got to drain them of money, blood, and energy. And it would seem that this is a result we (right-thinking Americans) would want....no? (Although it would weaken all of Europe and open it up to conquest by the newly resurgent Russia -- for a very scary article on this see

I fully understand and admire your principled position, but what are your thoughts about simply letting these two cocks fight it out in Europe and the UK until they are both exhausted, bleeding, or one of them is declared "dead." Does this not serve our purposes? Understandably it's a Machiavellian strategy in essence and perhaps distasteful because of that. But I wouldn't mind hearing your response on simply notchoosing a side in the upcoming battle between modern Nazi-parties and Muslim Extremists.

Now if Muslim Moderates where out marching against their home-grown extremists, then I might be tempted to defend them more, but clearly this has not been the case -- there's strong evidence that "Moderates" are in fact closely in sync with their louder extremist neighbors on the issue of anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism -- together they've been responsible for a strong resurgence in both all throughout Europe (look at Swedish rape statistics as a corollary). And while I do think the BNP and Vlaams Blok will eventually return to their anti-Semitic roots, currently they are being careful not to do nasty things like attack Jews on the street, kidnap, torture them (see France) and commit other heinous acts (that Euro-Muslims have done).

Know that I always remain a strong supporter.

198 Bookworm  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:14:23pm

Charles:

One of the legacies of the Left is the degradation of language. Words no longer mean what they used to mean, but the change is often so gradual, we don't realize it. (That happens without politics, too, with the very old Bethlehem Hospital for the Insane in London morphing into the word "bedlam.")

Because the Left consciously controls language ("man caused disasters" anyone?), things can get confusing. The easiest example is the way in which Nazis are defined. As their full name establishes ("National SOCIALISTS"), the Nazis were a socialist (i.e., Leftist) political organization. Nowadays, however, they are routinely referred to on the Left as "rightist" so as to conflate them with the Left's political enemies. In fact, like the Left, they were statists. Unlike the average Lefty, however, they added to their garden-variety belief in state control a poisonous measure of racial hatred.

Linguistically, things are very confusing in Europe, where even the "rightist" political parties (say, the Tories) are to the Left of the American middle. Add to that the fact that, in Europe, there are both genuine neo-Nazis, who want to replicate the Nazis vision of racial purity, AND are concerned moderates who don't like the political control being ceded to multicultural pro-Islamists, and you've got word soup.

For that reason, I'd appreciate it if you could explain a little more what you mean by "far right." Technically, "far right," if we're measuring it against "far left," means less government, not more. After all, if Marxist-style Leftism is the party that seeks total government control, than its opposite -- "Rightism" -- must be veering into pure anarchy, without any government control at all. I know you don't mean that.

By "far right," then, are you saying the BNP party is racist, a la the Nazis or the KKK (and with visions of lynchings and ovens dancing in its political brain)? Or is it "racist" as the Left would define it, which means anyone who doesn't like Obama or is concerned about sharia? And where do all these "rightist" political organizations in Europe stand vis a vis government control? Are they individualist lynch mobs which race madness, or are they statists seeking to have government "purify" their land?

Given the abuse language undergoes daily, the way in which words are folded, spindled and mutilated in ways that take them in the opposite direction from their original meanings, it's entire possible that a lot of the intellectual fights on the conservative side arise because people THINK they mean the same thing, but they actually don't. As Dennis Prager says, "I prefer clarity to agreement," and as I've noted watching his show, clarity often brings agreement.

Any help you can bring here would be appreciated, because I loath the stench of truly racists politics (e.g., KKK and Adolf worship blended with a desire to have a strong government making these deadly dreams a reality). However, I do think there needs to be a political home for Europeans who are worried about the Islamification of their nations. And as long as governments in Europe hew Left (even those that are called right), I suspect that the governments and their media outlets are going to tar all anti-Sharia people with the same ugly "far Right" brush.

199 po8crg  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:15:57pm

A few warnings about this:

1. The Anti-Nazi League is a Communist front organisation, run by the Socialist Worker Party. It wasn't in the seventies when people like Peter Hain were in it, but when the NF collapsed in 1980-1, the SWP spent the eighties being the only people in the organisation and stealing all the money.

If you want a trustworthy, non-Communist, anti-racist organisation in the UK, Searchlight is the best you're likely to get. There are communists in Searchlight, but they're not in control.

2. Labour are notorious for trying to talk up the BNP in order to get disillusioned working-class traditionally Labour voters to turn out and vote. Sometimes it backfires and the BNP wins; but it works often enough that anything Labour say about the BNP should come with a huge pinch of salt.

As a Lib Dem, I'd say that the BNP have about a 50-50 chance at getting one MEP in the North West, which is supposed to be their best seat. I don't think it actually is their best seat - they will get one in London much more easily than in NW. I would guess at two or three MEPs as being the most likely number.

200 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:40:38pm

re: #198 Bookworm

Please look up the literature on the BNP. It's completely uncontroversial to call them a "far right" party. They regard themselves as right wing -- DEFINITELY not left wing.

And the word "Socialist" in "National Socialist" does not indicate a left-wing orientation, Marxist, socialist, or any other way. The Nazis were a right wing group in German politics; they started as a right wing group and coopted other German right wing parties, and all their alliances were with right wing parties. All of the serious historical works on Nazi Germany make this exceedingly clear.

There's a kind of revisionism going around these days that insists the Nazis and other far right wing organizations are actually left wing groups -- it's simply wrong.

201 Bookworm  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:41:12pm

Charles:

I forgot to add that I know you described the BNP as "extreme right white supremacist" (try saying that three times fast), but I'm still confused.

If you go the BNP's website, they don't advocate a Nazi or KKK style racial purification. Mostly, they seem to want to slow immigration (which has been pretty much open borders from Eastern European and Muslim countries since 1985 and onward), they want to take back political power England ceded to the EU, and they want to revitalize British culture, which is increasingly vanishing before the PC tsunami. Whether or not one agrees with this, it's not Naziism.

I'm also freely concede that I know nothing about the BNP other than how it defines itself on its web. With that definition, I can see where it could be a very attractive alternative for Brits who see their country committing social suicide before their eyes. If it is, however, a true neo-nazi organization, dedicated to taking over the government and starting racial purification a la the Nazis and the KKK, you are right that it is a despicable entity, and political power is a bad thing.

By the way, I'm not defending the BNP here. I clearly don't know enough about it one way or the other. I'm just looking for definitional clarity, because I find British (and European) political parties remarkably incoherent when compared to America's two party system.

202 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:42:14pm

re: #199 po8crg

A 50-50 chance of getting a seat in the NW with the NW 'region' being as huge as it is?

As a 'Lib-Dem' you should be worrying more about how to run our cities, 'cos it's patently obvious that your lot haven't a clue how to run a country.

And don't be taking the hump either. I've been happy to let Lib Dems run Liverpool ever since the days of that militant little fuck Hatton. My city, yes. My country?.....not a chance.

BNP are everybodys favourite whipping boy as to why people should vote for 'their' party. Just because they're right about the BNP doesn't necessarily follow that we should vote for whatever flavour of government opposes them.

Conservatives are the fave flavour at the moment; teh only worry being that their brand of conservatism is merely 'Labour Lite'.

203 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:47:16pm

re: #201 Bookworm

I'm also freely concede that I know nothing about the BNP other than how it defines itself on its web.

Then you very definitely need to educate yourself about them, before you write anything else. You can start here:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Their leader, Nick Griffin, is a notorious antisemite and a Holocaust denier.

I don't know why you think I might describe them as an "extreme right white supremacist" party if I didn't know enough to back it up.

204 unpaidbills  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:48:07pm

Funny how people can call the British Labour party a credible party, when its rank and file are made up from the ideology which has murdered millions in the former Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Vietnam and any other regime which sprang from Karl Marx's warped brain.

Hain is a South African "Ex"-Communist, who took part in a botched robbery in South Africa, and recently resigned from a disgraceful donations scandal.
Not only that he funds a private militia called Searchlight which openly supports the use of terror against anyone who stands up against immigration and Islam.

Go google the background of every Labour Party member, Neil Kinnock, John Reid (ex communist), Arthur Scargill, Tony Benn, George Galloway being ex Labour these are just a few.

And this is a non fringe party?

205 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:51:16pm

re: #201 Bookworm

I'm also freely concede that I know nothing about the BNP other than how it defines itself on its web. With that definition, I can see where it could be a very attractive alternative for Brits who see their country committing social suicide before their eyes.

Let me clear something up for you mate. It takes a very particular type of fuckwit to find the BNP 'Attractive'. We're not fucking stupid; we know where tha type of thinking leads; we lost a generation fighting against a bunch of bastards who started out thinking like that. We still remember their names and wear their medals come Remembrance Day.

There's fuck all attractive about shite like that to any straight thinking Brit.

206 wiffersnapper  Sat, May 2, 2009 3:16:41pm

The EU is as much a joke as the UN

207 Bagua  Sat, May 2, 2009 3:24:54pm

re: #206 wiffersnapper

A good point, many are being drawn to the BNP as a "protest vote" against the EU.

208 leereyno  Sat, May 2, 2009 3:55:39pm

The thing to remember is that in a Democracy, the people always get the government that they deserve.

The problem here is not the BNP. Groups like the BNP will always exist. The fact that this particular group is on the verge of national influence says nothing about the group itself and everything about the people who are likely to vote for it. It also says that a significant percentage of the public are so dissatisfied with Labour and the Tories that they are searching for something else.

Fringe political groups only gain power and influence when the mainstream political organizations succeed in alienating the public.

It is also not sufficient to simply describe the BNP as an extremist group. That in and of itself says nothing. The founding fathers were extremists. The BNP is comprised of racists and fascists. How extreme they are about being racists and fascists is another question. In fact I don't even know if I would describe the BNP as extremists. As far as fascist groups go, they're pretty tame, which is part of the problem. They're mild enough seeming that they're able to attract those votes that Labour and the Tories have pissed away.

I for one am not concerned about this. The reason is that this is how mainstream parties are kept honest. If it were not for fringe groups like the BNP waiting in the wings, then the egotistical mandarins who run the major parties would have nothing to lose from abusing the very people they claim to represent, which come to think of it is exactly what they've been doing.

The BNP is gaining in popularity not because the British people are turning into racist fascists, but because of the policies and ideas they are promoting that DO resonate with ordinary reasonable people. One of the other parties, most likely the Tories, will adopt these popular ideas as their own and the BNP will have nothing left to offer but racism and fascism, at which point it fade back into relative obscurity.

209 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 4:59:27pm

re: #208 leereyno

The thing to remember is that in a Democracy, the people always get the government that they deserve.

No they don't.........In our case, they'll just get the least screwed up government they're capable of voting for..... which , in this case, will probably be the Tories. Not exactly real Conservatives, but a far cry from the Labour lefties we've had to put up with for so long.


The problem here is not the BNP. Groups like the BNP will always exist. The fact that this particular group is on the verge of national influence says nothing about the group itself and everything about the people who are likely to vote for it. It also says that a significant percentage of the public are so dissatisfied with Labour and the Tories that they are searching for something else.

The problem there is that a sizeable proportion of the populace would have to be complete fucking idiots to vote for the BNP in order to express their dissatisfaction at the other parties, when there are much safer and much more morally agreeable alternatives. ie UKIP.

They're mild enough seeming that they're able to attract those votes that Labour and the Tories have pissed away.

No they're bloody not. Whatever votes the Tories and Labour 'Piss Away' become non-votes. In other words, the voter stays at home and doesn't bother, 'cos political apathy is the standard for the disillusioned electorate in Britain these days. It's shit....... but there it is.

I get where you're heading, but don't believe for one minute that the likes of the BNP are any sort of motivator in keeping the mainstream parties honest. They simply know how to exploit the political vacuum when the mainstream parties fuck it all up. The only problem (for them) is that we really don't like screwballs like them, so we get left with the only real conservative choice, which is the Tories.

The only problem (for us) is that the Conservatives are not the same brand of conservative as the ikes of Thatcher. We're merely stuck with a slightly-less-than-left-of-centre government as opposed to a completely leftie government.

What were talking here....... Is just varying degrees of "fucked"

210 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 5:13:14pm

re: #208 leereyno

In fact I don't even know if I would describe the BNP as extremists.

Wow. I don't believe you wrote that.

The fact is that the BNP is one of the most extreme Eurofascist groups on the scene. And that's saying something. Even Jean-Marie Le Pen of France's Front National tries to conceal his racism and Holocaust denial -- BNP leader Nick Griffin is a pure thug and outright Holocaust denier.

Seriously -- you need to rethink what you wrote here because it is WAY off base.

211 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 5:24:45pm

re: #204 unpaidbills

Not only that he funds a private militia called Searchlight which openly supports the use of terror against anyone who stands up against immigration and Islam.

Have any evidence for this rather over the top assertion?

212 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 5:28:30pm

re: #210 Charles

While I may disagree with leereyno on certain points Charles, I don't believe that was the point they were trying to make

In fact I don't even know if I would describe the BNP as extremists. As far as fascist groups go, they're pretty tame, which is part of the problem.

This speaks to me of the pseudo legitimacy that such groups portray in order to obtain legitimate votes.

213 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 5:38:49pm

re: #212 Wishbone

While I may disagree with leereyno on certain points Charles, I don't believe that was the point they were trying to make

This speaks to me of the pseudo legitimacy that such groups portray in order to obtain legitimate votes.

I agree -- like the other Eurofascists (especially Vlaams Belang) they're trying to clean up their public act. But the veneer is paper thin in the case of the BNP. It's a party of football yahoos and white supremacist thugs, led by an antisemitic Holocaust denier - as I'm sure you know.

214 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 6:09:32pm

re: #213 Charles

Actually, I'm going to disagree with your assessment there. There is no cleaning up of their public act: It was always a cesspit to begin with. There was never any ambiguity with the BNP insofar as the general British electorate were concerned; the 'paper thin veneer' was never a cover where the BNP are concerned. We know full well that they're a bunch of racist fucks and that's all there is to it.

One thing I will make a strong point of is this: Your description of 'Football Yahoos' is about as wide of the mark as it gets. There has been an immense amount of money, manpower and will over the last twenty years or so, pumped into making the game of football more respectable. If You look back you'll see that, before today, I've railed against the idea of the 'football hooligan' as conceived by various lizards along the way.

I tell you this: The followings of the various football clubs these days have a pride in knowing that their clubs are represented with honour and respect wherever they may travel and that whomsoever should visit their respective territories are accorded the same respect. There will always be those of us whose enmity and rivalry will be made apparent, but that will always be a matter best left to those of us who understand such.

Rest assured, however, that such enmities are regional and rival in nature. Never will they be racial. Never will we be a tool for the political machinations of those who would promote racial hatred.

'Kicking Racism Out Of Football'.......... That's our thing......... Watching the game and screaming ourselves hoarse.......... that's our thing........... Taking the piss out of the other crowd............ that's our thing.............. Maybe even banging our heads together once in a while........... that's our thing.

But letting a bunch of shite like the BNP take over our beautiful game in the name of racial nationalism?

Forget it

215 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 6:16:51pm

re: #214 Wishbone

OK, fine. You agree with me, but I'm totally wrong. Got it.

216 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 6:59:38pm

re: #215 Charles

No. I never said that at all. I'm disagreeing with your picture as concerns the British viewpoint, most certainly with the picture you paint of the quintessential and stereotypical 'Football Yahoo' or 'hooligan'

Yes, of course I agree with you that the BNP are a bunch of racist idiots, attempting to get elected on a white supremacy ticket. That's nothing new to we Brits. We had noticed.

However, you seem to have a strange notion that the BNP is somehow connected to football fans, which is very much wide of the mark. I point that out in fairness to the many football supporters like myself who don't deserve to be painted in such a light.

217 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, May 2, 2009 7:34:56pm

Response to links and responses

As I said he is not the perfect vessel.

Assuming he is just referring to immigrants convicted of crimes in the Netherlands, why can't they kick them out. It is grounds for losing your green card and visitor status in the US if you violate US law. If large numbers of immigrants reject the right of their host society's system of law to apply to them this is far less loyalty that the Japanese American exhibited in post Pearl Harbor USA. These people were loyal citizens and look how they were treated; what duty, beyond mere human decency does a nation owe to people actively attempting to overthrow and subvert society as a whole?

As for Vlaams Belang, he said he would consider working with them but not ally with them if they are involved with LePen. Well they are, let us see if he is true to his word. Does the fact he said he would look at it make mistrustful? Yes. Yet have we stated openly, Geert Wilders, steer clear of these elements or you lose us for good? No.

The Bruce Bawer quote I used is a direct quote.

The people at Vlaams Belang have no problem with Celtic Crosses, white power symbols and J.M. Le Pen. But Wilders does. Why go through the effort to draw limits if he is a true fascists. True fascists can partner with anyone to gain power.

It is a mistake to assume that Wilders' election means Soylent Green style mass deportations by force of arms. This draws every conclusion against Wilders. Let us not forget there already is mass violence in Europe. Blackburn, the North Paris banuels, Rotterdam and Malmo are occupied territories.

I don't want it to come to bloodshed any more than you do but the failure of Europe's mainstream parties to address unimpeded colonization and mass illegality has brought European society to its knees. I do not wish to see mass violence break out in Europe; tell me how the Netherlands reasserts control over its breakaway inner cities peacefully? Other than a massive show of force that causes the Islamists to back down or a change in the ideology of the Takfirists, it is quite predictable the coming crackdown on illegal parallel societies will lead to a violent backlash.

For five years, this man has slept under guard for our liberty, do we not owe him spelling out our concerns and demanding answers? Do we not at least owe him the courtesy of letting him know that our support is contingent on his walking the road of the righteous?

If Geert Wilders wants to be Churchill he has to do and say Churchill: he can have VB or us. That is for certain. BUt we must not push him away until he has been given a fair chance to clear the air and draw the right lines.

218 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 8:06:02pm

re: #217 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

If Geert Wilders wants to be Churchill he has to do and say Churchill: he can have VB or us. That is for certain. BUt we must not push him away until he has been given a fair chance to clear the air and draw the right lines.

That's pathetic. You want to make common cause with a person who very clearly said he wants to strip Muslims of their right to freedom of religion.

You've lost it, man. I don't know what happened to you. You used to make a lot of sense, but now you're willing to compromise the very principles that made America what it is.

219 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 8:20:30pm

re: #217 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I just read your comment for the second time, and I want nothing to do with the disgusting opinions you're expressing. Just go away.

220 Aye Pod  Sat, May 2, 2009 8:55:50pm

re: #216 Wishbone

I don't think it's so much that football supporters are connected to the BNP or that racists and hooligans are representative of football fans as a whole, I think that association on LGF (and elswhere) is based on the fact that BNP rallies tend to have the look and sound of a crowd of football hooligans. And as you'll know, football fans do have racist elements among them. I've seen too many crowds of football fans marching up the street or on buses screaming racial abuse, bigoted songs etc to admit of any denial of that.

221 hokiepride  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:10:47pm

Charles,
I applaud your tireless effort in bringing these scum to light. I thought Vlaams Belang was just a stricter version of the US Republican Party. However, their highly questionable alliances and acquaintances raises serious red flags on their intentions. The fact that many conservative bloggers are too ready to kiss Glenn Beck and Pam Geller's rings and accept Vlaams Belang is just scary.

Also, IMHO it almost seems that Europe can never adopt a sensible center-right libertarian philosophy based on American individualism. They either swing to the extreme left with over the top multiculturalism or they swing to the far right.

222 funky chicken  Sat, May 2, 2009 10:13:05pm

Prayers and enemas will protect you from the swine flu, according to the HuffyPoo? LOL

safe link to Discover mag:
[Link: blogs.discovermagazine.com...]

223 halldor  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:49:24pm

re: #221 hokiepride

it almost seems that Europe can never adopt a sensible center-right libertarian philosophy based on American individualism. They either swing to the extreme left with over the top multiculturalism or they swing to the far right.

I think that's true. It's certainly true of most of Western Europe. It's also overwhelmingly true of Russia, which in many ways holds the keys to Europe's future (energy, military power, geo-strategic balance).

It never used to be true of Britain, which was the home of parliamentary democracy and produced figures of the stature of Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. But with the seemingly unstoppable rise of pan-Europeanism, Britain has lost its ability to take the libertarian path, and is caught like the rest of Europe between the Islamist threat on the one hand, and the threat of fascism on the other.

224 leereyno  Sun, May 3, 2009 1:58:10am

re: #210 Charles

Wow. I don't believe you wrote that.

The fact is that the BNP is one of the most extreme Eurofascist groups on the scene. And that's saying something. Even Jean-Marie Le Pen of France's Front National tries to conceal his racism and Holocaust denial -- BNP leader Nick Griffin is a pure thug and outright Holocaust denier.

Seriously -- you need to rethink what you wrote here because it is WAY off base.

I must admit that my knowledge of them comes primarily from my ex-wife who is British. I'd literally never heard of them before I met my ex, but then I was only vaguely aware of the mainstream parties in the UK anyway.

My ex doesn't like the BNP one bit. She told me they were Nazis and I thought that must be an exaggeration since they seemed to have a following. Here in the US David Duke is a walking punchline, and so I found it strange that those of his ilk could have political capital in the UK. A casual search for information on them lead me to believe that their reputation was the result of the leftists who run things over there labeling a (somewhat nutty) libertarian group as Nazis. This was back in 2004. I know better now.

My ex detests this group, but some people in her family are supporters. Her relatives are not Nazi's either, just normal people that agree with the PUBLIC platform of the BNP, and who distrust the Tories and Labour immensely. She's from Stoke-on-Trent, an extremely blue collar area of the UK which not long ago was completely dominated by the Labour party. Voting for and supporting Labour was almost religious catechism. Today that is no longer the case.

While I was aware that they were fascists and racists, my perception of them was that they were a mild example of them. But if they're more out-there than the other fascist groups in Europe, then they are indeed extremists.

That is not the face that they are presenting to the people who are now supporting them however. They are doing everything they can to distance themselves from the perception that they are Fascists and racists, at least when certain people are listening. In private they probably goose-step with the best of them.

The main thing that my ex's relatives like about the BNP seems to be their anti-PC stance. In the UK, social decay has reached the point that the old adage that everyone is equal but that some are more equal than others isn't an exaggeration. Just imagine a nation in which Gramscianism pervades the culture and the policies of the state and that is pretty much how things are in the UK, or at least how many people perceive things to be.

I for one am glad that I don't live there. Used to be a great country, but it has destroyed itself from within, eaten away by the cancer of leftist ideologies, of which fascism is but one.

But even so, my original point still stands that people are voting for them not because they approve of fascism or racism, but because the party is addressing political realities that the mainstream parties are not. As soon as the Tories adopt the popular ideas of the BNP (which may be only tangentially related to the real goals or nature of the party), then the BNP will once again fade away into relative obscurity.

225 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:45:06am

re: #224 leereyno

I for one am glad that I don't live there. Used to be a great country, but it has destroyed itself from within, eaten away by the cancer of leftist ideologies, of which fascism is but one.

No matter how mnay times you repeat this self-serving lie, you cannot bend political and historical reality enough to render it true.

Fascism is quite unlike communism. Communism appeals to a supposed universal materiality of humanity and human labor; fascism appeals to purported specific instances of sociocultural geist or will, tied to particular geographies and ethnicities. This is why communism is internationalist while fascism is nationalistic, and why communism does not in theory racially or ethnically discriminate, while racial and ethnic discrimination is built into the very theoretical fabric of fascism.

226 queequeeg  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:02:51am

Another 'revisionist' the eurosceptic, libertarian leaning ex conservative cabinet minister John Redwood on the use of 'Right Wing' in UK political discourse.

Any analyst on the media who wishes to capture the cross currents and undercurrents of UK politics should understand this, and must conclude that calling someone “right wing” no longer tells the audience anything worthwhile about their position. When a term adopted from a different century and a different country is used so widely as a term of abuse, it ends up meaning nothing. As the above shows, no Conservative can possibly believe all the things the democratic right are said to believe, as the freedom loving and the authoritarian strands are in tension with one another. All democratic Conservatives are united in hating racism, communism and fascism.

And here's political compass' assesment of the BNP relative to other UK parties. As you can see, they have leftist economics and are highly authoritarian hangers and floggers. I guess 'racist asshats' goes in another dimension.

227 halldor  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:58:41am

re: #224 leereyno

leftist ideologies, of which fascism is but one.

It would probably be more correct to characterize fascism as an ideology that borrows both from the extreme left (class hatred and socialist economics) and from the extreme right (race hatred and ultra-nationalism).

228 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:09:31am

re: #227 halldor

It would probably be more correct to characterize fascism as an ideology that borrows both from the extreme left (class hatred and socialist economics) and from the extreme right (race hatred and ultra-nationalism).

I disagree that fascism incorporates socialist economics. It may look like that on the surface, because fascists want the state to control the means of production, but in practice (e.g., Nazi Germany) the result was that wealth was concentrated in the hands of a very few powerful industrialists, bankers, etc. And that's the exact opposite of socialism, which strives to erase class distinctions and level the economic playing field.

229 halldor  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:39:10am

re: #228 Charles
I guess that it's possible to argue about these definitions (fascism, socialism) for a long time. Talking of practice: if you look at the history of the Soviet Union, you find that the wealth of the great "socialist republic" was concentrated in the hands of a very few people indeed - mostly party bosses, nomenklatura and military/industrial elite. And the erasing of class distinctions in Russia and Ukraine during the 1920s and 30s involved a large-scale imprisonment and massacre of civilians that didn't differ very much in its final results from the racial "solutions" later practiced by the Nazis. There's not much doubt that at least some of the practices of Nazism were learned from those of Bolshevism and, later, Stalinism.

I would still contend that modern fascism - in its contemporary national socialist ("red-brown") form - is a hybrid born of left wing and right wing political tendencies. It can be clearly seen in Russia today, where it is one of the prevailing ideologies.

230 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 12:38:01pm

re: #229 halldor

I guess that it's possible to argue about these definitions (fascism, socialism) for a long time. Talking of practice: if you look at the history of the Soviet Union, you find that the wealth of the great "socialist republic" was concentrated in the hands of a very few people indeed - mostly party bosses, nomenklatura and military/industrial elite. And the erasing of class distinctions in Russia and Ukraine during the 1920s and 30s involved a large-scale imprisonment and massacre of civilians that didn't differ very much in its final results from the racial "solutions" later practiced by the Nazis. There's not much doubt that at least some of the practices of Nazism were learned from those of Bolshevism and, later, Stalinism.

I would still contend that modern fascism - in its contemporary national socialist ("red-brown") form - is a hybrid born of left wing and right wing political tendencies. It can be clearly seen in Russia today, where it is one of the prevailing ideologies.

Umm...that was the 'dictatorship of the proletariat', a supposedly transitional phase on the way to pure communism, which in theory, according to Karl Marx and Frederich Engels, was supposed to eventually 'wither away', but which in practice never did.

Oh yeah; and unlike in Nazi Germany, where Jews and Gypsies were singled out for extermination, the millions massacred in the Stalinist Soviet Union were not murdered because they were members of any particular race or ethnic group, any more than were the millions murdered under Maoist China or the Khmer Rouge regime of Pol Pot.

If you wanna look at the original template for 20th century genocide, you have to go back to what the Turks did to the Armenians in 1915-1917, begun before either Nazi Germany or any Communist country existed:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

231 leereyno  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:09:49pm

re: #225 Salamantis

No matter how mnay times you repeat this self-serving lie, you cannot bend political and historical reality enough to render it true.

Fascism is quite unlike communism. Communism appeals to a supposed universal materiality of humanity and human labor; fascism appeals to purported specific instances of sociocultural geist or will, tied to particular geographies and ethnicities. This is why communism is internationalist while fascism is nationalistic, and why communism does not in theory racially or ethnically discriminate, while racial and ethnic discrimination is built into the very theoretical fabric of fascism.

You spend an awful lot of time saying things that are obvious to anyone who understands these two brands of sophistry and evil. How does anything you said indicate that Fascism is not a leftist ideology?

Communists define their enemies based upon their juvenile interpretation of class. Fascists define their enemies based upon their even more juvenile interpretations biology and ethnicity.

Both groups will come in the night and haul you off to a death camp. Fascists governments and communists governments are both Cleptocracies, organized crime outfits that have captured the reins of government through brutality and ruthlessness.

The only difference between these two groups are the excuses that each uses to justify the tyranny that they impose upon their fellow man. Communists use class resentments to create the Other that must be destroyed, while Fascists use racial and ethnic resentments.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The fact that one claims to be international in scope, while the other is nationalistic, is a distinction without a difference.

232 leereyno  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:17:27pm

re: #228 Charles

I disagree that fascism incorporates socialist economics. It may look like that on the surface, because fascists want the state to control the means of production, but in practice (e.g., Nazi Germany) the result was that wealth was concentrated in the hands of a very few powerful industrialists, bankers, etc. And that's the exact opposite of socialism, which strives to erase class distinctions and level the economic playing field.

Comparing the outcome of National Socalism with the INTENT of International Socialism is comparing apples and oranges.

The result of each is the same.

In the Soviet Union, wealth and power were concentrated in the hands of the party elites. In Nazi Germany, wealth and power were also concentrated in the hands of the party elites, many of whom happened to be industrialists and other captians of business who were smart enough to know which way the wind was blowing and cozy up to the Nazis. It is easy to find fault with them now in retrospect, but at the time their actions were simply a case of rational self interest.

233 halldor  Sun, May 3, 2009 11:36:01pm

re: #230 Salamantis

unlike in Nazi Germany, where Jews and Gypsies were singled out for extermination, the millions massacred in the Stalinist Soviet Union were not murdered because they were members of any particular race or ethnic group

During the period 1941-1949 alone, ethnic groups totalling an estimated 3.3 million people were deported by Stalin to Siberia and the Central Asian republics. Around 43% of these deportees died as a result of disease and malnutrition. The figure for the period 1939-1953 is much higher. Some examples of deported ethnic groups:

Poles (1939-1941 and 1944-1945)
Romanians (1941 and 1944-1953)
Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians (1941 and 1945-1949)
Volga Germans (1941)
Chechens, Ingush (1944)

See: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

234 leereyno  Mon, May 4, 2009 8:39:25am

Something else occurred to me this morning. Lets say that I'm a Moor and I'm sitting in Spain. I'm looking out across the continent of Europe and considering France and England. What would I see? Well both have a king. Both are populated by smelly illiterate Christians. Both pay homage to Rome.

In short, the similarities would far outweigh the differences. The French and the English on the other hand, would declare themselves to be very different from each other and would take offense at the idea that they were essentially the same. Tell an Englishman and a Scot that they are the same and the reaction will be even more violent.

When two groups are at odds, and the differences between them are very small, then the members of each group will seize upon whatever minor distinctions there are in order to define themselves as opposites. This is standard ingroup/outgroup behavior.

So when someone gets upset when Communism and Fascism are placed together ideologically, what they are really saying is that they are either a Fascist or a Communist, usually the latter.

Both of these ideologies are deeply evil. Both are founded, in part, on the idea that the evils of the world are due to the existence of undesirable groups of people who must be killed. Fascism tends to define these groups by ethnicity or nationality, while Communism tends to define them economically, except of course when they don't - just ask the Ukrainians and the Jews. Fascist states and communist states are both totalitarian dictatorships in which the party elites are indistinguishable from sociopathic mafiosos and the common people are made to suffer, starve, and are randomly chosen to be hauled off to death camps at the whim of apparatchiks.

The only way in which these two differ is in the propaganda used to justify the identical crimes that each commits. Judging an evil regime that is inspired by an evil ideology based on its propaganda is the very definition of what it means to be a useful idiot.

235 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:35:17am

re: #231 leereyno

You spend an awful lot of time saying things that are obvious to anyone who understands these two brands of sophistry and evil. How does anything you said indicate that Fascism is not a leftist ideology?

Communists define their enemies based upon their juvenile interpretation of class. Fascists define their enemies based upon their even more juvenile interpretations biology and ethnicity.

Both groups will come in the night and haul you off to a death camp. Fascists governments and communists governments are both Cleptocracies, organized crime outfits that have captured the reins of government through brutality and ruthlessness.

The only difference between these two groups are the excuses that each uses to justify the tyranny that they impose upon their fellow man. Communists use class resentments to create the Other that must be destroyed, while Fascists use racial and ethnic resentments.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The fact that one claims to be international in scope, while the other is nationalistic, is a distinction without a difference.

Nope; national vs. international is a distinction WITH a difference; a difference rooted in their differing focuses - race vs. class. Also, in communism, the state owns the factories and land; in fascism, they are owned by a well-connected oligarchy. These are defining left-right political distinctions, dating all the way back to Hegel in the 18th century

All totalitarianisms are not the same, beyond being totalitarian.

236 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:38:32am

re: #232 leereyno

Comparing the outcome of National Socalism with the INTENT of International Socialism is comparing apples and oranges.

The result of each is the same.

In the Soviet Union, wealth and power were concentrated in the hands of the party elites. In Nazi Germany, wealth and power were also concentrated in the hands of the party elites, many of whom happened to be industrialists and other captians of business who were smart enough to know which way the wind was blowing and cozy up to the Nazis. It is easy to find fault with them now in retrospect, but at the time their actions were simply a case of rational self interest.

Of course when a commissar retired, he couldn't take the property (factories, land) with him; it remained with the state. The oligarchs didn't have that problem, as long as they made and grew what the state needed (and they were financially well compensated for it).

237 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:47:18am

re: #234 leereyno

Something else occurred to me this morning. Lets say that I'm a Moor and I'm sitting in Spain. I'm looking out across the continent of Europe and considering France and England. What would I see? Well both have a king. Both are populated by smelly illiterate Christians. Both pay homage to Rome.

In short, the similarities would far outweigh the differences. The French and the English on the other hand, would declare themselves to be very different from each other and would take offense at the idea that they were essentially the same. Tell an Englishman and a Scot that they are the same and the reaction will be even more violent.

When two groups are at odds, and the differences between them are very small, then the members of each group will seize upon whatever minor distinctions there are in order to define themselves as opposites. This is standard ingroup/outgroup behavior.

So when someone gets upset when Communism and Fascism are placed together ideologically, what they are really saying is that they are either a Fascist or a Communist, usually the latter.

Both of these ideologies are deeply evil. Both are founded, in part, on the idea that the evils of the world are due to the existence of undesirable groups of people who must be killed. Fascism tends to define these groups by ethnicity or nationality, while Communism tends to define them economically, except of course when they don't - just ask the Ukrainians and the Jews. Fascist states and communist states are both totalitarian dictatorships in which the party elites are indistinguishable from sociopathic mafiosos and the common people are made to suffer, starve, and are randomly chosen to be hauled off to death camps at the whim of apparatchiks.

The only way in which these two differ is in the propaganda used to justify the identical crimes that each commits. Judging an evil regime that is inspired by an evil ideology based on its propaganda is the very definition of what it means to be a useful idiot.

Communism and fascism were vastly different kinds of totalitarianisms in several fundamental respects. Based upon purifying race vs. based upon dissolving class. National vs. international. Private industry vs. state industry. These seminally defining and bifurcating distinctions you repeatedly dismiss, deny, belittle or ignore.

In your case, it sounds like you wanna proudly proclaim yourself to be a right-winger, without having to deal with the stigma of fascism. So you try your dead-level damnedest to sluff it off on the Left where it does not belong, for self-serving reasons.

238 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:51:24am

re: #233 halldor

During the period 1941-1949 alone, ethnic groups totalling an estimated 3.3 million people were deported by Stalin to Siberia and the Central Asian republics. Around 43% of these deportees died as a result of disease and malnutrition. The figure for the period 1939-1953 is much higher. Some examples of deported ethnic groups:

Poles (1939-1941 and 1944-1945)
Romanians (1941 and 1944-1953)
Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians (1941 and 1945-1949)
Volga Germans (1941)
Chechens, Ingush (1944)

See: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But, beyond language differences, how ethnically different from Russians were they? Certainly nothing like as different as Gypsies and Jews.

239 halldor  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:09:53am

re: #238 Salamantis

But, beyond language differences, how ethnically different from Russians were they? Certainly nothing like as different as Gypsies and Jews.

Apart from the Poles - totally different.

But I'm not sure it really matters?

240 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:43:50pm

re: #239 halldor

Apart from the Poles - totally different.

But I'm not sure it really matters?

Yeah; they weren't being deported due to their ethnicity, but so that Stalin could control their lands. He also shipped Russians in.

241 halldor  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:56:08am

re: #240 Salamantis

Yeah; they weren't being deported due to their ethnicity, but so that Stalin could control their lands. He also shipped Russians in.

I think it's a moot question. One of Stalin's greatest fears was the possible national secession of minority ethnic groups - and those groups (particularly Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Chechens and Ingush) were considered by him to be inherently unreliable on ethnic and national grounds (in Russian the two concepts are more or less interchangeable) - that's why the Russians were shipped in, with the ultimate aim of replacing the indigenous inhabitants. So there was a strong ethnic, not only territorial, base and bias to Stalin's "resettlement" policy.

Ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide are very closely related.

242 Salamantis  Tue, May 5, 2009 2:20:28pm

re: #241 halldor

I think it's a moot question. One of Stalin's greatest fears was the possible national secession of minority ethnic groups - and those groups (particularly Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Chechens and Ingush) were considered by him to be inherently unreliable on ethnic and national grounds (in Russian the two concepts are more or less interchangeable) - that's why the Russians were shipped in, with the ultimate aim of replacing the indigenous inhabitants. So there was a strong ethnic, not only territorial, base and bias to Stalin's "resettlement" policy.

Ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide are very closely related.

Stalin wanted people inhabiting those lands to have loyalties to Mother Russia rather than elsewhere, so he moved some in, and removed some who didn't. But he never disputed their full personhood. It wasn't a matter of considering them to be intrinsically, inherently subhuman, like the Nazis did the Gypsies and the Jews.

243 halldor  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:52:38pm

re: #242 Salamantis

Stalin wanted people inhabiting those lands to have loyalties to Mother Russia rather than elsewhere, so he moved some in, and removed some who didn't. But he never disputed their full personhood. It wasn't a matter of considering them to be intrinsically, inherently subhuman, like the Nazis did the Gypsies and the Jews.

Like I said, it's a moot point...

244 leereyno  Wed, May 6, 2009 8:22:42am

re: #237 Salamantis

Communism and fascism were vastly different kinds of totalitarianisms in several fundamental respects. Based upon purifying race vs. based upon dissolving class. National vs. international. Private industry vs. state industry. These seminally defining and bifurcating distinctions you repeatedly dismiss, deny, belittle or ignore.

In your case, it sounds like you wanna proudly proclaim yourself to be a right-winger, without having to deal with the stigma of fascism. So you try your dead-level damnedest to sluff it off on the Left where it does not belong, for self-serving reasons.

I am a libertarian. I have no affinity for Fascism, Communism, or any other ideology of evil. Neither do any of these things hold any stigma for me. I'm just as willing to accept that communism and fascism are both RIGHT-WING ideologies as I am that they are both LEFT-WING ideologies. It just so happens that so many communists define themselves as leftists, and so many self-avowed leftists are closet communists, that I always accepted communism as a leftist ideology. European fascists also defined themselves as leftists, but if communists can be wrong about being leftists, then so can fascists.

What I won't do is pretend that they are different simply because the excuses and propaganda used by one to justify its crimes vary in subtle ways from the excuses and propaganda used by the other to justify the very same crimes. Forgive me if I'm unwilling to play favorites with totalitarian prison states complete with secret police, death camps, and ethnic cleansing.

If you want to say that Fascism is right wing, fine. In that case, so is Communism.

245 Salamantis  Wed, May 6, 2009 9:42:28am

re: #244 leereyno

I am a libertarian. I have no affinity for Fascism, Communism, or any other ideology of evil. Neither do any of these things hold any stigma for me. I'm just as willing to accept that communism and fascism are both RIGHT-WING ideologies as I am that they are both LEFT-WING ideologies. It just so happens that so many communists define themselves as leftists, and so many self-avowed leftists are closet communists, that I always accepted communism as a leftist ideology. European fascists also defined themselves as leftists, but if communists can be wrong about being leftists, then so can fascists.

What I won't do is pretend that they are different simply because the excuses and propaganda used by one to justify its crimes vary in subtle ways from the excuses and propaganda used by the other to justify the very same crimes. Forgive me if I'm unwilling to play favorites with totalitarian prison states complete with secret police, death camps, and ethnic cleansing.

If you want to say that Fascism is right wing, fine. In that case, so is Communism.

Nope; the differences are not subtle; they are substantial. You look at the fact that they are both genocidal, and your curiosity ends right there; you don't care WHY they are both genocidal. Genocide is evil, and that's good enough for you. But in fact they are genocidal for quite substantially different reasons; racial purity vs. class leveling. And this difference also significantly affects who they choose to and not to kill, by affecting why.

The racial purity vs. class leveling difference also entails other consequences and ramifications; for instance, the racial purity fascists are tied to the soil upon which their tribal blood lives, and thus are nationalists, while the class leveling communists wish to communize the world, and 'free' all humanity from the 'yoke' of class differences, and thus are internationalists.


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